Chinook - Still Hitting Back 3 (Merged)
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Brian, Would it be possible, or proper, for you to post the list of MP's, together with their constituencies, who have already signed. I am sure there are many of us out here who will chase their MP's if they are dragging their heels. I have just moved house and not yet sure of my new MP's allegencies.
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yetti You can check whether an MP has signed on the Parliamentary website. This link will take you straight to the relevant motion.
The campaign website has all the info about the EDM, but unfortunately the site is currently unavailable. Hope to have it back up soon.
The campaign website has all the info about the EDM, but unfortunately the site is currently unavailable. Hope to have it back up soon.
Last edited by Chocks Wahay; 8th Jul 2002 at 12:15.
I have been ‘dipping in/out’ of PPRuNe for a couple of months now but when I came across this topic, I knew I had to join, even if it was just to register for the petition.
First an apology, I have read ALL the posts but I have not been able to access all the links posted, so if I am about to go over old ground that has been well covered – sorry! I appreciate that this is nothing other than speculation, conjecture and assumption but it is no more than that applied by 'Wratten and Day' when they chose to overrule the BoI findings.
I have to agree with a statement made by Canberra a while back now, that ‘one of the most important factors’ was the fact that the first 2 digits on the Transponder were 77. However, there does not seem to be an explanation posted as to why that should be the case and I wonder if it has been mentioned anywhere. If not, here is my take on this.
As an ex-Mil ATC, I would have expected 7000 (conspicuity code) to be set unless they changed for a specific reason. There are not many options as to why they would change the setting but here are my thoughts. Fast Jet jocks use 7001 when climbing out from low level but I would not think that a rotary would use this option. Alternatively, the change could have been in response to an ATC instruction to set a specific SSR Code – I believe this could not have been the case as they were not in contact with ATC. So what does that leave us with?
Bearing in mind the state of the Mk2s at that time, and the warning to expect an engine failure at any moment, it is not stretching the imagination to think that some form of mechanical failure was encountered. If this was the case, then CRM and Emergency Training would ‘kick-in’ and whilst trying to fight the problem, one of the 2 pilots would attempt to call ATC and apply the emergency SSR code of 7700. Tragically, events overtook them and either the task was not completed or the aircraft position was such that it was outside the Triangulation System Net coverage and not picked up. IMHO this would seem to be the most likely reason for the Transponder setting of 77**.
So, to quote their airships, ‘on balance’ it must be considered that mechanical failure COULD have been a causal part of the accident. Consequently, there IS doubt as to what might have happened SO they cannot stick blindly to their decision to tarnish the reputation of the crew. So the sooner, that either ‘Blur’ or ‘Who’, get up on their hind-legs in Westminster and say so the better.
Sorry for the long post but I felt it needed saying – if I have just taken up your time 'stating the bl**ding obvious' on something I missed in some other forum, then my apologies!!
Right, I will use the stepladders to get down off my soapbox, and I will shoot off to add my name to the petition and check that my MP (Chidgey of Eastleigh) has signed the EDM.
First an apology, I have read ALL the posts but I have not been able to access all the links posted, so if I am about to go over old ground that has been well covered – sorry! I appreciate that this is nothing other than speculation, conjecture and assumption but it is no more than that applied by 'Wratten and Day' when they chose to overrule the BoI findings.
I have to agree with a statement made by Canberra a while back now, that ‘one of the most important factors’ was the fact that the first 2 digits on the Transponder were 77. However, there does not seem to be an explanation posted as to why that should be the case and I wonder if it has been mentioned anywhere. If not, here is my take on this.
As an ex-Mil ATC, I would have expected 7000 (conspicuity code) to be set unless they changed for a specific reason. There are not many options as to why they would change the setting but here are my thoughts. Fast Jet jocks use 7001 when climbing out from low level but I would not think that a rotary would use this option. Alternatively, the change could have been in response to an ATC instruction to set a specific SSR Code – I believe this could not have been the case as they were not in contact with ATC. So what does that leave us with?
Bearing in mind the state of the Mk2s at that time, and the warning to expect an engine failure at any moment, it is not stretching the imagination to think that some form of mechanical failure was encountered. If this was the case, then CRM and Emergency Training would ‘kick-in’ and whilst trying to fight the problem, one of the 2 pilots would attempt to call ATC and apply the emergency SSR code of 7700. Tragically, events overtook them and either the task was not completed or the aircraft position was such that it was outside the Triangulation System Net coverage and not picked up. IMHO this would seem to be the most likely reason for the Transponder setting of 77**.
So, to quote their airships, ‘on balance’ it must be considered that mechanical failure COULD have been a causal part of the accident. Consequently, there IS doubt as to what might have happened SO they cannot stick blindly to their decision to tarnish the reputation of the crew. So the sooner, that either ‘Blur’ or ‘Who’, get up on their hind-legs in Westminster and say so the better.
Sorry for the long post but I felt it needed saying – if I have just taken up your time 'stating the bl**ding obvious' on something I missed in some other forum, then my apologies!!
Right, I will use the stepladders to get down off my soapbox, and I will shoot off to add my name to the petition and check that my MP (Chidgey of Eastleigh) has signed the EDM.
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S&S - Chidgey hasn't ... yet. I faxed him over the weekend asking him too - watch this space, but he may be swayed by another letter/fax from you!
Did it through www.faxyourmp.com
Did it through www.faxyourmp.com
Just a numbered other
Oh dear!
As predicted, my MP's toys are now strewn around his cot. 'Have you nothing better to do with your time than check to see which EDMs I have signed' etc.
Now, with that bridge gone the way of the one over the Kwai, I'll send my next letter to Hoon (if needed) via IDS, and ex[plain why.
As predicted, my MP's toys are now strewn around his cot. 'Have you nothing better to do with your time than check to see which EDMs I have signed' etc.
Now, with that bridge gone the way of the one over the Kwai, I'll send my next letter to Hoon (if needed) via IDS, and ex[plain why.
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'Have you nothing better to do with your time than check to see which EDMs I have signed'
Ark Royal,
If your MP is of the less common blue variety, do e-mail IDS. I did and got an immediate response. I got an almost immediate (couple of hours) response from my MP too so the system seems to work.
If your MP is of the less common blue variety, do e-mail IDS. I did and got an immediate response. I got an almost immediate (couple of hours) response from my MP too so the system seems to work.
Ark,
You're a constituent in Blaby, are you not? If so your MP is a Lesser-Spotted Blue Representatitve, and you should definitely mail IDS.
After all, did your MP not state that he didn't sign EDMs, since they weren't worthwhile?
You discovered that he does sign EDMs. Therefore, your MP lied to you. Let's not beat about the bush - he lied. Fibbed. Told Porkie Pies, etc, etc.
Now, bearing in mind that IDS's mob were thrown out on their ear in 1997 partly because they had a reputation for being a bunch of lying gits, I'm sure that IDS would be interested to learn that:
a) One of his flock hasn't learned the lesson.
b) That said MP not only lied but sent teddy on an out-of-cot excursion in his reply
c) That said MP's behaviour is more widely known than said MP thinks it is, with an adverse effect on the image of the party. If an MP is prepared to lie to a constituent on the relatively trivial matter of whether or not he signs EDMs how can he be trusted at all?
You ought to name and shame the chap!
You're a constituent in Blaby, are you not? If so your MP is a Lesser-Spotted Blue Representatitve, and you should definitely mail IDS.
After all, did your MP not state that he didn't sign EDMs, since they weren't worthwhile?
You discovered that he does sign EDMs. Therefore, your MP lied to you. Let's not beat about the bush - he lied. Fibbed. Told Porkie Pies, etc, etc.
Now, bearing in mind that IDS's mob were thrown out on their ear in 1997 partly because they had a reputation for being a bunch of lying gits, I'm sure that IDS would be interested to learn that:
a) One of his flock hasn't learned the lesson.
b) That said MP not only lied but sent teddy on an out-of-cot excursion in his reply
c) That said MP's behaviour is more widely known than said MP thinks it is, with an adverse effect on the image of the party. If an MP is prepared to lie to a constituent on the relatively trivial matter of whether or not he signs EDMs how can he be trusted at all?
You ought to name and shame the chap!
Just a numbered other
Thanks everyone.
Yes Arch, he is the Conservative member for Blaby, one Andrew Robathan MP.
We have exchanged letters on this subject for a couple of years now, and although he claims to share many of my views, will not lift a finger to help the campaign. Perhaps the fact that, as an ex pongo, he lost a pal on the flight, colours his feelings.
'You may be interested to know that I spend every day refusing to sign EDMs, but sometimes I am caught off-guard, usually by a colleague - as in, for instance, the National Anthem one.'
I too feel, especially as I and my mrs voted for him, that he is my servant and not vice-versa. Not sure I want an MP who has been caught 'off-guard' 26 times this year! He'll be a couple of votes short next time anyway.
Suffice so far to have rattled his cage. Hopefully, the next few days will put a favourable end to this long running disgracegul farago. If not, I will seek the support of the Organ Grinder, and leave his monkey to chew on his nuts.
Yes Arch, he is the Conservative member for Blaby, one Andrew Robathan MP.
We have exchanged letters on this subject for a couple of years now, and although he claims to share many of my views, will not lift a finger to help the campaign. Perhaps the fact that, as an ex pongo, he lost a pal on the flight, colours his feelings.
'You may be interested to know that I spend every day refusing to sign EDMs, but sometimes I am caught off-guard, usually by a colleague - as in, for instance, the National Anthem one.'
I too feel, especially as I and my mrs voted for him, that he is my servant and not vice-versa. Not sure I want an MP who has been caught 'off-guard' 26 times this year! He'll be a couple of votes short next time anyway.
Suffice so far to have rattled his cage. Hopefully, the next few days will put a favourable end to this long running disgracegul farago. If not, I will seek the support of the Organ Grinder, and leave his monkey to chew on his nuts.
Last edited by Arkroyal; 11th Jul 2002 at 16:17.
Must be really off-guard to sign something on Bear Farming ...... 
You'd have thought that having lost a chum on the flight would have made him want to find out the truth rather than simply go along with a verdict that doesn't provide all the answers.
You'd have thought that having lost a chum on the flight would have made him want to find out the truth rather than simply go along with a verdict that doesn't provide all the answers.
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Archimedes the campaign already has the public support of a number of the widows of the passengers on ZD576 (I sat next to one of them at the House of Lords last year, and she has previously posted here), so having lost a pal himself should surely make him want to see justice done.
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A really irritating PPRuNer
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Hi folks,
firstly, welcome to Short& Shapeless and thanks for your support.
Ark,
I haven't laughed so much in ages! The mental image of Mr R turning purple at yet another letter from your good self, and then probably ripping it into shreds before composing his reply to you was priceless!
Milhampost,
many thanks for the link. Mr R has just been introduced to the Irritating Sod
. I've told him I have got better things to do than check which EDMs have been signed, but I like to contact those who haven't signed the one I'm interested in!
I also asked him had there been a National Anthem singing bear on board the helicopter, would he have signed the EDM. Probably hasn't helped, but he may be more receptive to Ark in future!
Great news on the EDM signature total. Well done and thank you all.
Lets keep the momentum and pressure up.
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
firstly, welcome to Short& Shapeless and thanks for your support.
Ark,
I haven't laughed so much in ages! The mental image of Mr R turning purple at yet another letter from your good self, and then probably ripping it into shreds before composing his reply to you was priceless!
Milhampost,
many thanks for the link. Mr R has just been introduced to the Irritating Sod
. I've told him I have got better things to do than check which EDMs have been signed, but I like to contact those who haven't signed the one I'm interested in! I also asked him had there been a National Anthem singing bear on board the helicopter, would he have signed the EDM. Probably hasn't helped, but he may be more receptive to Ark in future!
Great news on the EDM signature total. Well done and thank you all.
Lets keep the momentum and pressure up.
Regards, as always
Brian
"Justice has no expiry date" - John Cook
Just a numbered other
Archimedes, Chocks and Brian.
I have used the argument that the bereaved are not best served by this outrage, but would be better for a pursuit of the truth, with our friend already. I too met Mrs P at the HoL last January, and she is worth a hundred second rate tory MPs.
As Mr R lives nearby, I'm watching the driveway nervously as I type.
Please let's not let this sideshow detract from the gravity of the main thrust, amusing though it is.
I have used the argument that the bereaved are not best served by this outrage, but would be better for a pursuit of the truth, with our friend already. I too met Mrs P at the HoL last January, and she is worth a hundred second rate tory MPs.
As Mr R lives nearby, I'm watching the driveway nervously as I type.
Please let's not let this sideshow detract from the gravity of the main thrust, amusing though it is.