Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Guest
Posts: n/a
Brian 48nav,
Your: "Danny - I am amazed at the detail, particularly ATC equipment, that you can recall! When I retired I seemed to dump all that when I handed in my headset and ATC manuals at LHR".
All too soon I must disappoint you ! (see the way in which I've "chickened out" in my next - let copy 'n paste do the job for me) .....D.
Ian BB,
Tried Google with "Gujrat", says: "Did you mean Gujarat ?" But then it turns out that they are two different places, miles apart (this it seems, is now "disambiguation" - Come again ?).
Thought my knowledge of the subcontinent was pretty extensive, appears I have a lot to learn still (and that solves the problem of why they were going to "Gujarat" - they weren't !). Basal was a new one on me: looks to be not far from Peshawar (the VV OTU was there in my day, but never visited).....D.
Ormeside,
You seem to have had a life packed with excitement and adventure ! (but that's what we all signed up for, I suppose). Keep the stories coming, please !
All we old Sgt-Pilots achieved elevation to the Upper House in different ways. I got my Commission because my Boss was in a huff over the way the Wild Colonial Boys were being commissioned "over his head", and he reacted with: "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". No OCTU for me, it just "came up with the rations".
"You are here to get your posting?" "No I am going to Calshot" "Oh no you are not. Calshot has closed" ! Hasn't this happened to every single one of us in our time ! ......D.
Cheers, all. Danny
Your: "Danny - I am amazed at the detail, particularly ATC equipment, that you can recall! When I retired I seemed to dump all that when I handed in my headset and ATC manuals at LHR".
All too soon I must disappoint you ! (see the way in which I've "chickened out" in my next - let copy 'n paste do the job for me) .....D.
Ian BB,
Tried Google with "Gujrat", says: "Did you mean Gujarat ?" But then it turns out that they are two different places, miles apart (this it seems, is now "disambiguation" - Come again ?).
Thought my knowledge of the subcontinent was pretty extensive, appears I have a lot to learn still (and that solves the problem of why they were going to "Gujarat" - they weren't !). Basal was a new one on me: looks to be not far from Peshawar (the VV OTU was there in my day, but never visited).....D.
Ormeside,
You seem to have had a life packed with excitement and adventure ! (but that's what we all signed up for, I suppose). Keep the stories coming, please !
All we old Sgt-Pilots achieved elevation to the Upper House in different ways. I got my Commission because my Boss was in a huff over the way the Wild Colonial Boys were being commissioned "over his head", and he reacted with: "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". No OCTU for me, it just "came up with the rations".
"You are here to get your posting?" "No I am going to Calshot" "Oh no you are not. Calshot has closed" ! Hasn't this happened to every single one of us in our time ! ......D.
Cheers, all. Danny
Ormeside28
Re your sojourn in Topcliffe and later involvement with Neptunes you may like to see this photo I took at Biggin Hill during the 1954 Royal Observer Corps "Recognition Day". It shows RAF Neptune MR1 WX547 from the Fighter Command Vanguard Flight (1453 Flight) based at Topcliffe in Yorkshire.
Vanguard Flight Neptunes carried out some of the initial Airborne Early Warning Radar trials over the North Sea, but according to Google they were not a success (see quote below).
Re your sojourn in Topcliffe and later involvement with Neptunes you may like to see this photo I took at Biggin Hill during the 1954 Royal Observer Corps "Recognition Day". It shows RAF Neptune MR1 WX547 from the Fighter Command Vanguard Flight (1453 Flight) based at Topcliffe in Yorkshire.
Vanguard Flight Neptunes carried out some of the initial Airborne Early Warning Radar trials over the North Sea, but according to Google they were not a success (see quote below).
By the 1950's, the Royal Navy and RAF had started the development of AEW systems. The Royal Navy ordered the development of an AEW Fairey Gannet, whilst using the AN/APS 20 radar equipped Douglas Skyraider from the US as a stopgap, and the RAF set up the "Vanguard Flight", also known as 1453 Flight, equipped with Lockheed P2V-5 Neptune's. They were not a success, and the flight was disbanded after 3 years. Therefore, the only operational AEW systems in use by the British armed forces up until 1970 were operated by the Royal Navy.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Danny continues his story from #5902 p.296 (roll on 6,000).
For a description of the AR-1, I cannot do better than put in the following (filched) text (bold type mine) from:
"THE DECCA LEGACY"
"Air Traffic Radars"
"6.6. AR – 1 AIRFIELD APPROACH RADAR"
"In 1959, the MOD was already conducting trials of a radar system against their own performance requirement specification and they were not content with the results. The Decca Radar Company was given 10 months to produce a competitive radar system; a product that was to become known as the AR-1 achieved this.
The AR1 was configured by bringing together elements of existing radars. The antenna and turning gear design was taken from the AWS-1. A variant of the ‘LOTUS’ Transmitter/Receiver would be produced to power the system with a peak power of 650 KW. operating at S-band, with a 1.0 microsecond pulse length and a prf of 700 pps .
The standard system was configured with two transmitters operating in frequency diversity (alternatively, in a single transmitter configuration). The receiver utilised a travelling wave tube RF amplifier from English Electric".
"The double curvature antenna was designed (cosec2 pattern) to give coverage out to 70+nm with a maximum height of 40,000 ft, (using a calibration aircraft such as the Canberra or commercial airliner of equivalent radar surface area). The antenna rotation rate was 15 rpm and circular-polarisation, at S-band, was introduced for the first time. The AR-1 was designed to meet both military and civil airfield approach control requirements with many different display configurations, utilising the new Mk.5 Fixed Coil Display".
"The AR- 1 radar became an international success with sales reaching 108 systems, of which 32 were to the U.K. MOD for use on RAF and Royal Naval stations in the UK and overseas. Much of this success can be attributed to the introduction of the transistorised Moving Target Indicator system - a world wide first into production. Details of both MTI and Display technology employed on the AR-1 are given in Chapters 14 and 12 respectively".
************************************************************ *****************
The enormous height and range (almost double what we had previously) swept by the huge radar lobe transformed life for the operator: he could "see" high level QGHs approaching the overhead (although there was always the "dark area", as in the old D/F "cones of silence"), outbound, turning and inbound, and warn Approach of (apparently) conflicting traffic. Cases like my Ahmed at Strubby ten years before were now impossible, for you could see what he was up to most of the time.
But remember, "the operator" in this case means "Talkdown" (who was his own "Director"): he could only help "Approach" (sitting next to him), when the former was not doing a PAR, or otherwise engaged. At other times Approach was on his own with just the CA/DF as before.
In fact, Radar had everything that an operator could possibly want (except a height-finder), and that would not be of much use when you are dealing with multiple targets which might be hopping up and down. They were fine when you needed only to find the height of the next wave of Heinkel 111s coming over the Channel (say), but in Area Radar the only answer is the radio Transponder (in universal use today) - but we had nothing like that.
And now both operating "heads" were far away from the Tower, over on the other side of the airfield. AR-1 was the usual large radar array on top of a high lattice tower, PAR was a separate structure on a turntable, so that it could be rotated to "look" up the line of approach to either 16 or 34 (control for selection was in the Tower). Of course, your radar mechs spent their time, and had their workshop, over there, and would only come across to you if the displays were giving trouble.
Radar Heaven ? Well no, not quite. The enormous depth of the radar lobe meant that it was showing everything in the skies. You could have two "blips" seemingly on collision course, but one might be at 5,000 ft and the other at 10,000 - but there was no way of knowing this unless you had identified both and were in radio contact with them.
Lower down, the very effective MTI (Moving Target Indicator) almost completely cancelled ground returns. But then the extremely sensitive radar gave such high definition that it was not unknown to find yourself talking to a bird rather than the aircraft you thought you had under control. If you could "zoom in " far enough, you could probably see bumble bees in your garden. Truth to tell, it was too good a radar for our purposes.
IIRC, you could "zoom" in from the 70 (?) miles of full screen down to 20 (?), with range rings every ten (every 2 at full zoom ?). And there was a wonderful new toy. You could displace the point-of-origin of the time-base (the "sweep") anywhere on the tube. So you could put your "centre spot" on Teeside airport (14 mi), zoom in to 20 mi, put your strobe onto 043 (or whatever), and so give an aircraft a far better PPI talkdown than they could possibly do with their puny ACR-7D.
That'll do for the PAR/AR-1. What else ? Well, Leeming had an ILS on 16, but it wasn't used much (did the JP have ILS - I should know !) And we had a Ghost. And that was about it.
More interesting stuff next time.
Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.
Embarass de Richesse !
"THE DECCA LEGACY"
"Air Traffic Radars"
"6.6. AR – 1 AIRFIELD APPROACH RADAR"
"In 1959, the MOD was already conducting trials of a radar system against their own performance requirement specification and they were not content with the results. The Decca Radar Company was given 10 months to produce a competitive radar system; a product that was to become known as the AR-1 achieved this.
The AR1 was configured by bringing together elements of existing radars. The antenna and turning gear design was taken from the AWS-1. A variant of the ‘LOTUS’ Transmitter/Receiver would be produced to power the system with a peak power of 650 KW. operating at S-band, with a 1.0 microsecond pulse length and a prf of 700 pps .
The standard system was configured with two transmitters operating in frequency diversity (alternatively, in a single transmitter configuration). The receiver utilised a travelling wave tube RF amplifier from English Electric".
"The double curvature antenna was designed (cosec2 pattern) to give coverage out to 70+nm with a maximum height of 40,000 ft, (using a calibration aircraft such as the Canberra or commercial airliner of equivalent radar surface area). The antenna rotation rate was 15 rpm and circular-polarisation, at S-band, was introduced for the first time. The AR-1 was designed to meet both military and civil airfield approach control requirements with many different display configurations, utilising the new Mk.5 Fixed Coil Display".
"The AR- 1 radar became an international success with sales reaching 108 systems, of which 32 were to the U.K. MOD for use on RAF and Royal Naval stations in the UK and overseas. Much of this success can be attributed to the introduction of the transistorised Moving Target Indicator system - a world wide first into production. Details of both MTI and Display technology employed on the AR-1 are given in Chapters 14 and 12 respectively".
************************************************************ *****************
The enormous height and range (almost double what we had previously) swept by the huge radar lobe transformed life for the operator: he could "see" high level QGHs approaching the overhead (although there was always the "dark area", as in the old D/F "cones of silence"), outbound, turning and inbound, and warn Approach of (apparently) conflicting traffic. Cases like my Ahmed at Strubby ten years before were now impossible, for you could see what he was up to most of the time.
But remember, "the operator" in this case means "Talkdown" (who was his own "Director"): he could only help "Approach" (sitting next to him), when the former was not doing a PAR, or otherwise engaged. At other times Approach was on his own with just the CA/DF as before.
In fact, Radar had everything that an operator could possibly want (except a height-finder), and that would not be of much use when you are dealing with multiple targets which might be hopping up and down. They were fine when you needed only to find the height of the next wave of Heinkel 111s coming over the Channel (say), but in Area Radar the only answer is the radio Transponder (in universal use today) - but we had nothing like that.
And now both operating "heads" were far away from the Tower, over on the other side of the airfield. AR-1 was the usual large radar array on top of a high lattice tower, PAR was a separate structure on a turntable, so that it could be rotated to "look" up the line of approach to either 16 or 34 (control for selection was in the Tower). Of course, your radar mechs spent their time, and had their workshop, over there, and would only come across to you if the displays were giving trouble.
Radar Heaven ? Well no, not quite. The enormous depth of the radar lobe meant that it was showing everything in the skies. You could have two "blips" seemingly on collision course, but one might be at 5,000 ft and the other at 10,000 - but there was no way of knowing this unless you had identified both and were in radio contact with them.
Lower down, the very effective MTI (Moving Target Indicator) almost completely cancelled ground returns. But then the extremely sensitive radar gave such high definition that it was not unknown to find yourself talking to a bird rather than the aircraft you thought you had under control. If you could "zoom in " far enough, you could probably see bumble bees in your garden. Truth to tell, it was too good a radar for our purposes.
IIRC, you could "zoom" in from the 70 (?) miles of full screen down to 20 (?), with range rings every ten (every 2 at full zoom ?). And there was a wonderful new toy. You could displace the point-of-origin of the time-base (the "sweep") anywhere on the tube. So you could put your "centre spot" on Teeside airport (14 mi), zoom in to 20 mi, put your strobe onto 043 (or whatever), and so give an aircraft a far better PPI talkdown than they could possibly do with their puny ACR-7D.
That'll do for the PAR/AR-1. What else ? Well, Leeming had an ILS on 16, but it wasn't used much (did the JP have ILS - I should know !) And we had a Ghost. And that was about it.
More interesting stuff next time.
Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.
Embarass de Richesse !
Last edited by Danny42C; 7th Jul 2014 at 17:18. Reason: Spacing.
Geoff goes up the Jungle
F/Sgt Geoff managed to fly out of Palam on 10 days in December 1944, which was quite good going as Delhi is notorious for fog during that month. Several air tests were flown, and 2 Majors, 1 S/LDR, and 1 Captain were safely conveyed to their various destinations by him, in a Proctor or an Argus and he also logs 2 more hours 2nd pilot in the Expediter. No flying was undertaken from 23rd Dec. until 4th Jan. '45.
Summary for Dec. 1944. Expediter 2.00 Proctor 12.45 Argus 16.45
Just an air test on Jan 4th and then, a serious block of flying commences on Jan 6th which occupies him for 19 days.
He flies Argus No. 806 with a S/LDR Bates as his passenger for the entire trip.
Jan 6 Palam – Allahabad 3.15
Jan 7 Allahabad – Gaya – Dum-Dum 4.45
Jan 10 Dum-Dum – Jessore – Comilla 2.15
Jan 12 Comilla – Silchar – Kumbhirgram 2.00
Kumbhirgram – Imphal 1.00
Jan 14 Imphal – Tamu – Indainggale – Kalemyo 1.30
Kalemyo – Indainggale – Tamu – Imphal 1.30
Jan 15 Imphal – Kohima – Manipur Road 1.30
Manipur Road – Kohima – Imphal 1.15
Jan 16 Imphal – Kumbhirgram 1.00
Kumbhirgram – Silchar – Comilla 2.15
Jan 17 Comilla – Fenni – Hathazari 1.00
Hathazari – Chittagong 0.30
Chittagong – Fenni – Comilla 1.30
Jan 18 Comilla – Jessore – Dum-Dum 2.15
Jan 22 Dum-Dum – Bishnupur – Charra 1.45
Charra – Ranchi 1.00
Jan 23 Ranchi – Jharsuguda 1.30
Jharsuguda – Local Flying 1.00
Jan 24 Jharsuguda – Allahabad 4.15
Allahabad – Palam 3.45
So what was that map-reading-marathon all about? Any theories anyone?
No rest for the wicked. Jan 27 he takes a Major Warren up to Peshawar via Lahore in a Proctor (656) and comes back, same day, with no return pax. Jan 28 In Expediter 476 he does 1.30 circuits & bumps with F/LT Archer. Jan 29 an air test in Argus 554. Jan 31 F/LT Archer gives Geoff a 30 minute air test in Expediter 149 and passes him as 1st pilot henceforth on “the Twin Beech” with 9.45 on type. Thus concludes 17 days flying in January.
Summary for Jan. 1945. Expediter 2.00 Argus 42.00 Proctor 8.30
Ian BB
Summary for Dec. 1944. Expediter 2.00 Proctor 12.45 Argus 16.45
Just an air test on Jan 4th and then, a serious block of flying commences on Jan 6th which occupies him for 19 days.
He flies Argus No. 806 with a S/LDR Bates as his passenger for the entire trip.
Jan 6 Palam – Allahabad 3.15
Jan 7 Allahabad – Gaya – Dum-Dum 4.45
Jan 10 Dum-Dum – Jessore – Comilla 2.15
Jan 12 Comilla – Silchar – Kumbhirgram 2.00
Kumbhirgram – Imphal 1.00
Jan 14 Imphal – Tamu – Indainggale – Kalemyo 1.30
Kalemyo – Indainggale – Tamu – Imphal 1.30
Jan 15 Imphal – Kohima – Manipur Road 1.30
Manipur Road – Kohima – Imphal 1.15
Jan 16 Imphal – Kumbhirgram 1.00
Kumbhirgram – Silchar – Comilla 2.15
Jan 17 Comilla – Fenni – Hathazari 1.00
Hathazari – Chittagong 0.30
Chittagong – Fenni – Comilla 1.30
Jan 18 Comilla – Jessore – Dum-Dum 2.15
Jan 22 Dum-Dum – Bishnupur – Charra 1.45
Charra – Ranchi 1.00
Jan 23 Ranchi – Jharsuguda 1.30
Jharsuguda – Local Flying 1.00
Jan 24 Jharsuguda – Allahabad 4.15
Allahabad – Palam 3.45
So what was that map-reading-marathon all about? Any theories anyone?
No rest for the wicked. Jan 27 he takes a Major Warren up to Peshawar via Lahore in a Proctor (656) and comes back, same day, with no return pax. Jan 28 In Expediter 476 he does 1.30 circuits & bumps with F/LT Archer. Jan 29 an air test in Argus 554. Jan 31 F/LT Archer gives Geoff a 30 minute air test in Expediter 149 and passes him as 1st pilot henceforth on “the Twin Beech” with 9.45 on type. Thus concludes 17 days flying in January.
Summary for Jan. 1945. Expediter 2.00 Argus 42.00 Proctor 8.30
Ian BB
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ian BB,
"We're on common ground now !", I first thought. Then I checked dates and got out my log. I was in the party "shanghai'd" on 13 Nov'43 from the three RAF VV squadrons to beef-up the new VV No.8 (IAF) Sqdn, and get it into action.
On 29 I flew my first trip with 8 to Ranchi (no idea why). Presumably we were at Chaara then. On 4 Dec'43 to Digri, 12 Dec to Double Moorings, 17 Dec into action all over Arakan, did my last 19 ops until untimely end on 24 Feb.
So it would seem that we both knew Dum-Dum, Jessore, Chittagong, ("Hathazari" couldn't be "Dohazari" by any chance ?), Khumbirgram (were they still talking about the elephant ?) Chaara *, Ranchi, Palam (Delhi) etc. But never at the same time. Fortunes of War !
What was he doing ? All sorts of people kept coming up from the West all the time, getting in the way, asking stupid questions, and usually departing swiftly when they found how close the Japs really were. Don't remember any Proctors or Argi. Was one character who turned up at K-m with a Tiger Moth (God knows why), loudly complaining that it had taken him a whole week to get there from Mauripur (?)
Captain of a Twin Beech with 9.45 ? He was "jammy" !. I was captain of a VV with 0.20 on type. "Think yourself lucky, mate - that was more than I had", said my Instructor (F/Sgt Reg Duncan, RCAF).
Happy days. Danny.
* I'm sure we spelt it like that ! But Wiki insists "Charra" - but still only knows about the B-29s there. But then the VV was the invisible aircraft as far as the rest of the RAF was concerned...D.
"We're on common ground now !", I first thought. Then I checked dates and got out my log. I was in the party "shanghai'd" on 13 Nov'43 from the three RAF VV squadrons to beef-up the new VV No.8 (IAF) Sqdn, and get it into action.
On 29 I flew my first trip with 8 to Ranchi (no idea why). Presumably we were at Chaara then. On 4 Dec'43 to Digri, 12 Dec to Double Moorings, 17 Dec into action all over Arakan, did my last 19 ops until untimely end on 24 Feb.
So it would seem that we both knew Dum-Dum, Jessore, Chittagong, ("Hathazari" couldn't be "Dohazari" by any chance ?), Khumbirgram (were they still talking about the elephant ?) Chaara *, Ranchi, Palam (Delhi) etc. But never at the same time. Fortunes of War !
What was he doing ? All sorts of people kept coming up from the West all the time, getting in the way, asking stupid questions, and usually departing swiftly when they found how close the Japs really were. Don't remember any Proctors or Argi. Was one character who turned up at K-m with a Tiger Moth (God knows why), loudly complaining that it had taken him a whole week to get there from Mauripur (?)
Captain of a Twin Beech with 9.45 ? He was "jammy" !. I was captain of a VV with 0.20 on type. "Think yourself lucky, mate - that was more than I had", said my Instructor (F/Sgt Reg Duncan, RCAF).
Happy days. Danny.
* I'm sure we spelt it like that ! But Wiki insists "Charra" - but still only knows about the B-29s there. But then the VV was the invisible aircraft as far as the rest of the RAF was concerned...D.
Vengeances
Danny, Chugalug will, I'm sure, well remember a pilot on 30Sqn Hercs', and may have known him on Hastings, one 'Jolly' Jack Huntington.
Jack had flown VVs and Spitfires on the Arakan front - maybe your paths crossed. He was a 'reet' Lancashire lad from a fishing family at Fleetwood, quite short, with a beaked konk and appeared to have no neck. A legend in his own lifetime!
I think he may have converted to transport not long after WWII; the stories about him were many. Apparently he was ordered to attend Jurby to be commissioned sometime in the late 50s and it all turned to worms when the first corporal instructor to chew him off was told in no uncertain terms to 'fook off'.
On another occasion, by now a Flt Lt, he was in the OM bar at South Cerney ( the then domestic site for Fairford ), took umbrage at the juke box playing, went off to his room, came back with a pair of pliers and snipped the wires to the speakers, muttering 'that'll stop that bloody racket'.
As befitted a former NCO pilot a very smartly turned-out officer but still equipped with a sprinkling of industrial language. I think he PVRed aged 50 in 1973 having decided the modern world was not for him!
Jack had flown VVs and Spitfires on the Arakan front - maybe your paths crossed. He was a 'reet' Lancashire lad from a fishing family at Fleetwood, quite short, with a beaked konk and appeared to have no neck. A legend in his own lifetime!
I think he may have converted to transport not long after WWII; the stories about him were many. Apparently he was ordered to attend Jurby to be commissioned sometime in the late 50s and it all turned to worms when the first corporal instructor to chew him off was told in no uncertain terms to 'fook off'.
On another occasion, by now a Flt Lt, he was in the OM bar at South Cerney ( the then domestic site for Fairford ), took umbrage at the juke box playing, went off to his room, came back with a pair of pliers and snipped the wires to the speakers, muttering 'that'll stop that bloody racket'.
As befitted a former NCO pilot a very smartly turned-out officer but still equipped with a sprinkling of industrial language. I think he PVRed aged 50 in 1973 having decided the modern world was not for him!
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike Warren
Project Propeller organiser signing in, first time post.
I fear I must tread carefully here, in case I make assertions that are quite untrue. However, I can comment thus:
I fear I must tread carefully here, in case I make assertions that are quite untrue. However, I can comment thus:
- I too was surprised by the age reference in the BBC clip. At this stage, I thought it was perhaps an editorial error, or perhaps there had been an under-age sign-up.
- During the course of trying to find veterans for Project Propeller, I encountered a lot of people with links to Squadron Associations. In the past few days, I have been in touch with a researcher who has access to the Operational Record Book of 619 Squadron, with whom Mr Warren states that he flew. There is no-one of that name listed in the ORB.
- The badge on the blazer worn by Mr Warren at the event in June was a generic Bomber Command crest, it was not a specific squadron badge.
- I acknowledged every veteran registration for Project Propeller with a telephone call. Sometimes this developed into a lengthy conversation, as it did in this case. The tales of wartime service related by Mr Warren have already been noted above, copied from another forum. The telephone call lasted for nearly an hour; the demeanour shown on the telephone, and that shown on the day were markedly different; a willingness to chat on the phone, a marked unwillingness to do so in person.
Great Expectations
Danny
Captain of a Twin Beech with 9.45 ? He was "jammy" !. I was captain of a VV with 0.20 on type.
You were not, under fire, guaranteed, to come back, whereas Geoff was expected to to deliver his pax, without drama, to their destinations, and then come back for more.
Ian BB
Captain of a Twin Beech with 9.45 ? He was "jammy" !. I was captain of a VV with 0.20 on type.
You were not, under fire, guaranteed, to come back, whereas Geoff was expected to to deliver his pax, without drama, to their destinations, and then come back for more.
Ian BB
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ian BB,
Not as heroic as you paint it, I'm afraid. 110 Sqdn was well back out of trouble in West Bengal when I was "converted" onto the VV.
Even when we got down to business in Arakan, ours were the safest ops imaginable...D.
Brian 48nav,
Doesn't ring a bell, I'm afraid. The Spitfires were well back, I think, it was only Hurricanes with us in Arakan.
Now, if he was in VVs, there were four RAF Sqdns of them, and two IAF. I was on 110 (RAF) in Arakan in pre-monsoon '43, and in Assam post-monsoon, up to November '43, then back in Arakan with 8 (IAF) Jan'44.
As we were only operating on rough "kutcha" strips there, there was only room for one squadron on each (I can only remember being with 82 at Chittagong (hardstandings) for a few weeks early '43, but we didn't socialise at all).
Got out in '72 for same reason as your Jack.
Sorry, Danny. (Cheers, both)
Not as heroic as you paint it, I'm afraid. 110 Sqdn was well back out of trouble in West Bengal when I was "converted" onto the VV.
Even when we got down to business in Arakan, ours were the safest ops imaginable...D.
Brian 48nav,
Doesn't ring a bell, I'm afraid. The Spitfires were well back, I think, it was only Hurricanes with us in Arakan.
Now, if he was in VVs, there were four RAF Sqdns of them, and two IAF. I was on 110 (RAF) in Arakan in pre-monsoon '43, and in Assam post-monsoon, up to November '43, then back in Arakan with 8 (IAF) Jan'44.
As we were only operating on rough "kutcha" strips there, there was only room for one squadron on each (I can only remember being with 82 at Chittagong (hardstandings) for a few weeks early '43, but we didn't socialise at all).
Got out in '72 for same reason as your Jack.
Sorry, Danny. (Cheers, both)
Mike Warren
Grim Reaper,Danny42c
I have been following the tale of Mike Warren with great interest.
The book 619, History of a forgotten Squadron by Bryan Clark contains a list of Aircraft Captains who served with the squadron from June 43 to May 45 and there is no mention of the above named gentleman.
The plot thickens!!
I have been following the tale of Mike Warren with great interest.
The book 619, History of a forgotten Squadron by Bryan Clark contains a list of Aircraft Captains who served with the squadron from June 43 to May 45 and there is no mention of the above named gentleman.
The plot thickens!!
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Llandudno
Age: 100
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaining An R.A.F. Pilots Brevet In WW11
Thank you Warmtoast and Danny.
Off to Kinloss! Night sleeper from Euston, woke in the Highlands, changed at Aviemore, village then, vast now!
Kinloss was a wartime station. Wooden huts and messes and home to No 236 Operational Conversion Unit with Neptunes and Shackletons and the resident Neptune squadron. No 217 under the command of the famous Wing Commander Mike Ensor.
The Lockheed Neptune was a development of the Ventura which was a development of the Hudson, so Lockheed was not unknown to the R.A.F.
A modified Neptune called the Truculent Turtle held the long distance record, at that time, 11000 miles from Perth, Western Australia to Columbus Ohio
The Neptune was quite a big aircraft with lots of good ideas. It had two very reliable Wright Turbo Compound engines of 3500 horse power. The turbines in the exhaust gave an extra 400 horse power. In 1200 hours I only had one engine failure. It had reverse pitch on the very large propellors which enabled short landings and less wear and tear on brakes and tyres.
It was armed with front and rear turrets containing twin 20mm cannon and a twin mid upper turret with point 5 machine guns.
In an attack, lift spoilers on the top of each wing and operated by a button on the control column allowed the selected wing to drop giving a very steep turn. There was an electric "Varicam" in the tailplane which helped to flare when landing. The tip tanks carried 250 gallons each. The left one also carried the APS 31 attack radar and the "bubble" under the fuselage carried the APS 20 which gave all round cover and could transmit the picture to a friendly warship or carrier.
We had a decent bomb bay and also rocket rails under each wing to carry 16 rockets. It was very much an all electric aeroplane with an enormous circuit breaker panel by the entrance to the cockpit.
There was automatic synchronisation of the engines,monitored by a BMEP guage, brake mean effective pressure, which gave the power of each engine. On run up , a difference of 1!/2 pounds was allowed. If more , return to dispersal. Believe me that instrument was the most watched "far out"!!
We did two weeks ground school to learn about the systems and were crewed up for the course. Two pilots, two navigators, an engineer and five signallers (gunners). The engineer sat on a wooden chair in the entrance to the cockpit. At his leftwas the electrical panel and all the circuit breakers. In front of him, under a flap in the floor was the fuel set up, transfer cocks etc.
The aircraft was very quiet. We could talk between the pilots and engineer without intercom. W e just wore headsets and throat mikes.
This all changed later when we joined our squadrons.
It was quite a job to board the Neptune and it paid to be fairly slim and fit. there was a tunnel to crawl along to get to the front turret, and you had to crawl overthe wing which came through the aircraft to get to the back turrets. However it was a lovely aircraft to fly and an interesting one to take abroad and to other stations.
Kinloss was very busy so we did most of our circuit work at Milltown a few miles to the east. Night flying at that time of the year was difficult as there were only a few dark hours during the summer.
Solos over (I was at ITW in 1943 with my instructor), it was applied flying. Navexs, North Sea and Atlantic, bombing, gunnery, rocketry, radar homings until the end of the course at the end of August 1953.
Postings, where? .... TOPCLIFFE!!! (again)
Off to Kinloss! Night sleeper from Euston, woke in the Highlands, changed at Aviemore, village then, vast now!
Kinloss was a wartime station. Wooden huts and messes and home to No 236 Operational Conversion Unit with Neptunes and Shackletons and the resident Neptune squadron. No 217 under the command of the famous Wing Commander Mike Ensor.
The Lockheed Neptune was a development of the Ventura which was a development of the Hudson, so Lockheed was not unknown to the R.A.F.
A modified Neptune called the Truculent Turtle held the long distance record, at that time, 11000 miles from Perth, Western Australia to Columbus Ohio
The Neptune was quite a big aircraft with lots of good ideas. It had two very reliable Wright Turbo Compound engines of 3500 horse power. The turbines in the exhaust gave an extra 400 horse power. In 1200 hours I only had one engine failure. It had reverse pitch on the very large propellors which enabled short landings and less wear and tear on brakes and tyres.
It was armed with front and rear turrets containing twin 20mm cannon and a twin mid upper turret with point 5 machine guns.
In an attack, lift spoilers on the top of each wing and operated by a button on the control column allowed the selected wing to drop giving a very steep turn. There was an electric "Varicam" in the tailplane which helped to flare when landing. The tip tanks carried 250 gallons each. The left one also carried the APS 31 attack radar and the "bubble" under the fuselage carried the APS 20 which gave all round cover and could transmit the picture to a friendly warship or carrier.
We had a decent bomb bay and also rocket rails under each wing to carry 16 rockets. It was very much an all electric aeroplane with an enormous circuit breaker panel by the entrance to the cockpit.
There was automatic synchronisation of the engines,monitored by a BMEP guage, brake mean effective pressure, which gave the power of each engine. On run up , a difference of 1!/2 pounds was allowed. If more , return to dispersal. Believe me that instrument was the most watched "far out"!!
We did two weeks ground school to learn about the systems and were crewed up for the course. Two pilots, two navigators, an engineer and five signallers (gunners). The engineer sat on a wooden chair in the entrance to the cockpit. At his leftwas the electrical panel and all the circuit breakers. In front of him, under a flap in the floor was the fuel set up, transfer cocks etc.
The aircraft was very quiet. We could talk between the pilots and engineer without intercom. W e just wore headsets and throat mikes.
This all changed later when we joined our squadrons.
It was quite a job to board the Neptune and it paid to be fairly slim and fit. there was a tunnel to crawl along to get to the front turret, and you had to crawl overthe wing which came through the aircraft to get to the back turrets. However it was a lovely aircraft to fly and an interesting one to take abroad and to other stations.
Kinloss was very busy so we did most of our circuit work at Milltown a few miles to the east. Night flying at that time of the year was difficult as there were only a few dark hours during the summer.
Solos over (I was at ITW in 1943 with my instructor), it was applied flying. Navexs, North Sea and Atlantic, bombing, gunnery, rocketry, radar homings until the end of the course at the end of August 1953.
Postings, where? .... TOPCLIFFE!!! (again)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Wing Commander "Mike" Warren.
GrimReaper71,
Let me be the first to welcome you aboard this best of all Threads (as it is in our estimation, at least !), and to express my admiration for the work done by your organisation "Project Propeller", which must have given, and is still giving no end of pleasure to many old-timers.
I've several times in the course of my Posts mooted the possibility of securing new members from your grateful beneficiaries for this "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread, for last year it seemed that the line was destined to end with me. Happily, two more have recently surfaced, but in the nature of things there cannot be many more to come, and we need all the help we can get !
Now to the matter at hand. There must be many others who are deeply suspicious of this story. There have been very successful hoaxes of this kind in the past. Btw, could you let me have the name (on open Post, so we can all have a look) on that other Forum which you mention as taking an interest in this puzzle ?
As you say, the age is the essence of the problem, for if it be correct as stated by BBC Tees, then things simply don't add up. Take his reported claim that he "trained with Gibson". Gibson was born in 1918, he'd be 96 (next month) had he lived, that can't be right !
Regards, Danny.
Let me be the first to welcome you aboard this best of all Threads (as it is in our estimation, at least !), and to express my admiration for the work done by your organisation "Project Propeller", which must have given, and is still giving no end of pleasure to many old-timers.
I've several times in the course of my Posts mooted the possibility of securing new members from your grateful beneficiaries for this "Gaining a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread, for last year it seemed that the line was destined to end with me. Happily, two more have recently surfaced, but in the nature of things there cannot be many more to come, and we need all the help we can get !
Now to the matter at hand. There must be many others who are deeply suspicious of this story. There have been very successful hoaxes of this kind in the past. Btw, could you let me have the name (on open Post, so we can all have a look) on that other Forum which you mention as taking an interest in this puzzle ?
As you say, the age is the essence of the problem, for if it be correct as stated by BBC Tees, then things simply don't add up. Take his reported claim that he "trained with Gibson". Gibson was born in 1918, he'd be 96 (next month) had he lived, that can't be right !
Regards, Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 8th Jul 2014 at 23:16. Reason: Grammar !
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike Warren
Good evening Danny, and others.
At a Project Propeller event, I think about 5/6 years ago, I had the pleasure of meeting the originator of this thread, and did have a read through it as a voyeur. I must have a gap of several years to catch up on though!
The Forum I refer to is simply the Project Propeller thread that I started about the 2014 event, during the course of which I recounted the story I had been told. My comments have been cut & pasted above, there is no further discussion about the gentleman in question.
As and when I have anything further to say - and I expect that I will - I shall share this.
(As an aside Danny, are you a registrant for Project Propeller? We had 161 veterans this year, it was a huge success. Always looking for veterans to join - I found 30 new registrants this year)
At a Project Propeller event, I think about 5/6 years ago, I had the pleasure of meeting the originator of this thread, and did have a read through it as a voyeur. I must have a gap of several years to catch up on though!
The Forum I refer to is simply the Project Propeller thread that I started about the 2014 event, during the course of which I recounted the story I had been told. My comments have been cut & pasted above, there is no further discussion about the gentleman in question.
As and when I have anything further to say - and I expect that I will - I shall share this.
(As an aside Danny, are you a registrant for Project Propeller? We had 161 veterans this year, it was a huge success. Always looking for veterans to join - I found 30 new registrants this year)
The Comm. Flight Feb/March '45
The first two days of February Geoff spent in further “getting to know” the Expediter - circuits, S E flying, & overshoot procedure. The 7th he was back in Argus 806 taking a Sqn/Ldr Gibb from Palam to Riapur via Allahabad and Bisalpur. The 8th he flew him from Riapur to Jharsuguda, then they headed for Allahabad, but twenty mins. out the engine began to fail and they returned to Jharsuguda for rectification. After a 30 minute air test, Geoff was able to complete the journey to Allahabad with Sqn/Ldr Gibb. He returned to Palam the following day with no pax.
Feb. 13/14 more air tests in Expediter 476, and then on the 15th he flies a civilian (Mr Baillie) in an Indian registered Proctor, VT-A5B, from Palam to Jodhpur, and returns the same day as 2nd pilot in Dakota 536. Feb 16 he gives their Harvard (546) an air test, and next day Expediter 244 is given a 45 minute air test as well. He was to use this particular A/C on a three day trip to the south which went as follows:
24th Feb. Palam – Bhopal – Poona nightstop.
25th Feb. Poona – Yellahanka – Arkonam – St. Thomas' Mount nightstop.
26th Feb. St. Thomas' Mount – Hakimpet – Nagpur – Gwalior – Palam.
Again in the same Expediter 244, on 28th Feb. he flies a Wg/Cdr Chalmers from Palam to Dum-Dum with stops at Allahabad and Bikram en route
Summary for February 1945. Expediter 25.30 Dakota 2.00 Harvard 0.30 Proctor 2.15 Argus 17.30
March 1st he continues to fly Wg/Cdr Chalmers, Dum-Dum – Comilla nightstop.
March 2 a short hop (0.45) to Lalaghat nightstop.
March 3 Geoff returns to Dum-Dum without pax.
March 5 he flies a Sqn/Ldr Firth as follows:
Dum-Dum – Cox's Bazaar 1.30
Cox's Bazaar – Akyab – Ramree Isl. 1.05
Ramree Isl. - Akyab – Cox's Bazaar 1.30
Cox's Bazaar – Dum-Dum 1.30
March 6th he returns to Palam via Gaya and Allahabad.
The rest of March consists of air tests and “milk runs” with only two new destinations, Maharajpur and Ahmadabad
Summary for March 1945. Expediter 29.10 Harvard 2.45 Proctor 0.45 Argus 2.30
Ian BB
Feb. 13/14 more air tests in Expediter 476, and then on the 15th he flies a civilian (Mr Baillie) in an Indian registered Proctor, VT-A5B, from Palam to Jodhpur, and returns the same day as 2nd pilot in Dakota 536. Feb 16 he gives their Harvard (546) an air test, and next day Expediter 244 is given a 45 minute air test as well. He was to use this particular A/C on a three day trip to the south which went as follows:
24th Feb. Palam – Bhopal – Poona nightstop.
25th Feb. Poona – Yellahanka – Arkonam – St. Thomas' Mount nightstop.
26th Feb. St. Thomas' Mount – Hakimpet – Nagpur – Gwalior – Palam.
Again in the same Expediter 244, on 28th Feb. he flies a Wg/Cdr Chalmers from Palam to Dum-Dum with stops at Allahabad and Bikram en route
Summary for February 1945. Expediter 25.30 Dakota 2.00 Harvard 0.30 Proctor 2.15 Argus 17.30
March 1st he continues to fly Wg/Cdr Chalmers, Dum-Dum – Comilla nightstop.
March 2 a short hop (0.45) to Lalaghat nightstop.
March 3 Geoff returns to Dum-Dum without pax.
March 5 he flies a Sqn/Ldr Firth as follows:
Dum-Dum – Cox's Bazaar 1.30
Cox's Bazaar – Akyab – Ramree Isl. 1.05
Ramree Isl. - Akyab – Cox's Bazaar 1.30
Cox's Bazaar – Dum-Dum 1.30
March 6th he returns to Palam via Gaya and Allahabad.
The rest of March consists of air tests and “milk runs” with only two new destinations, Maharajpur and Ahmadabad
Summary for March 1945. Expediter 29.10 Harvard 2.45 Proctor 0.45 Argus 2.30
Ian BB
Guest
Posts: n/a
GrimReaper71,
I'm grateful for your kind offer to enlist me in your list of lucky oldies, but I'm afraid I'm far too frail now to take advantage of it. But thank you all the same !
I gather your first Post was the "cut 'n paste" you refer to - sorry if I've started a hare running ! On the main subject, surely it must be possible for someone to get hold of the '44 and '45 Air Force Lists. Could the Reference section of a local Library get them for you, if asked nicely ? (not me - too immobile).
Matter of interest: do you ask your potential "customers" to show their Log Books ? (Everybody hangs on to those, don't they ?) That should flush out a few "Walter Mittys", I'd think.
Cheers, Danny.
I'm grateful for your kind offer to enlist me in your list of lucky oldies, but I'm afraid I'm far too frail now to take advantage of it. But thank you all the same !
I gather your first Post was the "cut 'n paste" you refer to - sorry if I've started a hare running ! On the main subject, surely it must be possible for someone to get hold of the '44 and '45 Air Force Lists. Could the Reference section of a local Library get them for you, if asked nicely ? (not me - too immobile).
Matter of interest: do you ask your potential "customers" to show their Log Books ? (Everybody hangs on to those, don't they ?) That should flush out a few "Walter Mittys", I'd think.
Cheers, Danny.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Neptunes
Ormeside,
Your Neptune sounds as good as it looks. And you had all the bells & whistles imaginable, too.
I never had to go through any tunnels myself, but I believe that in the (pressurised) B-29s there was always some anxiety in the tunnel about what might happen if the pressurisation failed at one end - but not at the other - and you became the slug in a giant airgun !
The Wright Compounds must have been one of the monster 4-row radials (the "corncob engines"). IIRC, they had to give up after four rows as they couldn't work out how to aircool a fifth. No doubt your turbos exhausted near the engines. In the P47 "Thunderbolt", a long exhaust pipe led from the Twin Wasp to the turbo in the bottom of the fuselage a long way back.
This caused much alarm and despondency among onlookers not familiar with type when you cranked-up, for the usual gush of flame, smoke and soot came out not where expected, but near the tail, and they feared the worst.
Danny.
Your Neptune sounds as good as it looks. And you had all the bells & whistles imaginable, too.
I never had to go through any tunnels myself, but I believe that in the (pressurised) B-29s there was always some anxiety in the tunnel about what might happen if the pressurisation failed at one end - but not at the other - and you became the slug in a giant airgun !
The Wright Compounds must have been one of the monster 4-row radials (the "corncob engines"). IIRC, they had to give up after four rows as they couldn't work out how to aircool a fifth. No doubt your turbos exhausted near the engines. In the P47 "Thunderbolt", a long exhaust pipe led from the Twin Wasp to the turbo in the bottom of the fuselage a long way back.
This caused much alarm and despondency among onlookers not familiar with type when you cranked-up, for the usual gush of flame, smoke and soot came out not where expected, but near the tail, and they feared the worst.
Danny.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Llandudno
Age: 100
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gaining An R.A.F. Pilots Brevet In WW11
Thank you Danny and Warmtoast. I forgot to say that in the starboard tip tank on the Neptune we carried a 75 million candlepower searchlight which was controlled from the co pilots position. He also had a portable APS31 which could be fitted to a bracket so that he could control an attack at night on a submarine with the captain on instruments (and not supposed to look out!!)
Danny the Wright Turbo compound was only a twin row.
Now back at Topcliffe, different mess!. Transport Command and their Hastings had gone and Topcliffe was now a Coastal Command station.There were two Neptune Squadrons, Nos 203 and 210, commanded respectivly by Squadron Leaders Horton and Kerr, both soon to become Wing Commanders.The squadrons had just given up their Lancasters and converted to Neptunes, shortly they were to be obliged to post some members to form No 36, also at Topcliffe. We also had No 1453 Flight of three Neptunes but they were Fighter Command and used for Airborne Early Warning.
The people we joined were very experienced Coastal men, and they taught us so much of the Coastal Profession. (Who will teach Maritime Air now if we ever have a Maritime Force again- read Big Steamers by Rudyard Kipling)
Danny the Wright Turbo compound was only a twin row.
Now back at Topcliffe, different mess!. Transport Command and their Hastings had gone and Topcliffe was now a Coastal Command station.There were two Neptune Squadrons, Nos 203 and 210, commanded respectivly by Squadron Leaders Horton and Kerr, both soon to become Wing Commanders.The squadrons had just given up their Lancasters and converted to Neptunes, shortly they were to be obliged to post some members to form No 36, also at Topcliffe. We also had No 1453 Flight of three Neptunes but they were Fighter Command and used for Airborne Early Warning.
The people we joined were very experienced Coastal men, and they taught us so much of the Coastal Profession. (Who will teach Maritime Air now if we ever have a Maritime Force again- read Big Steamers by Rudyard Kipling)
A friend of mine is part of the team that flies a Neptune in Australia. In the United States there are several flying and also working. Neptune Aviation operates six in the fire-fighting role in company with, believe it or not, four BA 146s.