Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
Perhaps it was too much to expect a straighforward reply
I know, naughty step for me, for not being polite - but its alright, JP won't see it because I'm on his ignore list!
Wrathmonk:
Lucky you, but how did you manage that? I guess that inevitably there must be a waiting list?
...but its alright, JP won't see it because I'm on his ignore list!
Radio 4 this am about RAF crash investigation and improper pressure brought to bear on investigators findings. Find it Radio 4 Today website approx 7:45 to 8am
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Baston,
He was happy with the status quo because it suits the MoD's purposes. He didn't actually aswer the question put to him - "Has the report ever been accepted or implemented?" The answer is no, it hasn't.
Mr Jones made som other interesting points:
The AAIB are independent - The AAIB are actually contracted by the MoD and are, technically (no pun intended) employed for that task.
If a 'Review' changes the findings of a Board, there is a clear audit trail. Really? I would like to see that in this case.
Technical lessons are learnt - And what would they be in this case? Particularly as the airworthiness history of the Mk2 was not specifically mentioned in the terms of reference set by the Senior Officers.
The Report assists the Coroner - How come that the MoD released the AAIB report to the Procurator Fiscal in Jun '95, but told him that it could not be used in evidence? Only after the Procurator Fiscal asked the Crown Office to intervene (in Aug '95) was he given permission.
His comment about those who were serving was a typical barbed dig at those with courage to speak out. Bast0n, did you know of the existence of the Tench Report? Have you read it? The Minister is trying to make out that this Report has been readily available for many years. It hasn't.
I'm afraid, Bast0n, that your minister was less than convincing. His non-answers may fool those unfamiliar with the case, but not so those who have followed it since the initial injustice.
The Campaign continues.
My best, as always,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
He was happy with the status quo because it suits the MoD's purposes. He didn't actually aswer the question put to him - "Has the report ever been accepted or implemented?" The answer is no, it hasn't.
Mr Jones made som other interesting points:
The AAIB are independent - The AAIB are actually contracted by the MoD and are, technically (no pun intended) employed for that task.
If a 'Review' changes the findings of a Board, there is a clear audit trail. Really? I would like to see that in this case.
Technical lessons are learnt - And what would they be in this case? Particularly as the airworthiness history of the Mk2 was not specifically mentioned in the terms of reference set by the Senior Officers.
The Report assists the Coroner - How come that the MoD released the AAIB report to the Procurator Fiscal in Jun '95, but told him that it could not be used in evidence? Only after the Procurator Fiscal asked the Crown Office to intervene (in Aug '95) was he given permission.
His comment about those who were serving was a typical barbed dig at those with courage to speak out. Bast0n, did you know of the existence of the Tench Report? Have you read it? The Minister is trying to make out that this Report has been readily available for many years. It hasn't.
I'm afraid, Bast0n, that your minister was less than convincing. His non-answers may fool those unfamiliar with the case, but not so those who have followed it since the initial injustice.
The Campaign continues.
My best, as always,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
For those who missed the item, it can be found at 01.35.45 with the Min Def (Kevin Jones) response at 02.46.35 on: BBC iPlayer - Today: 02/09/2009
The point is that the report on Military Accident Investigation (ie BoI's) by Chief Air Accident Inspector William Trench was done in 1986! It found that BoI's had outlived their usefulness, that they achieved only mediocre standards by complete novices and were subject to interference by Senior Officers. Somewhat prescient given the subject of this thread some 8 years later? The 31 deaths that Angus Stickler mentions are from the Hercules (10), Nimrod (14) and Sea King (7) accidents. It is my belief that the airworthiness related death toll should be at least 60, ie should include the Chinook Mull accident (29).
The point is that the report on Military Accident Investigation (ie BoI's) by Chief Air Accident Inspector William Trench was done in 1986! It found that BoI's had outlived their usefulness, that they achieved only mediocre standards by complete novices and were subject to interference by Senior Officers. Somewhat prescient given the subject of this thread some 8 years later? The 31 deaths that Angus Stickler mentions are from the Hercules (10), Nimrod (14) and Sea King (7) accidents. It is my belief that the airworthiness related death toll should be at least 60, ie should include the Chinook Mull accident (29).
Last edited by Chugalug2; 2nd Sep 2009 at 13:57. Reason: Words dear boy, words.
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Brian
I totally agree with you. The Minister was quite appauling in his deviousness.
Audit trails - Huh!
Tench report - no I did not know of it - how many do?
Politicians - don't we just love 'em............................
PS Brian - he is your minister as well! He is not my personal responsibility mores the pity.
I totally agree with you. The Minister was quite appauling in his deviousness.
Audit trails - Huh!
Tench report - no I did not know of it - how many do?
Politicians - don't we just love 'em............................
PS Brian - he is your minister as well! He is not my personal responsibility mores the pity.
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Indeed, Bast0n.
If only some Ministers were our personal responsibility, we could practice our best Alan Sugar impression!
"You're fired!"
Kind regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
If only some Ministers were our personal responsibility, we could practice our best Alan Sugar impression!
"You're fired!"
Kind regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Chinook ZD576
Bob Ainsworth has rejected "Powers" report and won't have a judge review the Chinook crash evidence: bit.ly/Cwutl
But Conservative Central Office has confirmed that it is party policy to have a review of the evidence by a senior judge. bit.ly/cm3tH
It's interesting that the MoD press office, when asked by Computer Weekly for a reaction to the Tory party's policy commitment to appoint a senior judge, decided not to reply.
But Conservative Central Office has confirmed that it is party policy to have a review of the evidence by a senior judge. bit.ly/cm3tH
It's interesting that the MoD press office, when asked by Computer Weekly for a reaction to the Tory party's policy commitment to appoint a senior judge, decided not to reply.
Your input as one so well versed in the limitations and difficulties in discovering faulty code as a possible cause of an accident is as welcome as ever, Tony. The Computer Weekly piece is at:Tories commit to Chinook crash review | 3 Sep 2009 | ComputerWeekly.com
It is as notable as ever that institutions exterior to the MOD, be they technical, legal or political, can see so clearly what the MOD and its apologists refuse to concede, that this finding was a travesty, that the Accident Investigation was a travesty, that two junior officers were the scapegoats of a dysfunctional and disreputable system. It has become a further scandal that this scandal continues. The Royal Air Force is shamed by this deceit.
Let Right Be Done!
It is as notable as ever that institutions exterior to the MOD, be they technical, legal or political, can see so clearly what the MOD and its apologists refuse to concede, that this finding was a travesty, that the Accident Investigation was a travesty, that two junior officers were the scapegoats of a dysfunctional and disreputable system. It has become a further scandal that this scandal continues. The Royal Air Force is shamed by this deceit.
Let Right Be Done!
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Chinook crash
It's important that Conservative Central Office has confirmed to us that a review of Chinook evidence is party policy.
Various Tory MPs have said in the past that they'll have a review if they win power. But things could be different if they get into office and realise that a review would put them in opposition to the MoD. It would probably be easy for the party to avoid having a review saying it wasn't in the manifesto; and it would be difficult for the media to hold the Tories to a review on the basis of ad hoc comments made by individual MPs.
A commitment to a review from Central Office will be difficult to back away from.
Various Tory MPs have said in the past that they'll have a review if they win power. But things could be different if they get into office and realise that a review would put them in opposition to the MoD. It would probably be easy for the party to avoid having a review saying it wasn't in the manifesto; and it would be difficult for the media to hold the Tories to a review on the basis of ad hoc comments made by individual MPs.
A commitment to a review from Central Office will be difficult to back away from.
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Tony,
I just wanted to publically thank you for all your hard work in getting the Conservative Party to recognise the concerns over the injustice and to obtain a firm commitment from them to place everyting before a Senior Judge.
Kind regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
I just wanted to publically thank you for all your hard work in getting the Conservative Party to recognise the concerns over the injustice and to obtain a firm commitment from them to place everyting before a Senior Judge.
Kind regards,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
House of Commons
London SW1A 0AA
London SW1A 0AA
Monday, 10th July 2006
Dear (BEagle)
Thank you for your further e-mails about the Chinook accident.
You ask whether I would take early action to reinstate the reputations of the pilots if I form the next Government.
As I mentioned in my previous letter to you, I do believe that the reputations of the two pilots deserve to be reinstated, as the Lords Select Committee recommended, and in the absence of any overwhelming argument presented to me as Prime Minister that is what I would do.
Yours sincerely,
David Cameron
Beags, I notice that Mr Cameron says in his letter to you:
It seems to me that would be a case of "far too little, far too late". If that had been done at the very outset not only would those who have clamoured for such an outcome have been appeased, but all that has emerged since to explain why such a bizarre position was taken by the MOD and the RAF might never have come to light. Ironic then that the very cover up that followed has ensured that we now know that the Chinook Mk2 was granted a restricted RTS while suffering from very serious airworthiness shortcomings and that this was known by both organisations. A calculated risk was taken which backfired tragically and dramatically. That was the reality that drove the shameful machinations that followed. Instead of the BoI addressing the systemic failings that led to this accident, they were covered up and the blame laid on two deceased junior officers by the AMs' findings. As a result further airworthiness related accidents followed, Sea King, Hercules and Nimrod alone accounting for a further 31 avoidable deaths. What should have been done 15 years ago must now follow, a complete reform of UK Military Airworthiness Provision and Accident Investigation. Both functions must be wrested from the MOD and RAF respectively and placed into independent and professional hands. If Mr Cameron can see to that then some good will have come out of this blot to the honour of the RAF, if he cannot then more avoidable military air accidents and more needless deaths due to compromised airworthiness will surely follow.
I do believe that the reputations of the two pilots deserve to be reinstated, as the Lords Select Committee recommended, and in the absence of any overwhelming argument presented to me as Prime Minister that is what I would do.
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Brian
Thank you for the comment, but getting Central Office to make a policy commitment to appointing a senior judge was much helped by the fact that the campaign has continued to this day. This is thanks to you, the families, peers, MPs and many individuals. Not forgetting PPRuNe.
Incidentally in seeking a commitment from Central Office I quoted BEagle's letter from David Cameron, as quoted on PPRune.
It has always struck me as remarkable, by the way, that the press was being briefed informally within days of the accident - long before the BOI - that it was the fault of the pilots.
Thank you for the comment, but getting Central Office to make a policy commitment to appointing a senior judge was much helped by the fact that the campaign has continued to this day. This is thanks to you, the families, peers, MPs and many individuals. Not forgetting PPRuNe.
Incidentally in seeking a commitment from Central Office I quoted BEagle's letter from David Cameron, as quoted on PPRune.
It has always struck me as remarkable, by the way, that the press was being briefed informally within days of the accident - long before the BOI - that it was the fault of the pilots.
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Tony Collins
<<It has always struck me as remarkable, by the way, that the press was being briefed informally within days of the accident - long before the BOI - that it was the fault of the pilots.>>
I have the opinion that it was desired to blame the pilots beyond any doubt whatsoever from the very outset so as to counter any public disquiet about this crash - can you imagine how the people of NI could have reacted if there had been a perception of the possibility of foul play? Had to be nipped in the bud real quick, eh? Had it just been an exercise gone wrong innocently, it would still have been such an almighty blow to the RAF that, I suggest, they would have moved very quickly to sacrifice the fall guys.
This latter case is, I suggest, how the majority of RAF personnel perceive this crash and understandably tow the line in not exposing any such exercise - unfortunately, this strategy hides any potential wilful act that screwed up any such exercise - sort of leaves the RAF as a body guilty of being an accessory after the fact, however unwitting, had this been the case.
<<It has always struck me as remarkable, by the way, that the press was being briefed informally within days of the accident - long before the BOI - that it was the fault of the pilots.>>
I have the opinion that it was desired to blame the pilots beyond any doubt whatsoever from the very outset so as to counter any public disquiet about this crash - can you imagine how the people of NI could have reacted if there had been a perception of the possibility of foul play? Had to be nipped in the bud real quick, eh? Had it just been an exercise gone wrong innocently, it would still have been such an almighty blow to the RAF that, I suggest, they would have moved very quickly to sacrifice the fall guys.
This latter case is, I suggest, how the majority of RAF personnel perceive this crash and understandably tow the line in not exposing any such exercise - unfortunately, this strategy hides any potential wilful act that screwed up any such exercise - sort of leaves the RAF as a body guilty of being an accessory after the fact, however unwitting, had this been the case.
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I should add that, whatever the reasoning behind the initial finding of blame on the pilots, this political plus (putting the public at ease) may be reversed if the pilots are cleared and so any decision to do so would not be taken lightly.
This means that there has to be a strong case – not just legal niceties or appeals for clemency, as it were.
I would suggest that the only way of clearing their names in the forseeable future would be to dig deep and establish what else they may have been tasked with – there is, after all, plenty of evidence that this could have been the case – it just requires aircrew of the time (who would have credibility and authority) to come forward with their knowledge of equipment and procedures to acknowledge the significance and relevence of the many parameters I have pointed out.
It would be difficult for the first individuals to come forward, putting in their bit before being sure it is going anywhere while incurring the wrath of the system – a big ask? - just think of the injustice against the pilots, the lack of justice for the team that was lost and their colleagues who also had fought so long in vain, their families, and the people of the whole of the island of Ireland who have been so dis-enfranchised by the peace process that could only have come about with this crash removing those staunchly against it.
This means that there has to be a strong case – not just legal niceties or appeals for clemency, as it were.
I would suggest that the only way of clearing their names in the forseeable future would be to dig deep and establish what else they may have been tasked with – there is, after all, plenty of evidence that this could have been the case – it just requires aircrew of the time (who would have credibility and authority) to come forward with their knowledge of equipment and procedures to acknowledge the significance and relevence of the many parameters I have pointed out.
It would be difficult for the first individuals to come forward, putting in their bit before being sure it is going anywhere while incurring the wrath of the system – a big ask? - just think of the injustice against the pilots, the lack of justice for the team that was lost and their colleagues who also had fought so long in vain, their families, and the people of the whole of the island of Ireland who have been so dis-enfranchised by the peace process that could only have come about with this crash removing those staunchly against it.
it just requires aircrew of the time (who would have credibility and authority) to come forward with their knowledge of equipment and procedures to acknowledge the significance and relevence of the many parameters I have pointed out.
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Sir John - Poorly Advised?
I still have a degree of sympathy with Sir John because I believe he received incomplete and over-opinionated advice from his HQ staff. This was particularly the case in respect of the members of his Flight Safety Cell, who appeared to be content to rush to judgement in this case. I never got the impression that either of them understood that the degree of proof required in this case was absolute.
Sir John did an immense amount of good during his Service career. Sadly, in this case, based partly on advice received, he plumped for a finding which was never open to him, according to the unambiguous written word – often quoted in this topic.
It is normally never too late to alter one's position. It will be if Mr Cameron becomes PM, announces a reversal, and rubs Sir John's nose in the brown stuff. I urge Sir John to act to avoid this humiliation. Along with the deceased pilots, his own reputation would be rightly restored.
Sir John did an immense amount of good during his Service career. Sadly, in this case, based partly on advice received, he plumped for a finding which was never open to him, according to the unambiguous written word – often quoted in this topic.
It is normally never too late to alter one's position. It will be if Mr Cameron becomes PM, announces a reversal, and rubs Sir John's nose in the brown stuff. I urge Sir John to act to avoid this humiliation. Along with the deceased pilots, his own reputation would be rightly restored.