Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA
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There hasn't even been a meeting to put this to the members and already they are going soft.
Once again they are dividing and conquering. Nothing really fantastic has come out of it. If you keep the 380 then 2 dozen guys will be happy for the screwing the rest get.
3 weeks ago it was all 5% or nothing but now you have the sweetener of back pay and all is forgiven and forgotten. I understand the pressures of a mortgage 1 income and 4 kids.But you really aren't looking further than your nose. Short term gain long term pain.
I bet the wording of the overseas stuff is so weak ambiguous that they can still send it wherever,whenever they want due to OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS
And ChockChucker you say you will live to fight another day.
Get real you haven't even started fighting, you called a bluff and they have bluffed you back and you are falling for it,
Once again they are dividing and conquering. Nothing really fantastic has come out of it. If you keep the 380 then 2 dozen guys will be happy for the screwing the rest get.
3 weeks ago it was all 5% or nothing but now you have the sweetener of back pay and all is forgiven and forgotten. I understand the pressures of a mortgage 1 income and 4 kids.But you really aren't looking further than your nose. Short term gain long term pain.
I bet the wording of the overseas stuff is so weak ambiguous that they can still send it wherever,whenever they want due to OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS
And ChockChucker you say you will live to fight another day.
Get real you haven't even started fighting, you called a bluff and they have bluffed you back and you are falling for it,
Last edited by another superlame; 5th Feb 2008 at 08:59. Reason: incorrect reference
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I'm not that ofay with all the goings on here with the engineers & their sneaky employer/s But am convinced that the ones that make the rules (management) seek info here with a fine tooth comb. This forum is perfect for both sides I believe. They (the enermy) can sus out how the troops are battling/handling it (it being the details on offer) between @ other (GOOD & BAD)& their general feelings on the whole ugly matter & secondly the troops themselves can with some level of anonynimity thrash it out between yourselves.
Seems to me that 3% barely made any inroads to a better relationship between 'them & us'............still we are dealing with an industry that has only one real avenue of bargaining power & that's via the employees. The cost of everything else continues to rise, parts etc things that they can do scant about but they (management) can & will keep trying to screw you lot. As some have said in here, what may appear to be a resolution might in the long run be of little benifit. At the end of the day YOU, as an individual need to asses what's right for YOU.
Good luck guys, as I've said elsewhere in these forums we (pilots) NEED you guys/gals......................don't leave us just yet, planes aren't self healing !!!
CW
Seems to me that 3% barely made any inroads to a better relationship between 'them & us'............still we are dealing with an industry that has only one real avenue of bargaining power & that's via the employees. The cost of everything else continues to rise, parts etc things that they can do scant about but they (management) can & will keep trying to screw you lot. As some have said in here, what may appear to be a resolution might in the long run be of little benifit. At the end of the day YOU, as an individual need to asses what's right for YOU.
Good luck guys, as I've said elsewhere in these forums we (pilots) NEED you guys/gals......................don't leave us just yet, planes aren't self healing !!!
CW
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I'm obviously in the minority in my opinion here as far as whether or not to accept this deal goes. That's O.K. this is a democracy and I am prepared to accept the decision of the majority. I am not a scab nor will I ever lower myself to be one.
Just hope all the hawks out there who are so keen for action to be taken,despite not yet having read the final document, are prepared for all the consequences that may result.
The industrial landscape that we find ourselves in today is not the same that our fathers and grandfathers worked in, unfortunately.
Good luck everybody.
Just hope all the hawks out there who are so keen for action to be taken,despite not yet having read the final document, are prepared for all the consequences that may result.
The industrial landscape that we find ourselves in today is not the same that our fathers and grandfathers worked in, unfortunately.
Good luck everybody.
Join Date: Apr 2007
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QF LAME's, congratulations you now hold the balance of power! Your Management just traded what I believe was their biggest negotiating weapon of outsourcing the A380, so you have them over a barrel...Don't waste it.
BTW Black Panther, Can you PM me tomorrows lotto numbers too?
BTW Black Panther, Can you PM me tomorrows lotto numbers too?
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I don't believe the A380 is a negotiating weapon,not for the masses anyway. Only a few hand chose elite non ALAEA golden boys will ever get to make money from it.
The majority of the LAME population know that they will never get a licence on it and couldn't give a toss.
So at the end of the day the A380 is worth nothing to most, they would be happier with 5% and the whole A380 sent elsewhere.
The majority of the LAME population know that they will never get a licence on it and couldn't give a toss.
So at the end of the day the A380 is worth nothing to most, they would be happier with 5% and the whole A380 sent elsewhere.
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Look at what was presented to us by DC initially.
Look at the draft agreement now.
Alot of work was needed to go from the first to the final.
That period of quiet was a time of intense negotiation and a more positive outcome was achieved. Opinions would have been sought from even Gov't levels.
Everyone of us knows how pig headed QE mgmt are to deal with at the best of times, this was not a walk in the park.
I personally would have preferred a 5% increase for ALL LAMEs, that is too simple an outcome and it could have forced Q to a drastic reaction at a great cost to the membership.
I say we take our small win and we keep fighting them day in day out while we're on the job. Let this episode remind you when you are expected to extend yourself again.
Look at the draft agreement now.
Alot of work was needed to go from the first to the final.
That period of quiet was a time of intense negotiation and a more positive outcome was achieved. Opinions would have been sought from even Gov't levels.
Everyone of us knows how pig headed QE mgmt are to deal with at the best of times, this was not a walk in the park.
I personally would have preferred a 5% increase for ALL LAMEs, that is too simple an outcome and it could have forced Q to a drastic reaction at a great cost to the membership.
I say we take our small win and we keep fighting them day in day out while we're on the job. Let this episode remind you when you are expected to extend yourself again.
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I don't have access to QF intranet but I can't find any announcement from QF that say they are to retain all the 380 work inhouse.
They only announcement I can find is from the ALAEA.
I'm probably being way too cynical, but I would like to hear it from QF before I believe it!!!
They only announcement I can find is from the ALAEA.
I'm probably being way too cynical, but I would like to hear it from QF before I believe it!!!
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Wow, its hot in here
Fk this Fk that Fk it all
If you're fair dinkum tell the exec at the feedback meetings that no doubt will come and the company tomorrow at work that it is a **** deal and roll on PIA, if you're not shut the fk up with your winging oh sorry I mean whinging
Fk this Fk that Fk it all
If you're fair dinkum tell the exec at the feedback meetings that no doubt will come and the company tomorrow at work that it is a **** deal and roll on PIA, if you're not shut the fk up with your winging oh sorry I mean whinging
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I don't believe the A380 is a negotiating weapon,not for the masses anyway. Only a few hand chose elite non ALAEA golden boys will ever get to make money from it.
The majority of the LAME population know that they will never get a licence on it and couldn't give a toss.
So at the end of the day the A380 is worth nothing to most, they would be happier with 5% and the whole A380 sent elsewhere
The majority of the LAME population know that they will never get a licence on it and couldn't give a toss.
So at the end of the day the A380 is worth nothing to most, they would be happier with 5% and the whole A380 sent elsewhere
Join Date: Jan 2008
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C'mon fellas
vote yes
, vote yes,
Just don't forget that we are
A LAME OF ONE
that extra 2% in wages will cost a lot more in parts, manpower and delay,
I understand the beancounters think they are not related or on the same part of the balancesheet
However as one not skilled in the twists and turns of accountancy, i see them on the same ledger
All you smart@rse sh!tstirring so and so's LAMEA380 Headcone and the like,
report that to the owner of your souls
vote yes
, vote yes,Just don't forget that we are
A LAME OF ONE
that extra 2% in wages will cost a lot more in parts, manpower and delay,
I understand the beancounters think they are not related or on the same part of the balancesheet
However as one not skilled in the twists and turns of accountancy, i see them on the same ledger
All you smart@rse sh!tstirring so and so's LAMEA380 Headcone and the like,
report that to the owner of your souls
Join Date: Dec 2007
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What a joke..!!!!!
I cant believe that the negotiation committee has been talking to the company for how long..15 months..and this garbage is what they managed to come up with.??? 1 point is insulting to every single Lame ..what about the 80 or so percent of the association that voted for industrial action...i thought we as members made that decision...not the negotiation committee.And for them now to endorse this crock of s### is truly unbelievable.Mr Purvinas told us only a couple of weeks ago..in person..we wont get more than 3% but we will get some beneficial sweetners..another lie!!!! they have rolled over once again.surprise ,surprise..
If is good enough for the pilots(good on you guys) to get sign on bonuses or whatever you want to call them..what about us..??? the guys that keep the planes in the sky!!!! it is US who have built the companys second to none safety record and they treat us like garbage.
Reject this in adequate offer..please
If is good enough for the pilots(good on you guys) to get sign on bonuses or whatever you want to call them..what about us..??? the guys that keep the planes in the sky!!!! it is US who have built the companys second to none safety record and they treat us like garbage.
Reject this in adequate offer..please
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SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT
Have you ever really thought what it costs us each time we get stalled out of an EBA by a year? Take a look at our super especially if you are in a defined benefit scheme.(divs 1,2&3)
I will give 2 examples below and use $1000 as a base wage for simplicity as at 31/12/06 (end of EBA). In the first case, it is what we should get without any stalling tactics by QF. The second case will focus on the QF style of negotiating.(ie Stall for a year with B.S. clauses and then hold you for ransom on the backpay)
Case 1.(No stalling by QF)
1/1/07 - 31/12/07 ($1000.00/wk + 3%) = $1030.00/wk ($53560/year)
1/1/08 - 31/12/08 ($1030.00/wk + 3%) = $1060.90/wk ($55167/year)
1/1/09 - 31/12/09 ($1092.73/wk + 3%) = $1092.72/wk ($56822/year)
1/1/10 - 31/12/10 ($1125.50/wk + 3%) = $1125.50/wk ($58526/year)
Case 2.(Stalling by QF)
1/1/07 - 31/12/07 ($1000.00/wk no rise) = $1000.00/wk ($52000/year)
1/1/08 - 31/12/08 ($1000.00/wk + 3% ) = $1030.00/wk ($53560/year)backpay gets introduced at this stage but base wage is behind by 1 year at least.
1/1/09 - 31/12/09 ($1030.00/wk + 3%) = $1060.90/wk ($55167/year)
1/1/10 - 31/12/10 ($1092.73/wk + 3%) = $1092.72/wk ($56822/year)
Now the FAS (Final average salary) is calculated by the average salary of the last 3 years in divs 2 & 3,or 5 years for div 1. The final average salary is for your financial year. I have worked out the financial year salary for case 1 and case 2.
Case 1.
financial year to 30/6/08 = $54363
financial year to 30/6/09 = $55994
financial year to 30/6/10 = $57674
FAS = $56010 for case 1.
Case 2
financial year to 30/6/08 = $52780
financial year to 30/6/09 = $54363
financial year to 30/6/10 = $55994
FAS = $54379
Now for a Div 2 of retiring age with the company with say 30 years service, will have a retirement benefit multiple of 2.82.
Bottom line
Case 1 retirement benefit is $56010 x 2.82 = $157 948.
Case 2 retirement benefit is $54379 x 2.82 = $153 349.
In this case, a stall of exactly 1 year will cost you $4599 to your super. Now remember that this was only based on a $1000 wage for simplicity. What does it really cost you every time we negotiate for your real wage? How many times have we been stalled for each EBA and what has it really cost us? Maybe we should add that to QF's balance sheet when negotiating. Don't let me start on the interest for the back pay.
Have you ever really thought what it costs us each time we get stalled out of an EBA by a year? Take a look at our super especially if you are in a defined benefit scheme.(divs 1,2&3)
I will give 2 examples below and use $1000 as a base wage for simplicity as at 31/12/06 (end of EBA). In the first case, it is what we should get without any stalling tactics by QF. The second case will focus on the QF style of negotiating.(ie Stall for a year with B.S. clauses and then hold you for ransom on the backpay)
Case 1.(No stalling by QF)
1/1/07 - 31/12/07 ($1000.00/wk + 3%) = $1030.00/wk ($53560/year)
1/1/08 - 31/12/08 ($1030.00/wk + 3%) = $1060.90/wk ($55167/year)
1/1/09 - 31/12/09 ($1092.73/wk + 3%) = $1092.72/wk ($56822/year)
1/1/10 - 31/12/10 ($1125.50/wk + 3%) = $1125.50/wk ($58526/year)
Case 2.(Stalling by QF)
1/1/07 - 31/12/07 ($1000.00/wk no rise) = $1000.00/wk ($52000/year)
1/1/08 - 31/12/08 ($1000.00/wk + 3% ) = $1030.00/wk ($53560/year)backpay gets introduced at this stage but base wage is behind by 1 year at least.
1/1/09 - 31/12/09 ($1030.00/wk + 3%) = $1060.90/wk ($55167/year)
1/1/10 - 31/12/10 ($1092.73/wk + 3%) = $1092.72/wk ($56822/year)
Now the FAS (Final average salary) is calculated by the average salary of the last 3 years in divs 2 & 3,or 5 years for div 1. The final average salary is for your financial year. I have worked out the financial year salary for case 1 and case 2.
Case 1.
financial year to 30/6/08 = $54363
financial year to 30/6/09 = $55994
financial year to 30/6/10 = $57674
FAS = $56010 for case 1.
Case 2
financial year to 30/6/08 = $52780
financial year to 30/6/09 = $54363
financial year to 30/6/10 = $55994
FAS = $54379
Now for a Div 2 of retiring age with the company with say 30 years service, will have a retirement benefit multiple of 2.82.
Bottom line
Case 1 retirement benefit is $56010 x 2.82 = $157 948.
Case 2 retirement benefit is $54379 x 2.82 = $153 349.
In this case, a stall of exactly 1 year will cost you $4599 to your super. Now remember that this was only based on a $1000 wage for simplicity. What does it really cost you every time we negotiate for your real wage? How many times have we been stalled for each EBA and what has it really cost us? Maybe we should add that to QF's balance sheet when negotiating. Don't let me start on the interest for the back pay.
Last edited by Anulus Filler; 5th Feb 2008 at 22:10. Reason: thanks brother af.figures wrong way up
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Looks like the PR machine at Bexley was warmed up yesterday to be used against it's own members.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin
How did Mr Vasta do his market research so quickly..."The 1,600 engineers are expected to vote in favour of the four-year agreement"....
Those for, those against.......Division required, lock the doors.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...section=justin
How did Mr Vasta do his market research so quickly..."The 1,600 engineers are expected to vote in favour of the four-year agreement"....
Those for, those against.......Division required, lock the doors.
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Hello Brother AF, what you say is quite true. As long as you don't leave, your FAS will finally catch up. But mind you we are all going to leave one day so you point is 100% correct.
Last edited by Annulus Filler; 5th Feb 2008 at 23:11.
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Could anyone tell me on Super Division 2 whether we are paying 4% mandatory or 5% mandatory Super Contributions currently?
I have been doing some figures myself and correct me if I am wrong. If I was to add $50 per week POST income tax this would not be taxed entering the Super plan as I have already paid income tax to gain this $50. However if I was to pay $50 per week PRE income tax, I will have to pay 15% super entering tax reducing my super to $42.50. I understand that you will be better off in your fortnightly take home pocket, but to what extent does your super account suffer?
Can anyone enlighten me?
I have been doing some figures myself and correct me if I am wrong. If I was to add $50 per week POST income tax this would not be taxed entering the Super plan as I have already paid income tax to gain this $50. However if I was to pay $50 per week PRE income tax, I will have to pay 15% super entering tax reducing my super to $42.50. I understand that you will be better off in your fortnightly take home pocket, but to what extent does your super account suffer?
Can anyone enlighten me?
