Bachelor of aviation (flying) degree
A degree can also be earned while waiting in your hotel on charter. In fact with 2 years industry experience and your ATPL subjects under your belt you can skip the whole bachelor's degree and zoom straight to a Masters at some UNI's. 1 Year online is worth somewhere between 300-600hrs for most first GA jobs. Year 2 should get you into a light twin doing 500-700hrs, and by year three you should be able to walk straight into the RH seat of a regional (if not before). OR in that same time frame you could pick up a BAvi and have 250ish hrs.
Pilot A:250 hrs + BAvi
Pilot B: 1500 hrs RH Seat Turbo Prop.
Average time to command in a regional seems to move around a bit but 3 years is a good guide line. So by the time Pilot A gets a gig in a regional Pilot B would be a Captain. Average pay Difference FO-Capt. in a Regional $40K ish. So after 3 more years Pilot B is a head $75K and 3/4 through the tax deductible education expense that is the Masters of Aviation.
Pilot A:250 hrs + BAvi
Pilot B: 1500 hrs RH Seat Turbo Prop.
Average time to command in a regional seems to move around a bit but 3 years is a good guide line. So by the time Pilot A gets a gig in a regional Pilot B would be a Captain. Average pay Difference FO-Capt. in a Regional $40K ish. So after 3 more years Pilot B is a head $75K and 3/4 through the tax deductible education expense that is the Masters of Aviation.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Brisvegas
Age: 46
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have an Aviation degree. I have a job in an airline. I can tell you that with the future of this industry so bleak, I wish I had done a degree or a trade in something else. I have no fallback position and will be forced to lower my expectations of this industry just so I can pay the mortgage.
If Joyce gets his way, in 5 years joining an airline will no longer be an option for many.
Go flying by all means, its a great job, but, qualify yourself in something else.
I wish I had.
If Joyce gets his way, in 5 years joining an airline will no longer be an option for many.
Go flying by all means, its a great job, but, qualify yourself in something else.
I wish I had.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: The South 40
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The difficulty with this descision is that it is a vocational degree where you don't need the degree to have the vocation!
So it becomes personal choice, depending on how much you value the education / learning, above the need-for-speed to the flight deck.
For those of you who have done the degree, I applaud you
. Although you may not think much of it at the moment. I suggest that should the ship-hit-the-span in the future that your degree will hold you in good stead for many endeavours. It may not currently be appreciated in the aviation community, I would suggest that it is outside aviation. Do an experiment: apply for jobs as an 'ex-pilot' with and without a degree ( no, I'm not talking about trade type jobs). See what you can get...
So it becomes personal choice, depending on how much you value the education / learning, above the need-for-speed to the flight deck.
For those of you who have done the degree, I applaud you
. Although you may not think much of it at the moment. I suggest that should the ship-hit-the-span in the future that your degree will hold you in good stead for many endeavours. It may not currently be appreciated in the aviation community, I would suggest that it is outside aviation. Do an experiment: apply for jobs as an 'ex-pilot' with and without a degree ( no, I'm not talking about trade type jobs). See what you can get...
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: The Land Downunder
Posts: 765
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would agree with the above, don't tie yourself to aviation. If you are going to do a degree why not in another area. I did a LLb (hons) part time over six years completing the study mostly on nightstops and long flights. My thinking was that if the airline industry went through another crisis (which it will) atleast I would have a fall back position to something else. Why restrict yourself to aviaition, if you are interested in airline management why not do a business management diploma or degree, then you can apply it across a number of industries.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the other hand though, I'd suggest that if you're already qualified in something (that is, you didn't go for aviation straight out of school), then by all means do an aviation degree as a means of either paying for your training, for the additional learnings involved, or simply for the social aspect.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry guys been there done that. Bad news, when it came to the crunch the degree wasn't acknowledged by anyone outside of aviation. Without sounding like a brag my grade point average for the degree was right on the upper limit. The "bells and whistles" I refer to were academic awards. They were useless to. So it wasn't due to poor performance. Just that the degree in aviation wasn't worth anything when it came to getting a job outside of the industry.
Tempo is someone that is in the same boat as myself he is you in 5-7 years.
Tempo is someone that is in the same boat as myself he is you in 5-7 years.
Moderator
apply for jobs as an 'ex-pilot' with and without a degree
The couple of folk whose applications have come onto my desk didn't get any further .. simply because they had nil experience relevant to the position on offer.
I did a LLb (hons) part time over six years
Full marks and a very vocational qualification - presumably you then did your Articles and so on so that you could practice on the side. Even without being on the Roll the commercial world has numerous openings for such folk.
I'm sure he won't mind his name being taken in vain in the post .. John Maitland, whom many on this board will know, did much the same thing some years ago. I guess he was in his 40s at the time (he will, no doubt, beat me to a pulp if I'm too far wrong on that point - I certainly can recall the period when he was doing the degree). Now, he's a good example - extensive GA, ATO, and now has a very active legal practice. Not sure if he still does much flying as it's several years since I last spoke with him.
The couple of folk whose applications have come onto my desk didn't get any further .. simply because they had nil experience relevant to the position on offer.
I did a LLb (hons) part time over six years
Full marks and a very vocational qualification - presumably you then did your Articles and so on so that you could practice on the side. Even without being on the Roll the commercial world has numerous openings for such folk.
I'm sure he won't mind his name being taken in vain in the post .. John Maitland, whom many on this board will know, did much the same thing some years ago. I guess he was in his 40s at the time (he will, no doubt, beat me to a pulp if I'm too far wrong on that point - I certainly can recall the period when he was doing the degree). Now, he's a good example - extensive GA, ATO, and now has a very active legal practice. Not sure if he still does much flying as it's several years since I last spoke with him.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: The Land Downunder
Posts: 765
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John,
I completed the law degree after alot of research and deciding that it is a wide ranging degree that doesn't limit someone to the 'practicing' side of legal work. Now with a Qualifying Law Degree under my belt I have always been of the opinion that if the sh*t ever hits the fan I will head back to the UK and finish off my 'practicals' to enable myself to enter the legal profession. I have always fancied Aviation Law, the way the industry is going there could be a fair amount of work in this area.
I completed the law degree after alot of research and deciding that it is a wide ranging degree that doesn't limit someone to the 'practicing' side of legal work. Now with a Qualifying Law Degree under my belt I have always been of the opinion that if the sh*t ever hits the fan I will head back to the UK and finish off my 'practicals' to enable myself to enter the legal profession. I have always fancied Aviation Law, the way the industry is going there could be a fair amount of work in this area.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: The South 40
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The couple of folk whose applications have come onto my desk didn't get any further .. simply because they had nil experience relevant to the position on offer.
I appreciate that, but lack of skills aside, would you look more kindly on an applicant with a degree than one without? Assuming all else was equal.
I ask as when I was employing (outside aviation) I would look on a degree as comparative to an amount of experience (not compensation for a total lack of experience), just maybe enough to tip the balance on the selection. For a position that might require analysis and innovative thought it was almost an essential pre-req (note I said "almost")
Given the amount of negativity regarding an airline career at the moment, I would think that taking an extra year to put further qualifications under your belt would be a great idea?
just maybe enough to tip the balance on the selection
For example, If two Wannabees both start at the same time:
W1: Flying School
W2: UNI
1st year
W1: 150hrs CPL+ CMEIR
W2: 0hrs, 1 year UNI
2nd Year
W1: 600hrs
W2: 0hrs, 2 Years Uni
3rd Year
W1: 1000hrs, 400Twin
W2: 150hrs CPL+ CMEIR + 3yrs UNI
So at the start of Year 4 both pilots go for the same job and...
W1: 1000hrs, 400Twin
W2: 150hrs, BAvi
The degree is only then useful if you are going head to head with a pilot fresh out of flying school with no degree.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Good old Melbourne
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't say much about the general aviation aspect of your post (although I do think it is exaggerated), but a university student certainly does not graduate with only 150 hrs:
But the thing is, the majority of people here who are advocating for the attainment of a university degree aren't saying that it's for the application process per se, but rather it provides a suitable backup plan should something happen.
Whether this is through a B Aviation (Flying) and a Masters in another discipline, or a degree in a completely unrelated discipline, I wouldn't say that a degree is
There are clearly many other benefits of higher education.
Students will attain a minimum of Commercial Pilots Licence (CPL) with a Multi Engine Command Instrument Rating and a Air Transport Pilots Licence (frozen) on completion of the degree with advanced options available including Instructor Rating, Multi Crew course or a research project.
Students complete their training during block release from the academic program and will accrue up to 240 hours of actual and 60 hours of simulator-based flying.
Source: University of New South Wales - School of Aviation - Undergraduate Information
Students complete their training during block release from the academic program and will accrue up to 240 hours of actual and 60 hours of simulator-based flying.
Source: University of New South Wales - School of Aviation - Undergraduate Information
Whether this is through a B Aviation (Flying) and a Masters in another discipline, or a degree in a completely unrelated discipline, I wouldn't say that a degree is
only then useful if you are going head to head with a pilot fresh out of flying school with no degree (emphasis added).
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what is that "back up" again? Exactly what job outside of working in aviation are you going to do? Very strange to be getting a back up to something you don't actually have and using time up in a time critical industry to do so. Sort of cart before the horse and defeating the purpose of the "back up" in the first place. If you are going to get a back up get a back up that will actually work!
I think there are 3 types of people that get an aviation degree before attaining employment in the industry.
1. People that really don't want to leave home and are hoping they might somehow jag a job in an airline or a regional in their home town with the degree card.
2. People that get sold the spiel easily also because lets face it going out into the bush with 200hrs is actually a little intimidating to say the least.
3. People that don't really understand the industry and think its comparable say to law or medicine where a degree is an obvious must.
I was in between 2 and 3.
If by accident a Captain and I get talking and it comes up that I did a degree in aviation there is often either a puzzled look or a moment of silence. I think maybe 1 in 20 say yeah I've got one to. The same number have a degree in another area and about triple have a trade roughly speaking. You work it out. We're often the same age flying a shiny jet.
Look up Confirmation bias.
I think there are 3 types of people that get an aviation degree before attaining employment in the industry.
1. People that really don't want to leave home and are hoping they might somehow jag a job in an airline or a regional in their home town with the degree card.
2. People that get sold the spiel easily also because lets face it going out into the bush with 200hrs is actually a little intimidating to say the least.
3. People that don't really understand the industry and think its comparable say to law or medicine where a degree is an obvious must.
I was in between 2 and 3.
If by accident a Captain and I get talking and it comes up that I did a degree in aviation there is often either a puzzled look or a moment of silence. I think maybe 1 in 20 say yeah I've got one to. The same number have a degree in another area and about triple have a trade roughly speaking. You work it out. We're often the same age flying a shiny jet.
Look up Confirmation bias.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 3rd Jun 2011 at 08:54.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Canberra, ACT
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to add to rmcdonal's post. His figures are all well and good, but the assumption made is that you commence your flying training course with all monies ready (or at least a sizable portion available). When I graduated from school, most of my classmates would have struggled to afford a near new barina, let alone CPL costs, which means you may be required to work full-time to fund your training - this slows things down. If you are a 'career-changer' I agree, an Aviation degree is a red-herring, however for the 'average' 19 year old school leaver an additional 1 year commitment, to gain tertiary qualifications in what could potentially be a 40+ year career, is sensible for those who want to further their education.
I will admit though, those who do choose to offset their flying training costs will have a sizable 'loan' hanging over their heads, this may not suit everyone. You will be required to begin paying this back once you start earning above a given threshold ($47,196 for the 2011-12 income year), at a rate starting at 4% (heck even union fees take 1% of your income) of your income, which I think is rather gentle, and a rather small price to pay (if you'll pardon the pun).
I will admit though, those who do choose to offset their flying training costs will have a sizable 'loan' hanging over their heads, this may not suit everyone. You will be required to begin paying this back once you start earning above a given threshold ($47,196 for the 2011-12 income year), at a rate starting at 4% (heck even union fees take 1% of your income) of your income, which I think is rather gentle, and a rather small price to pay (if you'll pardon the pun).
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Canberra, ACT
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what is that "back up" again? Exactly what job outside of working in aviation are you going to do?
The "back-up" that I believe people may be referring to is with regard to using your Bachelor of Aviation, as entry into suitable post-graduate study in an alternative field. Many may also find that their B.Av may entitle them to RPL in other fields at undergrad level.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah I don't buy the reasoning. Do you want to be a pilot or not? Who does a degree for their career with the idea of then doing another degree in another area just incase the first career falls over? Wouldn't you just do the degree in the other area first?
The second degree won't be on hecs either. Upfront full fees!
By the time you get to an airline you might just find that you've got very little time available and steam left. I have an extremely intelligent friend that has had things go wrong. Cap and Jacket with 150k+ one day unemployed the next. He is exactly the scenario you talk of. He has a Bavn. I asked him if he was going to go back and do another degree to enter another profession. His reply "I'm spent mate". "I couldn't for the life of me turn up to lectures and pretend to be enthusiastic and interested". This is a straight 7's guy: very academic.
You cannot imagine how much energy goes into this career, you just can't fathom it at the newbie uni level. You also just can't fathom how risky a career choice it is. Looking back at my decision to get the degree I look at it as the most ludicrous uninformed thing I've ever done.
I to had things go wrong years ago and guess what? I was the same a smy mate. Had I done a degree in something useful or a trade I would have been in a much better position.
The second degree won't be on hecs either. Upfront full fees!
By the time you get to an airline you might just find that you've got very little time available and steam left. I have an extremely intelligent friend that has had things go wrong. Cap and Jacket with 150k+ one day unemployed the next. He is exactly the scenario you talk of. He has a Bavn. I asked him if he was going to go back and do another degree to enter another profession. His reply "I'm spent mate". "I couldn't for the life of me turn up to lectures and pretend to be enthusiastic and interested". This is a straight 7's guy: very academic.
You cannot imagine how much energy goes into this career, you just can't fathom it at the newbie uni level. You also just can't fathom how risky a career choice it is. Looking back at my decision to get the degree I look at it as the most ludicrous uninformed thing I've ever done.
I to had things go wrong years ago and guess what? I was the same a smy mate. Had I done a degree in something useful or a trade I would have been in a much better position.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Good old Melbourne
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what is that "back up" again? Exactly what job outside of working in aviation are you going to do? Very strange to be getting a back up to something you don't actually have and using time up in a time critical industry to do so. Sort of cart before the horse and defeating the purpose of the "back up" in the first place. If you are going to get a back up get a back up that will actually work!
I think there are 3 types of people that get an aviation degree before attaining employment in the industry.
I think there are 3 types of people that get an aviation degree before attaining employment in the industry.
I should probably also make it clear to you that I would never undertake an aviation degree, but I don't think people should necessarily reject an aviation degree as worthless. Some students may want to just experience university life.
Who does a degree for their career with the idea of then doing another degree in another area just incase the first career falls over? Wouldn't you just do the degree in the other area first?
The second degree won't be on hecs either. Upfront full fees!
Do you want to be a pilot or not?
Like I said, I wouldn't do an aviation degree, but you seem to generally be against all degrees which is the only reason I'm supporting the other side (if you want to call it that). I
Look up Confirmation bias.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, I did. But perhaps you could explain to me why this doesn't apply to you as well?
For those of you that want to be Airline Pilots. The state of play is this: Alan Joyce, Bruce Buchanan and co at the moment are working very hard to devise a way to circumvent paying EBA conditions and avoid the "heavy
" hand of FWA. This means contracts, this means casuals, this means employing people from impoverished countries on slave wages as they do with the flight attendants for J* already (yes they do sell themselves on overnights when in Australia to make extra cash!). If you don't get your skates on and get a job under the EBA of one of the Airlines or regionals (Qlink/Skywest forget the rest) and the AJ BB plan goes ahead you will be like the regional pilots in America that live in squalor. You have one hope and that is one Nick Xenophon and his Senate Inquiry. Don't bet on it though! AJ and BB are wining and dining the big end of town!Signing off good luck all. Its Friday I need a beer. I just did a 14 hour day kids and now 2 hours of pprune! No wonder Mrs Hat loses it at pprune and the Hat! Come on mods wheres my medal?
! Cheerio.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can somebody explain to me how the FEE HELP scheme works. I'm not familiar with this. It might help me understand some of the posters points of view here.
Can you get "HELP" if you go to the local aero club?
Can you get "HELP" if you go to the local aero club?
Join Date: May 2011
Location: The South 40
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If only life was so stable as to allow only one career for everyone.
Those of us for whom life is a bit more turbulent, and have had more than one career, probably look at things differently.....
.. As pilots we all look for alternates and backup plans just in case. I see this as no different. Who can say what opportunities may become available to you in the future? Do an MBA and go managememt? Can't be worse than the current crop!!
Mr Hat, I wish you a long and prosperous career in your prefered profession, and I hope life's variables don't get in your way. If you manage this, then yes, I agree the degree was of no particlar benefit to your career path, at least for now.
Education a waste of time? No, not ever. There is an old saying along the lines of: "They can take everything from you but your education". Never turn down the opportunity for more, you never know if or when it might come in handy.
My opinion is just that, 'my opinion', do with it as you wish.
If you want more, you gotta pay for it! (I've got a degree which says I can do that!!
Those of us for whom life is a bit more turbulent, and have had more than one career, probably look at things differently.....
.. As pilots we all look for alternates and backup plans just in case. I see this as no different. Who can say what opportunities may become available to you in the future? Do an MBA and go managememt? Can't be worse than the current crop!!
Mr Hat, I wish you a long and prosperous career in your prefered profession, and I hope life's variables don't get in your way. If you manage this, then yes, I agree the degree was of no particlar benefit to your career path, at least for now.
Education a waste of time? No, not ever. There is an old saying along the lines of: "They can take everything from you but your education". Never turn down the opportunity for more, you never know if or when it might come in handy.
My opinion is just that, 'my opinion', do with it as you wish.
If you want more, you gotta pay for it! (I've got a degree which says I can do that!!