Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Guest
Posts: n/a
MPN11 and Jaganpvs,
MPN11, surely they're not going to knock down that beautiful old Art Deco building down just because it encroaches on a 1:7 approach slope ? It was built for a slower, more gracious age when things like the HP42 floated gently down on Croyden and Le Bourget.
That was nothing but a big 4-motor Tiger Moth, Imperial Airways flew it down the Empire air routes for ten years pre-war, it never hurt a passenger in all its days. They had big, comfortable Lloyd-Loom type wicker chairs and there were little chintz curtains on the windows.
I suppose it would come in about 1:4 (not like today's projectiles, which hurtle in, scraping the boundary fence at about double the speed of the HP42's cruise, and then need most of 12,000 feet to top.) Biplanes for ever !
Jagan, At least they're not going to tear down yours at Begumpet - yet ! Looks to have been built in the same, leisurely, elegant era when the Raj looked as if it would last for ever ! - and regle (RIP) was the personal pilot of Mr Ratan Tata (Reg's Posts are way back on this Thread, including the gripping one of his hi-jack at Tel Aviv, when he was a Sabena 707 Captain. EDIT: Page 90 #1786 et seq this Thread.
Glad we cleared up the "966" mystery. But why would I not know they burned it ? As far as I was concerned, when it was struck off my charge, I must have simply forgotten all about it.
Danny.
MPN11, surely they're not going to knock down that beautiful old Art Deco building down just because it encroaches on a 1:7 approach slope ? It was built for a slower, more gracious age when things like the HP42 floated gently down on Croyden and Le Bourget.
That was nothing but a big 4-motor Tiger Moth, Imperial Airways flew it down the Empire air routes for ten years pre-war, it never hurt a passenger in all its days. They had big, comfortable Lloyd-Loom type wicker chairs and there were little chintz curtains on the windows.
I suppose it would come in about 1:4 (not like today's projectiles, which hurtle in, scraping the boundary fence at about double the speed of the HP42's cruise, and then need most of 12,000 feet to top.) Biplanes for ever !
Jagan, At least they're not going to tear down yours at Begumpet - yet ! Looks to have been built in the same, leisurely, elegant era when the Raj looked as if it would last for ever ! - and regle (RIP) was the personal pilot of Mr Ratan Tata (Reg's Posts are way back on this Thread, including the gripping one of his hi-jack at Tel Aviv, when he was a Sabena 707 Captain. EDIT: Page 90 #1786 et seq this Thread.
Glad we cleared up the "966" mystery. But why would I not know they burned it ? As far as I was concerned, when it was struck off my charge, I must have simply forgotten all about it.
Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 26th Jul 2014 at 18:18. Reason: Add Reference.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Danny hears the Sound of Pratt & Whitney once again.
It was summertime, but I'm not sure which summer. Anyway, there was this NATO exercise somewhere up by Otterburn, IIRC, and the Belgians were taking part. As far as Leeming was concerned, their part consisted of four (?) C-119 Fairchild "Flying Boxcars". I would think that they brought over and dropped paratroops as their share of the exercise, then landed back at Leeming to await the end (two weeks) and take their troops back.
Meanwhile their aircraft were parked down at the SW side of the airfield. Naturally we went across to have a look; the thing looked a very useful piece of machinery indeed and I found (as always) that Belgian French is easier to get along with than French French (not that I could speak much of either).
They were no problem ATC-wise. Their arrival filled the skies with the sonorous roar of two (each) Pratt & Whitney R-4360 "Wasp Majors" (3,500 hp). These, to be the last of the noble line of P&W piston aero engines, were 28-cylinder four-row radial monsters of about 70 litres swept volume: they could kick up a fair row at full chat.
The C-119s were expected to stay put (more or less) during their detachment, but after a day or so they started to do "admin" trips back home & return. And it was noted that they seemed always to go out well down on the oleos, and take up nearly all of Leeming's 7,500 ft before lifting, bellowing, off, yet returning "light" the same day, Clearly there was something inside which didn't come back.
It was another couple of days before the mystery was solved. There was sudden complaint from the Patches that the NAAFI was always short of butter; it seemed that the shelves were being cleared as soon as they were stocked. This was long before the Common Agricultural Policy, and for some strange reason it seems that NAAFI butter was then much cheaper than Belgian butter. The commercial possibilities were obvious, and were being exploited to the full by our canny visitors.
I read that the C-119 has a 10,000 lb payload capacity, and it has stacks of room inside. At only a few pence/centimes (?) per half-pound, a very lucrative trade was being developed. Our Customs took no interest in the departures, and as they always came back empty, there was nothing to worry them there (what happened at the Belgian Customs, I don't want to know).
The NAAFI profits jumped up, our guests were happy, it was win-win all round. (Except, of course, for the butterless Leeming wives, and most people did a weekly shop in Northallerton anyway).
Not only did we provide our Belgian friends with this splendid opportunity, but on one occasion we supplied entertainment as well. They were housed more or less across from the S end of our main runway. A (dual) JP lined-up for take-off on 34 and opened the throttle. It got about 100 yds (just about opposite a group of Belgians who were taking their ease on the grass in the warm sunshine and watching the show), when a turbine wheel in the Viper burst. The shrapnel effectively bisected the JP, but did not harm the occupants, who naturally vacated the premises without further delay. There was no fire.
Although they were directly in the line of fire, the onlookers were untouched, and after Crash One and Two had attended and made all safe, strolled across to join OC (Tech) and his minions, (our guests' faith in the excellence of British aero engineering sadly diminished). And they helped in the task of picking up bits of scrap blades, etc. off the runway.
At the end of the fortnight, their "battle"-weary paratroops were bussed-back for the flight home (of course, there was no room for any more butter). We said farewell to our Belgian friends, with many expressions of mutual esteem. The supply of butter at Leeming returned to normal.
Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.
All's well that Ends Well !
Meanwhile their aircraft were parked down at the SW side of the airfield. Naturally we went across to have a look; the thing looked a very useful piece of machinery indeed and I found (as always) that Belgian French is easier to get along with than French French (not that I could speak much of either).
They were no problem ATC-wise. Their arrival filled the skies with the sonorous roar of two (each) Pratt & Whitney R-4360 "Wasp Majors" (3,500 hp). These, to be the last of the noble line of P&W piston aero engines, were 28-cylinder four-row radial monsters of about 70 litres swept volume: they could kick up a fair row at full chat.
The C-119s were expected to stay put (more or less) during their detachment, but after a day or so they started to do "admin" trips back home & return. And it was noted that they seemed always to go out well down on the oleos, and take up nearly all of Leeming's 7,500 ft before lifting, bellowing, off, yet returning "light" the same day, Clearly there was something inside which didn't come back.
It was another couple of days before the mystery was solved. There was sudden complaint from the Patches that the NAAFI was always short of butter; it seemed that the shelves were being cleared as soon as they were stocked. This was long before the Common Agricultural Policy, and for some strange reason it seems that NAAFI butter was then much cheaper than Belgian butter. The commercial possibilities were obvious, and were being exploited to the full by our canny visitors.
I read that the C-119 has a 10,000 lb payload capacity, and it has stacks of room inside. At only a few pence/centimes (?) per half-pound, a very lucrative trade was being developed. Our Customs took no interest in the departures, and as they always came back empty, there was nothing to worry them there (what happened at the Belgian Customs, I don't want to know).
The NAAFI profits jumped up, our guests were happy, it was win-win all round. (Except, of course, for the butterless Leeming wives, and most people did a weekly shop in Northallerton anyway).
Not only did we provide our Belgian friends with this splendid opportunity, but on one occasion we supplied entertainment as well. They were housed more or less across from the S end of our main runway. A (dual) JP lined-up for take-off on 34 and opened the throttle. It got about 100 yds (just about opposite a group of Belgians who were taking their ease on the grass in the warm sunshine and watching the show), when a turbine wheel in the Viper burst. The shrapnel effectively bisected the JP, but did not harm the occupants, who naturally vacated the premises without further delay. There was no fire.
Although they were directly in the line of fire, the onlookers were untouched, and after Crash One and Two had attended and made all safe, strolled across to join OC (Tech) and his minions, (our guests' faith in the excellence of British aero engineering sadly diminished). And they helped in the task of picking up bits of scrap blades, etc. off the runway.
At the end of the fortnight, their "battle"-weary paratroops were bussed-back for the flight home (of course, there was no room for any more butter). We said farewell to our Belgian friends, with many expressions of mutual esteem. The supply of butter at Leeming returned to normal.
Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.
All's well that Ends Well !
Last edited by Danny42C; 26th Jul 2014 at 19:56. Reason: Amendment
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,807
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
ancientaviator62 ... Ah, AC-119K. Nice bit of kit, IMO.
Danny42C ... JER wasn't HP42 territory of course. But the new airport was better than using the beach. It was mainly DH-89 Dragon Rapide territory pre-War.
Danny42C ... JER wasn't HP42 territory of course. But the new airport was better than using the beach. It was mainly DH-89 Dragon Rapide territory pre-War.
Guest
Posts: n/a
ancientaviator62 and MPN11,
Lovely photos (how the Jersey beach shot conjures up the endless sunny summer days just before the war). All sorts of things (but mainly five-bob "hop" merchants) flew off the beaches, nobody seemed to mind and I don't think many little boys got trampled on by aeroplanes.
What are lined up are Dragon Rapides (DH89) and their big brothers, DH Express (sometimes "Empire") Air Liners (DH86). why the numbering is that way, I don't know. IIRC the plain Dragon [DH84] came first, then the sleeker Dragon Rapide, then the Express.
Yes, the C-119 "Packet" looks a big, tough brute, doesn't it ? Has No.2 prop been through a sandstorm lately ?
One small cavil: please can we slim the photos down a bit, so's they fit in better ?
Thanks to you both, Danny.
Lovely photos (how the Jersey beach shot conjures up the endless sunny summer days just before the war). All sorts of things (but mainly five-bob "hop" merchants) flew off the beaches, nobody seemed to mind and I don't think many little boys got trampled on by aeroplanes.
What are lined up are Dragon Rapides (DH89) and their big brothers, DH Express (sometimes "Empire") Air Liners (DH86). why the numbering is that way, I don't know. IIRC the plain Dragon [DH84] came first, then the sleeker Dragon Rapide, then the Express.
Yes, the C-119 "Packet" looks a big, tough brute, doesn't it ? Has No.2 prop been through a sandstorm lately ?
One small cavil: please can we slim the photos down a bit, so's they fit in better ?
Thanks to you both, Danny.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,807
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
One small cavil: please can we slim the photos down a bit, so's they fit in better ?
Flight planning must have been interesting, as the huge tidal range in Jersey only allowed a few hours of operation before the incoming tide reached the sea wall in the background. And not 5-bob hops either - this was scheduled airline operation to assorted southern UK airports.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Danny does Teesside Airport a Good Turn
All the time I was at Leeming, we enjoyed good relations with Teesside "International" Airport (well, they did have daily flights to Schipol, and there was the summer charter traffic to Jersey and the Costas). The airfield was the old RAF Middleton St.George (sold for a song to a consortium of Local Authorities in the'60s, and they got the Ghost thrown in). They built themselves a nice little Terminal Building, converted the O.M. into the St.George Hotel and opened for business.They ran a five-a-day connecting shuttle to Heathrow (first flight out 0615, last back about 2230).
During my time I think British Midland had the contract. IIRC, they started with a Viscount, then had a 737 (old stlye), then a DC-7 for a while and lastly a new pattern 737. Many years after my retirement, I think BMIbaby inherited the LHR shuttle, business was not too brisk and their PR wizards thought that a new name might pep things up.
So the good folk of Teesside woke up one morning to find that they were now the proud owners of "The Durham and Tees Valley International Airport". (The rumour was that BMIbaby, in thrall to their PR experts, had demanded this change as a condition for continuing the service, which was not exactly a money-spinner: the airport Authority was over a barrel and had to capitulate).
The Good Folk previously mentioned (and just about everyone else) found this a source of much innocent merriment, and continued to call it "Teesside Airport" (and do so to this day). We all know that anybody in Durham who wants to fly somewhere jumps in the car and roars off up the A1(M) to Newcastle. Not only is it quicker and easier than to get to D&TV (MME), but you had a much better choice of destinations at NCL.
And now you have an infinitely better choice. For after a year or so BMIbaby (?) had to accept that they were never going to make a go of it, and pulled out, leaving MME with the Schipol route, some oil-rig flights to Aberdeen, a Flying School and not much else apart from a silly name. And how they keep going, I don't know.
But now we will backtrack 45 years to the ATC at Leeming. At that time Teesside still had only their ACR-7D radar (and I don't think the RAF had left the CR/CA/DF behind). Of course, they had ILS, which was all the civil side wanted. My old colleague at Strubby, John Henderson, had retired and was SATCO there; several times I'd taken parties of our new trainees over for liaison visits (HughGw01 mentioned one such trip some time since).
The only occasions we needed to co-ordinate air movements were on their ten daily MME-LHR transits to and from the Pole Hill VOR (about 60 miles). When our 16 was in use, the Safety Lane was out to the NW, and their direct route crossed it about 12 miles out. So every 1½ hours from 0630 to about 2230, they would use our direct line to get a clipped response: "Clear direct to the Pole" or (if we had anything conflicting): "Clear to Point Alpha". This was a spot somewhere up round Barnard Castle (about 14 mi N); the dog-leg only added a few minutes to the flight, but kept them a lot safer. There have never been any near misses. (All their holiday traffic went out and in from Ottringham, well away from us).
One evening, near the end of my time, 3 AFS had finished for the day, night was falling and we had no traffic at Leeming. Teesside came on the phone. They were trying to recover a "puddle-jumper", and not having much success. Some farmers on North Yorkshire's broad acres are not short of a bob or two, they could get themseves a PPL at Teesside, buy a light aircraft, hangar it in a barn, and they had plenty of their own flat grassland to fly from. Naturally they flew whenever they wanted with no reference to anybody. They were just a small addition to all the Bloggses daily wandering about at all heights and in all directions from the several RAF training Stations in the Vale of York ("Death Valley !" in civil parlance).
It seemed that this particular Farmer Giles had gone down to visit the farm of a friend somewhere near Hull, but had left it a little (well, rather a lot) late starting back. Consequently he'd been overtaken by darkness, which prevented a safe attempt to land on home turf (where of course there was no lighting - nor much else, apart from a home-made windsock). No problem, he'd go on to Teesside (not much further), leave the aircraft there; Mrs Farmer G would come up by road and collect him.
Now how much night flying he'd done (or whether he'd done any - do you need it for a PPL ?), I don't know. Then, predictably, he got lost and was wandering forlornly about somewhere in the skies of North Yorkshire. Teesside's puny radar was little help: if he had a radio compass he'd no idea how to use it: he was "up the creek without a paddle" and no mistake. I'd always been boasting about this wondrous AR-1 we had - could I possibly assist ? Noblesse oblige !: "Of course", said D., "Never fear, Leeming is here - I'll take him. Leave the line open. I'll see what we can do". (Why do I never learn NOT TO VOLUNTEER).
The first task was to establish contact, it took some time to cajole him to come off their VHF frequency, launch into the unknown and try all the buttons until we got him on 117.9. Now it was up to me, it should be plain sailing. "Approach" got a QTE on CR/DF, he was somewhere to the East. "Talkdown" (humble self) looked down the line and there he was, 25 miles East, mooching about helplessly over the North York Moors.
These run up to about 1200 ft AMSL, and not very far from him was Bilsdale TV Mast (another 1000 on top of that). There was broken cloud at 2500. At all costs I must keep him away from that Mast, and get him out of the hills onto the plains ASAP. Shouldn't be difficult - I had him under control (or thought I had). First things first. I got him to set QNH and told him, on pain of death, not to go below 2500 until otherwise advised.
Knowing exactly where Bilsdale was, all I needed to do was to move him North till he was well out of harm's way, then West. But I would tell him to fly North, and he would fly East. Or East, and he would go South. I queried his compass, but was assured that that had been fine so far. So why...?
"Nay, lad", he'd say, "there's cloud in t'way". This was going to be interesting (to put it mildly). Teesside ATC, having offloaded this nightmare onto me, were enjoying it all enormously from their safe standpoint, and offered sympathy.
I thought I might soon need it. There was only one end to this carry-on: the prognosis was not good. A vision was forming in my mind, of a Coroner's Court with me as the star witness at an Inquest. What was his fuel state ? He wasn't quite sure, but anyway "he'd had plenty when he set off ". Somehow (I ascribe it mainly to the power of prayer !), we got him off the high ground and from then on it was easy. I offset my centre spot onto T/side, then zoomed in progressively until I could put him on long finals for their 04 (045 ?) - the scene of my faux-pas some 19 years before). I stepped him down to 1000 ft with ten miles to go to touch down, they took him back onto their ACR-7, and it was in the bag.
It was the custom in those gracious days, for the countryfolk in these parts to reward doctors, vets (and any other professionals) who had done them good service over the year) with a suitable token (always in kind) of their esteem at Christmas. Old Dr. Swanston could have set up an off-licence in his Thirsk surgery with the bottles of Port, Sherry and "Old Sheep Dip", to say nothing of the hams and legs of lamb which were left there.
I waited in pleasant expectation. Not a sausage ! Ah, well.
Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.
Virtue is its own reward ?
During my time I think British Midland had the contract. IIRC, they started with a Viscount, then had a 737 (old stlye), then a DC-7 for a while and lastly a new pattern 737. Many years after my retirement, I think BMIbaby inherited the LHR shuttle, business was not too brisk and their PR wizards thought that a new name might pep things up.
So the good folk of Teesside woke up one morning to find that they were now the proud owners of "The Durham and Tees Valley International Airport". (The rumour was that BMIbaby, in thrall to their PR experts, had demanded this change as a condition for continuing the service, which was not exactly a money-spinner: the airport Authority was over a barrel and had to capitulate).
The Good Folk previously mentioned (and just about everyone else) found this a source of much innocent merriment, and continued to call it "Teesside Airport" (and do so to this day). We all know that anybody in Durham who wants to fly somewhere jumps in the car and roars off up the A1(M) to Newcastle. Not only is it quicker and easier than to get to D&TV (MME), but you had a much better choice of destinations at NCL.
And now you have an infinitely better choice. For after a year or so BMIbaby (?) had to accept that they were never going to make a go of it, and pulled out, leaving MME with the Schipol route, some oil-rig flights to Aberdeen, a Flying School and not much else apart from a silly name. And how they keep going, I don't know.
But now we will backtrack 45 years to the ATC at Leeming. At that time Teesside still had only their ACR-7D radar (and I don't think the RAF had left the CR/CA/DF behind). Of course, they had ILS, which was all the civil side wanted. My old colleague at Strubby, John Henderson, had retired and was SATCO there; several times I'd taken parties of our new trainees over for liaison visits (HughGw01 mentioned one such trip some time since).
The only occasions we needed to co-ordinate air movements were on their ten daily MME-LHR transits to and from the Pole Hill VOR (about 60 miles). When our 16 was in use, the Safety Lane was out to the NW, and their direct route crossed it about 12 miles out. So every 1½ hours from 0630 to about 2230, they would use our direct line to get a clipped response: "Clear direct to the Pole" or (if we had anything conflicting): "Clear to Point Alpha". This was a spot somewhere up round Barnard Castle (about 14 mi N); the dog-leg only added a few minutes to the flight, but kept them a lot safer. There have never been any near misses. (All their holiday traffic went out and in from Ottringham, well away from us).
One evening, near the end of my time, 3 AFS had finished for the day, night was falling and we had no traffic at Leeming. Teesside came on the phone. They were trying to recover a "puddle-jumper", and not having much success. Some farmers on North Yorkshire's broad acres are not short of a bob or two, they could get themseves a PPL at Teesside, buy a light aircraft, hangar it in a barn, and they had plenty of their own flat grassland to fly from. Naturally they flew whenever they wanted with no reference to anybody. They were just a small addition to all the Bloggses daily wandering about at all heights and in all directions from the several RAF training Stations in the Vale of York ("Death Valley !" in civil parlance).
It seemed that this particular Farmer Giles had gone down to visit the farm of a friend somewhere near Hull, but had left it a little (well, rather a lot) late starting back. Consequently he'd been overtaken by darkness, which prevented a safe attempt to land on home turf (where of course there was no lighting - nor much else, apart from a home-made windsock). No problem, he'd go on to Teesside (not much further), leave the aircraft there; Mrs Farmer G would come up by road and collect him.
Now how much night flying he'd done (or whether he'd done any - do you need it for a PPL ?), I don't know. Then, predictably, he got lost and was wandering forlornly about somewhere in the skies of North Yorkshire. Teesside's puny radar was little help: if he had a radio compass he'd no idea how to use it: he was "up the creek without a paddle" and no mistake. I'd always been boasting about this wondrous AR-1 we had - could I possibly assist ? Noblesse oblige !: "Of course", said D., "Never fear, Leeming is here - I'll take him. Leave the line open. I'll see what we can do". (Why do I never learn NOT TO VOLUNTEER).
The first task was to establish contact, it took some time to cajole him to come off their VHF frequency, launch into the unknown and try all the buttons until we got him on 117.9. Now it was up to me, it should be plain sailing. "Approach" got a QTE on CR/DF, he was somewhere to the East. "Talkdown" (humble self) looked down the line and there he was, 25 miles East, mooching about helplessly over the North York Moors.
These run up to about 1200 ft AMSL, and not very far from him was Bilsdale TV Mast (another 1000 on top of that). There was broken cloud at 2500. At all costs I must keep him away from that Mast, and get him out of the hills onto the plains ASAP. Shouldn't be difficult - I had him under control (or thought I had). First things first. I got him to set QNH and told him, on pain of death, not to go below 2500 until otherwise advised.
Knowing exactly where Bilsdale was, all I needed to do was to move him North till he was well out of harm's way, then West. But I would tell him to fly North, and he would fly East. Or East, and he would go South. I queried his compass, but was assured that that had been fine so far. So why...?
"Nay, lad", he'd say, "there's cloud in t'way". This was going to be interesting (to put it mildly). Teesside ATC, having offloaded this nightmare onto me, were enjoying it all enormously from their safe standpoint, and offered sympathy.
I thought I might soon need it. There was only one end to this carry-on: the prognosis was not good. A vision was forming in my mind, of a Coroner's Court with me as the star witness at an Inquest. What was his fuel state ? He wasn't quite sure, but anyway "he'd had plenty when he set off ". Somehow (I ascribe it mainly to the power of prayer !), we got him off the high ground and from then on it was easy. I offset my centre spot onto T/side, then zoomed in progressively until I could put him on long finals for their 04 (045 ?) - the scene of my faux-pas some 19 years before). I stepped him down to 1000 ft with ten miles to go to touch down, they took him back onto their ACR-7, and it was in the bag.
It was the custom in those gracious days, for the countryfolk in these parts to reward doctors, vets (and any other professionals) who had done them good service over the year) with a suitable token (always in kind) of their esteem at Christmas. Old Dr. Swanston could have set up an off-licence in his Thirsk surgery with the bottles of Port, Sherry and "Old Sheep Dip", to say nothing of the hams and legs of lamb which were left there.
I waited in pleasant expectation. Not a sausage ! Ah, well.
Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.
Virtue is its own reward ?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Danny
Look what turns up in the mail. A member of the RAFCommands board Scott read the post and emailed me the following Picture..
This is the Harvard FE965 that you wrote about and the terrain looks very different from the "966" in the Album
Anyway - a great picture to accompany your great story!
Look what turns up in the mail. A member of the RAFCommands board Scott read the post and emailed me the following Picture..
This is the Harvard FE965 that you wrote about and the terrain looks very different from the "966" in the Album
Anyway - a great picture to accompany your great story!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Loss of Harvard FE965.
jaganpvs,
This is fascinating ! I've examined the photo minutely, and observe as follows:
I have no recollection of W/Cdr Edmondes (or anybody else) saying anything about a fire in the air at the time. Yet the aircraft shows scorch/smoke marks back from the engine. Even those might be not fire marks, but old oil streaks.
Standing on the wing is an IAF Corporal (no cap ?) Probably from the Repair and Salvage Unit which took it over from me - as also is the figure bending over the cockpit, talking to some one inside. This is a British officer (check cap, smart dherzi-tailored shorts, long woolen socks) who may be RSU (RAF) or from Porcal (Army), but certainly none of mine.
On the far side is an Indian police constable, as is at least one of the figures in the group in the background. The Harvard is in a growing paddy field, seemingly perched on a paddy-bund.
As I said, once the aircraft was off my inventory, I had no further interest in it. Strangely, although I had flown Harvards before and after, I never flew that one - it was solely the W/Cdr's "perk", although it was on my Unit charge and we serviced it. This was now post-war; if originally US-supplied it would certainly have been Lend-Lease. Even if it were repairable, they would now take it back after our repair, oherwise we'd have to destroy it if we didn't want to pay for it. What would have been the position had it been Canadian-built [Canadian Car & Foundry) ? - I don't know).
The easiest solution all round was to destroy it on the spot, so that is what they did. They chopped it up and torched it. That I didn't know (or if I did know, I've entirely forgotten).
This is a wonderful find - many thanks , Jagan. (and also to your correspondent "Scott" of the "RAF Commands Board" (??).
Cheers, Danny.
This is fascinating ! I've examined the photo minutely, and observe as follows:
I have no recollection of W/Cdr Edmondes (or anybody else) saying anything about a fire in the air at the time. Yet the aircraft shows scorch/smoke marks back from the engine. Even those might be not fire marks, but old oil streaks.
Standing on the wing is an IAF Corporal (no cap ?) Probably from the Repair and Salvage Unit which took it over from me - as also is the figure bending over the cockpit, talking to some one inside. This is a British officer (check cap, smart dherzi-tailored shorts, long woolen socks) who may be RSU (RAF) or from Porcal (Army), but certainly none of mine.
On the far side is an Indian police constable, as is at least one of the figures in the group in the background. The Harvard is in a growing paddy field, seemingly perched on a paddy-bund.
As I said, once the aircraft was off my inventory, I had no further interest in it. Strangely, although I had flown Harvards before and after, I never flew that one - it was solely the W/Cdr's "perk", although it was on my Unit charge and we serviced it. This was now post-war; if originally US-supplied it would certainly have been Lend-Lease. Even if it were repairable, they would now take it back after our repair, oherwise we'd have to destroy it if we didn't want to pay for it. What would have been the position had it been Canadian-built [Canadian Car & Foundry) ? - I don't know).
The easiest solution all round was to destroy it on the spot, so that is what they did. They chopped it up and torched it. That I didn't know (or if I did know, I've entirely forgotten).
This is a wonderful find - many thanks , Jagan. (and also to your correspondent "Scott" of the "RAF Commands Board" (??).
Cheers, Danny.
Danny42C
Perhaps this was standard for Harvards. Witness the two photos below showing similar discolouration.
Photos were taken by me at 5 FTS (RAF Thornhill) S. Rhodesia in 1951 - number two is of a "wheels-up" in the Bundu.
Yet the aircraft shows scorch/smoke marks back from the engine
Photos were taken by me at 5 FTS (RAF Thornhill) S. Rhodesia in 1951 - number two is of a "wheels-up" in the Bundu.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guest
Posts: n/a
Warmtoast,
What lovely photos of one of the most important of military aircraft of the 20th century ! The intact specimen shows the cockpit heating arrangement which would make today's 'Elf'n Pastry' have a severe attack of the vapours.
The exhaust pipe is enclosed in a sort of sheet steel "muff" or sleeve, ram air is driven through the narrow gap, warmed and piped into the cockpit. The danger is obvious. IIRC, in the AT-6A, the pipe and sleeve were much longer, so that the instructor in the back seat got the benefit (or the CO, whichever way you look at it) .....D.
On the floor of the cockpit was an open pipe end with a closing flap you fiddled round with your toe. ....D.
jaganpvs,
Another thought, why does FE965 have such big airframe numbers ? (wild guess: they'd been taken from the IAF Hurricane and VV OTUs, where the ground crews would more easily see them when they were coming back into the line (in which case, what is the '0' under the rear cockpit for ?) ....D.
hempy,
What a feast you've laid before me ! Thanks - I'm really going to enjoy this ! ....D. (but Ars Longa, vita brevissimus)
Cheers, everyone. Danny.
What lovely photos of one of the most important of military aircraft of the 20th century ! The intact specimen shows the cockpit heating arrangement which would make today's 'Elf'n Pastry' have a severe attack of the vapours.
The exhaust pipe is enclosed in a sort of sheet steel "muff" or sleeve, ram air is driven through the narrow gap, warmed and piped into the cockpit. The danger is obvious. IIRC, in the AT-6A, the pipe and sleeve were much longer, so that the instructor in the back seat got the benefit (or the CO, whichever way you look at it) .....D.
On the floor of the cockpit was an open pipe end with a closing flap you fiddled round with your toe. ....D.
jaganpvs,
Another thought, why does FE965 have such big airframe numbers ? (wild guess: they'd been taken from the IAF Hurricane and VV OTUs, where the ground crews would more easily see them when they were coming back into the line (in which case, what is the '0' under the rear cockpit for ?) ....D.
hempy,
What a feast you've laid before me ! Thanks - I'm really going to enjoy this ! ....D. (but Ars Longa, vita brevissimus)
Cheers, everyone. Danny.
Danny
Here's an enlargement showing the heating duct going through the middle of the exhaust pipe that you described above.
...and below my favourite Harvard photo of the many I took whilst at 5 FTS.
Here's an enlargement showing the heating duct going through the middle of the exhaust pipe that you described above.
...and below my favourite Harvard photo of the many I took whilst at 5 FTS.
Warmtoast, Danny,
I have to suspect that that heating arrangement has all the capability of the "hose from the exhaust pipe" suicide attempt of times in the past. What a thought that the potential was there to somnambulise the crew !!!! Some great photographs coming in now, keep them flowing.
Smudge
I have to suspect that that heating arrangement has all the capability of the "hose from the exhaust pipe" suicide attempt of times in the past. What a thought that the potential was there to somnambulise the crew !!!! Some great photographs coming in now, keep them flowing.
Smudge
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Warmtoast. Your last photo is a great shot. You might recall it captured my attention so much on another occasion that I spent some time on it to liven it up a bit. I erroneously posted a draft of that work to you once, here is the finished product. I had no idea of the colour of the ground (brown/red), but it looked quite rich. Would be happy to fix it!
Danny,
I can't claim recognition, your great stories have led members of that site to visit this site to read them!
Danny,
I can't claim recognition, your great stories have led members of that site to visit this site to read them!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Belgians and Butter.
Hey, Danny. Hadn't changed when I was at Leeming way back when I was but a lad. They used to bring their Hercs in on exercise and load them with butter too. I think it was something to do with salted/unsalted and the inability to get one or the other in Belgium, although can't remember which they couldn't get. Wherever they went, the story goes, they would check the availability and then they would stock up on whichever one it was and fly it off to Belgium.
I well remember TeesSide Airport in my younger days. Dad and I used to visit the tower, Tuesday evenings, Thursday evenings and Saturday afternoon in pre John Henderson days. Len Taylor was Satco and then he went off to New Zealand and John H became Satco. I spent many a happy hour watching crew training from the tower and we got a few trips out of it as well with the likes of British Eagle, Tarom and Bavaria when they were converting onto BAC 1-11s and BKS were operating the London service with Airspeed Ambassadors and Later with Britannias. Dan Air were flying scheduled with C-47s and Autair tried a London Luton service with predictable results. They were usually late, spawning the slogan, "Time to spare, go Autair".
Eventually I ended up working as a Traffic Officer with BMA when they did the LHR shuttle with Viscount 800s but I left and went to Aberdeen when some really obnoxious oik from EMA came in and took over from Mike Finlay as Station Manager.
After a fairly short while in Aberdeen I joined the RAF and my first posting was Leeming, 76-78.
I well remember TeesSide Airport in my younger days. Dad and I used to visit the tower, Tuesday evenings, Thursday evenings and Saturday afternoon in pre John Henderson days. Len Taylor was Satco and then he went off to New Zealand and John H became Satco. I spent many a happy hour watching crew training from the tower and we got a few trips out of it as well with the likes of British Eagle, Tarom and Bavaria when they were converting onto BAC 1-11s and BKS were operating the London service with Airspeed Ambassadors and Later with Britannias. Dan Air were flying scheduled with C-47s and Autair tried a London Luton service with predictable results. They were usually late, spawning the slogan, "Time to spare, go Autair".
Eventually I ended up working as a Traffic Officer with BMA when they did the LHR shuttle with Viscount 800s but I left and went to Aberdeen when some really obnoxious oik from EMA came in and took over from Mike Finlay as Station Manager.
After a fairly short while in Aberdeen I joined the RAF and my first posting was Leeming, 76-78.
Last edited by Deepest Norfolk; 2nd Aug 2014 at 16:10.
Interesting that the engines of the two 'pranged' Harvards have parted from their mountings in precisely the same way. Another design feature?
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,807
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
Interesting that the engines of the two 'pranged' Harvards have parted from their mountings in precisely the same way. Another design feature?
