BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions

[MissM]

oldflyboy

Maybe BA should present to all other departments what BASSA has offered but what has been completely denied by the company. No wonder every single department in this company think we are a bunch of spoiled crew when they probably only get one side of the story.

Most crew understand we need to change and I think most are willing to. There are the odd ones who still live in the old days and don't agree to any change or when something is different but they are in minority.

This is not fighting for survival as WW was shouting out last year, which did nothing but bad to the company.

[MissM]

ExecClubPax

That meeting was last year and I was not present. I have always been hoping for and wanting proper negotiation between our union and management. I have never have supported their actions at the race course last year. I can only say it was probably one of BASSA's old tricks showing who's in charge.

Why am I still working for the company? Because it's a lifestyle which suits me and I like my job. I work with really good colleagues (most of the time) and there's a special feeling over it!

[PAXboy]

L337

PAXboy I am totally befuddled by your post. You do realise these people elect to commute in their own time, and at their own cost?
[snip]
I could not do it. For me that is madness, but for a few, it suits them.

Sorry if I have not made myself clear. I understand that they do this in their own time and of free will. I know that some folks in the UK commute to offices in London with 2.5hr train journey each way in order to maintain a domestic lifestyle and that they are able to work on the train. I, too, could not do that.

The reason I am surprised by it is that: If someone is able to spend all that amount of free time just to get to/from work - then the financial reward must be huge. That fact then tells them their salary is very good. To persist in trying to protect that is human nature but observation of the world across the 35 years of my adult life tells me that the situation is anomalous and cannot be maintained. Essentially, that level of remuneration for their job description is out of balance with 2010 and the market will be corrected. If manufacturing is being exported to China and office jobs to India, you must expect that jobs that require a physical presence will be subject to some constraint.

No, it is not nice to be the one having to give up such a nice salary but look around and see what has happened to everyone else. It is rumoured that some CC think: "OK, if BA goes under, a new carrier will emerge and will want good staff. OK, that might be at a lower rate but - until then - I'm going to hold out for the current rate." If that is the case (rumour!) then they are short sighted. Yes, there will be something to replace BA (at some stage) just as there was to replace Swiss, Sabena and JAL and all the rest but it will NOT have the same range and coverage as there is oversupply of seats in an unprofitable market place! The competition are waiting for BA to fail and will have already prepared several battle plans, may I suggest that taking on disaffected and (formerly) overpaid staff of the failed carrier will not be part of it.

wiggy

The commuting seems to have brought out the green eye in some.

If you are referring to me, then - No. I could not care less what commute people choose to give themselves for the benefits they want. My point is set above, the salary to fund a HKG~LHR commute is out of kilter with the job. It is based on contracts of last century and will not continue. My sympathies to those that lose a benefit that they have come to rely upon.

MissM

If you think this only happens at BA you will be in for a surprise.
[snip]
BA has also occasionally used "commuting" as part of their recruitment drives, especially when they were recruiting for language speakers all over Europe.

No, I don't think I would be surprised, I'm only surprised it's taken this long for folks to realise the imbalance. If BA have used this to their advantage in the past - fair enough. If they now choose to move the goal posts - fair enough.

May I add that, I think the Union had some valid points to make about the declining standards of BA but their choice to make the argument in this way (with the inevitable focus on salaries) has been a poor one. I shall not rehash my oft stated view that BA is in it's terminal decline phase and no action by any party can stop that. The die is cast, you only have to look at many other old companies in this country and the world. Again, not nice but that is how human beings are.


I should state for the record that I am not (nor ever have been) an employee or shareholder of any airline. Nor am I an avid capitalist who thinks that all staff are out to rip you off. My comments are all based on observing the world and the changing patterns of employment from my father's work (1946~1988) and my own and my siblings since 1973 - which have sometimes worked for me and sometimes against me. As BA CC are now finding out.

[MissM]

Ruthanne

We get to vote on the proposal!

[Ruthanne]

Miss M

Well that is something then, at least you all get a chance to vote for what you think is the right thing for you, there is so much to lose here for all of you! at least by voting you can always justify the whys and the woes for your own individual thinking...good luck

[4t2b]

How long a strike

One thing that intrigues me on these two discusion sites is the seeming disagreement between CC as to just how much support there is for this action.

Apparently ! some have not been able to show their support because they were not rostered for the strike dates, other reasons were quoted which escape me at the moment.

My question is, for what period would a strike have to be to involve ALL the CC ?

Any of you knowledgeable pundits hazard a guess ?

[MPN11]

Originally Posted by 4t2b

My question is, for what period would a strike have to be to involve ALL the CC ?

From what I have read, given the number of part-timers on VERY part-time contracts, it could theoretically be a very long time! By the time you also factor in 'not rostered on strike day' and/or 'sick on strike day' it might take months for all CC to actually be rostered during a declared strike period, and then have to put their commitment to BA on the line.

I doubt that situation will arise.

[R Knee]

Ms M (politically correct?) @ 1724 No, but they were strikebreaking a fully legal and democratic strike.

But if they are not a member of Unite they are neither blacklegs (a horribly emotive and very out dated term) nor can they be strikebreakers since their union or personal responsibility does not deem it a legal and democratic strike according to their own interpretation or responsibility since they had no vote in the matter, with which they are allowed legally and democratically to disagree

1984 was quite a thought provoking novel, have you read Animal Farm by the same author? 2 legs good forethought bad to misquote

[MissM]

Some crew works 6 weeks off and 3 weeks on. A strike including everyone would have to be a very long one!

R Knee

Flight crew, ground staff, temporary cabin crew and union crew members who went to work during the strike and performed our job are indeed strikebreakers.

[R Knee]

Beagle 9 said BluRibband, I know it's going back a few pages, but re post 1577 Cabin Crew pay, specifically "CSD basic salary starts at £44,000".

Now as you will see from my posts, I'm firmly in the anti strike camp and VERY critical of BASSA, but purely from the viewpoint of accuracy, I'm a CSD with close to 30 years seniority (16 as a CSD and at the top of the increment scale) and my basic, even now, is over £2000 LESS than that you quote as a starting basic.

I'm sure that the general public will see a £2000 difference in Basic starting Salary and very generous tax advantageous allowances on top, without even considering other ST perks, remains an envious salary . How much do you think a manager of a medium sized nationally owned supermarket earns?

Cribbean: Now, in case anyone thinks that BA won't axe routes, let me list those Asia/Pacific destinations that BA doesn't fly to any more

I know you're talking on the main thread but please can you or other posters quantify these TLAs its just jargon to us non cabin crew. Quite meaningless, is there somewhere others like myself can find out these destinations TLAs?

[emanresuym]

TLAs

R Knee, you could try Welcome to World Airport Codes

[TrakBall]

You beat me to it...

TB

[Boy In Blue]

Hi MissM,

Although I don't often agree with your point of view it is nice to hear it I'm sure lightbulbs will be happy to have some support

I only know two CC. One working and one striking. One at LHR and one at LGW. Easy to work out who is on strike perhaps! Both great people though.

I flew back form BOM during the stike. There appeared to be a few VCC on board but there were also working crew. The CSD appeared to be acting up a grade. I talked to two of the working crew and thanked them for working. I appreciated it. Both were nervous about striking crew returning to work but felt that the Union was leading them down a dead end. They felt the current economy would mean an end for BA if the strikers grounded your airline. They were working to protect their jobs and their belief, in their future, was as valid as any strikers.

I felt sorry for them. I have seen first hand IA get out of control in the mid 80's. Rancour and a fraught return to work. You do not want this at BA. Don't you think its a bit unfair to single out those who worked as being responsible for the unwinnable situation you are now in. IMHO it appears to be Bassa who got you into this mess. You and other strikers should be demanding answers from them. Anyhow, good luck to you and heres hoping that all at BA have a future to look forward to.

[ChicoG]

There has been some talk since the strike but I think one of the issues is that BA and UNITE are really far away from each other which makes it even more difficult to come to an agreement.

MissM, here is the crux of the argument. This dispute could have been resolved had you been given a chance to vote on the offer placed on the table prior to the announcement of strike dates, but UNITE/BASSA decided that you should not have that opportunity. Further, they announced strike dates knowing that this offer would be withdrawn as a result.

Do you not feel that your union are not representing you properly?

Or do you blindly accept everything they say?

As far as I can see, BA and cabin crew may well have been able to see eye to eye, but those in charge of BASSA and UNITE don't want this to happen, as it shows them to be worthless.

[wiggy]

PAXboy

UOTE] My point is set above, the salary to fund a HKG~LHR commute is out of kilter with the job. It is based on contracts of last century and will not continue.
[/QUOTE]

What aspect of the contracts do you think is out of kilter?

1. Being able to afford to commute?

Crewmembers are using Staff Travel, thereby providing the company with revenue for seats that would otherwise be empty. We're talking about commuting once or twice a month, which quite possibly costs less than running a car in the UK.

2. Having time to commute?

Crewmembers duty and flying hours/days off are constrained by the Legal limits for avoidance of fatigue laid down by the CAA. BA crew (certainly pilots) run pretty close to the limit of those figures, no matter where they live. Their commuting is done in their legally required time off.


We're not talking about people ditching work or leaving work early on a Friday PM in order to be able to commute. Personally over the years I've commuted both by road from within the UK and by air (shorthaul, Europe). I've only ever been late, once, when driving, due to traffic on the M4, I've always done standby at the airport when required, and I'm often as not up near the CAA legal limits for hours flown/days worked, and I'm not the only one. I certainly know of several pilots who commute to/from Long Haul destinations. They "block" their work together, commute maybe once a month, and work very close to the legal flying hours limit.

Making Crewmembers live in Colnbrook and walk to work might make some people happy but it will probably not improve profitability or crew availability one bit.

[L337]

The reason I am surprised by it is that: If someone is able to spend all that amount of free time just to get to/from work - then the financial reward must be huge. That fact then tells them their salary is very good.

You are mixing financial reward with lifestyle choices.

Long distance commuting is almost always about family, and secondly lifestyle. Finance is at the bottom. For these people if you halved the salary, they would still do the commute.

Google, crash pads for flight attendants You will begin to get the size and extent of the "problem."

To quote another source, in the USA this time where it is a far greater problem.

Pilots for regionals frequently commute across the U.S. for flights because they can’t afford to live near the airports where they’re based, Darby says.

Before operating a plane, they often sleep in crew lounges or at so-called crash pads, temporary apartments where as many as six pilots share a bedroom. Former Colgan pilot Preusser lived full time in a crash pad in Albany, New York, in 2007.

He says he slept on an air mattress and shared a room with three or four people. One pilot slept in a walk-in closet, he says. Many regional pilots can’t afford meals and keep track of which hotels offer free continental breakfasts, Preusser says.

Preusser says he remembers falling asleep in the cockpit while piloting a 50-seat Embraer RJ145. He had been on standby and was assigned at the last minute to fly a 7 p.m. flight from Dallas to Cincinnati.

‘It’s Very Scary’

The next day, he started at 5 a.m. and flew three more flights. On the final trip that day, he dozed off for a few seconds.

“That adds up to: Let’s just play Russian roulette with air traffic safety,” Preusser says. “In the pilot world, being aware of your environment and what the airplane is doing is absolutely requisite. You’re not fully conscious or even conscious at all and then you snap to, and it’s very scary.”

John Nance, a retired Air Force pilot who also flew for Alaska Airlines and has about 40 years of flying experience, says airlines are closing their eyes to issues of training, pay and living conditions among regional pilots.

“This business of see no evil, hear no evil doesn’t cut it,” says Nance, who’s testified for both plaintiffs and defendants in civil cases as an expert on air safety. “It is totally unacceptable legally, morally, ethically for any airline leadership to pretend they don’t know what they know.”

A link to The original article.

These people commute because they are so poorly paid, not because they are so well paid.

Low cost sometimes does mean low standards.

[Mariner9]

In December we had a 90% turnout and in March it was 10% less than that. Do you think crew would have received some heart changing information in the very last second? It's way above majority and don't you think it's a sign that there's something wrong?

There was indeed clearly something wrong. I wasn't of course there, but understand that most at the meeting who voted to strike believed that the crew member reduction was imposed due to BA's refusal to negotiate. Whereas, the Court judgement found that it was in fact imposed due to BASSA's failure to negotiate. Big difference. I would have changed my view upon reading that judgement.

No doubt the other factors you mentioned caused some, perhaps many, perhaps even the majority of staff to change their mind. Whatever reason it was, people are of course entitled their own viewpoint, even if that POV had changed since the vote. Understandable perhaps that the strikers currently feel let down by this, but if you want to continue your career with BA with any degree of job satisfaction you must come to terms with this, and attempt to regain mutual trust and respect with your colleagues of whatever persuasion.

As for the possibility of further action, I would say that if BASSA/UNITE had any honour whatsoever, they would not call for any further strikes without re-balloting their members. They clearly no longer enjoy 80% support.

PS Once again well done for continuing to argue your case eloquently and without rancour.

[R Knee]

Thanks for the link emanresuym now I know!

MissM
By your definition StrikeBreakers would include anyone who assisted in the running of the schedule:

the BA passengers, air traffic controllers, airport bus drivers, hotel staff, the RAC man who mended the car for someone to get to work, the shop assistant who sold a Yorkie to a working crew member, etc.

In fact anyone who wasn't on the picket line .... the rest of the world?

You have every right to strike and I fully support your freedom to do so. You do not have the right to demand everyone else supports you regardless, especially those who do not want to allow your actions to risk their own livelihood. Your arguments are somewhat reminiscent of the old demarcation disputes of the 70s and similarly almost certainly doomed to failure.

[Snas]

Hmmm

Writing in the latest edition of British Airways News, Walsh said: “I very much hope that our customers are not once again disrupted by unnecessary action.”

He said he “genuinely” believed the new offer would be acceptable to cabin crew.

Unite has said the talks with BA are making “serious progress.”

Neither side would comment on the details of the proposals.

New offer eh. We can only but wonder as to the details at the moment I guess, but progress is progress.

[ExSp33db1rd]

let me list those Asia/Pacific destinations that BA doesn't fly to any more

Like - New Zealand ?

Who do you think the Kiwis would have to use to fly to "The Old Country" to help them out in World War III - as they did in I & II ?

"BRITISH Airways ? - who are they " might well be heard ( " and do we care ? " )

BA have just kicked Air New Zealand out of the Interline agreements, too, so that they can't be used for Staff Travel anymore - Whoops ! not allowed to mention that !