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-   -   Is Ukraine about to have a war? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/639666-ukraine-about-have-war.html)

ORAC 14th May 2022 13:51

Russia started the war with a total of around 180 BTG, of which 120 have been committed to the war so far.

Of the above they have to date lost around 53 BTG worth of men, IFV and tanks and continue to lose about 2/3s of a BTG a day. So in just over another week they will have lost over 30% of their total army and 50% of those committed to the war.

Worse, those remaining have been reconstituted with conscripts and forced recruits* and social media is rife with stories of Luhansk conscripts retreating to the Russian border and being threatened with execution to turn them back - and Russian reservists refusing to sign-up to go to Ukraine as they’ve heard the news and, without martial law or mobilisation, they can’t be made to go.

*Being issued with 1914 vintage Mosin–Nagants rifles and limited rounds per man - presumably so they they present a low risk of turning them on the Russian officers…

As the quality of the troops go down and the number of component officers being lost goes up (no NCOs), their loss rate vs the UKR army goes up - its now estimated at between 5:1 and 7:1.

Their is a military calculation as to the point at which an army will collapse into full scale retreat or surrender, a Lanchester Square collapse, and the current online forecasts for this to occur within the current invading force vary between an optimistic end of June and pessimistic mid-August.

e.g.

Moisin Nagant Rifle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin–Nagant

Sue Vêtements 14th May 2022 15:56


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11230079)
Head of the Ukraine intelligence believes the war will be over at the end of the year.

That would certainly be good, but there is a historical precedence for predicting "it'll all be over by Christmas" :(

macmp419 14th May 2022 16:42


Originally Posted by langleybaston (Post 11229932)
I would encourage it. Go for it.

With what?

I tend to agree, they would soon find themselves flat on their backside, never mind back foot…

Lonewolf_50 14th May 2022 16:47

Mortars and how they may integrate with aviation.
The Drive has a piece about laser guided mortar rounds.
Some decades ago, the 'copperhead' artillery round (Indirect fire) could be lased/designated by the sneaky recon types.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....4a1838f60e.jpg
Aviation Content Follows!
I can imagine an airborne IR targeting pod and these laser guided mortar shells working in tandem to make for some very lethal strikes using indirect fires on a variety of targets. I remember in the mid 1990's discussing the future of warfare with a USMC colonel, whose take was that the Marines needed to leave their M-1 Abrams to the Army and get with capabilities like guided mortars and 'bright' munitions to attack enemies from the top down. I daresay that his vision has at least in part come true, and I understand that the USMC divested themselves of tanks (and I am aware of a number of their UAV initiatives, but that's off topic for this discussion).
I wonder what the Russians are using to guide these laser guided mortar rounds to target: ground based or air based laser targeting kit? (And maybe both).

Petit-Lion 14th May 2022 18:23

Seven-feet long missile, wider than the barrel, and not lined up.

Ninthace 14th May 2022 18:36


Originally Posted by Petit-Lion (Post 11230249)
Seven-feet long missile, wider than the barrel, and not lined up.

They did include 3 sabots though if you enlarge the image,

Lonewolf_50 14th May 2022 18:48


Originally Posted by Petit-Lion (Post 11230249)
Seven-feet long missile, wider than the barrel, and not lined up.

Are you referring to this?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3ac5eda9e4.jpg
See the linked article, from which the photo was linked. Are you pretending that this mortar does not exist, or that the projectile was photo shopped into the picture?
I am not sure how you arrived at "wider than the barrel" and would like you to explain that to me. Thanks.

Petit-Lion 14th May 2022 18:57

Wider than the barrel, I'm not sure, it's a mortar after all. Of course this mortar exists. Pictures of the 240 mm rounds show them approx. 5 feet long. Your last picture suggests approx. 1535 mm from the 240 mm caliber. And it's not lined up by 1 or 2 degrees. Maybe an artilleryman would have something to say about the departure flame as well...

Speaking of which, this mortar does not have a mouth brake. So yes, "photoshopped".

Lonewolf_50 14th May 2022 19:10


Originally Posted by Petit-Lion (Post 11230262)
Speaking of which, this mortar does not have a mouth brake. So yes, "photoshopped".

Also possible that the picture was included but was of a different weapon going off than the one they were talking about?
Could be, would not be the first time.
By all means comment at The Drive on your reservations, they could probably use the feedback.

Maybe an artilleryman would have something to say about the departure flame as well...
Yeah, it did strike me as odd that a mortar would have that, but then I've never seen one bigger than 120mm go off IRL.

Petit-Lion 14th May 2022 19:29

Not wise to subscribe to The Drive, and then report a faked title picture in my first post ;)

NutLoose 14th May 2022 20:03

It’s remarkable how fast technology is advancing when needs must, a Dutch company had produced a rotary launcher for dropping mortar rounds.


fdr 14th May 2022 20:06

M-N
 

Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11230176)
Russia started the war with a total of around 180 BTG, of which 120 have been committed to the war so far.
Of the above they have to date lost around 53 BTG worth of men, IFV and tanks and continue to lose about 2/3s of a BTG a day. So in just over another week they will have lost over 30% of their total army and 50% of those committed to the war.
Worse, those remaining have been reconstituted with conscripts and forced recruits* and social media is rife with stories of Luhansk conscripts retreating to the Russian border and being threatened with execution to turn them back - and Russian reservists refusing to sign-up to go to Ukraine as they’ve heard the news and, without martial law or mobilisation, they can’t be made to go.

*Being issued with 1914 vintage Mosin–Nagants rifles and limited rounds per man - presumably so they they present a low risk of turning them on the Russian officers…

As the quality of the troops go down and the number of component officers being lost goes up (no NCOs), their loss rate vs the UKR army goes up - its now estimated at between 5:1 and 7:1.

Their is a military calculation as to the point at which an army will collapse into full scale retreat or surrender, a Lanchester Square collapse, and the current online forecasts for this to occur within the current invading force vary between an optimistic end of June and pessimistic mid-August.

Moisin Nagant Rifle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin–Nagant


In no particular order:
Mosin-Nagant in 7.62x54R can still be a high-powered accurate firearm. It has a slow rate of fire, but it is a capable bolt-action firearm. There is a logic to giving a low consumables firearm out in some cases, most of which is in keeping with the historical attitude of the Red Army towards its own people, let alone civilians.

Lanchesters N-square law has some constraints in application directly to Vlad's Grand Tour. It doesn't consider technological effects or asymmetric conflict directly, but that can all be assumed in the firepower effectiveness figures at least post hoc, if the data is valid. The effect of terrain, defensive structures etc also need to be considered separately or wrapped up in the effectriveness figures. Morale isn't included in the analysis, and in this conflict, as long as Ukraine is not actively attacking civilian populations in Russia there is an overwhelming home team advantage to Ukraine, they are getting support all round, whereas Red froces have to point guns at the backs of their own soldiers, and seem mose effecrtive in arresting and dismissing their own commanders. Ramsay (2008) sets out the current algorithm used to evalyate the CDB90 battle dataset, (DOD/Dupuy/HERO etc) which seem rational. The problem with doing numerical analysis is that as often as not it will be wrong; it is almost impossible to obtain a German victory in May 1940, yet that occurred, imperialist countries have routinely been booted out of countries that were posessed by force, and in mid february, fascinating strategic studoes at high level institutions were indicating the mathematical unacceptability of a war started by Russia in Ukraine. Not the first time irrational actions occurred. Davis (1995) sets out a discussion on Lanchesters N-Square law compared to the 3:1 rule.... which sets forth various examples where the N-Square or 3:1 rule don't work as expected (page 8, interesting read)

Red forces do already appear to be compromised for any attacks aimed at gaining territory. The Red forces maintain the ability to conduct wanton devastation, which undermines any legitamacy they may have ever been able to argue. The Blue & Gold Force can currently use an increasing indirect fire capability coupled with ISR at all levels to destroy Red forces inplace over time, and to interdict Red MSR.

Wild cards abound as always, including the sortie of the majority of the Kilos out of Sevastopol.

Time is not on the Reds side, nor on the world at large, there is an increasing potential for famine conditions to result from Russias aggrssion and the impact to global food supplies. An oddity of that is the countries most at risk of famine from the actions of Russia happen to be the countries that have sat back mutely abstaining from condemning Russian aggresssion. Odd.

John Boyd- Patterns

An interesting factor goes beyond what we arew itnessing at present, towards the consequences post conflict (Kugler et al, 2013), which indicate that more advanced societies recover faster and by greater amounts post conflict than underdeveloped societies. By any reasonable metric Russia is a failed state at present, reliant on its brutish menace to maintain relevacnce other than oil and gas, and armaments exports, all of which have been compromised by the establishment of the perrenial kleptocracy that holds back Russia's potential, yet satisfies the apparent need of it's population to be subjugated by a strong leadership, Stalin or Putin, or other Tsars. Ukraine has been the technical center of competency for the USSR and may well recover far faster than Russia


Davis, P. K., (1995). Aggregation, disaggregation, and the 3:1 rule in ground combat. Santa Monica, CA: Rand.
Dupuy, T. N. 1979. Numbers, predictions and war. Fairfax, VA: HERO Books.
Dupuy, T. N. 1995. Attrition: Forecasting battle casualties and equipment loss in modern war. Falls Church, VA: NOVA.
Klingberg, Frank L. "Predicting the Termination of War: Battle Casualties and Population Losses." Journal of conflict Resolution, vo1. 10, No. 2 (June 1966), pp. 129-171.
Kugler, T., Kang, K. kook, Kugler, J., Arbetman-Rabinowitz, M., & Thomas, J. (2013). Demographic and Economic Consequences of Conflict. International Studies Quarterly, 57(1), 1–12.
Ramsay, K. W. (2008). Settling It on the Field: Battlefield Events and War Termination.
The Journal of Conflict Resolution, 52(6), 850–879. http://www.jstor.org/stable/27638643

West Coast 14th May 2022 20:06


Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 (Post 11230226)
Mortars and how they may integrate with aviation.
The Drive has a piece about laser guided mortar rounds.
Some decades ago, the 'copperhead' artillery round (Indirect fire) could be lased/designated by the sneaky recon types.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....4a1838f60e.jpg
Aviation Content Follows!
I can imagine an airborne IR targeting pod and these laser guided mortar shells working in tandem to make for some very lethal strikes using indirect fires on a variety of targets. I remember in the mid 1990's discussing the future of warfare with a USMC colonel, whose take was that the Marines needed to leave their M-1 Abrams to the Army and get with capabilities like guided mortars and 'bright' munitions to attack enemies from the top down. I daresay that his vision has at least in part come true, and I understand that the USMC divested themselves of tanks (and I am aware of a number of their UAV initiatives, but that's off topic for this discussion).
I wonder what the Russians are using to guide these laser guided mortar rounds to target: ground based or air based laser targeting kit? (And maybe both).

Indeed the Commandant, Gen Berger has divested the Corps of tanks. He also is singular minded in his threat analysis. In my best Brady bunch voice, China, China, China. When he’s done, there’s only one war the Marine Corps will be prepared to fight, island hopping in the Pacific. What’s old is new again.
He has many detractors, from Mad Dog Mattis on down to me,

NutLoose 14th May 2022 20:11

This is one days losses as verified by oryxspioenkop that only goes by photo evidence, surely these losses can’t sustainable.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3e93a557e9.png

ORAC 14th May 2022 20:26

A day at the office…


Wokkafans 14th May 2022 20:29

"The exact moment Ukrainian artillery struck the Russian pontoon bridge near Bilohorivka a few days ago"

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFoota...eb2x&context=3

SASless 14th May 2022 20:31

When I see "Abandoned"....my question becomes "Why was the vehicle abandoned?".

If out of fuel...or crew legged it leaving it in working order....damaged but not recoverable....unserviceable due to mechanical failure or lack of spare parts.....all begins to tell the story.

Russians were supposed to be River Crossing experts....but two failed such crossings challenges that reputation.

One thing for sure....the automated gun turret on the tanks has been a gross failure judging by the Turret tossing they are being seen so good at doing when hit by an Anti-Tank weapon that penetrates the Turret.

ORAC 14th May 2022 20:36

Russian Annexation Report Highlight:

The Kremlin could threaten to use nuclear weapons against a Ukrainian counteroffensive into annexed territory to deter the ongoing Western military aid that would enable such a counteroffensive.

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...ptable-“-ramp”


NutLoose 14th May 2022 20:52

I some how think the reprisals would leave Russia a smoking hole in the ground, however if Putin Is terminal I’ll it won’t bother him, it might bother his military with families and might be endex for Putin ordering it.

NutLoose 14th May 2022 21:18

I just hope Russia is now waking up to the fact that conventionally wise they can no longer throw their weight around in any shape or form as the rest of the world will no longer stand by and let it happen as they did at the start of the Cold War.
I also hope they now realise that their nuclear card has been well and truly played and the western nations have played chicken with them and won.
They have lost, even if they do not yet realise it.


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