Bachelor of aviation (flying) degree
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Confirmation bias alive and well...
What I think is clear from this thread is those who have never been to university don't appreciate the immense educational, social, psychological and motivational benefits of going to university - aviation course or non-aviation course.
To anyone justifying three years of study for a "backup" please read my previous reply. As Mr Hat mentioned, if you don't keep your other skill set current it wont be much use to you.
Seabreeze
A reasonable degree (of any sort) will give a foundation on which to build further knowledge and expertise, and to learn more advanced techniques. This development process should go on for life. A Degree (or any other qualification) is just a starting point of professional development, not the end point.
There is no reason a person without a degree can't learn techniques, but that would depend very much on the complexity of the techniques, and the ability of that person to learn in a work environment where the emphasis is to get the immediate job done quickly. For example, optimisation is best learned though a set of structured university courses rather than dabbling in canned software while working full time.
There is no reason a person without a degree can't learn techniques, but that would depend very much on the complexity of the techniques, and the ability of that person to learn in a work environment where the emphasis is to get the immediate job done quickly. For example, optimisation is best learned though a set of structured university courses rather than dabbling in canned software while working full time.
Nkand:
All I have to say is why do the Qantas cadetship, Jetstar (partially because it isnt actually a degree, its an associates) make their cadets do degrees ? I wonder.. thats a hard one to figure out
Clearly its valued and will continue to be an upward trend.
Look at the Qantaslink traineeship criteria- Tertiary education/degree is a highly desirable component.
And the funniest quote of all:
I can tell you of two guys I know one who had a degree (was in Aviation) and one who didnt and both with the same experience- and the one with the degree got into the traineeship
DIVOSH!
P.S. But no, listen to these guys (Nkand, Jieunni, b_sta, etc), spend extra time and money doing a course which may well have a negative impact on your flying career.
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I'd say you've misunderstood what I've said. I'm well aware that an aviation degree as a supposed prerequisite is unlikely to assist one in specifically becoming a pilot, and I'd also absolutely agree with your statements that getting a non-aviation degree simply as a backup is a futile exercise. However, where a degree does come in handy is, as I already stated, through the development of an indepth education - the taught ability to critique, question, research and explore - the motivational benefits, the social experience, and the satisfaction of achieving a major goal in life for many people.
Personally, I know far more people who've attended university - not just in aviation - than haven't, and I can't think of one who's regretted it. Perhaps 18 year olds with stars in their eyes and promises of an FO job on a 74 may end up regretting attending, given an expectation of such instant, causative success, but for those attending university for the right reasons, it's hard to beat in terms of personal growth at any age.
My thoughts, specifically? Do the training to become a pilot, if that's what you want, then do a degree - whichever degree you think you'll enjoy or will assist you in some way - as an addition to broaden your own knowledge, perceptions and skills. Don't waste your time doing an aviation degree because you think it'll get you a job, and don't waste your time doing a non-aviation degree simply as a backup.
Personally, I know far more people who've attended university - not just in aviation - than haven't, and I can't think of one who's regretted it. Perhaps 18 year olds with stars in their eyes and promises of an FO job on a 74 may end up regretting attending, given an expectation of such instant, causative success, but for those attending university for the right reasons, it's hard to beat in terms of personal growth at any age.
My thoughts, specifically? Do the training to become a pilot, if that's what you want, then do a degree - whichever degree you think you'll enjoy or will assist you in some way - as an addition to broaden your own knowledge, perceptions and skills. Don't waste your time doing an aviation degree because you think it'll get you a job, and don't waste your time doing a non-aviation degree simply as a backup.
Last edited by b_sta; 7th Jun 2011 at 02:36.
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I was one of the guys who did the Qantas cadetship - now probably one of the youngest FOs and I did not get a university education. Take what you want from that, but it's quite clear that bypassing university education gets you into the airlines much faster.
However, it's much like a double-edged sword. If there was enough time in the world for what everyone wanted to do, I would have most probably done a history degree because that is where one of my interests lie. I do no think that there is also any doubt that university offers many of the other benefits that those who advocate for it are arguing i.e. professional development, social environment, networking, exchange, challenging etc
In terms of an aviation degree, I don't find any particular strong advantages of completing one, but if another field? Definitely. Jieunni makes a really good point about life-long learning but I bet there would be several raised eyebrows with the fact that you're doing a combined law degree at a university that had a UAI (or whatever it's called these days, ATAR I think?) of 99.7 - the industry is becoming worse and worse. From the pilots that I've talked to, they wouldn't recommend this to their children. You could easily do something else, earn bucket loads of money, whilst still enjoying the pleasures of aviation.
Just my two cents
However, it's much like a double-edged sword. If there was enough time in the world for what everyone wanted to do, I would have most probably done a history degree because that is where one of my interests lie. I do no think that there is also any doubt that university offers many of the other benefits that those who advocate for it are arguing i.e. professional development, social environment, networking, exchange, challenging etc
In terms of an aviation degree, I don't find any particular strong advantages of completing one, but if another field? Definitely. Jieunni makes a really good point about life-long learning but I bet there would be several raised eyebrows with the fact that you're doing a combined law degree at a university that had a UAI (or whatever it's called these days, ATAR I think?) of 99.7 - the industry is becoming worse and worse. From the pilots that I've talked to, they wouldn't recommend this to their children. You could easily do something else, earn bucket loads of money, whilst still enjoying the pleasures of aviation.
Just my two cents
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If you really want a degree there is nothing to stop you doing one ,[part time] AFTER you have a job in an airline. In fact you will credits for a large pecentage of an Aviation degree. Many pilots have done degrees of various types after years in an airline.
Joining an airline one year apart may mean many seniority numbers and that may be the difference between good and less good times for the next 40 years!
For eg: those that joined Qantas one year after me cannot get to an aircraft type where I have middle seniority!
Times may change but in many ways degrees are only for snob value! I have been looked down on by some of these snobs for not having a degree [by Batch Arts FFS!]and not having the benefits of going to Uni, thankfully I don't care and would prefer to be earning three times their salary!
[unfortunately that is changing in this industry too!]
Joining an airline one year apart may mean many seniority numbers and that may be the difference between good and less good times for the next 40 years!
For eg: those that joined Qantas one year after me cannot get to an aircraft type where I have middle seniority!
Times may change but in many ways degrees are only for snob value! I have been looked down on by some of these snobs for not having a degree [by Batch Arts FFS!
]and not having the benefits of going to Uni, thankfully I don't care and would prefer to be earning three times their salary! [unfortunately that is changing in this industry too!]
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I don't think it is for the snob value anymore, if there were ever such a thing. I think you would be very hard pressed to find a job without a degree in fields such as law and medicine (both of which it is a requirement), architecture, engineering etc
You were probably looked down upon because you couldn't spell the first word of their qualification and with regards to doing a degree during employment? I guess it could be possible if you were SH, but I know I wouldn't be effed to get out a textbook whilst I am jetlagged during stopover and study. Also, whilst you may be earning three times more than a B Arts, there are many degrees that offer avenues to careers that make our salaries laughable (given what we also have to go through as well + medical + checks)
I think it is quite clear that you under-appreciate the value of university.
You were probably looked down upon because you couldn't spell the first word of their qualification and with regards to doing a degree during employment? I guess it could be possible if you were SH, but I know I wouldn't be effed to get out a textbook whilst I am jetlagged during stopover and study. Also, whilst you may be earning three times more than a B Arts, there are many degrees that offer avenues to careers that make our salaries laughable (given what we also have to go through as well + medical + checks)
I think it is quite clear that you under-appreciate the value of university.
Will, I did a degree with Swinburne and had a great time! got to party and play up whilst i also learnt some great stuff and met some top people who are still great friends... With it being so hard trying to find work these days maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to give it a crack and wait for 'the next dip in the roller coaster'... However some tips for if you do decide to do it...
1. If the flying has anything to do with 'Oxford' don't do the training with them... Go to some other mob that has a solid base and good reputation with older more experienced instructors... Oxford market their product well, yet the fact of the matter is that the guys that will be teaching you with Oxford are only fresh CPL's themselves and haven't yet grasped flying either... on top of that the rates which they charge for the aircraft hire is shocking (way to much icing on the cake!) I know for a fact, (because i was so shocked myself) that you can hire a twin at other schools for less then what they charge for a single! and if your planning on going into the charter world I think an old 'gas and steam' twin would benefit you a lot more in the long run...
2. If your course includes ATPL subjects see if you can skip it and go do the study with AFT in the sunny coast. The cost of one ATPL subject at uni is just as expensive as the 4 major ones with Nath... I know at Swinburne if you complete the CASA ATPL exam that is more then enough for the university to pass that component
3. Network as much as you can it won't hurt you in any way just help you if anything.
4. Just enjoy.
If you have any other questions mate feel free to inbox me otherwise have fun!
1. If the flying has anything to do with 'Oxford' don't do the training with them... Go to some other mob that has a solid base and good reputation with older more experienced instructors... Oxford market their product well, yet the fact of the matter is that the guys that will be teaching you with Oxford are only fresh CPL's themselves and haven't yet grasped flying either... on top of that the rates which they charge for the aircraft hire is shocking (way to much icing on the cake!) I know for a fact, (because i was so shocked myself) that you can hire a twin at other schools for less then what they charge for a single! and if your planning on going into the charter world I think an old 'gas and steam' twin would benefit you a lot more in the long run...
2. If your course includes ATPL subjects see if you can skip it and go do the study with AFT in the sunny coast. The cost of one ATPL subject at uni is just as expensive as the 4 major ones with Nath... I know at Swinburne if you complete the CASA ATPL exam that is more then enough for the university to pass that component
3. Network as much as you can it won't hurt you in any way just help you if anything.
4. Just enjoy.
If you have any other questions mate feel free to inbox me otherwise have fun!
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Flyhigh,
I can spell OK! Have many mates in medicine etc and of course they need degrees, that is how their profession is trained. We are talking about aviation degrees here, almost useless!
Of most of the B Arts crowd, I wouldn't piss on them, a waste of [my] taxpayers money.
How many of the richest 1000 people in Australia have degrees?
You are correct, I do under-appreciate the value of university.
I can spell OK! Have many mates in medicine etc and of course they need degrees, that is how their profession is trained. We are talking about aviation degrees here, almost useless!
Of most of the B Arts crowd, I wouldn't piss on them, a waste of [my] taxpayers money.
How many of the richest 1000 people in Australia have degrees?
You are correct, I do under-appreciate the value of university.
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Of course, I agree - almost useless. But only on what is learnt ie the subjects taught.
I would think that many of the top 1000 richest Australians would have degrees.
With respect to the rest of the world, there are only the odd few we hear about like Bill Gates who drop out of Harvard and become self-made billionaires
I would think that many of the top 1000 richest Australians would have degrees.
With respect to the rest of the world, there are only the odd few we hear about like Bill Gates who drop out of Harvard and become self-made billionaires
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Already done a Business degre - looking to become a pilot
Hey,
I'm 23, already done a business degree at UTS and worked in finance. Always wanted to be a pilot and after much deliberation i've decided to go ahead and do it! I do value a good education and enjoyed the whole university experience but wondering if it's worth doing again to become a pilot?! If it puts me ahead at all i'll consider doing it but just seems like the Bachelor of Aviation is for people that want to become a pilot and also want the whole university experience.
Any advice/thoughts would be very much appreciated. Thanks!
I'm 23, already done a business degree at UTS and worked in finance. Always wanted to be a pilot and after much deliberation i've decided to go ahead and do it! I do value a good education and enjoyed the whole university experience but wondering if it's worth doing again to become a pilot?! If it puts me ahead at all i'll consider doing it but just seems like the Bachelor of Aviation is for people that want to become a pilot and also want the whole university experience.
Any advice/thoughts would be very much appreciated. Thanks!
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Always wanted to be a pilot and after much deliberation i've decided to go ahead and do it! I do value a good education and enjoyed the whole university experience but wondering if it's worth doing again to become a pilot?!
Fly.
As Biggles said, your own degree is a good one; you don't need another.
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uni
Hi
The situation I am in is I am 28 and want to start a career in the aviation industry, which i regret not doing straight from school but I do have a trade behind me and a whole lot of knowledge and life experience.
The issue is I have a home loan now and to pay upfront the costs involved to get my CPL I would have to sell my place and rent until I can buy again in the future.
That is why I am considering either bachelor of aviation at Griffith or Swinburne Uni mainly because i can defer the flight training costs using hecs and fee help and have minimum initial out of pocket expense.
What are peoples thoughts? I know my age is an issue but I am at a point in my life that I want to be in a career I love for the next 30 + years in my life, even if I don't make excessive amounts of money.
Cheers in advance for the input.
The situation I am in is I am 28 and want to start a career in the aviation industry, which i regret not doing straight from school but I do have a trade behind me and a whole lot of knowledge and life experience.
The issue is I have a home loan now and to pay upfront the costs involved to get my CPL I would have to sell my place and rent until I can buy again in the future.
That is why I am considering either bachelor of aviation at Griffith or Swinburne Uni mainly because i can defer the flight training costs using hecs and fee help and have minimum initial out of pocket expense.
What are peoples thoughts? I know my age is an issue but I am at a point in my life that I want to be in a career I love for the next 30 + years in my life, even if I don't make excessive amounts of money.
Cheers in advance for the input.
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You don't have to go to University to access FEE-HELP. I'd recommend checking out TAFE courses run by smaller flying schools.
I recently completed a Bachelor of Aviation at university and put a lot of my flight training on FEE-HELP. The flying school I went to was too big and didn't really give a stuff about my progress, there were 2 month long gaps in my training due to shortages of instructors.
I've since moved to a smaller school and I'm progressing faster than ever and enjoying my training a million times more than I was at the University's flying school. The smaller school I'm at now have a TAFE course with access to FEE-HELP. If only I had known that 3 years ago, it would have saved me a lot of time, money and headaches.
I recently completed a Bachelor of Aviation at university and put a lot of my flight training on FEE-HELP. The flying school I went to was too big and didn't really give a stuff about my progress, there were 2 month long gaps in my training due to shortages of instructors.
I've since moved to a smaller school and I'm progressing faster than ever and enjoying my training a million times more than I was at the University's flying school. The smaller school I'm at now have a TAFE course with access to FEE-HELP. If only I had known that 3 years ago, it would have saved me a lot of time, money and headaches.
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Would you have any more information or know where i can get it regarding tafe courses approved for vet fee help?
Ive tried searching tafe's etc but cannot find anything. Is it only offered in certain states? I am in qld and was considering Swinburne uni as it is only 3 years where Griffith up here is 4.
What is your feedback on the Bachelor of Aviation?
Thanks for the reply.
Ive tried searching tafe's etc but cannot find anything. Is it only offered in certain states? I am in qld and was considering Swinburne uni as it is only 3 years where Griffith up here is 4.
What is your feedback on the Bachelor of Aviation?
Thanks for the reply.
I think UNSW Aviation offers a Bachelor of Aviation with Hecs-Help and a concurrent Graduate Diploma of Flying with Fee-Help. You have to meet academic entry requirements of some sort.
Having up-front loans is great but they have to be paid back... eventually.
By the way VET Fee-Help and Uni Fee-Help have different requirements in terms of up-front and deferred costs
SB
Having up-front loans is great but they have to be paid back... eventually.
By the way VET Fee-Help and Uni Fee-Help have different requirements in terms of up-front and deferred costs
SB
Last edited by Seabreeze; 24th Aug 2012 at 07:38. Reason: can't spell
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Oh dear, I hope I haven't gotten my facts wrong.
Looks like VET FEE-HELP doesn't cover CERT I - IV, which is what the CPL is usually under. It's just a matter of finding a place that has CPL included under a diploma or graduate certificate.
I thought Royal Vic Aero Club had access to FEE-HELP, but it looks like that's only for Instructor and Instrument rating.
Here's a list of all the places that are approved VET. Not all of them are aviation, but it might help. Providers that offer Commonwealth assistance - Study Assist
Giving them a ring to enquire about courses can't hurt, if it's a good school they'll be more than happy to help to give you info.
My university experience was good and bad. Good points included making a big network of friends who I'm still mates with after finishing uni, and getting a nice overview of all the parts of aviation, like how an airline runs as a business, air traffic control, aircraft design, etc.
The bad part was trying to juggle a university degree as well as flying as well as a job to pay for rent, food and those damn charts, books, exams, uniform, headset and landing and ILS fees.
Some subjects sucked as well, who wants to constantly pump out assignments on complex numbers and matrices or the mathematical formulas behind gas turbine engines or calculate the stress and forces in a beam that has a hole drilled in it or do a 20,000 word group assignment when you have a nav the next day? Uni + Flying = hard if you value sleeping.
Really bad points included the constant battle with the flying school about how I wanted to have weekly lessons to get my flying done instead of having 4-8 week gaps because my instructor was 'busy' teaching the cadets. Endless phone calls, emails and meetings and no one could seem to fix that for me. What was meant to be 2 years of flying (getting to CPL) dragged out to 3.5 years.
A lot of people I studied with ended up hating how big and unorganised the flying school was. It can zap your motivation pretty quick when a simple thing like getting a flying lesson booked is near impossible.
I didn't study at RMIT so I'm not sure what their course is like, if you're trying to save time this one looks really quick and cuts out all the university assignment stuff?
C6010 - Diploma of Air Transport (Airline Pilot) - RMIT
Other advice: Look at scholarships. There are ones available for accommodation and all types of wacky stuff.
Looks like VET FEE-HELP doesn't cover CERT I - IV, which is what the CPL is usually under. It's just a matter of finding a place that has CPL included under a diploma or graduate certificate.
I thought Royal Vic Aero Club had access to FEE-HELP, but it looks like that's only for Instructor and Instrument rating.
Here's a list of all the places that are approved VET. Not all of them are aviation, but it might help. Providers that offer Commonwealth assistance - Study Assist
Giving them a ring to enquire about courses can't hurt, if it's a good school they'll be more than happy to help to give you info.
My university experience was good and bad. Good points included making a big network of friends who I'm still mates with after finishing uni, and getting a nice overview of all the parts of aviation, like how an airline runs as a business, air traffic control, aircraft design, etc.
The bad part was trying to juggle a university degree as well as flying as well as a job to pay for rent, food and those damn charts, books, exams, uniform, headset and landing and ILS fees.
Some subjects sucked as well, who wants to constantly pump out assignments on complex numbers and matrices or the mathematical formulas behind gas turbine engines or calculate the stress and forces in a beam that has a hole drilled in it or do a 20,000 word group assignment when you have a nav the next day? Uni + Flying = hard if you value sleeping.
Really bad points included the constant battle with the flying school about how I wanted to have weekly lessons to get my flying done instead of having 4-8 week gaps because my instructor was 'busy' teaching the cadets. Endless phone calls, emails and meetings and no one could seem to fix that for me. What was meant to be 2 years of flying (getting to CPL) dragged out to 3.5 years.
A lot of people I studied with ended up hating how big and unorganised the flying school was. It can zap your motivation pretty quick when a simple thing like getting a flying lesson booked is near impossible.
I didn't study at RMIT so I'm not sure what their course is like, if you're trying to save time this one looks really quick and cuts out all the university assignment stuff?
C6010 - Diploma of Air Transport (Airline Pilot) - RMIT
Other advice: Look at scholarships. There are ones available for accommodation and all types of wacky stuff.
