Airman Aircrew pay review
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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I want to be serious for a moment!!
Having been to a recent road show presentation, I would like to congratulate all the board members on a job extremely well done. I think the new system will be a winner and a huge improvement for our cadre. I believe they are a victory for common sense especially given today’s tight fiscal policies. There is still some work to be done with issues such as flying pay etc but the basic framework will come good, of that I am certain. Well done!
The horrendous mistakes of the past, such as the reserved rights fiasco to name but one CANNOT be corrected overnight. Those who are in now can only look to a much brighter future. I know that feelings run deep, and that some people think that they have lost out. Indeed I am one of them but hey, that's life isn't it? I only wish that these changes had been implemented 15 years ago. I know that I would have had far greater opportunities available along with a more varied working life.
Having been to a recent road show presentation, I would like to congratulate all the board members on a job extremely well done. I think the new system will be a winner and a huge improvement for our cadre. I believe they are a victory for common sense especially given today’s tight fiscal policies. There is still some work to be done with issues such as flying pay etc but the basic framework will come good, of that I am certain. Well done!
The horrendous mistakes of the past, such as the reserved rights fiasco to name but one CANNOT be corrected overnight. Those who are in now can only look to a much brighter future. I know that feelings run deep, and that some people think that they have lost out. Indeed I am one of them but hey, that's life isn't it? I only wish that these changes had been implemented 15 years ago. I know that I would have had far greater opportunities available along with a more varied working life.
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Wilts- yes was slightly the worse for wear.
Also ask the question of how come the flying pay issue was ratifies way back and still not being implemented as policy .
Also ask about promotion and the fact were all in the same pot now as from 1 apr despite being paid on different pay bands according to branch !!!!
As for the six matey , ain't no one coming near my ass unless she's blonde, stunning and has a jelly feel strap on attatched to her groin. Mmm sounds like I've been away too long !
Actually said man is doing fine and going down well at the moment , can't be said for some around the town though .
Also ask the question of how come the flying pay issue was ratifies way back and still not being implemented as policy .
Also ask about promotion and the fact were all in the same pot now as from 1 apr despite being paid on different pay bands according to branch !!!!
As for the six matey , ain't no one coming near my ass unless she's blonde, stunning and has a jelly feel strap on attatched to her groin. Mmm sounds like I've been away too long !
Actually said man is doing fine and going down well at the moment , can't be said for some around the town though .
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The way I see it is that the only way the RAF is going to productively tackle recruiting and retention is to make the RAF appealing - that will stop or at least slow down the PVR/NGR/IPP option exodus and solve the recruiting problem for all trades.
It comes down to that quality of life thing again, you know the one, the bit which was missed out of the Study. What benefits are there these days to joining or staying in the RAF. The FRI and the PA spine are just 'incentives' for the few, they don't go anywhere near what is required. Let's just throw a bit (not enough) money at some people and hope for the best. Who worked out how much you can buy a AA's loyalty for??
The problem doesn't stop at aircrew, look at the other trades in the RAF and see that the RAF is going down the pan.
I know we all are well paid (have a look in the appointments section of papers and see what sort of jobs you have to get to match our pay) BUT the quality of life in the Armed Forces must be the overiding factor. Apparently there is a QoL 'manual' knocking around the stations, anybody actually seem it?? I bet it doesn't get even close to what is needed.
At least the Moray council will be happy with all these people with 20K in there pockets. £100,000,000 a year into the local community from ISK and Lossie over the last 5 years.
It comes down to that quality of life thing again, you know the one, the bit which was missed out of the Study. What benefits are there these days to joining or staying in the RAF. The FRI and the PA spine are just 'incentives' for the few, they don't go anywhere near what is required. Let's just throw a bit (not enough) money at some people and hope for the best. Who worked out how much you can buy a AA's loyalty for??
The problem doesn't stop at aircrew, look at the other trades in the RAF and see that the RAF is going down the pan.
I know we all are well paid (have a look in the appointments section of papers and see what sort of jobs you have to get to match our pay) BUT the quality of life in the Armed Forces must be the overiding factor. Apparently there is a QoL 'manual' knocking around the stations, anybody actually seem it?? I bet it doesn't get even close to what is needed.
At least the Moray council will be happy with all these people with 20K in there pockets. £100,000,000 a year into the local community from ISK and Lossie over the last 5 years.
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Was suprised to see so few entries in this forum about the AASS. Has the cadre laid down and died, or did the threat of death by posting some gossip here before the release date by their airships do its job?!!
I'm set to gain something out of the AASS, a thin slice of FRI and the carrot dangle of PAS; shame the FRI wasn't 75% of the Officers rate this time! However being the cynic the RAF has turned me into, "computer problems implementing AP98", Oh please, spare me, we're not that niave! The real issue is there is no way NCA will get the same FP as their officer equivalents and the delay gives the purse holders enough time to massage the rates by 05/06.
The next couple of years will be interesting to see if the AFCOs can fill the recruitment hopper enough, otherwise the whole plan will go down the swanny and the coalface will bleed even more!
And on a last note, AA Webmaster, I know who you are!!
I'm set to gain something out of the AASS, a thin slice of FRI and the carrot dangle of PAS; shame the FRI wasn't 75% of the Officers rate this time! However being the cynic the RAF has turned me into, "computer problems implementing AP98", Oh please, spare me, we're not that niave! The real issue is there is no way NCA will get the same FP as their officer equivalents and the delay gives the purse holders enough time to massage the rates by 05/06.
The next couple of years will be interesting to see if the AFCOs can fill the recruitment hopper enough, otherwise the whole plan will go down the swanny and the coalface will bleed even more!
And on a last note, AA Webmaster, I know who you are!!
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Maniac and RC,
Oh but I wish I could ask the Q's you suggest but at the last minute the desert calls
OK It's only out to kebab platz, via the place where it's legal for a dad to murder his daughter if she brings shame on the family
radio 5 live today....what a fuc£in country, and back again but it means that I will miss fridays propganda excercise.................I can't belive gorilla fell for it
Hoping the guys in our office will be going in guns blazing and any feedback I get will be posted here asap..........for what use that will be.
Anyway all being well it's Polis friday night for a "full kebab with liver and no shish", the "Colonel" saturday lunchtime for United lots...Gooners little and then home sunday for "a mans rights"
In my dreams
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Oh but I wish I could ask the Q's you suggest but at the last minute the desert calls
OK It's only out to kebab platz, via the place where it's legal for a dad to murder his daughter if she brings shame on the family radio 5 live today....what a fuc£in country, and back again but it means that I will miss fridays propganda excercise.................I can't belive gorilla fell for it Hoping the guys in our office will be going in guns blazing and any feedback I get will be posted here asap..........for what use that will be.
Anyway all being well it's Polis friday night for a "full kebab with liver and no shish", the "Colonel" saturday lunchtime for United lots...Gooners little and then home sunday for "a mans rights"
In my dreams
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Last edited by Always_broken_in_wilts; 13th Feb 2003 at 10:34.
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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I left the RAF last year at my 38 option, as a pilot and at the rank I held I had a guaranteed career to 55 if I wanted it. Had I elected to stay, and it was my choice to go, I would have collected £30 000 AFTER tax at my option date merely for staying for another 5 years. I know several people in the same position who took exactly the same decision.
I had already decided to go when the retention incentives were announced and they did not even make me think twice about changing my mind. I have taken a very large pay cut, over 30% less, in my new career. BUT, am I happy? Yes I am. I get time off to spend with my family, enjoy my hobbies and watch the world go by. The money was never the issue for me, quality of life was the issue, and that is the nub of the problem for you guys.
When the FRIs for officer aircrew were announced the point was made that generally pay was not the issue, however, the non-remuneration issues were now so expensive to fix and would take so long that in the short term paying people a bit more to compensate was the only option.
Unfortunately this policy has come a little(!) too late. I have this theory that when people are a bit hacked off paying them a bit more will probably stop most of the gripes. However, if you wait until they get really hacked off the kind of sums necessary to make them happy again rapidly become unaffordable. I think that is now the situation. You have my sympathy, and we all know where that comes in the dictionary, but I think from what I have heard and given the fact that MoD genuinely is skint, what is being offered is probably the least worst solution in the circumstances.
I must say that I am a little shocked at the apparent divide between officer aircrew and non commissioned aircrew in some fleets. I spent my entire career working in a "mixed" environment and I always felt that we were a strong team. I also did everything I could to fight the corner for my team when I ultimately found myself in a command appointment. I would hope that all officers would take the same stance and that those who do not are the exception.
For what it's worth, and in my admittedly very limited experience of them, I think that quite a lot of people at Stn Cdr level and above try their best but the treasury squashes lots of good ideas on cost grounds, remember they are not generally allowed to come back and say "well we tried guys but it was turned down by Gordon" ( I saw some very strong comments by one senior officer about the FRIs for officers and the fact that an equivalent package was necessary for NCO aircrew ). However, the treasury is interested in paying the bare minimum required to get enough people to do the job. Sounds like this package reflects that.
For all of you on your way to sandy places, best of luck and take care.
I had already decided to go when the retention incentives were announced and they did not even make me think twice about changing my mind. I have taken a very large pay cut, over 30% less, in my new career. BUT, am I happy? Yes I am. I get time off to spend with my family, enjoy my hobbies and watch the world go by. The money was never the issue for me, quality of life was the issue, and that is the nub of the problem for you guys.
When the FRIs for officer aircrew were announced the point was made that generally pay was not the issue, however, the non-remuneration issues were now so expensive to fix and would take so long that in the short term paying people a bit more to compensate was the only option.
Unfortunately this policy has come a little(!) too late. I have this theory that when people are a bit hacked off paying them a bit more will probably stop most of the gripes. However, if you wait until they get really hacked off the kind of sums necessary to make them happy again rapidly become unaffordable. I think that is now the situation. You have my sympathy, and we all know where that comes in the dictionary, but I think from what I have heard and given the fact that MoD genuinely is skint, what is being offered is probably the least worst solution in the circumstances.
I must say that I am a little shocked at the apparent divide between officer aircrew and non commissioned aircrew in some fleets. I spent my entire career working in a "mixed" environment and I always felt that we were a strong team. I also did everything I could to fight the corner for my team when I ultimately found myself in a command appointment. I would hope that all officers would take the same stance and that those who do not are the exception.
For what it's worth, and in my admittedly very limited experience of them, I think that quite a lot of people at Stn Cdr level and above try their best but the treasury squashes lots of good ideas on cost grounds, remember they are not generally allowed to come back and say "well we tried guys but it was turned down by Gordon" ( I saw some very strong comments by one senior officer about the FRIs for officers and the fact that an equivalent package was necessary for NCO aircrew ). However, the treasury is interested in paying the bare minimum required to get enough people to do the job. Sounds like this package reflects that.
For all of you on your way to sandy places, best of luck and take care.
WarmInTheMiddle.
Whilst you are in our great crew room, presumably waiting for morning prayers that wont happen, can you pop out and turn my lights off. You could also give it a quick polish (the car, that is).
Arm is better, head is now sore. See you at the next Christmas party.
Cheers.
Whilst you are in our great crew room, presumably waiting for morning prayers that wont happen, can you pop out and turn my lights off. You could also give it a quick polish (the car, that is).
Arm is better, head is now sore. See you at the next Christmas party.
Cheers.
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Avtur: Ah Ha! - it IS you - how easily you fell for that "match the individual to his car" ploy. 
Will despatch a member of your Flt to polish it (the car) - but this will obviously have to be done tomorrow as they've all (as usual) b*ggered off for the day. Reference the Christmas party - I've cleared my diary for Jul 04 in anticipation..... Will see you soon somewhere
Will despatch a member of your Flt to polish it (the car) - but this will obviously have to be done tomorrow as they've all (as usual) b*ggered off for the day. Reference the Christmas party - I've cleared my diary for Jul 04 in anticipation..... Will see you soon somewhere
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Manualtilt,
Agree, I also expected this thread to be chocka by now - it's most un-AA-like not to be wingeing at max chat on this subject !
With ref to your comment "The next couple of years will be interesting to see if the AFCOs can fill the recruitment hopper enough, otherwise the whole plan will go down the swanny and the coalface will bleed even more! "
Would it help recruitment if the MACR that will be involved with future NCA selection at AVCO's explained to the perspective candidates the history of the treatment of un-commissioned aircrew compared to the commisioned variety ?
Please don't acuse me of looking backwards when we are encouraged to look forward, but remember it pays to look over your shoulder when in fear of iminent back-stabbing.
Perhaps the next aircrew review will recommend that ALL aircrew should be Non-Commisioned. Think of the money that could be saved - now where's that GEMS form !
H-R
Warm-I-T-M
Judging from the time of your post, looks like you also bu@@ered off early as usual ! Pot - Kettle etc
Agree, I also expected this thread to be chocka by now - it's most un-AA-like not to be wingeing at max chat on this subject !
With ref to your comment "The next couple of years will be interesting to see if the AFCOs can fill the recruitment hopper enough, otherwise the whole plan will go down the swanny and the coalface will bleed even more! "
Would it help recruitment if the MACR that will be involved with future NCA selection at AVCO's explained to the perspective candidates the history of the treatment of un-commissioned aircrew compared to the commisioned variety ?
Please don't acuse me of looking backwards when we are encouraged to look forward, but remember it pays to look over your shoulder when in fear of iminent back-stabbing.
Perhaps the next aircrew review will recommend that ALL aircrew should be Non-Commisioned. Think of the money that could be saved - now where's that GEMS form !
H-R
Warm-I-T-M
Judging from the time of your post, looks like you also bu@@ered off early as usual ! Pot - Kettle etc
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Pay gripe
Well yet again the "flying club" are moaning..!! if you dont like it, PVR, someone else would probably take your job on for the same wage you are getting.
£20k bonus at 17yr point !! for what ?? doing the job your paid to do...
When i joined, there was no bonuses/retention schemes...
Now theres a 4yr and 7yr bonus for groundcrew..
Is this not discrimination ?? against those already serving..
Promotion...
To get promoted these days you need:-
1. Be Formally Warned
2. Been Charged for a serious offence ie Theft/Fraud/GBH/D and D
3. Been stuck on same posting for decades, so yr Sh1T at only one job.
4. Never done an OOA.
5. Fornicate with someones else's wife, esp at high level.
If you've never been charged,never formally warned,gained your LSGCM, done loads of OOA, never had the boss's wife after a beer call...promo prospects....ZERO..!!!
Because your file is in the admin black hole collecting more dust..!!
why, you aint done anything wrong to prove you can comply with the "system" by changing your ways.
Yet more discrimination...!!
FWIW, Vicky Ten Capt, asked where his Loadmaster was to a rampy,, Capt thought Loadie was stuffing baggage into belly holds...So much for the educated flying club...
LL
£20k bonus at 17yr point !! for what ?? doing the job your paid to do...
When i joined, there was no bonuses/retention schemes...
Now theres a 4yr and 7yr bonus for groundcrew..
Is this not discrimination ?? against those already serving..
Promotion...
To get promoted these days you need:-
1. Be Formally Warned
2. Been Charged for a serious offence ie Theft/Fraud/GBH/D and D
3. Been stuck on same posting for decades, so yr Sh1T at only one job.
4. Never done an OOA.
5. Fornicate with someones else's wife, esp at high level.
If you've never been charged,never formally warned,gained your LSGCM, done loads of OOA, never had the boss's wife after a beer call...promo prospects....ZERO..!!!
Because your file is in the admin black hole collecting more dust..!!
why, you aint done anything wrong to prove you can comply with the "system" by changing your ways.
Yet more discrimination...!!
FWIW, Vicky Ten Capt, asked where his Loadmaster was to a rampy,, Capt thought Loadie was stuffing baggage into belly holds...So much for the educated flying club...
LL
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Dear LL
There is nobody applying to do our job, thats why they have had a review and are giving the money, well to some anyway.
Oh yeah, take your own advice, if you don't like it PVR!!!
There is nobody applying to do our job, thats why they have had a review and are giving the money, well to some anyway.
Oh yeah, take your own advice, if you don't like it PVR!!!
Last edited by escapee; 14th Feb 2003 at 13:28.
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airman aircrew pay review
Warm in the middle . . . .
Although I'm happy to be quoted as being unhappy with the leadership it was not my view that I was expressing but that of the board. You may not have had the opportunity to attend the brief but it was the briefing officers that suggestd that there was a serious lack of confidence amongst the trades in the leadership and upon recognition of this problem it was decided that action would be taken to remedy the problem.
'Nuff said.
Although I'm happy to be quoted as being unhappy with the leadership it was not my view that I was expressing but that of the board. You may not have had the opportunity to attend the brief but it was the briefing officers that suggestd that there was a serious lack of confidence amongst the trades in the leadership and upon recognition of this problem it was decided that action would be taken to remedy the problem.
'Nuff said.
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Colleagues, whilst I too feel that there are many issues which have not been adressed by the review, I do believe a genuine attempt has been made.
I don't believe money is the prime gripe, consequently I don't believe it is a good solution. FRI are a blunt sword.
NCA (look how up to date I am) are intelligent people (on the whole) which is why their prime gripes are QOL issues such as career management and leadership. The first 'push' factor listed on the Review brief was lack of confidence in the leadership. This has been partly addressed by the attempt to place a new emphasis on the employment of MACR. Well overdue in my opinion. However, I believe the solution to the 'lack of respect' claim is partly in our own hands. If you want to be treated with respect, you have to walk the talk. Many of us just want to fly and act as if our rank is an inonvenience. This gets us treated like highly paid SACs. Like it or not we are SNCOs first and aircrew second. (That'll get me flamed for sure!)
To put my opinions in perspective, I'm in my 18th year (so only a part FRI for me) and will be getting out age 40. This is despite LOVING the job I do. We are nibbled to death by ducks and cash is not the answer.
Standing by to get punched.
I don't believe money is the prime gripe, consequently I don't believe it is a good solution. FRI are a blunt sword.
NCA (look how up to date I am) are intelligent people (on the whole) which is why their prime gripes are QOL issues such as career management and leadership. The first 'push' factor listed on the Review brief was lack of confidence in the leadership. This has been partly addressed by the attempt to place a new emphasis on the employment of MACR. Well overdue in my opinion. However, I believe the solution to the 'lack of respect' claim is partly in our own hands. If you want to be treated with respect, you have to walk the talk. Many of us just want to fly and act as if our rank is an inonvenience. This gets us treated like highly paid SACs. Like it or not we are SNCOs first and aircrew second. (That'll get me flamed for sure!)
To put my opinions in perspective, I'm in my 18th year (so only a part FRI for me) and will be getting out age 40. This is despite LOVING the job I do. We are nibbled to death by ducks and cash is not the answer.
Standing by to get punched.
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Left 1 o'clock ...
Not wanting to 'flame' or punch you but I think you'll find that you were employed primarily as AIRCREW, not as a SNCO. Unlike the commissioned GD aircrew variety who were primarily employed for General Duties.
Not wanting to 'flame' or punch you but I think you'll find that you were employed primarily as AIRCREW, not as a SNCO. Unlike the commissioned GD aircrew variety who were primarily employed for General Duties.
LogisticsLoader:
You sound like a UKMOANS type. (If you are not, you should be). So congratulations on being detested by every person that your trade encounters.
Oh! This is a Military AIRCREW site,.so find your own ramp to bounce on, or get back to your pond.
Left One O Clock: No punches from me!
WarmIn The Middle: Im glad you know who I am; If you are TC, HELP US HERE! , JS, hope your course went well, and if SP, how come you can afford to be on the Internet when you cant afford a round?
You sound like a UKMOANS type. (If you are not, you should be). So congratulations on being detested by every person that your trade encounters.
Oh! This is a Military AIRCREW site,.so find your own ramp to bounce on, or get back to your pond.
Left One O Clock: No punches from me!
WarmIn The Middle: Im glad you know who I am; If you are TC, HELP US HERE! , JS, hope your course went well, and if SP, how come you can afford to be on the Internet when you cant afford a round?
Last edited by Avtur; 14th Feb 2003 at 19:47.
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shandyman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You said " it was the briefing officers that suggested that there was a serious lack of confidence amongst the trades in the leadership and upon recognition of this problem it was decided that action would be taken to remedy the problem"
NOTHING PERSONAL; CHOSEN FROM A CAST OF .....
Yes, I have attended the brief and I cannot understand why NCA - (okay, I am now on the "dark side") - knock almost EVERYTHING that is sent to try and improve our/your lot. I am now commissioned - and therefore detached in some/many people's view - but those who know me (some of you may recognize the nomenclature), know it takes a lot to rile me and, hopefully, realize that I do not type the following lightly.
RANT ON:
Many of you, again, are doing the NCA World an immense dis-service; the offer of a change of direction, however it is sold must not be seen as downbeat and nothing more than a pessimistic solution. There is positive in the recent review and it offers a new course of action to you as NCA. It is for you to take on this "offer" and make something of it; only then, finally and deservedly, will you achieve pay parity and avoid the "pay banding" discord! The empowerment (made up business phrase) of the NCA Cadre must now offer a positive future - if you are willing to take the plunge and work to make it succeed. Our/Your Overlords have punted for safety and set out the future. It is certainly better than some futures that might have been implemented! You must see that this future, now set, is somewhat more positive, for the majority, than that previously offered.
You have little choice if you do not agree with the decision of the AFB...TOUGH. It is the new reality. This is THE future path and, as compared to that that could have been offered, it is workable? I hope and believe so.
For once you must try to work for a common future - the proactive successful and forward thinking NCA progression - it is now a possibility, not just a "dream" as it may have seemed a few years ago. I "Wait out".....
left one o clock - Well said!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You said " it was the briefing officers that suggested that there was a serious lack of confidence amongst the trades in the leadership and upon recognition of this problem it was decided that action would be taken to remedy the problem"
NOTHING PERSONAL; CHOSEN FROM A CAST OF .....
Yes, I have attended the brief and I cannot understand why NCA - (okay, I am now on the "dark side") - knock almost EVERYTHING that is sent to try and improve our/your lot. I am now commissioned - and therefore detached in some/many people's view - but those who know me (some of you may recognize the nomenclature), know it takes a lot to rile me and, hopefully, realize that I do not type the following lightly.
RANT ON:
Many of you, again, are doing the NCA World an immense dis-service; the offer of a change of direction, however it is sold must not be seen as downbeat and nothing more than a pessimistic solution. There is positive in the recent review and it offers a new course of action to you as NCA. It is for you to take on this "offer" and make something of it; only then, finally and deservedly, will you achieve pay parity and avoid the "pay banding" discord! The empowerment (made up business phrase) of the NCA Cadre must now offer a positive future - if you are willing to take the plunge and work to make it succeed. Our/Your Overlords have punted for safety and set out the future. It is certainly better than some futures that might have been implemented! You must see that this future, now set, is somewhat more positive, for the majority, than that previously offered.
You have little choice if you do not agree with the decision of the AFB...TOUGH. It is the new reality. This is THE future path and, as compared to that that could have been offered, it is workable? I hope and believe so.
For once you must try to work for a common future - the proactive successful and forward thinking NCA progression - it is now a possibility, not just a "dream" as it may have seemed a few years ago. I "Wait out".....
left one o clock - Well said!