BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions

[Landroger]

Surrey Towers.

Oh well played Surrey Towers - what a blinder. Just how did you hope to improve the quality and interest of this thread by telling one of the key players to 'go away'?

Mariner9 wrote: "I think the majority (over 80% ) of posters on here wish you to continue to post on this thread Miss M. In my view, this is a constructive debate" I agree.

Fincastle84 wrote: "Please don't leave, your comments have brightened up what has become a rather mundane discussion.

Ignore Surrey Toweres; he/ she is in an intolerant minority." I agree.

R Knee wrote: "Surrey towers -

You do not win an argument by refusing to listen to any view but your own. Miss M should be allowed to present the case for BASSA." I agree.

Chicog wrote: "MissM not only offers an interesting insight into the mindset of cabin crew (whether you like it or not is a separate issue), but she can also listen to what pax think and perhaps carry the message back to her colleagues." I agree.

Others wrote in support of Miss M's presence in this thread. I agree.

If all you can contribute is to be rude and offer counterproductive suggestions, may we ask that you do it elsewhere? This thread and the main one are too delicately balanced for buffoonery.

If Surrey Towers does not offer an apology, may I offer Miss M a general apology? It should not have happened.

Roger.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Just renew my Gold Card please, which has expired, and I'll come back to BA and so I think will many others in the same circumstances. The Virgin red and the Dutch blue lounges are just not quite the same.

Do you think MissM (Oh welcome, welcome I make haste to add) could be Miss Malone of apparent and of course much undeserved evil repute?

[4t2b]

Forward Bookings

Can't help thinking that all the talk about forward bookings is based on conjecture rather than facts. The bookings I am making, and researching, do not seem to be any cheaper compared with other airlines, suggesting that BA are not too worried.

Personally I am still doing what I have always done, looking for the most convenient and cost effective way to fly. BA continues to give me the best deal for the Atlantic runs but fails on the Middle East.

Of course I would not book BA during a planned strike but I do not allow the threat of a strike to deter me.

One further question when does price matching become price fixing (BA/Virgin) ?

[MPN11]

@ Hammer ... thanks for the cross-posting of the FAQ on the previous page.

"Ouch" indeed, but then everyone except the ostriches knew all that was going to happen.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Price fixing occurrs when Willie speaks with Dickie and since Dickie dumped Willie in the pond to the tune of £270m over the last lot of price fixing? Probably not at all.

[Stelton]

You constantly say that you do not trust BA - so why not leave?

I think I know the answer!

Miss M says she has been with BA for 15 years so a rough estimate is that her basic salary is somewhere around £30.000 a year - excluding allowances so throw in another £12000. Not bad!

[cym]

MissM

Its important that the views of staff like MissM are listened to, they are the otherside of an argument / dispute that needs to be resolved.

Whilst some may not agree with her perspective she has every right, as does every member of PPRune to share them with us.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Well I am not so sure about that. I thought that the purpose of this thread was::::

Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your views or questions here? Many of us pilots like to know exactly what you think of us, the job, the airline or anything that you think we should hear about.

So I don;t think that the purlieu extends to debate with striking cabin staff. But you have my permission to continue of course if you feel it is your right.

[pvmw]

Well I am not so sure about that. I thought that the purpose of this thread was::::Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight)

Er, no. The purpose of this THREAD is "BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions"

So I don;t think that the purlieu extends to debate with striking cabin staff. But you have my permission to continue of course if you feel it is your right.

That is very generous of you to give us your permission. I join the others here to say that MissM, whether or not I agree with you I hope that you continue to post on this thread. I want to try to understand what is the motivation of the striking crew, and without hearing the other side of the argument this will become a very sterile place. Please disregard Hammer and his ilk, and continue to post your thoughts here. I suspect you won't change any views, but by posting and reading here you will at least make your position clear - and possibly appreciate the other point of view.

By the way, just why ARE you striking, and what would it take to satisfy you. These are two questions that I have still never seen answered satisfactorily.

[Mariner9]

By the way, just why ARE you striking, and what would it take to satisfy you. These are two questions that I have still never seen answered satisfactorily

To be fair to Miss M, I think she has answered your 1st question in a number of posts over the last couple of days. Basically, she is striking due to a fear of future imposition based upon a lack of trust in the BA Management*.

Whats not clear to me yet though is what her view of the 2nd question is. Presumably, the only acceptable outcome would be for trust to be restored. Perhaps she doesn't know how that may be achieved?

*Miss M - Apologies in advance in case I've misrepresented your views.

[iwalkedaway]

Possibly because I have been self-employed for more than 40 years I cannot credit why anyone would choose to continue working for an employer they say they regard as untrustworthy, bullying, vindictive and 'evil' AND endure all the alleged pain and stress of 'fighting' against 'the system'. Surely the tenacity shown in clinging on to such a stressful job under such a dreadful employer can only indicate that the compensation for doing so offers enormous advantage - such as the best pay and perks in the aviation business? If BA is as awful an employer as the BASSA militants plainly find it, surely the simple answer is for them to find more congenial work elsewhere. Trust me. You're only here once, so why spend the limited time your God has given you by suffering so badly at BA's hands? Unless, of course, this relentless whingeing is merely cosmetic hot air, which seems quite possible. The phrase constantly springing to mind is 'get a life'... The most enjoyable flights I have ever experienced have been ones on which the CC as well are obviously enjoying life.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Llademos

........but I don't like people stirring when the facts show otherwise

.

The fact is that Air New Zealand is no longer available for rebate travel to BA staff.

w.e.f. 28th February ANZ no longer features on the list of available airlines for selection. ( I've checked, and as you clearly have access to the Intranetsite, you can do the same )

ANZ is undoubtedly available for Interline travel amongst other airlines, it is only BA that have instituted this action against them, for BA's convenience.

........the following airlines will be terminated on 28 February 2010 and no travel will be permitted after this date regardless of the date of ticket issue or ticket expiry date.

Maybe ' kicked out ' was a bit emotive but the result is the same however you wrap it up or put a 'spin' on it.

[74woko]

74woko

Interesting remark from DaH apropos the (highly valued, if not much agreed-with) Miss M. If she isn't, she might as well be, given her resolutely immovable mental set. Mind you, 'if nobody had went to work' tends to me to suggest a Scots, rather than Irish, derivation.

[button44]

Trust.

Miss M said....
I don't blindly accept or believe everything they say but I don't have enough faith in our management to give up my trust in our union.

Sorry to say this, but if the militant CC's are not removed from BA the company will never be allowed to move forward. I for one do not intend to fly on a plane with a divided CC, some of whom seem to live in a land of maybe/could happen, so we'll strike in case and with no trust in their employer....that's a two way street I would suggest!

[just an observer]

Der absolute hammer wrote

With such a generous privilige available for friends, oneself, lovers, partners and retirees etc - is it any wonder now that so many are about to loose their fantastic freebies, that seat numbers will be down? This will surely benefit the airline. It will save BA fuel and free up seats for potential revenue passengers or perhaps even more profitable freight weight?

Staff on staff travel can never take up seats of potential revenue passengers. Staff use unsold seats. How many times does this have to be said?

[PAXboy]

This reply is long so do ignore if you wish but I am trying to clarify my points and this is an interesting discussion.
wiggy

PAXboy What aspect of the contracts do you think is out of kilter?
1. Being able to afford to commute?
2. Having time to commute?

Time. If I could afford to give up one or two or even three days to commute to work, then I must count those as, basically, work days. True, I might see friends along the way but flying and airports and one night crash pads are not that restful. So, I must be paid a lot of money to offset not having those days to be fully for myself and my family.

We're not talking about people ditching work or leaving work early on a Friday PM in order to be able to commute.

Sure, I did not think that and I have seen countless office workers sloping off early to get home or on a Friday for a long weekend. I appreciate that CC cannot do that and they have to work full hours - that is the nature of the job and is clear at the time of application.

Personally over the years I've commuted both by road from within the UK and by air (shorthaul, Europe). I've only ever been late, once, when driving, due to traffic on the M4, I've always done standby at the airport when required, and I'm often as not up near the CAA legal limits for hours flown/days worked, and I'm not the only one. I certainly know of several pilots who commute to/from Long Haul destinations. They "block" their work together, commute maybe once a month, and work very close to the legal flying hours limit.

In which case, they are being very well paid so that they can afford to give more time to commuting and jolly good luck to them. My point is that - if I were an employer and could see that many of my staff could afford that amount of time to commute, I would think I was paying them too much. If I was being paid that much, I would consider myself very lucky indeed and be looking around to see when it would come to an end.

Being self-employed, if I am asked to work 100 miles away, I have to ask more money to do the job. If they will not pay that, I have to decide if I am going to work for less money or not take the work. If I was taking a permanent job 100 miles away, exactly the same decision has to be made.

L337

You are mixing financial reward with lifestyle choices.

I don't think so as they are inextricably linked. My financial reward defines many of my lifestyle choices. If I earn enough money to commute to an office 250 miles away (irrespective of the method) then I am sacrificing some money to gain lifestyle at home and enduring a reduced quality of life during the commute, to offset the increased quality of time at home with family (or whatever the case may be).

Long distance commuting is almost always about family, and secondly lifestyle. Finance is at the bottom. For these people if you halved the salary, they would still do the commute.

Some would, some would not. For some, halving the money would then swing the balance too far and they would move closer to work, or find work closer to home. Whilst there are some that can receive more money and not change their lifestyle, mostly, people more or less money does change people. Cutting someone's income by 50% would affect their lifestyle and their choice of where to work.

To quote another source, in the USA this time where it is a far greater problem.
[snip]
These people commute because they are so poorly paid, not because they are so well paid. Low cost sometimes does mean low standards.

I can see that for pilots in the USA this is a real issue and the causes are complex. I have no doubt that the deregulations of the 1980s brought benefits and problems for all. Once enough people have died and the finger can be pointed firmly at this issue - then the rules will be changed. Then fares will go up but, hopefully, safety will improve again. I have no doubt that it is a real problem and that low cost can mean low standards. However, that is pilots in the US and I was making observations about CC, specifically in BA.

I accept that commuting (domestically, regionally, internationally) is an accepted part of life as airline crew (FC or CC) and that it has been supported by high fares to enable carriers to pay high salaries. BUT - I am suggesting that in the worst financial period for 80 years, it may not be possible for carriers to charge those fees to make their airline profitable and to pay the salary levels enjoyed in the past 30 years. In seeking to reduce costs, every single item will be up for grabs.

For what its worth: I have worked in major international corporations and am now self-employed. I have enjoyed a company car and supported mortgage yet, I have also been paid by the hour for working in a kitchen and as a labourer. When I was first married, I worked two jobs at the same time, which meant working three nights (Friday/Saturday/Sunday), finishing at 07:00 on Monday and starting again at the main job at 09:00. I have belonged to a trade union and on one occasion befitted from being a member and on another lost because I was. I have been made redundant and had a company dismiss me illegally. So I do understand something about working hours.

I am now responsible for every penny I earn and spend. If my costs increase, my profit goes down - just like it did when I worked in the City of London and had a department budget of £1.7m. Across my career in telecommunications, I worked for over 140 companies in various capacities from telephonist when I started to consultant when I stopped, these companies ranged across every aspect of commerce and government. I have seen something of employment and the changing fortunes of time since I first worked behind the counter of a department store aged 16 in the school holidays in 1972 (I am 53).

[ExSp33db1rd]

So, I must be paid a lot of money to offset not having those days to be fully for myself and my family.

Why should anyone be paid extra to live a long way from work ? - Unless ... the employer has moved you for their convenience, or it is deemed in their interest to have you live near your employment, e.g. there used to be something called a 'London Allowance paid by some employers - not BA, different issue.

The work pattern of BA aircrew make it possible to live a long way from Base, but it isn't mandatory -is it ?

It might be worth mentioning that 'normal' i.e. 9 - 5 workers by and large leave home after 7.oo am and are back home before 7.oo pm ( I know that is a generalisation, but it covers a lot of the population ) so they aren't even away from home for even half a day of the five that they work, then they get another 2 days off at the weekend !! Maybe they are away from home a max. of 2.5 days a week ? I used to be criticised by my neighbours for 'always' being at home - and I rarely achieved even 50/50 time away to time at home spread over a lifetime, i.e I achieved some 3.5 days a week at ' home v. my neighbours who enjoyed 4.5 days at home with their family. ( and I could never plan to be home for Christmas Day, Birthdays etc. - I knew I had been after the event ! Bidline rostering helped change that of course )

Just a thought when people complain about how much time off at home crew enjoy !

( I know, time away is spent lazing on some Caribbean beach - Yeah, right ! )

[Dawdler]

BASSA Membership.

Jimd-F wrote:

if you are 1 of the 36% who voted no, or did not vote, then you are still bound by the rules of the union to follow the majority and strike.if you choose not to, then i feel that you have no other option than to resign from the union. that is the only honest decision that you can make.

Some BASSA members seems to be taking your advice. On 1st April the Bassa membership stood at 10,450. Today, two weeks later it is 10,413! I have been watching his figure over the last few months, I only wish I had taken note of the actual figure on 1st November last, (I think it was around 10,800 but can't be sure). A loss of 37 in two weeks, is consistent with that sort of figure. This would equate to about £150,000 in lost subscriptions in a year, something like 8% of the total. Perhaps BASSA now understand lost revenue. BA have been trying to tell them about the consequences of this sort of thing for the last twelve months.

[wiggy]

PAXboy

In seeking to reduce costs, every single item will be up for grabs.

Ah well we can at least agree on something!

My final "shot" on this.
1. Staff Travel generates revenue for BA.
2. Under the current law of the land it's impossible for BA to squeeze much, if any, extra work for the majority of 's pilots, can't comment for Cabin Crew.
3. Commuting is done in people's off duty time.

So short of changing the national rules for the prevention of fatigue, and/or banning traveling by air when off duty the only way BA can stop staff members commuting is by cutting pay. Is that what you are suggesting?

[oggers]

A BASSA supporter on the other thread:

I can't say why other departments don't seem to be worried about what the company might do. Maybe those who volunteered to train as cabin crew should think about their own positions as there seemed to be enough time for their duties to be left unattended.

I thought that vcc were available because of the reduced business during the strike, and that other departments have already negotiated with management? It seems the pro-strikers are preaching to themselves and failing to look outside their little bubble and see what's going on in the rest of the company, and indeed the industry.