Bachelor of aviation (flying) degree
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that one would study medicine for five to seven years with the intention of keeping it as a back up.
One well-known chap in Melbourne (certainly would have to be retired now - haven't spoken with him for quite a few years) ..
(a) started off as an airline F/O (ANA - long time ago, now),
(b) read medicine while flying, eventually discontinued airline flying and ran FT with medicine - but could have combined the two without too much difficulty,
(c) subsequently read electrical engineering and ran a successful avionics shop
all the while having an interesting life of it. Not the common path due to the training time, but feasible, nonetheless.
One of the PPRuNe moderators combines both medical practice and professional flying. I venture to guess that there will be others in the sandpit as well.
As with any of the vocational degrees, they become very stale, very quickly if one doesn't work in the field along the way - none of them really fit the idea of being kept in reserve for a feared event years down the track. I see no reason why most can't be combined with flying. For instance, I ran a very active aviation engineering consultancy activity in parallel with airline flying.
I guess that similar observations could be made regarding, at least, some trades which require licences ?
One well-known chap in Melbourne (certainly would have to be retired now - haven't spoken with him for quite a few years) ..
(a) started off as an airline F/O (ANA - long time ago, now),
(b) read medicine while flying, eventually discontinued airline flying and ran FT with medicine - but could have combined the two without too much difficulty,
(c) subsequently read electrical engineering and ran a successful avionics shop
all the while having an interesting life of it. Not the common path due to the training time, but feasible, nonetheless.
One of the PPRuNe moderators combines both medical practice and professional flying. I venture to guess that there will be others in the sandpit as well.
As with any of the vocational degrees, they become very stale, very quickly if one doesn't work in the field along the way - none of them really fit the idea of being kept in reserve for a feared event years down the track. I see no reason why most can't be combined with flying. For instance, I ran a very active aviation engineering consultancy activity in parallel with airline flying.
I guess that similar observations could be made regarding, at least, some trades which require licences ?
Good point JT!
The one benefit of doing an aviation degree, then working in aviation is you are keeping the degree current by working in the field. If you do a psych degree as a back up that's fine but in ten years time when you are over aviation and looking to get back into it your degree will be almost worthless.
As someone above said, education can be an end in itself and university life is a lot of fun, you make lots of new friends and have some great times. You will be slogging it out up north for a number of years, nothing wrong with taking a year or two extra to enjoy being young and responsibility free!
I'd personally recommend uni of some sort (aviation, commerce, arts, science etc. as long as it interests you) but it really doesn't matter. That is purely based on what I wanted to experience in life.
The one benefit of doing an aviation degree, then working in aviation is you are keeping the degree current by working in the field. If you do a psych degree as a back up that's fine but in ten years time when you are over aviation and looking to get back into it your degree will be almost worthless.
As someone above said, education can be an end in itself and university life is a lot of fun, you make lots of new friends and have some great times. You will be slogging it out up north for a number of years, nothing wrong with taking a year or two extra to enjoy being young and responsibility free!
I'd personally recommend uni of some sort (aviation, commerce, arts, science etc. as long as it interests you) but it really doesn't matter. That is purely based on what I wanted to experience in life.
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I did the Griffith uni Ba Avn. I enjoyed it, as others have said, each degree will have its strengths and weaknesses. Having done the degree and having worked in GA I can say that it will not help you get your first few jobs. It did however recently get me an interview with a large airline overseas
I did the degree because I was encouraged by my parents. I found that uni life was pretty cruisy and I made some great friends. After graduating I became interested in post grad study and I am now working towards a PhD with UNSW.
If you want a well rounded education and the proven ability to think critically, go with a degree and take a part time job (I went with security and crowd control).
If you want money on the side and a fall back option, go with a trade; or
If you have the cash, just get your CPL ASAP and get that first job...
That being said, most employers look at flight experience, whether you can sell yourself in an interview and whether or not get a good reference from your last employer. That is how I got every job I've had.
I did the degree because I was encouraged by my parents. I found that uni life was pretty cruisy and I made some great friends. After graduating I became interested in post grad study and I am now working towards a PhD with UNSW.
If you want a well rounded education and the proven ability to think critically, go with a degree and take a part time job (I went with security and crowd control).
If you want money on the side and a fall back option, go with a trade; or
If you have the cash, just get your CPL ASAP and get that first job...
That being said, most employers look at flight experience, whether you can sell yourself in an interview and whether or not get a good reference from your last employer. That is how I got every job I've had.
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My experience is mainly at Moorabbin, where I have hired a lot of planes from GFS/Oxford.
Looking back, I get a very favorable impression of the people who have been thru Swinburne/Oxford.
Can't comment on RMIT or other places because havn't had much to do with the.
Possibly the Swinburne/Oxford pilots would have turned out well anyway, but I'm impressed. Certainly the "airline pilot sausage factory" holds water, but that's what both the pilots and airlines want.
My strategy is for my son to finish his PPL in my plane before he hopefully starts at uni, and to use my plane as far as possible for training to reduce the costs.
Aviation degrees are a fantastic idea and generally seems to have been well executed.
Looking back, I get a very favorable impression of the people who have been thru Swinburne/Oxford.
Can't comment on RMIT or other places because havn't had much to do with the.
Possibly the Swinburne/Oxford pilots would have turned out well anyway, but I'm impressed. Certainly the "airline pilot sausage factory" holds water, but that's what both the pilots and airlines want.
My strategy is for my son to finish his PPL in my plane before he hopefully starts at uni, and to use my plane as far as possible for training to reduce the costs.
Aviation degrees are a fantastic idea and generally seems to have been well executed.
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One well-known chap in Melbourne (certainly would have to be retired now - haven't spoken with him for quite a few years) ..
(a) started off as an airline F/O (ANA - long time ago, now),
(b) read medicine while flying, eventually discontinued airline flying and ran FT with medicine - but could have combined the two without too much difficulty,
(c) subsequently read electrical engineering and ran a successful avionics shop
all the while having an interesting life of it. Not the common path due to the training time, but feasible, nonetheless.
(a) started off as an airline F/O (ANA - long time ago, now),
(b) read medicine while flying, eventually discontinued airline flying and ran FT with medicine - but could have combined the two without too much difficulty,
(c) subsequently read electrical engineering and ran a successful avionics shop
all the while having an interesting life of it. Not the common path due to the training time, but feasible, nonetheless.
I stand to be corrected, but I myself only graduated from year twelve last year with an offer to UNSW's MBBS program. Unless anything significant has changed since then, I don't think medicine would be a good choice if flying is what one wanted to do full-time IMHO. However, full-time medicine and recreational flying is certainly feasible and probably the more sensible out of the pair.
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Thanks again everyone, from what I have seen and researched UNSW looks like a good option as it has its own flying school and its local so that will being costs down.
Just another question does anyone know if Virgin Australia has any from of cadet program?
Thanks again Will
Just another question does anyone know if Virgin Australia has any from of cadet program?
Thanks again Will
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there is no medical degree program, and by that I mean, that awards one with a MBBS, that is offered part-time
Back in the bad old days, one could structure one's flying to provide an essentially fulltime availability for other work, including training - might have affected the sleep a little but it certainly was possible.
The easier approach is to do the training fulltime prior to running with the flying job. Such was my strategy and, indeed, I just missed out on completing the BSc/BE double in parallel with engineering (without doing the extra year) as well as completing the bulk of my flying training on weekends. Mind you, back in those days, we averaged one or two nights a week working straight through without any sleep .. just par for the course, as it were. The Arts folk had a more relaxing life but that's the way things were and, I suppose, engineering is not all that much different these days ?
Actually, I originally intended to enrol in medicine but tossed that idea away over coffee on the day and went for aero .. I probably would have made a dreadful medico anyway.
However, full-time medicine and recreational flying is certainly feasible and probably the more sensible out of the pair
Again, in the bad old days, more than a few airline pilots opted for professional flying on a recreational basis.
Now, if a medico can tie work and recreational flying, what is the subtle difference between the two which might preclude professional flying ?
Main point is that some have combined medicine and professional flying with some success so the option remains valid.
In any case, medicine is but only but one of a number of vocational courses to which the budding pilot might look. The important consideration is to do a course in which one has significant interest and can contemplate a career if the flying turns to custard for whatever reason.
I might note that those of us in '89 with a second string to the bow suffered, in the main, far less stress than many of our flying-only colleagues.
Back in the bad old days, one could structure one's flying to provide an essentially fulltime availability for other work, including training - might have affected the sleep a little but it certainly was possible.
The easier approach is to do the training fulltime prior to running with the flying job. Such was my strategy and, indeed, I just missed out on completing the BSc/BE double in parallel with engineering (without doing the extra year) as well as completing the bulk of my flying training on weekends. Mind you, back in those days, we averaged one or two nights a week working straight through without any sleep .. just par for the course, as it were. The Arts folk had a more relaxing life but that's the way things were and, I suppose, engineering is not all that much different these days ?
Actually, I originally intended to enrol in medicine but tossed that idea away over coffee on the day and went for aero .. I probably would have made a dreadful medico anyway.
However, full-time medicine and recreational flying is certainly feasible and probably the more sensible out of the pair
Again, in the bad old days, more than a few airline pilots opted for professional flying on a recreational basis.
Now, if a medico can tie work and recreational flying, what is the subtle difference between the two which might preclude professional flying ?
Main point is that some have combined medicine and professional flying with some success so the option remains valid.
In any case, medicine is but only but one of a number of vocational courses to which the budding pilot might look. The important consideration is to do a course in which one has significant interest and can contemplate a career if the flying turns to custard for whatever reason.
I might note that those of us in '89 with a second string to the bow suffered, in the main, far less stress than many of our flying-only colleagues.
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Back in the bad old days, one could structure one's flying to provide an essentially fulltime availability for other work, including training - might have affected the sleep a little but it certainly was possible.
The easier approach is to do the training fulltime prior to running with the flying job. Such was my strategy and, indeed, I just missed out on completing the BSc/BE double in parallel with engineering (without doing the extra year) as well as completing the bulk of my flying training on weekends. Mind you, back in those days, we averaged one or two nights a week working straight through without any sleep .. just par for the course, as it were. The Arts folk had a more relaxing life but that's the way things were and, I suppose, engineering is not all that much different these days ?
Again, in the bad old days, more than a few airline pilots opted for professional flying on a recreational basis.
Now, if a medico can tie work and recreational flying, what is the subtle difference between the two which might preclude professional flying ?
Now, if a medico can tie work and recreational flying, what is the subtle difference between the two which might preclude professional flying ?
For those who do recreational flying, what I meant by that was those who maybe go down to their local airfield and just fly around for their own amusement.
Main point is that some have combined medicine and professional flying with some success so the option remains valid.
Having a back up degree is important because you never know what could happen to your health. By having that back up, it's pretty much an insurance policy. But be mindful of what you pick as your back-up.
Anyway, I think this has been taken a bit too far off-topic now. However...
The important consideration is to do a course in which one has significant interest and can contemplate a career if the flying turns to custard for whatever reason.
Guys you study medicine because you want to be a doctor. I would suggest that you will be told to 'come back when you're serious' if you told them at the entrance interview that medicine was only a backup plan to being an airline pilot.....
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jieunni .. I guess, in the time honoured tradition, we shall have to agree to disagree on the odd point or two.
The consideration is not medicine, per se .. rather something to use as a marketable backup to the flying... doesn't really matter what arena so long as it's marketable and, preferably, desirable for the individual.
Looking back, I have had a ball playing engineers .. but I might have done far better, in all probability, with a trade. For instance, a cousin, of similar age, retired from fulltime work running an electrical contracting business at age 55 and has since played grey nomads in a large trailer van with more funds (from the sale) than I have ... oh well .. win some, lose some, I guess.
combined engineering students do on average 22-28 hours a week
things certainly have changed .. that was our workload through until around Tuesday evening ... and we had to find room for drinking in our leisure time.
The consideration is not medicine, per se .. rather something to use as a marketable backup to the flying... doesn't really matter what arena so long as it's marketable and, preferably, desirable for the individual.
Looking back, I have had a ball playing engineers .. but I might have done far better, in all probability, with a trade. For instance, a cousin, of similar age, retired from fulltime work running an electrical contracting business at age 55 and has since played grey nomads in a large trailer van with more funds (from the sale) than I have ... oh well .. win some, lose some, I guess.
combined engineering students do on average 22-28 hours a week
things certainly have changed .. that was our workload through until around Tuesday evening ... and we had to find room for drinking in our leisure time.
When I went to university, I used to get up half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work 29 hours a day and when I got home our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves!
And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe ya!
And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe ya!
It seems to me that you need to decide which career path will hold precedence over the other.
I've always followed my ag. science path, and the flying became the 'hobby' if you like. It's worked well for me, as a travelling consultant - the flying became the means to travel. Nowdays I instruct a little more often as I've retired from most science jobs. And, I'll stay with it until the med1 expires. After 48 years and near 12k hours in my 2nd profession - I can definitely say this way... works.
Several others fellow scientists in Oz have also been able to steadily improve their flying quals - without losing anything in career path #1. The others I know of are all now ATPL/CIR, or CFI/Gr1 and still enjoying their flying.
I'd be surprised if there aren't many more economists, commerce,business,engineers, pharmacists out in GA/RAA land -enjoying their 2nd career, and filling a part time niche.
happy days,
I've always followed my ag. science path, and the flying became the 'hobby' if you like. It's worked well for me, as a travelling consultant - the flying became the means to travel. Nowdays I instruct a little more often as I've retired from most science jobs. And, I'll stay with it until the med1 expires. After 48 years and near 12k hours in my 2nd profession - I can definitely say this way... works.
Several others fellow scientists in Oz have also been able to steadily improve their flying quals - without losing anything in career path #1. The others I know of are all now ATPL/CIR, or CFI/Gr1 and still enjoying their flying.
I'd be surprised if there aren't many more economists, commerce,business,engineers, pharmacists out in GA/RAA land -enjoying their 2nd career, and filling a part time niche.
happy days,
Newcastle Uni
hamiltonw old mate, if you live in Newcastle try your local uni
Bachelor of Science (Aviation) / Program Handbook / The University of Newcastle, Australia
I have studied at 3 universities in Australia (under-grad. and post-grad.) and have found them to be the best. PM if you like.
Do your degree as you are young and have time on your side. It will give you an understanding on how to analyse and critique information in a valid manner. Employers and the people you will work with like this style
Airlines (including where I work) are working towards employing more cadets with good academic qualifications and suitability to successfully train airline pilots in a procedural environment. Uni degrees help.
Companies all around the world (Aviation and otherwise) like employing aussies as they are educated and generally down to earth.
Good luck
Bachelor of Science (Aviation) / Program Handbook / The University of Newcastle, Australia
I have studied at 3 universities in Australia (under-grad. and post-grad.) and have found them to be the best. PM if you like.
Do your degree as you are young and have time on your side. It will give you an understanding on how to analyse and critique information in a valid manner. Employers and the people you will work with like this style
Airlines (including where I work) are working towards employing more cadets with good academic qualifications and suitability to successfully train airline pilots in a procedural environment. Uni degrees help.
Companies all around the world (Aviation and otherwise) like employing aussies as they are educated and generally down to earth.
Good luck
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4greens, but how far?
1 year of CPL + 2-3 years of charter flying
Or
3-4 years of uni with CPL included, then you are 2-3 years behind the one without the degree in terms of experience..
1 year of CPL + 2-3 years of charter flying
Or
3-4 years of uni with CPL included, then you are 2-3 years behind the one without the degree in terms of experience..
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That may be the case in the UK but it means nothing in Australia. Personally, as a professional pilot, I couldn't imagine anything worse than working in another field of aviation where I didn't fly. There are loads of good uni's with related courses that will be recognised by other sectors. The aviation degree's may help you with a post grad but from my understanding don't hold much credit and certainly don't hold their weight outside of aviation. You must research this before you apply.
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Will,
There is alot to be said for going local. Your whole support network is available to you during the course - that is unless you can be convinced that one uni is far far better than the rest.
As for whether or not to do a degree, I think what DominicYPGV said sums it up. You will be surprised at where it will be usefull in the future. I did a Business Degree and am now a full time pilot. The understandings I gained through the degree apply equally well to any job, the same will apply to your studies in an aviation degree - the topics covered are quite diverse, just referenced to aviation.
Also, I have yet to read anyone who has done the degree say it was a total waste of time.
Personally I think you are heading in the right direction for a career in aviation.
Good luck
There is alot to be said for going local. Your whole support network is available to you during the course - that is unless you can be convinced that one uni is far far better than the rest.
As for whether or not to do a degree, I think what DominicYPGV said sums it up. You will be surprised at where it will be usefull in the future. I did a Business Degree and am now a full time pilot. The understandings I gained through the degree apply equally well to any job, the same will apply to your studies in an aviation degree - the topics covered are quite diverse, just referenced to aviation.
Also, I have yet to read anyone who has done the degree say it was a total waste of time.
Personally I think you are heading in the right direction for a career in aviation.
Good luck
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I have a degree in aviation.
If my airline closed tomorrow what would I be qualified to do? Beg for a flying job with 1000 other pilots at the opposition or beg for a office job making 40k in an airline? Great.
If I had a trade I'd have multiple options available to me.
Another issue. Sometimes I have a lot of time off.. actually its quite often. If I had a trade I could be running a business on the side or picking up odd jobs here and there. I could also do most of the work at home or in my investment properties.
The difference between the yays vs the nays is that the nays don't have anything to sell. How do you know some of the posters here aren't involved in education with ulterior motives?
You choose. I did the degree, did the training with bells whistles did the GA did the turbo props, did the crap jet job now I have a good jet job. 15 years of right moves and mistakes. A degree before getting a job was one of the mistakes.
Get the trade do the training get a flying job then do the degree.
If my airline closed tomorrow what would I be qualified to do? Beg for a flying job with 1000 other pilots at the opposition or beg for a office job making 40k in an airline? Great.
If I had a trade I'd have multiple options available to me.
Another issue. Sometimes I have a lot of time off.. actually its quite often. If I had a trade I could be running a business on the side or picking up odd jobs here and there. I could also do most of the work at home or in my investment properties.
The difference between the yays vs the nays is that the nays don't have anything to sell. How do you know some of the posters here aren't involved in education with ulterior motives?
You choose. I did the degree, did the training with bells whistles did the GA did the turbo props, did the crap jet job now I have a good jet job. 15 years of right moves and mistakes. A degree before getting a job was one of the mistakes.
Get the trade do the training get a flying job then do the degree.
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It's not that big a jump from aviation to IT. Do an aviation degree, then maybe some post grad IT studies.
Later, when flying for the airlines with days off, do IT consulting for extra bucks.
Main thing is to get an initial bachelors degree, it's easy from there.
Later, when flying for the airlines with days off, do IT consulting for extra bucks.
Main thing is to get an initial bachelors degree, it's easy from there.
Although Mr. Hat is 10 - 15 years ahead of myself and from what I can tell most of the posters here, and is therefore well worth a listen, everyone is different.
I could think of nothing worse than working a trade (maybe AME/LAME but not plumbing etc.) sorry. It's not for me.
I was talking to a guy who transferred out of my degree at the end of our first year to do construction management he got one and a half semesters of subjects knocked off his degree from RPL. Not bad and a lot more than I expected!
So maybe the Aviation degree is more useful than we think? As has been said though any qualification is only useful if you are using it. If you get a teaching degree, work in aviation for 10 years and decide you are over it, you will have to do a decent bit of training to make use of that teaching degree.
I'm 10 - 15 years behind Mr. Hat, maybe I will come to his realisation but personally for me and at the current state of affairs I am happy with where I am.
I could think of nothing worse than working a trade (maybe AME/LAME but not plumbing etc.) sorry. It's not for me.
I was talking to a guy who transferred out of my degree at the end of our first year to do construction management he got one and a half semesters of subjects knocked off his degree from RPL. Not bad and a lot more than I expected!
So maybe the Aviation degree is more useful than we think? As has been said though any qualification is only useful if you are using it. If you get a teaching degree, work in aviation for 10 years and decide you are over it, you will have to do a decent bit of training to make use of that teaching degree.
I'm 10 - 15 years behind Mr. Hat, maybe I will come to his realisation but personally for me and at the current state of affairs I am happy with where I am.