BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
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@ExSp33dB1rd
It might be worth mentioning that 'normal' i.e. 9 - 5 workers by and large leave home after 7.oo am and are back home before 7.oo pm ( I know that is a generalisation, but it covers a lot of the population ) so they aren't even away from home for even half a day of the five that they work, then they get another 2 days off at the weekend !! Maybe they are away from home a max. of 2.5 days a week ? I used to be criticised by my neighbours for 'always' being at home - and I rarely achieved even 50/50 time away to time at home spread over a lifetime, i.e I achieved some 3.5 days a week at ' home v. my neighbours who enjoyed 4.5 days at home with their family. ( and I could never plan to be home for Christmas Day, Birthdays etc. - I knew I had been after the event ! Bidline rostering helped change that of course )
Dear ex-Speedbird,
Whilst your one-person campaign about BA's pensionner travel arrangements has been amusing for some time, I really do think that you should stop it for now on pprune. Use your energy for it spmewhere else, please.
I, along with many customers, also have a "grudge" with BA. Once we had been gold card holders for a number of years, they promised us "Silver (cards) for life".
BA lied to us.
Their promises were as honest as a Government's promise - as transient as "No more boom and bust" or "Tough on Crime".
So having conned us as customers, and gained our business on a lie, we are upset.
However, we don't keep on going on about it on pprune. If we did, we would bore the other contributors to death, make the pprune experience much worse, and the mods would remove us.
So please stay as a contributor, but take the pension issues somewhere else.
Whilst your one-person campaign about BA's pensionner travel arrangements has been amusing for some time, I really do think that you should stop it for now on pprune. Use your energy for it spmewhere else, please.
I, along with many customers, also have a "grudge" with BA. Once we had been gold card holders for a number of years, they promised us "Silver (cards) for life".
BA lied to us.
Their promises were as honest as a Government's promise - as transient as "No more boom and bust" or "Tough on Crime".
So having conned us as customers, and gained our business on a lie, we are upset.
However, we don't keep on going on about it on pprune. If we did, we would bore the other contributors to death, make the pprune experience much worse, and the mods would remove us.
So please stay as a contributor, but take the pension issues somewhere else.
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MPN11
How do you know that BASSA has a record of ignoring existing agreements?
As to your three other questions. BA has repeatably ignored agreements. We only have to go back a few years to see another example. BA and BASSA signed a settlement agreement in 2007. Why do you think we were in another dispute with them a year later? Because BA failed to honor it! They have also in the past imposed other practices without negotiations like the W2W system (willing to work) when we had enough rostering issues with the 900 hour regulation.
BA keeps doing this with the purpose to undermine agreements. This answers your two first questions. Why not leave BA? Because I am used to this lifestyle and work with some really good people. It also keeps me out of the UK for almost two weeks every month!
Stelton
Do you think I earn £42.000 a year? Not according to my payslips!
Mariner9
I think it can be difficult to get the confidence back when you have had bad experiences in the past. It won't change overnight but BA to keep their word for once could be a beginning. By this I don't mean what they would do last year if we didn't reach an agreement with them.
I think you will find that most of these "militant" crew are wanting what's best for the company. Nobody wants to stand in BA's way for progress and grow as an airline.
How do you know that BASSA has a record of ignoring existing agreements?
As to your three other questions. BA has repeatably ignored agreements. We only have to go back a few years to see another example. BA and BASSA signed a settlement agreement in 2007. Why do you think we were in another dispute with them a year later? Because BA failed to honor it! They have also in the past imposed other practices without negotiations like the W2W system (willing to work) when we had enough rostering issues with the 900 hour regulation.
BA keeps doing this with the purpose to undermine agreements. This answers your two first questions. Why not leave BA? Because I am used to this lifestyle and work with some really good people. It also keeps me out of the UK for almost two weeks every month!
Stelton
Do you think I earn £42.000 a year? Not according to my payslips!
Mariner9
I think it can be difficult to get the confidence back when you have had bad experiences in the past. It won't change overnight but BA to keep their word for once could be a beginning. By this I don't mean what they would do last year if we didn't reach an agreement with them.
button44
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Miss M, if I recall you are on a part time contract so no you don't earn 42k but you could.
If I didn't trust my employer I couldn't work for them.
The important point here is how can BA move forward. It does seem that the two sides are still far apart.
If I didn't trust my employer I couldn't work for them.
The important point here is how can BA move forward. It does seem that the two sides are still far apart.
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I think you will find that most of these "militant" crew are wanting what's best for the company.
Nobody wants to stand in BA's way for progress and grow as an airline.
Everything else that has been lost by cabin crew has been a result of the continued losses while BASSA stuck their fingers in their ears and refused to negotiate. Had they accepted the need to voluntarily remove a single staff member in the first place, it would not have got to this point. This dispute could have been finished a year ago. Instead of which BASSA are now 'negotiating' a much worse deal, knowing that BA have them over a barrel.
Again, why do the BASSA LHR diehards think it is OK for LGW staff to work a little harder but point blank refuse to accept this themselves when financial circumstances made it an easy option (bearing in mind no-one was forced out of their job)?
As an independent observer in all of this, I can only surmise what most others think: That the ancient CSDs who populate BASSA are so used to putting their feet up in the office having grudgingly said a few hellos and filled out a few forms, that they resented having to go back to doing some real work - and were willing to use the threat of wielding a very easily led membership to strike, just to avoid it.
Incredibly selfish, and they have represented their membership extremely poorly as a result. The only thing I find hard to understand is why the membership have put up with it for so long, when the reality is that BA are aware of the need to keep their existing staff happy, and the only other thing they asked was that future crew be recruited on more modern and industry-standard terms.
I fear your "lack of trust" in the company is borne out of BASSA's tub thumping and hysteria - and I've seen it first hand with some BA CC friends of mine who refuse to accept there are two sides to the issues that caused this dispute, and I don't just mean "BASSA are protecting us and BA are trying to
us", which is churlish and naive at best.And thank you for coming back to the thread, even if some of us may vehemently disagree with some of what you say; your presence here adds a worthwile facet to the discussion.
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Welcome back MissM, it was a bit dull without you.
Any comments on the socialist worker report re: Derek Simpson? I see there's another unite 4 labour meeting tonight with him and Prezza.
Any comments on the socialist worker report re: Derek Simpson? I see there's another unite 4 labour meeting tonight with him and Prezza.
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Personally, I have to be rather cynical regarding this statement:
I've seen nothing out of BASSA in the last six weeks that any individual could interpret as being positive for BA. Quite the opposite.
As for the "trust" issue bandied about by every Cabin Crew member upset because their IA produced negative results for BASSA, hence negative results for their members, trust works both ways.
As a stockholder and customer do I "trust" BASSA to not obstruct any changes, no matter how minor, simply for the purpose of grandstanding? Absolutely not. Do I "trust" the militant cabin crew to behave like professionals and reasonable adults in the future after watching their behavior over the strike days and observing conduct such as developing a porn site to smear co-workers and BA with? That would be silly. Do I "trust" BASSA or militant cabin crew to not spread obvious misrepresentations for the purpose of negatively impacting their employer? No.
I was at the Grand National last saturday. There were five women at our table and to a person the lasting impression they came away with regarding the striking crew members was the vision of that drinking woman wearing the mens undergarment with Mr. Walsh's image on the seat. I had to remind my companions that the majority of Cabin Crew did not strike, in fact they did everything they could do keep the company flying and should not be smeared with the coarse behavior of others.
Is BASSA a group that I'm expecting great things out of in the future? Who would be so foolish. Thank goodness that the militants are in the minority and that BA has finally decided that they, and not BASSA, will run the airline.
..and as an aside, how can anyone allow themselves to be represented by a Union that will not even allow their members to vote on offers on the table? Does BASSA not "trust" their own members?
I think you will find that most of these "militant" crew are wanting what's best for the company. Nobody wants to stand in BA's way for progress and grow as an airline.
As for the "trust" issue bandied about by every Cabin Crew member upset because their IA produced negative results for BASSA, hence negative results for their members, trust works both ways.
As a stockholder and customer do I "trust" BASSA to not obstruct any changes, no matter how minor, simply for the purpose of grandstanding? Absolutely not. Do I "trust" the militant cabin crew to behave like professionals and reasonable adults in the future after watching their behavior over the strike days and observing conduct such as developing a porn site to smear co-workers and BA with? That would be silly. Do I "trust" BASSA or militant cabin crew to not spread obvious misrepresentations for the purpose of negatively impacting their employer? No.
I was at the Grand National last saturday. There were five women at our table and to a person the lasting impression they came away with regarding the striking crew members was the vision of that drinking woman wearing the mens undergarment with Mr. Walsh's image on the seat. I had to remind my companions that the majority of Cabin Crew did not strike, in fact they did everything they could do keep the company flying and should not be smeared with the coarse behavior of others.
Is BASSA a group that I'm expecting great things out of in the future? Who would be so foolish. Thank goodness that the militants are in the minority and that BA has finally decided that they, and not BASSA, will run the airline.
..and as an aside, how can anyone allow themselves to be represented by a Union that will not even allow their members to vote on offers on the table? Does BASSA not "trust" their own members?
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Hi, MissM ... still trucking on here and on the other thread, I see.
Because during the 'great snow' we were told by numerous people on the "other thread" that BASSA wouldn't agree to the Disruption Agreement being implemented.
I'll ignore some of your other questions, as you have a habit of ignoring those directed at you. However ...
Two weeks a month? I seem to recall you were a 25% worker ... I must spend some time searching your posts for that statement 
How do you know that BASSA has a record of ignoring existing agreements?
I'll ignore some of your other questions, as you have a habit of ignoring those directed at you. However ...
Why not leave BA? Because I am used to this lifestyle and work with some really good people. It also keeps me out of the UK for almost two weeks every month!
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From the Other Thread ...
I used to have my rail season ticket paid by my employer in Central London ... I was never offered another bunch of tickets for friends and family for travel all over the rail system 
Perhaps a bit of reality is creeping into discussions?
Hot rumour today regarding the settlement & staff travel - the strikers will be offered ST on one route (a "get you to work" route) and an unlimited number of tickets at the equivalent of ID50. Genius - congratulations BASSA, another own goal.
Perhaps a bit of reality is creeping into discussions?
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ChicoG
There are always people wanting the very best for themselves. BASSA definitely doesn't want the company to go bankrupt or get smaller. I won't deny that they sometimes have to loosen up their control of the company because it does occasionally get out of hand.
BASSA is used to running the company and afraid of losing their control and this is one of their issues with this dispute. As I said in a previous reply they have always been used to getting what they want and our previous CEO's have backed down at any sight of a possible dispute with the cabin crew.
Why has the membership kept up with it for so long? I keep coming back to faith towards management and this is an issue. Many prefer to trust their union rather than their management because we have been let down on many occasions. BA has also caused a lot of worry in the past two years with planning their Columbus project and many have been extremely worried and scared about what it would mean to us.
Diplome
I don't always agree with BASSA and definitely not some of the behavior during the strike when they were marching down Bath Road and shouting outside the Arora Hotel or wearing underwear with WW's face on the back but that was the nasty side of the strike.
MPN11
Apparently our chairman didn't think the snowstorm was serious enough for our disruption agreement to be implemented. I didn't agree with it and I think BASSA acted out of sulkiness.
A 25% worker? There is no such thing! I work 75% so maybe you had it confused that I get 25% of every month.
There are always people wanting the very best for themselves. BASSA definitely doesn't want the company to go bankrupt or get smaller. I won't deny that they sometimes have to loosen up their control of the company because it does occasionally get out of hand.
BASSA is used to running the company and afraid of losing their control and this is one of their issues with this dispute. As I said in a previous reply they have always been used to getting what they want and our previous CEO's have backed down at any sight of a possible dispute with the cabin crew.
Why has the membership kept up with it for so long? I keep coming back to faith towards management and this is an issue. Many prefer to trust their union rather than their management because we have been let down on many occasions. BA has also caused a lot of worry in the past two years with planning their Columbus project and many have been extremely worried and scared about what it would mean to us.
Diplome
I don't always agree with BASSA and definitely not some of the behavior during the strike when they were marching down Bath Road and shouting outside the Arora Hotel or wearing underwear with WW's face on the back but that was the nasty side of the strike.
MPN11
Apparently our chairman didn't think the snowstorm was serious enough for our disruption agreement to be implemented. I didn't agree with it and I think BASSA acted out of sulkiness.
A 25% worker? There is no such thing! I work 75% so maybe you had it confused that I get 25% of every month.
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MissM - apologies. I remembered you were part-time, but forgot the detail.
YOUR Chairman [BASSA?] didn't think the weather disruption was enough? Excuse me - do CC Union Reps decide on aircraft operations as well as hot towels?
You have summed up the issue in that one short paragraph - who runs BA?
That is the exact sort of problem that BASSA has created. Cabin Crew Union Reps are not, unless the World has started rotating in the opposite direction, experts on the realities of aircraft operations. Nor, having spent most of my working life in Ground Ops, would I tell what the FD crew can, or cannot do [well, I did, but that was my job], but at least I was closer to what they were interested in - SAFE Operations.
The Reps are seemingly experts on the various T&C, and the rest of the Company's problems are irrelevant.
YOUR Chairman [BASSA?] didn't think the weather disruption was enough? Excuse me - do CC Union Reps decide on aircraft operations as well as hot towels?
BASSA is used to running the company and afraid of losing their control and this is one of their issues with this dispute. As I said in a previous reply they have always been used to getting what they want and our previous CEO's have backed down at any sight of a possible dispute with the cabin crew.
That is the exact sort of problem that BASSA has created. Cabin Crew Union Reps are not, unless the World has started rotating in the opposite direction, experts on the realities of aircraft operations. Nor, having spent most of my working life in Ground Ops, would I tell what the FD crew can, or cannot do [well, I did, but that was my job
], but at least I was closer to what they were interested in - SAFE Operations.The Reps are seemingly experts on the various T&C, and the rest of the Company's problems are irrelevant.
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From the official thread Eddy (a Striker) chatted to Tiramisu (a non striker and founder of the PCC) in the crew room today. If the (some) strikers know some (at least one) of the founders of the PCC why don't they (the PCC) come out into the open and publicly give their side of the story?
Regards
Regards
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MPN11
Apparently our union didn't find the weather situation to be severe enough to allow BA to activate the disruption agreement. Big mistake because if BASSA would ever use that as an example of BA breaching our agreements it would go against them as it was one of the severest snowstorm ever in the UK in a very long time. BASSA would have to come up with a very good explanation as to why they refused.
The hot towel issue is a bit more complicated. After 9/11 they agreed to temporary measurements including crewing level reductions. Handing out some hot towels doesn't take very long and is not a problem but there were to be no increase of workload without negotiation. When BA wanted to introduce a hot towel service in WT+ BASSA felt they were trying to get away with another imposition because BA didn't ask them first.
Apparently our union didn't find the weather situation to be severe enough to allow BA to activate the disruption agreement. Big mistake because if BASSA would ever use that as an example of BA breaching our agreements it would go against them as it was one of the severest snowstorm ever in the UK in a very long time. BASSA would have to come up with a very good explanation as to why they refused.
The hot towel issue is a bit more complicated. After 9/11 they agreed to temporary measurements including crewing level reductions. Handing out some hot towels doesn't take very long and is not a problem but there were to be no increase of workload without negotiation. When BA wanted to introduce a hot towel service in WT+ BASSA felt they were trying to get away with another imposition because BA didn't ask them first.
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Miss M,
Thank you for staying and adding your views into the mix.
Regarding the hot towels in WT+ it beggers belief that crew (through BASSA) seem to have a veto on what ever the management ask. Can you imagine the pizza makers union getting het up if Pizza Express wanted to add a forth type of meat to the meat feast, or the amalgamated union of bar workers striking if All Bar One introduced Rose wine along side red and white. The union is there to represent crew and negotiate for crew NOT to micro-manage every decision. This is where the customs of the past have to change. If BA decide to change the service, for better or worse, it is none of the crews business. It is the crews business to get on and provide that service to the best of their ability, thats what they get paid for, just like any service job. If crew feel that the changes are not working I know you have means to feed that back and that at the end of the day the management will want the change to work so will react accordingly.
I know you already agree that BASSA were at fault over the disruption agreement this year but is it any surprise that BA feel free to ignore agreements when there union partner is so obstructive. BASSA have refused to implement the disruption agreement on numerous occasions prior to this year to the detriment of pax. If BASSA won't stick to agreements why should BA.
Lastly
how do you feel being one of Mr Simpsons "deluded" being led by "clowns"
Regards
Thank you for staying and adding your views into the mix.
Regarding the hot towels in WT+ it beggers belief that crew (through BASSA) seem to have a veto on what ever the management ask. Can you imagine the pizza makers union getting het up if Pizza Express wanted to add a forth type of meat to the meat feast, or the amalgamated union of bar workers striking if All Bar One introduced Rose wine along side red and white. The union is there to represent crew and negotiate for crew NOT to micro-manage every decision. This is where the customs of the past have to change. If BA decide to change the service, for better or worse, it is none of the crews business. It is the crews business to get on and provide that service to the best of their ability, thats what they get paid for, just like any service job. If crew feel that the changes are not working I know you have means to feed that back and that at the end of the day the management will want the change to work so will react accordingly.
I know you already agree that BASSA were at fault over the disruption agreement this year but is it any surprise that BA feel free to ignore agreements when there union partner is so obstructive. BASSA have refused to implement the disruption agreement on numerous occasions prior to this year to the detriment of pax. If BASSA won't stick to agreements why should BA.
Lastly
how do you feel being one of Mr Simpsons "deluded" being led by "clowns"Regards
Last edited by binsleepen; 14th Apr 2010 at 20:44.
The hot towel issue is a bit more complicated. After 9/11 they agreed to temporary measurements including crewing level reductions.
Handing out some hot towels doesn't take very long and is not a problem but there were to be no increase of workload without negotiation. When BA wanted to introduce a hot towel service in WT+ BASSA felt they were trying to get away with another imposition because BA didn't ask them first.
), why was this considered another imposition if the crew member reduction had been agreed with BASSA and was not therefore "imposed"?
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The hot towel issue is a bit more complicated. After 9/11 they agreed to temporary measurements including crewing level reductions. Handing out some hot towels doesn't take very long and is not a problem but there were to be no increase of workload without negotiation. When BA wanted to introduce a hot towel service in WT+ BASSA felt they were trying to get away with another imposition because BA didn't ask them first.
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Binsleepin
From the official thread Eddy (a Striker) chatted to Tiramisu (a non striker and founder of the PCC) in the crew room today. If the (some) strikers know some (at least one) of the founders of the PCC why don't they (the PCC) come out into the open and publicly give their side of the story?
If memory serves accurately, then the PCCC view on this dispute was to maintain a watching - although interested - brief. I think they felt - probably rightly so - that any attempt to become involved at the point when the PCCC began, would simply confuse an already confused situation. Given the propensity of many hardliners to become vindictive, it makes a lot of sense for those involved to remain incognito.
What is interesting is the fact that it is clear WW and BA management are perfectly well aware of PCCC stated intentions of being a proactive and non-disputational crew organisation. Perhaps if BASSA implodes - and after the alledged remarks by Derek Simpson that wouldn't surprise me - BA might drop word to the PCCC that they might find a sympathetic ear should they want to formalise their council and make an approach in the future? To be in place for the next issue to arise.
If I am wide of the mark, then my apologies.
Roger.
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binsleepen
The hot towel is an issue which I have never really supported and that's because of several reasons. Two of them that handing out a few towels doesn't take longer than two minutes and we do have enough time onboard to do it. We don't need a 16th crew member as BASSA was demanding. What's it all about? Temporary measurements agreed with the company years ago when it was said that there would be no increases onboard without talks.
How do I feel about being one of the deluded ones? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have been called worse things than that and as I have never cared about what other people think of me I can't say I'm too bothered with it!
Mariner9
From what I can remember it was said that there would be no added duties onto existing crewing levels without negotiations as long as these temporary measurements were in place.
LD12986
No, you are right and I have never agreed with the hot towel issue for the reasons above but because of the temporary measurements taken after 9/11 the union said there would be no added duties without their approval as it would be thought of as an imposition. That's where the problem lies.
The hot towel is an issue which I have never really supported and that's because of several reasons. Two of them that handing out a few towels doesn't take longer than two minutes and we do have enough time onboard to do it. We don't need a 16th crew member as BASSA was demanding. What's it all about? Temporary measurements agreed with the company years ago when it was said that there would be no increases onboard without talks.
How do I feel about being one of the deluded ones? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have been called worse things than that and as I have never cared about what other people think of me I can't say I'm too bothered with it!
Mariner9
From what I can remember it was said that there would be no added duties onto existing crewing levels without negotiations as long as these temporary measurements were in place.
LD12986
No, you are right and I have never agreed with the hot towel issue for the reasons above but because of the temporary measurements taken after 9/11 the union said there would be no added duties without their approval as it would be thought of as an imposition. That's where the problem lies.
Well that would make hot towels the first imposition not another imposition.
Based upon your posts, it would appear that BA have in all, imposed hot towels in WT+ (or tried to), and a slightly higher workload for a few CSD's.
Surely your stated fear of future imposition must stem from something more substantial than this?
Based upon your posts, it would appear that BA have in all, imposed hot towels in WT+ (or tried to), and a slightly higher workload for a few CSD's.
Surely your stated fear of future imposition must stem from something more substantial than this?