Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

No problems explaining, I will do some figures today and make a posting.

Nice post by AF but can he please explain why in case 2 the year ending 30/6/10 the figure is $52,780?

Just a general comment about negative feedback and postings. We are all too aware that we could fight for 5% pa, get 6% pa and have members unhappy that we didn't go for 7% pa. It must stop somewhere and the Exec are satisfied that what has been negotiated is a good outcome that a vast majority of members will gladly accept.

There have been times in the last 3 weeks when offers were on the table that would have been voted up but we kept demanding more until a good outcome was achieved. Will post more detail when I get a chance later today.

cheers

[Anulus Filler]

The figures have been changed in case 2. They were upside down.


Grouter

Hello brother AF. Is AF annulus filler? Are you talking to yourself?

I have one 'N' the anulus but were both fillers.

[The Black Panther]

I compared the EBA VIII proposal against EBA VII.
Firstly the Net profit after tax leading upto the EBA VII agreement date was
03/04 $648mil
04/05 $763mil

The EBA VII agreement was basically 3% plus $1000 as a Qantas stock issue.
There was flexibanking in HM and customer tail payments restrictions. Correct please.

This agreement environment has seen
06/07 $720mil
07/08 $1008mil (est)

In addition we have seen substantial remuneration by high profile management.
A $5.60 share price until recent stock market corrections ($4.60), strong yields from a bubbling economy on the back of the mining sector supplying China.

This agreement does appear to deliver a little more than EBA VII however considering the economic environments and think it should have. Additionally we have storm clouds on our horizon (inflation & int’ rates) whereas in July 2005 it was clear skies.

3% wage increase.
A 4year agreement would see us into the next election period. This government has inherited climbing inflation, and a contracting US economy that could collar the EU. China may also contract after 8-8-08 but more than likely will continue to be positive. The ALP are no certainties in 2010, voters have short memories.

Level 8 and below 1 service point – delivers about 1.8% to 1.3%, you would have received this in August anyway but it is a forward payment.

Superannuation SS – It does add to your investment however it won’t pay the additional mortgage payment increases as variable rates continue to rise. Again a small addition that cost Qantas zero dollars. Which is good, we do need this company to prosper.

Quotas release, Staff travel, Cert IV trainer payment, PCT and tank payments probably only affect a small percentage and appears biased to the senior highly licensed line guys. The A380 selection issue may only effect a handful of applicants. Read and believe what you will about the HM 330 and 737. Somewhat suspicious why DC didn’t include more detail in his lightning fast propaganda notice.

So basically this agreement does contain a lot more items then the previous agreement and there are segments of winners and losers. I do see now they (Alaea Exec) would have been working hard. I have relented slightly and expect a strong sell by the exec which will see this get over the line with minor grumbling.

[Anulus Filler]

MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Brother Filler....

Hello Brother AF, what you say is quite true. As long as you don't leave, your FAS will finally catch up.

Not really correct with the catching up. If we have an EBA every 3 years and all they give us is back pay for the year we lost, we will lose 3% to the FAS for every EBA we get into even though our take home renumeration would be virtually the same.

My point is that after 3 EBA's over 9 years, your FAS will be down by 9% to where it should be but you will still have a 3% wage rise each year. Now start to think what that costs us over a period of time!!!!

There are number crunchers who think of this sh#t all the time to justify their existance. We are the ones who pay for it. That is why I will be AGAIN voting for PIA. There has to be a decent renumeration package. I'm very certain our excecutives wouldn't accept this if the shoe was on the other foot.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

G'day AF,

Thanks for the last ammendent just wanted some more clarification.

Backpay paid in year 2 is not included. I would assume that this is part of your taxable income for that year and therefore part of the FAS. If this is not the case can you please explain why?

In case 2 you have only added 3% in year 2. At some point in year 2 the base actually increases by 6% being 3% effective and backpaid from 1 Jan 2007 and 3% effective and backpaid from 1 Jan 2008. By the time year 3 and 4 come around the wage is the same in both cases one and two. Can you please shed some light for me.

[Anulus Filler]

Thanks ALAEA Fed Sec...

My understanding of the defined super schemes is that the Final Average Salary is the base wage annually excluding shift penalties and back pays. I'm in div 2 and the FAS does not include any penalties.It is only the base rate. So the way that I understand it is that even though the bottom line may be a 6% rise after 2 years, the FAS is still showing only 3% because the base wage only rose 3% and the back pay gave the other 3%.

.....am I thinking too much here???

Time for my next beer..

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

BP - Lots of discussion about Qantas profits over time and yes they are bigger now than EBA VII. Yes this result stacks up better but it has been negotiated under competely different IR Laws.

The WRA was ammended in March 2006 making it tougher to negotiate an outcome or take PIA. Some of the changes included -

• prohibited content - many items including some things in EBA VII and prior are now prohibited such as offshoring of maint restrictions.
• you now need a ballot by AEC to take PIA, before the Exec could just announce it.
• If you take PIA in many circumstances your pay for the day is taken away.
• all previous agreements need to be consolidated in to one.

The list goes on and the negotiation of an Agreement is much tougher now than it was 3 or 4 years ago.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thanks AF. Base wage for year one is correct but it will go up 6% in the second year so the numbers would stack up a little different.

The interest on backpay would certainy be one that could be calculated to see how much they pocket.

Ok SpannerTwister you wanted some answers and I won't use the same level of sarcasm, will just give it to you straight.

Post how this extra one service point does not help those members who need TRAINING points to advance.....

I won't do that. It does help them to a lesser extent. When they train (ha ha) they will most likely be able to advance as spots are being opened in the upper levels. They would not have been able to previously. One level at lvl 13 is 4.28% on top of the 3% for that year.

We may all laugh at the lack of training now but for those who have been around a bit longer we can make some assumptions. Bean counters like M come in and make grand statements about not requiring overtime or training. They invariably always get it wrong because they don't know the industry. ST - do you think that 24 A380 LAMEs worldwide will be enough to take care of the new aircraft? I think more training is on the way.

Post how this extra 1% super helps those in division 6 ALREADY getting 10%....

Ok I will. My understanding is that they would now get 11%. Still working on final words in the Agreement.

Post that the members who choose to salary sacrifice their Super will be paying contributions tax, and with the tax rates being much lower then previously, the great savings aren't there....

I'd be a little more accurate. Top tax bracket for most is 40%. Super contribution tax 15%. You will save 25% or 1/4 of your 5% compulsary contribution which is a 1.25% saving.

Post how much QF saves in payroll tax for each member who chooses to salary sacrifice their Super....

I could care less how much it costs or saves Qf. Intersted in getting more money in your pocket or super.

Post how one point which gets members their level increase in three years instead of four years helps pay their mortgages now ....

It doesn't. It helps them in 3 years time. Remember if they are level 3-4 they will get a 7.5% wage rise one year early and can put that on their mortgage then. 7.5% for one year in four, 7.3% for one year in four when he goes to the next level one year early and so on. This one point brings on your new level early every year even beyond the end of the agreement until you cap out. I'm sure you home loan is not a one year length, we have also looked at long term for wage boosts.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Remember SARS / Asian Financial Crisis / September 11th ??? We were told that during those "difficult economic times" how the company could only possibly afford to pay us 3% ?? Now that QF is making money by the bucket-load, if we cannot get more then inflation now, just when will we be able to ???

cont.

We had a wage freeze then not 3%. 3 points which was the same as 4.5% for the 18 month freeze.

This is the first combination of wages (3%) and a point (ave 1.5% depending on level). Add 1% super minimum and one year kick is 5.5%. For some this will be 4% first year and 4.5% in the year the service point takes them to a new level however you look at it.

For those in higher levels who attain a new grade or are free to move from where they are currently stuck, the new grade will give them at least 4.28% on top of 3% in one of the years.

Some will get the benifit of a point and move to level 9 which was previously restricted winning twice.

Yes the other years you will only get 3% but averaged out over time ths is a far better deal than previous ones.

cheers

[PitPin]

1 Point

So the Lame on Lvl 9 who is not in line for training gets no benefit as he/she has no service/training points to progress but everyone gets a step up ?
But of course the upper level 13 Lames always get taken care of ?

[chemical alli]

ill take my 3%,plus the interest lost on my pay for the last fifteen months at 7%,along with the interest on my super at 14.25%.unless backpay is indexed and interest calculated once again you have lost money.not to mention compounded interest on my mortage that has been lost

[The Mr Fixit]

My grandfather once told me if you're going to bet on a horse in a race bet on the one called Self Interest..................

[satos]

We had a wage freeze then not 3%. 3 points which was the same as 4.5% for the 18 month freeze.

Qantas offers a wage freeze to their employees during so called"hard times" a few years back yet still announces a record profit for that year.
Wake up people we are all being taken for a ride by Dixon and his cronies.
Inflation is up to 4% and climbing and yet they want to lock us in for a 4 year deal.Inflation at the end of the 4th year could rise to 6% and we are locked in for 3%.
VOTE NO.

[Torqueman]

ALAEA Fed Sec

Quote:
Post how one point which gets members their level increase in three years instead of four years helps pay their mortgages now ....
It doesn't. It helps them in 3 years time. Remember if they are level 3-4 they will get a 7.5% wage rise one year early and can put that on their mortgage then. 7.5% for one year in four, 7.3% for one year in four when he goes to the next level one year early and so on. This one point brings on your new level early every year even beyond the end of the agreement until you cap out. I'm sure you home loan is not a one year length, we have also looked at long term for wage boosts.

So tell me how this point improves the pay and conditions of someone who obtains their licence in six months time?

What about the future generation?

Is anything here improving the pay and conditions to attract decent people to this industry. Don't tell me their getting three percent because that is only just keeping with inflation.

[sickofqf]

Attention Fed Sec.

Here's my suggestion,

Vote yes, and carry on at work as if we voted no until DC, MH etc are shtcanned.

I can't see us getting any better without ALOT of grief and heartache.

.....but I really want to see the morons who are destroying QFE booted out the door and if the ZERO on time departures from SIT continue then that WILL happen.

Lets stay strong, stay united and make sure we are negotiating with different managers in 2 1/2 years.


MESSAGE TO FED SEC.

Have you inserted a clause forcing them to start EBA 9 negotiations in January 2010 so we stand a remote chance of completing it BEFORE the current one expires ???

[amos2]

So, let me get this straight...

you guys wanted 5 and Dixon & Co offered 3, am I right so far?

And if I am, then 4 was the obvious result (even Blind Freddie as well as the rest of us could see that)...

but your team settled on 3?

Someone like to explain this style of negotiation to me and a few others?

[Anulus Filler]

sickofqf

Have you inserted a clause forcing them to start EBA 9 negotiations in January 2010 so we stand a remote chance of completing it BEFORE the current one expires ???

Don't you mean July 2009????

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

you guys wanted 5 and Dixon & Co offered 3, am I right so far?

And if I am, then 4 was the obvious result (even Blind Freddie as well as the rest of us could see that)...

but your team settled on 3?

Just briefly this is not the case. We wanted 5 and didn't care how we got it. Most importantly was getting rid of the damaging Qf clauses. The qf clauses are gone and we have extras above 3%.

lvl 3 3% + 1-1.25% super + 1/4 level (1.87%) = 5.87%- 6.12% +3+3+3

lvl 8 3% + 1-1.25% super + 1/4 level (1.28%) = 5.28% - 5.53% +3+3+3
and will move to level 9 during agreement additional 5%

lvl 11 and now quota locked will move to new level
lvl 11 and not locked will have to wait until trained but now has chance to move to 12 that he could not before

lvl 13 and locked moves straight to new level 14.


You can play with the combos as you like but an average outcome across all members would likely to be close to 4% pa.


Just an update - we are having some difficulties getting a couple of managers to actually put the clauses in writing for us. In the words of one Exec member who phoned me today "That ***** (lets call him D) won't allow us to see how many members sit in each level to work out quota numbers". they have until COB Fri to get the clauses right or the action is back on.

[knuckledragger1]

Fed Sec,

Thankyou for the information

but please don't feed the trolls

i.e. AMOS2

re post #213 - "the rest of us could see that"

Amos2, whos is us?

who do you speak for?

or are you sprouting sh!t again?

[HotDog]

How many people who employ this catchphrase called "Troll" actually know what it means? Frequently it seems quite inappropriate to the subject under discussion

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response.