Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA

[numbskull]

I'd also like someone to answer Domo's question.

Where can I find the QF announcement that says they are keeping all the the A380 Engineering and Maintenance inhouse?

I smell a big red rat here.

Maybe QF are waiting for you guys to sign off on your EBA before they clarify their position that All Engineeering will be done in house but the Maintenance will be outsourced.

Maybe I'm just too cynical but I don't believe they'd pay for JHAS B1 and B2 training for nothing!

PS your pay increase may JUST keep the majority of currently employed LAMES JUST happy enough to accept it but it will not address the parity of pay for LAMES V Other Trades with a base pay increase of only 3 %. It does not stop the decline of pay and conditions for LAMES or AMES or will it attract the best to the industry. On the contrary it will ensure that only the foolish or the bottom of the barrell candidates will wish to take up an aviation apprenticeship with Qantas.

This is because the base rate is low to any one entering (or lames re-entering) the industry. They won't have the benefit of those years of service points which they have consistently used over the last 10 years to give acceptable pay increases to currently employed staff while keeping the base rate low for any new starters.

You have the opportunity to remedy all this and get a larger base rate pay increase (all of QF will support you). QF are running scared and know exactly how much power the ALAEA wields.

Why accept a base rate increase of 3% for 4 years when inflation is already 3.6% and forecast to go higher along with higher interest rates. If you LAMES accept this then you are seriously selling yourselves short.

[nut turner]

A number of posts have asked,
"What about the future LAME's, what's in it for them?"
The ASN has not cared about them since the LAME pay restucture a number of years back when the Pressident at the time was asked the same question, "What are we doing for future LAME's?"
His reply was "I don't care about them, I'm only interested in the one's here now."
It seems nothing has changed in the last 10-15 years.

[sickofqf]

FED SEC said...

"lvl 13 and locked moves straight to new level 14."

Well, that and the Cert4 clause should give a certain well loved supervisor (ie, Seinfelds mail man), who left the union in a big sulk, and has been training scabs along with one or two other "ex" BM guys a nice pay rise.

Good to see those who fought AGAINST us are being amply rewarded!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

A number of posts have asked,
"What about the future LAME's, what's in it for them?"
The ASN has not cared about them since the LAME pay restucture a number of years back when the Pressident at the time was asked the same question, "What are we doing for future LAME's?"
His reply was "I don't care about them, I'm only interested in the one's here now."
It seems nothing has changed in the last 10-15 years.

Guys it's not a case of not caring for those AMEs coming through the system. They got shafted in the past as I did when I only got half the payment for my 767. This in-principle agreement has not solved every problem we face but the AMEs had one win out of this that is far more important than how much they get paid when they get licenced.

If left untouched, they would not have been licenced at all. The Regulatory changes have allowed for the new half baked A-Licence. The in-principle Agreement includes a commitment to not utilise or employ Cat A licences for life of the Agreement.

The negotiation of this Agreement has not been entirely about wages, there are an infinite number of other fators surrounding it that, to many engineers are equally as important.

cheers

[Annulus Filler]

All be it that we may have fixed the EBA issues for the time being, there are still wider issues that will be prevalent after the EBA is signed off. I personally believe that Qantas Engineering management have got it all wrong, relating to manpower, training, licencing and ratios, and that we should continually be vigiliant with carrying out overtime and higher duties to promote their management style.

[division1]

Fed Sec
If left untouched, they would not have been licenced at all. The Regulatory changes have allowed for the new half baked A-Licence. The in-principle Agreement includes a commitment to not utilise or employ Cat A licences for life of the Agreement.

Great work,
So much ground has been made the last few weeks,
if the exec is recommending it be voted up, then perhaps
the deal is about as good as it gets for now.
The alaea will come out smelling of roses, no upsets to the
public, big face with gov't and the irc.
It sounds like a lot of lames moving up a grade, i'm sure they will
be happy, 3+5+1.5+++. Am i missing something?
The guy getting +3+1.5++ needs a good hard think about it.

lvl 13 and locked moves straight to new level 14.

does this imply level 14 is open with entry using service points?

[company_spy]

First up, Ultralights..... keep your bib out, I know what you people at BAe are on and I can tell you, 3% of my lolly smashes 5% of yours.

Second, look around you at the biggest whingers and make a quick calculation of how much O/T they have been lapping up, especially towards the end.......

If you want to stand toe to toe with "the man" fair enough. Some of us will stand beside you, but be prepared for the backsliders and snakes because you will soon see how "unified" we are.

Thirdly, before you start posting crap here, wait untill after we get a chance to ask some questions at the meetings. I feel the notice was not written the best, several points need clarification.

[Insider Trader]

What an apt topic to post my first comment...

Never have i encountered such incidious and over-valued rhetoric as i have on these forums. Let's point out a couple of facts to you much 'maligned' QF LAMEs.

You got a pay rise of 3% per annum for 4 yrs. As you know, the Oz economy is bursting at the seams under inflationary pressure, due largely to the previous govts woeful economic policies. Inflation is running at 3.5 - 4%, well above the fed reserve's target of 3%. The easiest way to kerb rising inflation is to stunt wage growth, the Hawke / Keating Wages Accord of the 80's a text book example. Any centralised statutory authority armed with the responsibility of setting wages, such as the AIRC, would look very dimly on any wage rise in the current economic climate. You should consider yourselves lucky to get 3%. Those that wanted war over 5% would have soon found themselves a lifeless mess on the battlefield.

Your superannuation entitlement is fairly attractive IMO. At a rough estimate, most managed funds have been returning 12 - 15%pa on average over the past 5 years. I dare say that would probably outstrip the extra 2% wage rise p.a you soldiers wanted.

And as for your 'measly' back pay, you have an opportunity to do something constructive with the bulk sum, eg a voluntary super contribution, more on the mortgage etc. Because i dare say that had most of you got that in your fortnightly wage for the past 12 months, it would have only been spent on beer and ciggies in the pub, while you all got sloshed and romanticised about how 'great' and 'indispensible' you all are.

The reality is people, this is a dynamic industry, and it stops for no one. JHAS, and other non-airline parties, are the future, whether you like it or not. May i suggest that you give the company good reason in the future to want to offer you a worthwhile EBA, rather than give them the opportunity to farm the work off elsewhere. It's your call.

The corporatocracy rules the world now folks. Better get used to it!

[Anulus Filler]

Inside Trader

The corporatocracy rules the world now folks. Better get used to it!

Delays rule my world....They will rule yours. YOU BETTER GET USED OF IT!

[numbskull]

IT you sound like a recently made up manager with very little idea of how airline maintenance works. - Just the type that QF likes to employ.

Stop trying to aggravate people.

The "corporatocracy" is full of greedy self serving executives and if the unions haven't got the balls to teach them a lesson then their own greed will eventually bring them unstuck one way or the other.

[Clipped]

Insider

Thanks for that dose of 'reality'. Straight out of the Dixon Book of Management.

Of course when the operation is all smooth sailing, you are quite right, we should remain alert of the 'dynamic industry' and be gracious to what we have.

But when the machines break - it's always the same desperation, look of uselessness, disregard for costs that the likes of you will endure to get that beast back in the air. It happens ALL the time and far more often these days.

We have core values, being broken down by mismanagement and they need to be enlightened to their wrong doing.

When will you wake up and realise we are on the wrong path.

[knuckledragger1]

Inside trader,

Wow, you've got us in one So insightful

And well, full of something anyway

If you are who you say you are, and not a soldier of darkness (you do use the soldier analogy after all)

How do you explain the A380 decision?

and If you are one of the henchmen of shadow, Who did you sell your soul to? Was it worth the pieces of eight to be reviled and despised? I advise you stay within your Mascot castle, if you leave, the peasants will pitchfork you

Long memories

[Take five]

Questions for ALAEA Fed Sec.

Can the FED EXEC Please elaborate on 3 things?

1.In the latest email from QF management they are quite happy with the agreement in principle with the ALAEA on.
Total lifting of restrictions on QF use of fixed term contract employment.

2. Can you clarify which grades will still have restrictions of entry
Using only Service Points

3.Why is there no transparency, on
Vacancies in each grade, and waiting list numbers

All of these questions need to be addressed urgently before the feedback meetings

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

inside trader

for your well thought out speech,dynamic this and that ,a changing world,etc,blah blah blah ,guess what ?,aircraft are still in the old world ie the 747 is a 40 yr old design that still needs highly skilled,highly trained personal to maintain them,these same people have had a pay rise that averages out over 2% pa over the last 8 yrs,hardly butting inflationary pressures on the economy,it's the likes of yourself that have created this inflationary,ie i went to UNI so i must be bad far better than anybody else out there,get a grip.
With your well paid job your family should be able to pay for a nice funeral for yourself if ever your are on a flight that hits the drink,due to the lowest bidding MRO maintaining your aircraft that you are on..

[Konehead]

Insider Trader, how apt.

Insider Trader, how apt - someone corrupt who uses information immorally for personal gain. Says it all really. Although you can only live up to the example set by your CEO.

Never have i encountered such incidious and over-valued rhetoric as i have on these forums

That's rich, coming from a shiny bum who has:
never worked a weekend,
never worked a 12 hour nightshift,
never got his hands dirty
never been exposed to toxic, carcinogenic chemicals and electromagnetic radiation,
and by implication a part of the short-sighted 'corporatocracy' that has brought a world-renowned engineering organisation to its knees.
Have you read the papers recently, finding that working nightshift is a probable cause of cancer? Have you read the statitics that show shiftworkers on average die 5 - 10 years earlier than the rest of the population? Or that they have a higher divorce rate? I ask you, WHAT IS 5 - 10 YEARS OF YOUR LIFE WORTH TO YOU? AND DOMESTIC BLISS? AND A UNIFIED FAMILY?
The average age of LAMEs worldwide is 54. In Aus it's a bit less than that. What premium do you put on EXPERIENCE?
We are NOT car mechanics. The education process bears this out: 6 - 8 years to become a LAME (that's if the idiots in management deign to train anyone on type), then many years working under said conditions above before you can be called a 'good' LAME. How long did YOU spend at uni to gain your new-found 'wisdom'?
We are individually responsible for thousands of lives daily and millions of dollars of company assets, not to mention the 'public goodwill' associated with the worlds best engineering outcome. That's NO CRASHES FROM ENGINEERING DEFECTS, NOT "AFFORDABLE SAFETY". That is one of the few remaining reasons people buy Qantas tickets, busily being eroded by clowns like you.

the AIRC, would look very dimly on any wage rise in the current economic climate. You should consider yourselves lucky to get 3%.

Have you been reading the financial pages recently? National wages growth is on average 4.6%. We took a pay freeze in the past because QF was on hard times, only to have QF announce record profits. We stood by while management carved the heart out of QF Engineering by closing H245, awarded themselves ludicrous bonuses and acted corruptly during the APA bid; while we fought with one hand tied behind our backs to keep an under-resourced and over-utilised fleet in the air.
I would consider myself lucky to be working for VB or JHAS, where LAMEs are truly valued. A single-licenced LAME on shift-work earns $78K. At VB and JHAS it is over $100K. Unlike QF LAMEs their overtime and superanuation are based on their whole pay, not just on their base rate.

Those that wanted war over 5% would have soon found themselves a lifeless mess on the battlefield.

Lying alongside JV, MH, DC, PS, IO etc etc.
If the LAMEs were left a lifeless mess on the battlefield, how do you think Qantas Engineering, and the airline as a whole would be fairing?
We could've done far more damage from within the gates than from without. All we'd need to do is strap ourselves into the strait-jackets that management has made for us - using as our weapons unworkable policy and procedure. Keep that in mind next time you emerge from under your rock.
By the way, have you asked yourself why the CEO had to negotiate an EBA? Something he did in a day or two when his minions couldn't pull it off in 14 months? Oooh and don't let me forget that it hasn't been voted on yet! And there are some very unhappy campers among the LAMEs. The show aint over till the fat lady sings!

Your superannuation entitlement is fairly attractive IMO. At a rough estimate, most managed funds have been returning 12 - 15%pa on average over the past 5 years. I dare say that would probably outstrip the extra 2% wage rise p.a you soldiers wanted.

WRONG!
I compulsorily contribute 4% of my base rate, or 2.7% of my total pay!
The company contributes 5% of my base rate, or 3.5% of my total pay!
That's a total contribution of a mere 6.2% of my total pay!
Salary sacrifice gives me a tax saving of 1.18% on my gross pay. WOOPEE!
By the way, what's your super plan, Shiny-Bum? 9%? 10%? 11%?
I know this is a rumour network, but the best rumours have a basis in FACT, something you would hardly be acquainted with in your ivory tower.

And as for your 'measly' back pay, you have an opportunity to do something constructive with the bulk sum, eg a voluntary super contribution, more on the mortgage etc. Because i dare say that had most of you got that in your fortnightly wage for the past 12 months, it would have only been spent on beer and ciggies in the pub, while you all got sloshed and romanticised about how 'great' and 'indispensible' you all are.

Is that the best you can do?
We'll have to contribute some of the backpay to our super, to make up for the difference in super contributions we lost while the company delayed for 14 months. That backpay was an interest-free loan to the company. What interest did they earn or save on that? It's money that SHOULD'VE been in our pockets to do with as we see fit. Including piss it up against a wall or light it up. But since I don't smoke or drink, what SHALL I do with ALL THAT GELT? Oh yeah, maybe buy a share in one of those luxury yachts that were left on the slipway after the APA bid fell over.

The reality is people, this is a dynamic industry, and it stops for no one.

Oh excellent! I do hope so. More employment opportunities outside of Qantas, with people who truly value LAMEs.
One day, 'market forces' will catch up with Qantas. You learned about those in uni didn't you?

May i suggest that you give the company good reason in the future to want to offer you a worthwhile EBA,

Why yes, stirling advice. We may not be so nice next time. 2010 will be a different industrial environment to 2007/2008. Management incompetence will only be further exposed. They can only stick their testicles out so far before someone kicks them.

The corporatocracy rules the world now folks. Better get used to it!

Sounds like Gordon Gecko in 'Wall Street'. The likes of him got burned quite badly didn't they? No-one has managed to rule the world. Common-sense and the resistance of ordinary people usually prevails. Psychopaths like you come to a bad end my friend.
Come back sometime and we'll chat again when Qantas is an Employer of Choice.

[Short_Circuit]

Nice post Konehead

[chemical alli]

one of my aviation friends the other day made the comment, i feel like something is not quite rite,i feel as if ive been violated but not sure why.

i am still not convinced this is the best offer we could have achieved (thats no reflection on the exec).like many others i have spoken to ,i feel left wanting.
i think its a line ball 50/50 call on the outcome.

[HotDog]

Konehead, I symphatise with your remarks, but:

never worked a weekend,
never worked a 12 hour nightshift, never been exposed electromagnetic radiation

And I'll add another one: Cosmic radiation plus operating on Christmas day New Year's Eve or day.

We are individually responsible for thousands of lives daily and millions of dollars of company assets

You are not the only ones responsible for that. Would you agree that flight crew may have a place in that picture?

[Redstone]

Chemical I agree with your sentiment, I think the reason for the empty feeling is that everyone was tooled up and ready to give the company a bloody nose. The guys and gals were ready for a blue. I think it's a minor form of post traumatic stress dissorder......

[600ft-lb]

You are not the only ones responsible for that. Would you agree that flight crew may have a place in that picture?

He did say individually, not singularly.

Allow me to clarify; He, by himself, by the actions he partakes in, could possibly, kill 450people.

So could a pilot.

So could a terrorist.

As useless as my post is replying to you, why did you bother stating that in the first place.. ??