Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA
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Too many run-on sentences, buddy.
Originally Posted by redhawk37
You are kidding yourself if you think that these kind of statements are clever or show you to be a leader in any way. When will you wake up that we are one company? The opertaional staff,managers, exec's, everybody contibutes and, for the most part, the higher you get in any organisation the more complex the problems become and the more they involve people. Mate, I started as an apprentice and I can tell you, each step along the way the problems become more difficult and always involve compromise. Sometimes you don't like the compromises you have to make but make them you must. Quit bagging the people with other ideas, supervisors, managers and execs. You might think you have a monopoly on knowing what is the best for the company but I have some bad news for you. We will never become the great company we deserve to be until this negative and divisive thinking changes. It serves only the politicians among us who "divide to thrive" and we all know who they are...
At the same time, management are beholden to the engineers to: communicate their plans and motivations properly with them; to ensure they listen to and actively seek out input from below; and to act in good faith and the best interests of all stakeholders (employees, shareholders, the industry regulator, those to whom the company owes a social obligation, etc).
The engineers - and apparently many other operational staff - feel that management have failed in all three of those obligations. Management in fact may (may) have fulfilled the second and third - but without properly communicating that fact it will be lost on everyone anyway. The engineers feel that they've given management (at all levels) the benefit of the doubt time and again in the past decade and followed their directions in good faith only to be left feeling disillusioned and betrayed. That is a failure of management. It's up to management now to repair the "bridge of trust", fair or not.
It seems you're suggesting all Qantas operational staff should sit back and allow management to guide the company where they will without complaint. I infer a suggestion that to disagree with management is to be "anti-company" or somehow treacherous. I'd suggest that dissent is every true patriot's duty. There are many historical examples where leaders have, by incompetence or malice, led their followers to destruction. Enron is a prime example. If more employees had taken a stand and opposed the actions of management then the collapse may have been averted, or at least the effects mitigated. The engineers have a duty to oppose management here, where they see the actions as hurting the company as a whole - including employees. Management in turn have a duty to listen to the engineers' concerns, then either communicate why the engineers' fears are unfounded, or take the criticism on board and fix the problems.
being a clever, articulate and experienced engineer doesnt buy you respect from anybody
I still remember how those types dominated the company when we were govt owned and they would have led us into distinction long ago.
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Redhawk,
The reason SP cannot tell us more than 20% of what is going on
is that the snakes among us will run straight to management and
tell them what our plans are.Sad but true.
Secondly, The time for talk is over. dont cry because people are
anti your views. We took a vote remember. It was 80% in favor
of taking PIA.
Last time I looked that constituted a democracy.
So as a democratic vote took place and you lost, how about
you pick up your bat and ball and come play with the rest of us
and stop giving the exec a hard time for trying to achieve the result
they have been mandated to do by the membership.
Maintain the Rage
The reason SP cannot tell us more than 20% of what is going on
is that the snakes among us will run straight to management and
tell them what our plans are.Sad but true.
Secondly, The time for talk is over. dont cry because people are
anti your views. We took a vote remember. It was 80% in favor
of taking PIA.
Last time I looked that constituted a democracy.
So as a democratic vote took place and you lost, how about
you pick up your bat and ball and come play with the rest of us
and stop giving the exec a hard time for trying to achieve the result
they have been mandated to do by the membership.
Maintain the Rage
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RH37,
I'm fairly certain the Duke of Wellington DID NOT forcast his battle plans to Napoleon at Waterloo, so I'm also fairly sure the ALAEA has much the same intention of NOT broadcasting any tidbits that QF/QE management might sieze upon to the detriment of the cause.
And you can be sure that neither leader gave the full story to the front line troops either............
And MOST certainly not on a public forum where god only knows who is snooping for some intell.
D4
I'm fairly certain the Duke of Wellington DID NOT forcast his battle plans to Napoleon at Waterloo, so I'm also fairly sure the ALAEA has much the same intention of NOT broadcasting any tidbits that QF/QE management might sieze upon to the detriment of the cause.
And you can be sure that neither leader gave the full story to the front line troops either............
And MOST certainly not on a public forum where god only knows who is snooping for some intell.
D4
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Redhawk
People love the feeling that, from management down, we are in this together.
It is galling for people who are continually asked to do more with less and achieve it, that they have to fight for recompense. Whilst those above who have orchestrated the cost-cutting that directly affects the ability to do the job, reward themselves with large payrises.
Any idiot( I've done it) can find ways to cut and modify rosters to save a buck. At the end, does that justify a large payrise for me and nothing for the people who now have to work harder and smarter to attain the same outcome.
Now once I've done this what more can I do to justify my position,bring in more procedures, redefine rosters again etc etc.
As a manager you need to ask yourself.
Is what I am doing in the short/longterm benefit of the business?eg does short term pain justify long term gain.Is this sustainable?
Do I have the background and/or experience to make these decisions, and do I have the trust of the staff to carry them with me?
Am I ACTIVELY listening to the feedback I am getting? Have I set us on a path that is wrong and am loath to admit it due to personal consequences.
In a safety critical area like Aviation, it is always in the wash-up that phrases like ' Pilot pushed on into bad weather in hope'' Pilot continued with approach' ' Engineer was under time pressure so fitted a 'like-type' part' ' Controller missed incorrect readback '. Maybe management should apply this to their own decision making processes, and be self critical after the event.
In being an observer to this thread it seems that the engineers, besides the 5% payrise, are even more teed off about procedures and a lack of spares and training that are foisted upon them, that then slow down their ability to do the job.
Some of these procedures MAY be brought in to maximise safety, but management need to realise that they need to increase staffing, to attain the same result.
As for a lack of spares and training, that is shortsighted w@nk.
Do your friends in suits, count the wins AND losses ,or are they like gamblers who only ever tell you about the wins?
Lastly, if you want to take your staff with you, show them they will have a fair share in the spoils. Talking to a friend in business, who worked in Japan for years. He said the first person to fall on the sword at companies, over large stuff-ups, tended to be the CEO as the CEO took the line that he was ultimately responsible.It was called honour. The guys who did the fuel hedging get a geisha, the guys who are running QE should break out the Samurais.
P.S. Mech-prentice we must have been typing at the same time.
People love the feeling that, from management down, we are in this together.
It is galling for people who are continually asked to do more with less and achieve it, that they have to fight for recompense. Whilst those above who have orchestrated the cost-cutting that directly affects the ability to do the job, reward themselves with large payrises.
Any idiot( I've done it) can find ways to cut and modify rosters to save a buck. At the end, does that justify a large payrise for me and nothing for the people who now have to work harder and smarter to attain the same outcome.
Now once I've done this what more can I do to justify my position,bring in more procedures, redefine rosters again etc etc.
As a manager you need to ask yourself.
Is what I am doing in the short/longterm benefit of the business?eg does short term pain justify long term gain.Is this sustainable?
Do I have the background and/or experience to make these decisions, and do I have the trust of the staff to carry them with me?
Am I ACTIVELY listening to the feedback I am getting? Have I set us on a path that is wrong and am loath to admit it due to personal consequences.
In a safety critical area like Aviation, it is always in the wash-up that phrases like ' Pilot pushed on into bad weather in hope'' Pilot continued with approach' ' Engineer was under time pressure so fitted a 'like-type' part' ' Controller missed incorrect readback '. Maybe management should apply this to their own decision making processes, and be self critical after the event.
In being an observer to this thread it seems that the engineers, besides the 5% payrise, are even more teed off about procedures and a lack of spares and training that are foisted upon them, that then slow down their ability to do the job.
Some of these procedures MAY be brought in to maximise safety, but management need to realise that they need to increase staffing, to attain the same result.
As for a lack of spares and training, that is shortsighted w@nk.
Do your friends in suits, count the wins AND losses ,or are they like gamblers who only ever tell you about the wins?
Lastly, if you want to take your staff with you, show them they will have a fair share in the spoils. Talking to a friend in business, who worked in Japan for years. He said the first person to fall on the sword at companies, over large stuff-ups, tended to be the CEO as the CEO took the line that he was ultimately responsible.It was called honour. The guys who did the fuel hedging get a geisha, the guys who are running QE should break out the Samurais.
P.S. Mech-prentice we must have been typing at the same time.
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asclame
I wish I could tow the line but 80% is probably more like 60% truly when you take out the stand over tactics that have been used lately but still a strong majority I have to admit but this leadership will never have my support as long as they encourage, organise and support intimidation and threats against members who argue against the current tactics. This lot are putting our long term future under threat with a mindless and confrontationalist approach that GD is just lapping up. Look around, there will be a lot of folk who are not working here in 2 years from now thanks to this stupidity - ask yourselves then whether it was worth another 1 or 2 %. I mean its insane - read the papers, double digit infation in most economies in our region and oil prices out of control - regardless of GD's salary or shareholder profits (by the way, more of us should buy shares now because I reckon they are a bargain), do you think that the average traveller thinks we are reasonable for holding out under the current economic circumstances, come on people -sanity check here! Lets move on and stop listening to these people who just love the fight for he sake of a fight ro are so bitter and twisted it wouldnt matter if GD left today they would just poor venom and vitriol on the next CEO whoever he or she is. A case in point, I read all kinds of rubbish about the possible internal candidates - but I wonder how many have actually met any of them. I have and in particular JB and PG both seem to be good blokes. Both with working class backgrounds.
I can tell you I personally am hoping for an insider to replace GD because can you imagine what would happen if they dragged in somebody from outside the inudtry or worse still re-cycle somebody from the loopy US airline industry. think about it, have a look at Telstra!
Lets move on I say, take the 3 and the new sweetners and move on. Next time we sit down it will be with a new CEO and a chance for a new start. If we keep on the current track with GD half of us wont be here next time.
I can tell you I personally am hoping for an insider to replace GD because can you imagine what would happen if they dragged in somebody from outside the inudtry or worse still re-cycle somebody from the loopy US airline industry. think about it, have a look at Telstra!
Lets move on I say, take the 3 and the new sweetners and move on. Next time we sit down it will be with a new CEO and a chance for a new start. If we keep on the current track with GD half of us wont be here next time.
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Mail.........????
My mail is that the company offered plenty of sweetners last time around and you guys just buried it. Good to see some people are joining me in doing the sums!
........and review from whom you get your info. It's amazing how rumours get started with the power of suggestion and wishful thinking.
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RH37
I dont disagree with everything you say.
Yes It is madness.
We would have to be the most conservative union in Aust.
In fact we are not even a union, we are an assn.
To get to the point we are at now, given our track record,
just goes to show the deep seeded dissatisfaction with the
current situation. Really this is about more than 2%
Yes I agree that many of us probably will not be working for
QF in a few years.
Look at what happened to SYD heavy. Employed tues,
redundant wed. All they did was everything management
asked of them. If I worked in tulla, bris or avv heavy I would
be very worried.
They have been constantly threatened for years buy people
who have no idea what they are doing and make terrible
decisions to save money in the short term that cost
the company ten fold in the intermediate.
What has been going on the last 5 years is unsustainable
and something or someone will have to give.
I don't however agree with this so called intimidation.
I haven't seen any. Anamosity towards people who
have been assn reps and have resigned and sided with
the company is more than understandable and leads one to
wonder why they were reps in the first place?
Seems like they used the position to fast track there own career
instead of looking out for the good of there fellow workers.
If you don't believe me just look at where some of our so called
union brothers are now.
The only intimidation I see is by my so called managers
Remember we are not running a buggery campaign against
them, however they seem to think that is OK to single
out threaten and lean on the individual.
This behavior, carried out by our MACS, under instruction from
senior management and IR is illegal at the best of times
let alone during a PIA.
So lets not have any accusations with out taking
into account the behavior of our so called management
In regards to management
Ask your self this, Are you more or less efficiant now than you were
5 years ago?
All we do is what management tell us to do, and yet when things
go wrong or don't work somehow it is our fault DESPITE the fact
that we have told them time and time again how to do things more efficiantly and cheaply.
Tell me this, when was the last time something management did
made your job easier? When did they ever genuinely listen to
there staff and when did they ever reverse a
decision because it wasn't working?
NEVER. Its all just a joke and its is
taking QE on an ever accelerating downwards spiral and what
is there come back? The only one they know, attack
their staff because they really have know idea
about the business they are supposed to manage
Finally the lies.
I can not and will not respect someone who sits in front of me
and blatentley lies to my and my workmates faces!
Not to mention Dicko and co's media releases.
I just wish we could pull a full blown work to rules for just
one day. Just to demonstrate to madness they have created.
Go slow my ass
So
Maintain the Rage and hope to hell things change before
these lying fools do us all out of a job.
And RH37,
I would go so far as to say that 80% of my LAME brothers
think the same way as I do
I dont disagree with everything you say.
Yes It is madness.
We would have to be the most conservative union in Aust.
In fact we are not even a union, we are an assn.
To get to the point we are at now, given our track record,
just goes to show the deep seeded dissatisfaction with the
current situation. Really this is about more than 2%
Yes I agree that many of us probably will not be working for
QF in a few years.
Look at what happened to SYD heavy. Employed tues,
redundant wed. All they did was everything management
asked of them. If I worked in tulla, bris or avv heavy I would
be very worried.
They have been constantly threatened for years buy people
who have no idea what they are doing and make terrible
decisions to save money in the short term that cost
the company ten fold in the intermediate.
What has been going on the last 5 years is unsustainable
and something or someone will have to give.
I don't however agree with this so called intimidation.
I haven't seen any. Anamosity towards people who
have been assn reps and have resigned and sided with
the company is more than understandable and leads one to
wonder why they were reps in the first place?
Seems like they used the position to fast track there own career
instead of looking out for the good of there fellow workers.
If you don't believe me just look at where some of our so called
union brothers are now.
The only intimidation I see is by my so called managers
Remember we are not running a buggery campaign against
them, however they seem to think that is OK to single
out threaten and lean on the individual.
This behavior, carried out by our MACS, under instruction from
senior management and IR is illegal at the best of times
let alone during a PIA.
So lets not have any accusations with out taking
into account the behavior of our so called management
In regards to management
Ask your self this, Are you more or less efficiant now than you were
5 years ago?
All we do is what management tell us to do, and yet when things
go wrong or don't work somehow it is our fault DESPITE the fact
that we have told them time and time again how to do things more efficiantly and cheaply.
Tell me this, when was the last time something management did
made your job easier? When did they ever genuinely listen to
there staff and when did they ever reverse a
decision because it wasn't working?
NEVER. Its all just a joke and its is
taking QE on an ever accelerating downwards spiral and what
is there come back? The only one they know, attack
their staff because they really have know idea
about the business they are supposed to manage
Finally the lies.
I can not and will not respect someone who sits in front of me
and blatentley lies to my and my workmates faces!
Not to mention Dicko and co's media releases.
I just wish we could pull a full blown work to rules for just
one day. Just to demonstrate to madness they have created.
Go slow my ass
So
Maintain the Rage and hope to hell things change before
these lying fools do us all out of a job.
And RH37,
I would go so far as to say that 80% of my LAME brothers
think the same way as I do
Last edited by acslame; 5th Jul 2008 at 07:20.
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redhawk37
Has anyone stopped to consider that he might be right ?
Maybe the company did offer us a great deal at the last meeting yet the el Presidente, Fed Sec and the rest of the executive told the company what to do with their good offer.
Of course, if this is what happened, as rh37 says, we the members would never know.
Qantas management don't officially post on this forum, so what other possible way would they be able to tell us what had happened ?
Which is of course quite unfortunate....Imagine AS AN EXAMPLE, if the company had offered the association 4.99% plus one level, yet the executive told them to stick it in a place where the sun doesn't shine.
The company would probably really like us to know this, that the association was holding things from us, yet they would have no way of communicating with us !!!
If only the company had some way of officially communicating with it's employees .....................
rh...You've got to be joking !!!
SpannerTwister
Maybe the company did offer us a great deal at the last meeting yet the el Presidente, Fed Sec and the rest of the executive told the company what to do with their good offer.
Of course, if this is what happened, as rh37 says, we the members would never know.
Qantas management don't officially post on this forum, so what other possible way would they be able to tell us what had happened ?
Which is of course quite unfortunate....Imagine AS AN EXAMPLE, if the company had offered the association 4.99% plus one level, yet the executive told them to stick it in a place where the sun doesn't shine.
The company would probably really like us to know this, that the association was holding things from us, yet they would have no way of communicating with us !!!
If only the company had some way of officially communicating with it's employees .....................
rh...You've got to be joking !!!
SpannerTwister
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redhawk
Of course I was not there so I dont really know but my suit friends don't have an agenda and they actually agree we should have at least the 5, but they say we are dealing through represenataives who have shown themselves to be untrustworthy - I think we need to ask the so called leadership.
And then you woke up...........
Now I know your full of it.
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sweeteners
Is it the 1 % extra super for all !!!!!!!!
Is it the 7 % bonus we all get !!!!
Or is the $130,000 we earn which will become reality for all of us
I just had a wet dream !!!!!!!
It will take a lot of sweeteners to get rid of the bitter taste in my mouth!!!!!!
Is it the 7 % bonus we all get !!!!
Or is the $130,000 we earn which will become reality for all of us
I just had a wet dream !!!!!!!
It will take a lot of sweeteners to get rid of the bitter taste in my mouth!!!!!!
- the company has made several offers as I understand
The thing that distinguishes spreaders of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) Like Mr. Redhawk, is that they deliberately INCREASE the level of "unknowns" regarding any situation.
They do this by injecting "Red Herrings" into the discussion, in the guise of giving their "Opinion".
The only way to destroy their credibility is to de-construct their "opinions" into the series of unverified and incredible assertions they contain, one by one.
I've happily done it to a few, but I've just come back from an outback trip and I'm not at my usual computer, otherwise I would rip Redhawk another @rsehole.
Negotiations require trust. Negotiations also involve the floating and entertaining of ideas that would make your hair stand on end..... but they are negotiations, not outcomes. You cannot and must not demand the "'details" of the ALEA's position. That is for the Company to guess at and you don't need to know, because the mere act of telling you will play merry hell with your own expectations and cause you much unnecessary grief.
Do what your Fed. Sec. says, no more, no less.
They do this by injecting "Red Herrings" into the discussion, in the guise of giving their "Opinion".
The only way to destroy their credibility is to de-construct their "opinions" into the series of unverified and incredible assertions they contain, one by one.
I've happily done it to a few, but I've just come back from an outback trip and I'm not at my usual computer, otherwise I would rip Redhawk another @rsehole.
Negotiations require trust. Negotiations also involve the floating and entertaining of ideas that would make your hair stand on end..... but they are negotiations, not outcomes. You cannot and must not demand the "'details" of the ALEA's position. That is for the Company to guess at and you don't need to know, because the mere act of telling you will play merry hell with your own expectations and cause you much unnecessary grief.
Do what your Fed. Sec. says, no more, no less.
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I don't care what the company offers you if it doesn't include 5%. As has been stated, this is about more than 2%. It's about principles and telling the company that we have ALL had enough.
Redhawk37, I know one or two flight attendants like you. You are not the clever, elevated, broad-minded turd you think you are. You assume that everyone else is narrow minded and simple, when really it is you who are blind. Wake up and get a reality check. And wipe that brown stuff off your nose.
Redhawk37, I know one or two flight attendants like you. You are not the clever, elevated, broad-minded turd you think you are. You assume that everyone else is narrow minded and simple, when really it is you who are blind. Wake up and get a reality check. And wipe that brown stuff off your nose.
Last edited by Flugbegleiter; 5th Jul 2008 at 08:46. Reason: Abusive comment removed - I'd rather not be banned
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I'm sorry shouldn't have posted that, emotions got the better of me, if you don't walk in my shoes don't post drivel, we have to put up with so much crap everyday it p$sses us all off, all we are trying to do is our job without all the absolute crap that goes with it, never mind that we are underpaid for what we have to do, while all those idiots that make the decisions are paid heaps and haven't a clue as to what is happening at the coalface. Hopefully when scrotum face goes the new guy/gal will come in and get rid of all these f'wits.
Rant over i feel better now. [for a couple of minutes anyway]
Rant over i feel better now. [for a couple of minutes anyway]
Well spotted, chap!