Bachelor of aviation (flying) degree

[peterc005]

My son also has an interest in being a teacher, like his mum.

I pointed out to him that after completing a bachelor's degree in aviation, down the track he could do a year of study for a Dip Education to become a teacher. Handy backup if he ever loses his medical or gets caught in an aviation industry downturn.

A similar year of graduate study would get him into Accounting, IT, Banking etc.

In the long term, pilots in airlines will need the analytical and literacy skills of a degree to move into management. Wise long term investment.

I'm a weekend private pilot with no flight school affiliations. Happy to give my personal details to anyone who wants to verify this.

[Di_Vosh]

God there is some CRAP advice on this thread

It's not that big a jump from aviation to IT. Do an aviation degree, then maybe some post grad IT studies.

Later, when flying for the airlines with days off, do IT consulting for extra bucks.

Before I was employed as a pilot I spent 18 years in IT (11 as an IT consultant).

Never have I heard such stupidity.

DIVOSH!

[Mr. Hat]

I've been writing these posts forever...

Sure but the problem is that the Aviation degree doesn't make one iota of difference to getting an Airline gig. Sorry guys.

I'll tell you what makes a difference:

3 years.

3 years spent messing around at uni is 3 years you are not getting the minimum qualifications to gain entry into a jet job like the one I have now. I fly with a lot of Captains that are exactly my age and younger. Do you know what the difference is? I went to uni before getting the minimum experience, they didn't. I'm not saying "don't go to uni". Hell, do a bloody phd if you want! Knock your self out. What I am saying is GET YOUR BUM ON A SEAT BEFORE THE MUSIC STOPS! Then.. do the degree.

Another lovely couple of thoughts for you. Every time we have an EBA another B scale comes through in one form or another like it or not. This is the "lucky" country. The longer you delay it, the worse your long term conditions are and the further down the seniority list you are. How would you like to be an effo for life? Do you think Airlines will hire forever? Jump in the Delorian and come back to the 90's and you'll get a surprise at how many jet jobs were going back then! Its all about cycles.

While you're at it, ask your accountant to crunch the numbers of 3 years missed at the top Captains salary earning level has on your long term financial well being! Thats right you are shortening your earnings at the top level by 3 years. Lets say 20 years command vs 17. Wow thats one hell of a degree!..Bloggs brushes himself off..."****, that just cost me a million dollars!"

[mcgrath50]

Fair call and as I said before, you have the experience I don't. But I left school at 17, three years uni, 20 years old. That's not that far behind people and from what I can see the three years can be down to luck (not getting the progression in GA) as much as the degree.

I had a great time at uni, which I probably would have with any degree, met lots of people, who I still use as contacts today, and grew up a lot as it meant for me moving out of home. The life experience not so much the classes were beneficial.

It really is a personal thing though and I don't deny that I may have delayed my entry to an airline/captains seat/top pay grade by up to three years. It's a bit like the advice people give here of avoiding shiny jet syndrome and enjoying GA, the journey can be as important as the destination.

[Mr. Hat]

Mc grath you've done it now thats fine no probs. I'm trying to advise someone is at the cross roads and has the option. If I could have my time over its the one thing I would change.

Boys (and girls) if you think uni is fun wait till you get your hands on your very first job! Your first twin, its awesome get into it.

[mcgrath50]

Mr. Hat, I know and just giving him my perspective. I too am learning from your perspective and find it very interesting, please don't take my posts as debating you!

[Mr. Hat]

Ah nothing wrong with debating me plenty of others do. I haven't got all the answers!

The stuff that gets me a little cross is the:

"In the states majors won't hire you if you don't have a degree. You know thats coming here soon."

Thats like pulling the fire handle before the fire starts!

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

4greens, but how far?
1 year of CPL + 2-3 years of charter flying

Or

3-4 years of uni with CPL included, then you are 2-3 years behind the one without the degree in terms of experience..

Im afraid it is not that simple, How many 18year old school leavers graduate with $75k tucked away to give to a flying school? Sure you can grab a CPL from a local flying school in a year if you have the cash, but I think it is widely accepted that as a school leaver with negligible savings, it will take you a minimum 2 years to do the ol' full time work + flying agenda. With that in mind, the aviation degree puts you at most, 1 year behind the pack. You have to ask yourself what the extra year gives you, In my eyes:
-Recognised tertiary qualification
-Superior technical knowledge (well beyond the 'how to pass the CASA exam for dummies' courses)
-Standardised flight training - from the feedback I get from people studying aviation, a vastly superior product is delivered from such organisations, a disciplined approach from day 1 goes a very long way (this may or may not apply to all organisations)
-Greater dedication to flight flight training, spending 5/7days flipping burgers is not the same as immersing yourself in Aviation for similar periods
-Much greater networking opportunities
-Access to post grad qualifications should the unthinkable occur


If I had the time and interest I could add more to that list, but I doubt I will be able to sway the views of the firm believers anyway.

In my eyes the Aviation degree helps you achieve to the best of your capabilities in your chosen field, that goes for both the flying and theory side. I mean no disrespect to those who are doing it the 'conventional' way (I know plenty), Although times are a'changing, and in this day I personally would feel a little 'nude' entering any workforce without tertiary qualifications, 'everyone' goes to uni these days!

[Stationair8]

You go straight to the top in GA, Roxy Chick.

[Mr. Hat]

-Superior technical knowledge (well beyond the 'how to pass the CASA exam for dummies' courses)

Keep telling yourself that..

Its like a form of brainwashing.

All this worldly experience talk.

-Standardised flight training - from the feedback I get from people studying aviation, a vastly superior product is delivered from such organisations, a disciplined approach from day 1 goes a very long way (this may or may not apply to all organisations)

-Greater dedication to flight flight training, spending 5/7days flipping burgers is not the same as immersing yourself in Aviation for similar periods

Now you just come across as an arrogant little uni kid.

Vastly superior? Says who the people that sell it? The brochures?

Greater dedication - oh come off it. So you've met every student pilot in Australia. While you were at uni did you learn about confirmation bias?

I rather the kid thats flippin burgers actually. Thats dedication. Not waiting for mummy and daddy to fork out.

'everyone' goes to uni these days!

..yyeeepp thats the problem...

Sorry guys I get the ****s when people get all high and mighty. Funnily enough it was the high and mighty type that never turned up in ga when school was out. Thats right they gave it up. You soon see who's who when you've run out of ways to avoid going bush.

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

Greater dedication - oh come off it. So you've met every student pilot in Australia. While you were at uni did you learn about confirmation bias?

It would seem I need to clarify this point a little further, I am not questioning the dedication of the individual - far from it. More so the dedication of ones calendar week to activities related to Aviation, my point is that Aviation degrees do provide an excellent learning environment that allows you to make the most out of your theory and/or flying training.

Best we agree to disagree Mr. Hat, Its time this thread got back on topic.

[jieunni]

You choose. I did the degree, did the training with bells whistles did the GA did the turbo props, did the crap jet job now I have a good jet job. 15 years of right moves and mistakes. A degree before getting a job was one of the mistakes.

Get the trade do the training get a flying job then do the degree.

That can't be said for every degree. You never know what will happen in the future and for some people, it may not be feasible to then start university and study for three or more years. Indeed, it's possible to do distance education and study part-time, but I think you would agree that one should choose a degree that is in align with one's interest. As I've pointed out in the previous page, some degrees cannot be studied part-time.

[M]y point is that Aviation degrees do provide an excellent learning environment that allows you to make the most out of your theory and/or flying training.

This is really good point that I think you don't appreciate [Mr. Hat]. Some sudents actually want to go to university and experience university life and if you were to reply and tell me that I am

messing around

with my univerity degree, I think you would find that you would be in the minority. Although, if you refer to degree as an aviation degree, then yes, I would agree that an aviation degree is pointless. But that is my own view and Roxy raises a strong and valid point about the learning environment

[4Greens]

There are a number of times in this post where people quote their experience without allowing for the major changes in the availability of jobs at a particular time. As has often been said, a number of times, aviation is cyclical. This has been exacerbated by the movement to extend airline pilot retirement ages. The time will come......better to be well up in the queue.

[Mr. Hat]

As I've said nothing wrong with going to uni or getting an education. I see it as a positive. What I'm saying is that if you want to give yourself the best chance at getting your bum on the best seat in the airline industry you need to collect the Minimum Requirements ("Must Haves" at my company) first and the "Nice to Haves" later. The degree simply doesn't have the pulling power that the universities say it does when it comes to getting an interview.

Let me share this with you. I watched the CEO of my company tell us in a presentation and then also watched him in the Senate Inquiry clearly state that the company would not grow as much as it had in the previous decade. His words were; "I don't see the domestic fleet increasing by much" and then "No company ever went broke by having too few airplanes". You can take what you want from that and from what I'm trying to tell you here. Fact is I've been through it all (plus some added extras!) and I'm exposed half the month to the type of operation that a lot of you want to ultimately work for.

If I had my time over I'd have become a carpenter straight out of school (maybe flying on the weekend) and then gone straight to flying school completing a degree after I commenced employment. At the moment, with things slowing I may have even skipped the trade and gone straight for the licence straight out of school and then pointed the car in a westerly direction. If you are going to risk 3 odd years risk it on something that has a guaranteed return and an aviation degree does not have a return I'm sorry.

Ultimately we all do what we feel is right. All those years ago I thought the degree first was right. I thought it would put me ahead of the rest when it came to employment. In my journey I discovered that few had it and they all progressed at the same rate that I was. The reality deep down was that I was avoiding leaving the comforts of home for that bit longer! When it all came to an end my dad said something I'll never forget:

"music's playing..you'd better get up and dance". I went to my room and packed my stuff. The rest is history.

The guys at the flying schools that weren't doing degrees are now my Captains. Yes there are many factors to consider in why they got there first. Yes I had some very bad luck on multiple occasions but ultimately had I not sat at home for 3 years I'd have been in the left seat same company a long time ago. Its now possibly going to be 7-15 years. I'm not bitter, quite the opposite. I've achieved my goal, I love my job and I make good money and more importantly I didn't get killed in the bush. However, my standard of living would be a lot different today had I read a post like this one all those years ago. Good luck to you all and don't forget to enjoy the journey.

[mcgrath50]

Thanks, Mr. Hat. Taken on board the advice

[PyroTek]

Im afraid it is not that simple, How many 18year old school leavers graduate with $75k tucked away to give to a flying school?

About half of my CPL class was between 17 and 20 years old, some through means of parents, some through means of savings. I trained alongside a friend who had saved up all his money during high school for his CPL.

You have to ask yourself what the extra year gives you

From what I hear, Griffith Aviation is falling behind, the students seem to be doing a 4th year catching up on flying training, as the provider's supply of flying training is not meeting the demands of the students.

-Standardised flight training - from the feedback I get from people studying aviation, a vastly superior product is delivered from such organisations, a disciplined approach from day 1 goes a very long way (this may or may not apply to all organisations)

Flight training may be standardised, but is it in the right/safest methods? I hear all sorts of rumours I won't bring up in here. Is being in a sausage factory being trained the same syllabus, better than going to a small flying school and learning essentially the same syllabus, as set down by CASA, though having an experienced, dedicated instructor? (By dedicated, I mean, to the student - as there are nowhere near as many students)

-Greater dedication to flight flight training, spending 5/7days flipping burgers is not the same as immersing yourself in Aviation for similar periods

I work as a shop assistant at a large supermarket chain, I immerse myself in aviation nightly, through PPRuNe, contacts and talking to people in the industry on Instant messengers. Most of my aviation networking is done from home. I feel that working a job like mine and paying off my own training as it is done is beneficial as I know where my money is going, and it's my money right now, so I'm going to get my money's worth from the training. Not only that, I think it is a much cheaper option to go through a small flying school than do a uni degree. Is it worth the difference in monetary terms?

Pyro

[Cirronimbus]

"I work as a shop assistant at a large supermarket chain, I immerse myself in aviation nightly, through PPRuNe, contacts and talking to people in the industry on Instant messengers. Most of my aviation networking is done from home. I feel that working a job like mine and paying off my own training as it is done is beneficial as I know where my money is going, and it's my money right now, so I'm going to get my money's worth from the training. Not only that, I think it is a much cheaper option to go through a small flying school than do a uni degree. Is it worth the difference in monetary terms?"

That is an interesting view. Just like 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', the "worth" is also up to the individual to decide. In my case, I study on-line and thoroughly enjoy it. I consider my money is well spent. I get to "immerse" myself in aviation at work, through on-line study and discussion, and also get some info and ideas from this website too. I consider some of the ideas, information and experience that comes from on-line interaction with the other students (who are experienced people in a variety of aviation fields) on my course as nearly priceless; at least I doubt that I could get such useful and reliable information from 'public' websites. I have found that the training I am getting through uni is extra to what I've received from any flying school and it is relevant to what happens in the industry. This 'extra' training can not hurt. I guess it will depend on what you think is useful to you and what you think is value for your money?

On the other hand, I have met some uni graduates who happily boast about their uni educations, and in the same breath, will gob off and display their complete lack of knowledge about basic aviation concepts. It isn't about whether you have a degree or not, it is about what you have learned and what you put into practice.

Good luck with your studies, what ever form they take.

[Mr. Hat]

Dominic the fact that you are thinking about it is a very good sign. Be positive, make it happen. Just keep going don't stop. The saying that I picked up during my training? "one things for sure, you wont get in if you give up". And you know what? Every single person that stuck at, it bar those tragically killed, made it in the end. The ones that have it away, well you don't want to hear those stories!

Pyro, you're so on to it you're saving me from having to type. Small school experienced instructor my friend. I wish I had your brains when I started.

Pprune has a lot of rubbish on it lads, however there is some good stuff and some good posters on here that you can ask for help anytime. A lot of these guys are chief pilots and owners of companies in ga. It'll be up to you to work out who is worth listening to and who not. Often post counts can be an indicator. Just because someone disagrees or flames you doesn't mean they won't help you or won't offer you advice or a solution. Just a difference of opinion thats all.

[mcgrath50]

Small school experienced instructor my friend. I wish I had your brains when I started.

We can agree 100% on that. If you do, do the degree route (not advocating it), at a couple you can hold off enrolling in the flying, do your flying at a better school then get RPL for those subjects. It will be cheaper, better and possibly the best of both worlds.

[T28D]

A Degree is proof of endeavour, time spent in academic rigour, it is not someting to be denigrated.

No matter what the discipline, the effort and time invested in the study is well spent.

Anyone can carp on about "experience" and "time logged" all of which is no doubt a benefit to the individual.

But there is no way the endeavour of academic rigour can be sold short in the face of a purely experiential learining system.

Academe will win every time, it takes discipline and rigour.