Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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Chortle! I wouldn't go too hard on Robo-thon as he is not the sharpest tool in the box shall we say!
Also, despite the merits of the case, not all MPs share our views in the justice of the cause, a certain Mr Fatty Soames for one, and John Wilkinson come to mind.
So we cannot expect all MPs to sign, no matter how much we badger them.
Also, despite the merits of the case, not all MPs share our views in the justice of the cause, a certain Mr Fatty Soames for one, and John Wilkinson come to mind.
So we cannot expect all MPs to sign, no matter how much we badger them.
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OK moment of madness over........... back to business! (See, I have got a sense of humour)
Wow! 144 signatures on the EDM. Great reward for a fantastic effort.
More updates as and when.
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Wow! 144 signatures on the EDM. Great reward for a fantastic effort.
More updates as and when.
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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Here's a useful link for all MPs:
http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/alms.htm
May make it easier for some of you to make contact.
Regards
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/alms.htm
May make it easier for some of you to make contact.
Regards
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Last edited by Brian Dixon; 12th Jul 2002 at 19:34.
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Taken from today's 'News in Brief' section of the Sunday Telegraph:
Hoon 'will not clear Chinook pilots'
Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, will this week reject calls to clear two pilots blamed for the crash of a Chinook helicopter in which 29 people died.
The ministry of Defence is to release a new simulation of the aircraft's last minutes before it crashed into the Mull of Kintyre in 1994, killing all crewmen and 25 senior RUC and MI5 intelligence officers.
Ministers claim that it proves the RAF was right to find the pilots, Flight Lieutenants Richard Cook and Michael Tapper guilty of "gross negligence". END
I hope the full details of the simulation will be made public and that a Chinook can actually fly within the suggested parameters this time (unlike the last simulation!).
I don't believe it proves anything. I think I recall someone describing to their Lordships that a simulation was a 'best guess'. Hardly enough for absolutely no doubt whatsoever, is it? What about all the other areas of doubt? Do the MoD and Ministers think we will forget about them? Well, we won't. Why has this particular simulation taken 8 years to come about? That proves negligence, Mr Hoon - your department's!
Announce your finding just before the Summer Recess, and run away. I'll be here upon your return, with many more questions that need answers.
We must not let the Govenment get away with this ever increasingly obvious cover up!
Keep up the good work everyone.
Regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Hoon 'will not clear Chinook pilots'
Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, will this week reject calls to clear two pilots blamed for the crash of a Chinook helicopter in which 29 people died.
The ministry of Defence is to release a new simulation of the aircraft's last minutes before it crashed into the Mull of Kintyre in 1994, killing all crewmen and 25 senior RUC and MI5 intelligence officers.
Ministers claim that it proves the RAF was right to find the pilots, Flight Lieutenants Richard Cook and Michael Tapper guilty of "gross negligence". END
I hope the full details of the simulation will be made public and that a Chinook can actually fly within the suggested parameters this time (unlike the last simulation!).
I don't believe it proves anything. I think I recall someone describing to their Lordships that a simulation was a 'best guess'. Hardly enough for absolutely no doubt whatsoever, is it? What about all the other areas of doubt? Do the MoD and Ministers think we will forget about them? Well, we won't. Why has this particular simulation taken 8 years to come about? That proves negligence, Mr Hoon - your department's!
Announce your finding just before the Summer Recess, and run away. I'll be here upon your return, with many more questions that need answers.
We must not let the Govenment get away with this ever increasingly obvious cover up!
Keep up the good work everyone.
Regards, as always.
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
From Hansard, 19 Mar 02, column 247:
David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden): My earlier point was that the flaw in the air marshals’ argument in the first instance was the heavy reliance on that (original) simulation. All it amounts to is an electronic guess; it is a postulation of what might have happened. Even if we accept that the Secretary of State cannot comment on the underpinning of the re-analysis - I do not accept that but let us take it as read for the moment - surely he can tell us that independent oversight of the re-run of the simulation is possible. We should not simply leave it to Boeing, which is, after all, parti pris in this exercise; it has an interest in the reputation of its helicopter. No one would accept a simulation or evidence that depends solely on those who have something to gain from the continuance of this miscarriage of justice.
Mr. Hoon: I am prepared to make the evidence produced in the light of the remodelling process available for independent analysis. I shall certainly make it available to the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden, and others in the campaign will be able to subject it to appropriate scrutiny.
Has he, Brian?
David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden): My earlier point was that the flaw in the air marshals’ argument in the first instance was the heavy reliance on that (original) simulation. All it amounts to is an electronic guess; it is a postulation of what might have happened. Even if we accept that the Secretary of State cannot comment on the underpinning of the re-analysis - I do not accept that but let us take it as read for the moment - surely he can tell us that independent oversight of the re-run of the simulation is possible. We should not simply leave it to Boeing, which is, after all, parti pris in this exercise; it has an interest in the reputation of its helicopter. No one would accept a simulation or evidence that depends solely on those who have something to gain from the continuance of this miscarriage of justice.
Mr. Hoon: I am prepared to make the evidence produced in the light of the remodelling process available for independent analysis. I shall certainly make it available to the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden, and others in the campaign will be able to subject it to appropriate scrutiny.
Has he, Brian?
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Well now! "New simulation". Do we get know who put the parameters in and what they were. Crap in crap out. And......will this "new simulation" prove beyond ANY doubt whatsoever that it was the fault of the pilots? How can they - they have been trying for years.
What the hell does Hoon know about these things anyway. He is being led by a ring in his nose, and will do what he is bl@@dy told!
What the hell does Hoon know about these things anyway. He is being led by a ring in his nose, and will do what he is bl@@dy told!
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as everyone involved in the campaign undoubtedly realises, it has nothing to do simulations, partiality of those involved and governmental cowardice, yet all play their own part.
simplistically, for my own benefit, it all rests on a point of law; whether the absolutely no doubt whatsoever criterion was satisfied in accordance with established legal precedent. The H of L law lords decided that it was not. and the problem in accepting this is ... ?
question is whether the MoD have the balls to come back and say that the ruling of those of the highest echelons of the judiciary is pants, and that a couple of (albeit high ranking) muppets know best. dont fancy their chances much i must say.
any constitutional experts out there to detail what could happen if the govt refuse to accept their lordships decision?
well done brian, chocks and all those continuously lobbying their MP's. my chap is on the list too.
simplistically, for my own benefit, it all rests on a point of law; whether the absolutely no doubt whatsoever criterion was satisfied in accordance with established legal precedent. The H of L law lords decided that it was not. and the problem in accepting this is ... ?
question is whether the MoD have the balls to come back and say that the ruling of those of the highest echelons of the judiciary is pants, and that a couple of (albeit high ranking) muppets know best. dont fancy their chances much i must say.
any constitutional experts out there to detail what could happen if the govt refuse to accept their lordships decision?
well done brian, chocks and all those continuously lobbying their MP's. my chap is on the list too.
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He hasn't yet, BEags. But then again, he hasn't formally announced the refusal to overturn the verdict yet. His reply to Mr Davis makes it a little difficult for him not to, I think.
IFR - Hopefully the simulation information will be made public (as per BEag's post). Rest assured, the campaign will push for the information to be released.
Uncle Peter - Many thanks for your comments and support. Funnily enough, Lord Hooson, of the Select Committee, lists Law, Defence and Constitutional Affairs under his 'special interests'. I'm sure he will be particularly interested.
It would appear that the MoD is now pinning it's entire argument on a mathmatical model (which is neither an accident investigation tool, nor a finding of difinitive proof).
We shall find out sometime next week I suppose.
Regards all
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
IFR - Hopefully the simulation information will be made public (as per BEag's post). Rest assured, the campaign will push for the information to be released.
Uncle Peter - Many thanks for your comments and support. Funnily enough, Lord Hooson, of the Select Committee, lists Law, Defence and Constitutional Affairs under his 'special interests'. I'm sure he will be particularly interested.
It would appear that the MoD is now pinning it's entire argument on a mathmatical model (which is neither an accident investigation tool, nor a finding of difinitive proof).
We shall find out sometime next week I suppose.
Regards all
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Last edited by Brian Dixon; 14th Jul 2002 at 17:21.
I feel another e-mail to my MP coming on - reminding him of Buff's promise and asking him to confirm that Buff has indeed made the simulation model available for comprehensive independent analysis.
Perhaps that's why he seems intent on giving you the duration of the Summer Recess to analyse all the data...........or am I being rather porcovolant?
Perhaps that's why he seems intent on giving you the duration of the Summer Recess to analyse all the data...........or am I being rather porcovolant?
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145 names on the EDM now, thanks to Betty Williams (LAB) who signed on Friday. 22% of ALL MP's have now signed, more if you discount the 100 or so who can't sign.
The party breakdown is currently:
31/164 (22%) Con
70/410 (17%) Lab
27/53 (51%) Lib Dem
5/5 (100%) DUP
1/1 (100%) Independent
4/4 (100%) Plaid Cymru
3/5 (60%) SNP
4/6 (66%) Ulster Unionist
So, 70 MP's from the Government have come out against them! Backbench revolt anyone?
Fantastic work, thanks again to everyone who has helped so far - keep at 'em, they'll get the message eventually!
The party breakdown is currently:
31/164 (22%) Con
70/410 (17%) Lab
27/53 (51%) Lib Dem
5/5 (100%) DUP
1/1 (100%) Independent
4/4 (100%) Plaid Cymru
3/5 (60%) SNP
4/6 (66%) Ulster Unionist
So, 70 MP's from the Government have come out against them! Backbench revolt anyone?
Fantastic work, thanks again to everyone who has helped so far - keep at 'em, they'll get the message eventually!
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Took a chance and went to the House of Commons in an attempt to lobby Mr Hoon. Unfortunately, he is out of the country at the moment so was unable to see me. (When's he coming back to make the announcement then??)
"Never mind" I said, "I'll speak to his junior minister Mr Ingram if he's available please." I waited for three and a half hours before having to leave for other matters. No word from Mr Ingram (but I did have time to read the whole of the Lords Select Committee Report - again).
I did, however, see and speak to Mr Mark Oaten, MP for Winchester to thank him for his support. I told him the EDM total was 145 (it's now 146 - thank you Mr Wood), and Mr Oaten commented that this was an outstanding total - So well done to everyone for making it possible.
I accept it was a hit and miss opportunity, but I don't think it was a wasted day as it gave the campaign the opportunity to thank a minister who has made the effort.
Ho Hum .......... back to the e-mail and letters!
Regards as always,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
"Never mind" I said, "I'll speak to his junior minister Mr Ingram if he's available please." I waited for three and a half hours before having to leave for other matters. No word from Mr Ingram (but I did have time to read the whole of the Lords Select Committee Report - again).
I did, however, see and speak to Mr Mark Oaten, MP for Winchester to thank him for his support. I told him the EDM total was 145 (it's now 146 - thank you Mr Wood), and Mr Oaten commented that this was an outstanding total - So well done to everyone for making it possible.
I accept it was a hit and miss opportunity, but I don't think it was a wasted day as it gave the campaign the opportunity to thank a minister who has made the effort.
Ho Hum .......... back to the e-mail and letters!
Regards as always,
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Last edited by Brian Dixon; 16th Jul 2002 at 20:11.
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Hi everyone.
If you are planning to go to this year's Farnborough Airshow, you may like to call in at the Boeing stand to ask if they will be happy to hear that the Government may soon be announcing that the second Chinook simulation, produced by their company, will prove with absolutely no doubt whatsoever Flt Lts Jon Tapper and Rick Cook were negligent.
Personally, I don't think they will be too chuffed. Especially if they feel that the Government could so easily then come out with the defence "Oh, well Boeing told us..........."
Not, of course, I'm suggesting that is what will happen.
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
If you are planning to go to this year's Farnborough Airshow, you may like to call in at the Boeing stand to ask if they will be happy to hear that the Government may soon be announcing that the second Chinook simulation, produced by their company, will prove with absolutely no doubt whatsoever Flt Lts Jon Tapper and Rick Cook were negligent.
Personally, I don't think they will be too chuffed. Especially if they feel that the Government could so easily then come out with the defence "Oh, well Boeing told us..........."
Not, of course, I'm suggesting that is what will happen.
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
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This arrived today, forwarded by David Cameron, MP for Witney (covers Brize Norton).
Dear David
Thank you for your letter of 3 July to Geoff Hoon on behalf of your constituents, who have sent e-mails about the Chinook accident on the Mull of Kintyre in June 1994. I am replying as this falls within my area of responsibility as Minister of State for the Armed Forces.
Your constituents refer to Early Day Motion 829, which was initially lodged by six members on 7 February, very shortly after the House of Lords Select Committee Report on Chinook ZD576 was published. The motion notes the conclusion of the Report (that the "Air Marshals" (the reviewing officers of the RAF Board of Inquiry into the accident) were not justified in finding that negligence on the part of the pilots caused this crash), and calls on the Government to quash the finding.
The Select Committee Report is very detailed, and a number of the opinions expressed in it required further work to be undertaken, particularly with regard to the original flight modelling conducted by Boeing, the aircraft manufacturer. Invevitably such work takes time, but it is important that the best possible advice is obtained to inform our full and detailed response to the House of Lords.
You may be aware that Lord Bach, Minister for Defence Procurement, has recently reaffirmed that the Government intends to respond to the Report before the Summer Recess, and that a statement will be made to both Houses of Parliament. (Official Report 19 June 2002, Column 837). I hope that you will agree that it would be inappropriate for me to comment further until our formal response to the Report is to hand.
Yours Aye
The Rt. Hon Adam Ingram JP MP
Dear David
Thank you for your letter of 3 July to Geoff Hoon on behalf of your constituents, who have sent e-mails about the Chinook accident on the Mull of Kintyre in June 1994. I am replying as this falls within my area of responsibility as Minister of State for the Armed Forces.
Your constituents refer to Early Day Motion 829, which was initially lodged by six members on 7 February, very shortly after the House of Lords Select Committee Report on Chinook ZD576 was published. The motion notes the conclusion of the Report (that the "Air Marshals" (the reviewing officers of the RAF Board of Inquiry into the accident) were not justified in finding that negligence on the part of the pilots caused this crash), and calls on the Government to quash the finding.
The Select Committee Report is very detailed, and a number of the opinions expressed in it required further work to be undertaken, particularly with regard to the original flight modelling conducted by Boeing, the aircraft manufacturer. Invevitably such work takes time, but it is important that the best possible advice is obtained to inform our full and detailed response to the House of Lords.
You may be aware that Lord Bach, Minister for Defence Procurement, has recently reaffirmed that the Government intends to respond to the Report before the Summer Recess, and that a statement will be made to both Houses of Parliament. (Official Report 19 June 2002, Column 837). I hope that you will agree that it would be inappropriate for me to comment further until our formal response to the Report is to hand.
Yours Aye
The Rt. Hon Adam Ingram JP MP
EDM829 now stands at 149 signatures....
I have also received a copy of the same letter from Ingram as has The Mistress. This has catalysed a further response to David Cameron reminding him of the statements made by Hoon (as recorded in Hansard) regarding the availability of the second simulation for independent analysis and requesting clarification as to whether this information has, in fact, been made so available.
Regarding F'boro - if you make a fuss at the stand, a cheesy PR suit will smile at you and ease you firmly away. Try getting into their chalet and you won't get past the charming PR ladies on the front desk unless you know someone who will come out to meet you. I don't think that F'boro would be the best place to raise visibility of the case - unfortunately.
I have also received a copy of the same letter from Ingram as has The Mistress. This has catalysed a further response to David Cameron reminding him of the statements made by Hoon (as recorded in Hansard) regarding the availability of the second simulation for independent analysis and requesting clarification as to whether this information has, in fact, been made so available.
Regarding F'boro - if you make a fuss at the stand, a cheesy PR suit will smile at you and ease you firmly away. Try getting into their chalet and you won't get past the charming PR ladies on the front desk unless you know someone who will come out to meet you. I don't think that F'boro would be the best place to raise visibility of the case - unfortunately.
Last edited by BEagle; 17th Jul 2002 at 21:06.
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152 signatures and still counting. Had to gently prod my man, but his signature is there now.
Brian - congratulations! A fine effort. Still working on network contacts to drum up more support.
Recent correspondance with my MP's office:
'Mr Djanogly has asked me to respond to your recent e-mail and to let you know that he has now signed EDM 829.
Yours sincerely
Olivia Kybett
Parliamentary Assistant to Jonathan Djanogly MP'
My reply:
'Dear Olivia,
Please thank Mr Djanogly for his kinds support. It means a great deal to serving and retired aircrew to have the names of these 2 dedicated men restored, and their families free to remember them, with honour, for the rest of their lives.'
FJJP
Brian - congratulations! A fine effort. Still working on network contacts to drum up more support.
Recent correspondance with my MP's office:
'Mr Djanogly has asked me to respond to your recent e-mail and to let you know that he has now signed EDM 829.
Yours sincerely
Olivia Kybett
Parliamentary Assistant to Jonathan Djanogly MP'
My reply:
'Dear Olivia,
Please thank Mr Djanogly for his kinds support. It means a great deal to serving and retired aircrew to have the names of these 2 dedicated men restored, and their families free to remember them, with honour, for the rest of their lives.'
FJJP
Last edited by FJJP; 18th Jul 2002 at 20:52.
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Hoon's response - Monday(22/7)?
From the BBC(19/7)
"Campaigners for two pilots blamed for the 1994 Chinook helicopter crash have promised to fight on if defence officials refuse to exonerate them. They have been waiting for a response from Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon to a House of Lords select committee report into the accident on the Mull of Kintyre.
The crash killed 29 people - many of them senior Northern Ireland intelligence experts. Senior peers decided that it was "not justified" to blame the pilots for the accident.
........................................
Mr Hoon has confirmed to BBC Scotland that he will make a statement on the issue to the Commons on Monday.
However, there is mounting speculation that he will refuse to overturn the findings of the Royal Air Force marshals who investigated the crash in 1996. Computer Weekly magazine has reported that ministers will say there are no new grounds for reconvening the RAF Board of Inquiry or setting aside the verdicts.
Lord Chalfont is one of those who has championed the cause of the pilots. He told BBC Scotland: "If the Ministry of Defence (MoD) do decide to ignore the House of Lords select committee and refuse to remove the verdict of gross negligence from the record it really will be a most extraordinary development.
"What they will be doing is preferring the conclusions of two air force officers over the conclusions of a House of Lords select committee presided over by a distinguished judge.
"It does seem to me to be the air staff in the Ministry of Defence making themselves look extremely foolish, apart from anything else."
...................................................
Lord Chalfont stressed that it would not be the end of the road if the MoD refused to overturn the verdicts. He said there would be a debate on the issue in House of Lords after the summer recess.
"There are a lot of questions that still need to be asked about what lies behind all this," added Lord Chalfont.
"Why is it that the MoD are year after year being so obstinate about this and refusing even to reopen the inquiry to see if they can find out what the truth of the matter is?"
The MoD has refused to comment."
"Campaigners for two pilots blamed for the 1994 Chinook helicopter crash have promised to fight on if defence officials refuse to exonerate them. They have been waiting for a response from Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon to a House of Lords select committee report into the accident on the Mull of Kintyre.
The crash killed 29 people - many of them senior Northern Ireland intelligence experts. Senior peers decided that it was "not justified" to blame the pilots for the accident.
........................................
Mr Hoon has confirmed to BBC Scotland that he will make a statement on the issue to the Commons on Monday.
However, there is mounting speculation that he will refuse to overturn the findings of the Royal Air Force marshals who investigated the crash in 1996. Computer Weekly magazine has reported that ministers will say there are no new grounds for reconvening the RAF Board of Inquiry or setting aside the verdicts.
Lord Chalfont is one of those who has championed the cause of the pilots. He told BBC Scotland: "If the Ministry of Defence (MoD) do decide to ignore the House of Lords select committee and refuse to remove the verdict of gross negligence from the record it really will be a most extraordinary development.
"What they will be doing is preferring the conclusions of two air force officers over the conclusions of a House of Lords select committee presided over by a distinguished judge.
"It does seem to me to be the air staff in the Ministry of Defence making themselves look extremely foolish, apart from anything else."
...................................................
Lord Chalfont stressed that it would not be the end of the road if the MoD refused to overturn the verdicts. He said there would be a debate on the issue in House of Lords after the summer recess.
"There are a lot of questions that still need to be asked about what lies behind all this," added Lord Chalfont.
"Why is it that the MoD are year after year being so obstinate about this and refusing even to reopen the inquiry to see if they can find out what the truth of the matter is?"
The MoD has refused to comment."
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So it's true then - the MoD is not answerable to the Law or to Parliament.
The bad news will be delivered on Monday 22 July at 15.00 hrs by Minister Hoon. How they can continue to support such a cowardly and dishonourable position is completely beyond me.
Enjoy the Summer Mr Hoon. Guess who will be waiting to welcome you back!
Check out the latest article from Tony Collins of Computer Weekly:
http://www.cw360.com/bin/bladerunner...9&CARTI=114258
Great stuff FJJP. Many thanks for all your hard work.
EDM now stands at 155 signatures.
I'll let you all know the summer strategy after Monday's disgraceful announcement.
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
The bad news will be delivered on Monday 22 July at 15.00 hrs by Minister Hoon. How they can continue to support such a cowardly and dishonourable position is completely beyond me.
Enjoy the Summer Mr Hoon. Guess who will be waiting to welcome you back!
Check out the latest article from Tony Collins of Computer Weekly:
http://www.cw360.com/bin/bladerunner...9&CARTI=114258
Great stuff FJJP. Many thanks for all your hard work.
EDM now stands at 155 signatures.
I'll let you all know the summer strategy after Monday's disgraceful announcement.
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Last edited by Brian Dixon; 19th Jul 2002 at 18:33.
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Disgraceful. Sadly much as we feared.
It will be small satisfaction that Hoon will be facing the wrath of MPs from all sides on Monday. Not even his slippery skills will be able to stop him from looking like the spineless and foolish chump he is.
It will be small satisfaction that Hoon will be facing the wrath of MPs from all sides on Monday. Not even his slippery skills will be able to stop him from looking like the spineless and foolish chump he is.
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If the reported response of The MoD is as feared then it is surely unbelievable that a Buffhoon and 2 Brass-bound blimps can defy logic AND the House of Lords, and the inquiries which could not find the crew guilty.
Let us all hope that sanity will eventually prevail.
Let us all hope that sanity will eventually prevail.