Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
Away for a few days so have just read, without interruption, Harrym's description of his Dakota training. Poetry of the air, Harry, thank you.
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Control locks etc etc
Chugalug2:- The four MK4 Hastings (VIP version, max passenger accommodation 12 persons) were, in order of production, WD500 and WJ324-6. In May '52 I signed for and collected 325 from the MU at Aston Down, listed as follows on its inventory file:
Airframe Hastings, 1
Engines Hercules, 4
Plugs sparking 112
Nothing else on the list at all, while the F700 recorded a total of four hours 25 minutes flying time – virtually straight off the factory floor. My crew & I subsequently delivered it to the Far East Comm Sqdn at Changi, where it passed the next three years. The other three spent their working lives with 24 Sqdn, although over time the Changi aircraft was rotated with the others and one went to Aden as the C in C's aircraft.
Danny42c:- Interesting to hear that there was a P&W 'family' sound, common to all their power plants. Supremely reliable units too, and capable of withstanding much abuse (example to follow in my GPU instalment).
Internally operated control locking systems of various types became general in later aircraft. The Hastings was one of the first, and although effective and simple to operate it could be deadly if the correct unlocking procedure was not followed, a fault later corrected by a much overdue mod. As for the Dakota water drains, yes it was a task normally carried out by ground crew as part of their pre-flight but one always checked this with them verbally; I did occasionally do it myself, but one then had to scrabble about looking for some wire-locking kit!
I have never had an explanation as to why the Dak was so prone to water in the fuel tanks, a problem I don't recall on other types; my theory is that it was down to the filler caps being flush with the wing top surface thus allowing penetration of rain water if the sealing ring was defective, as opposed to the more usual practice of them being buried beneath a hinged flap. There was one particular occasion on which we were delayed for 24 hours passing through Akyab, during which no less than 16 inches of rain was recorded; the subsequent pre-departure water drain check took a good 15 minutes before the drain cocks dispensed avgas rather than water, and a look at the filler caps showed the sealing rings were indeed badly perished. No spares were available, and later we had the un-nerving experience of one engine intermittently cutting out while flying in rain a few hundred feet above the sea while attempting to dodge the worst of the weather.
Ah yes, Loughborough station of fond memory! Now of course a thriving heritage rail centre, with the re-created Great Central about to reconnect to the main network with its projected bridge across the Midland main line.
Many thanks to you both, and all others, for your appreciative comments – it's a small return for the pleasure and enjoyment I have had from reading this thread over the years!
Airframe Hastings, 1
Engines Hercules, 4
Plugs sparking 112
Nothing else on the list at all, while the F700 recorded a total of four hours 25 minutes flying time – virtually straight off the factory floor. My crew & I subsequently delivered it to the Far East Comm Sqdn at Changi, where it passed the next three years. The other three spent their working lives with 24 Sqdn, although over time the Changi aircraft was rotated with the others and one went to Aden as the C in C's aircraft.
Danny42c:- Interesting to hear that there was a P&W 'family' sound, common to all their power plants. Supremely reliable units too, and capable of withstanding much abuse (example to follow in my GPU instalment).
Internally operated control locking systems of various types became general in later aircraft. The Hastings was one of the first, and although effective and simple to operate it could be deadly if the correct unlocking procedure was not followed, a fault later corrected by a much overdue mod. As for the Dakota water drains, yes it was a task normally carried out by ground crew as part of their pre-flight but one always checked this with them verbally; I did occasionally do it myself, but one then had to scrabble about looking for some wire-locking kit!
I have never had an explanation as to why the Dak was so prone to water in the fuel tanks, a problem I don't recall on other types; my theory is that it was down to the filler caps being flush with the wing top surface thus allowing penetration of rain water if the sealing ring was defective, as opposed to the more usual practice of them being buried beneath a hinged flap. There was one particular occasion on which we were delayed for 24 hours passing through Akyab, during which no less than 16 inches of rain was recorded; the subsequent pre-departure water drain check took a good 15 minutes before the drain cocks dispensed avgas rather than water, and a look at the filler caps showed the sealing rings were indeed badly perished. No spares were available, and later we had the un-nerving experience of one engine intermittently cutting out while flying in rain a few hundred feet above the sea while attempting to dodge the worst of the weather.
Ah yes, Loughborough station of fond memory! Now of course a thriving heritage rail centre, with the re-created Great Central about to reconnect to the main network with its projected bridge across the Midland main line.
Many thanks to you both, and all others, for your appreciative comments – it's a small return for the pleasure and enjoyment I have had from reading this thread over the years!
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"There's nowt so queer as Folk".
Chugalug,
Further to the first paragraph of your #5869 (p.294), I've just stumbled on a Post of mine to Fareastdriver which exactly parallels your sentiments expressed:
"Your #5505 [p.276 20.4.14.] reminds me that I used to give "Air Experience" flights to our troops from time to time on Sundays at Thornaby (always picking a sunny afternoon for the Station TM !), and sometimes in the Harvard.
It was strange to find that, even as late as the early'50s, that apart from the tiny minority who had wartime aircrew experience, and some who'd a bit of glider or light airctaft time, no more was generally known about the art of piloting than fifty years before. Many thought of it as a sort of "high wire" balancing act, in which only the consummate skill of the operator stood between safety and and an uncontrollable plunge to earth.
So when I offered the back-seat passenger the chance to "have a go", the response was often naked terror. Not for all the tea in China would they touch the stick, and begged me not to let go. I'd lift my hands in the air to show that the aircraft could happily look after itself - they were horrified. "Take it", I'd say, "there's no trouble that you can get into that I can't get out of in ten seconds" (I was sticking my neck out a bit there). It was no good. At the other end of the spectrum, some went at it with gusto, and I had to intervene before they had the wings off the poor old Tiger..... It takes all sorts".
Cneers, Danny.
Further to the first paragraph of your #5869 (p.294), I've just stumbled on a Post of mine to Fareastdriver which exactly parallels your sentiments expressed:
"Your #5505 [p.276 20.4.14.] reminds me that I used to give "Air Experience" flights to our troops from time to time on Sundays at Thornaby (always picking a sunny afternoon for the Station TM !), and sometimes in the Harvard.
It was strange to find that, even as late as the early'50s, that apart from the tiny minority who had wartime aircrew experience, and some who'd a bit of glider or light airctaft time, no more was generally known about the art of piloting than fifty years before. Many thought of it as a sort of "high wire" balancing act, in which only the consummate skill of the operator stood between safety and and an uncontrollable plunge to earth.
So when I offered the back-seat passenger the chance to "have a go", the response was often naked terror. Not for all the tea in China would they touch the stick, and begged me not to let go. I'd lift my hands in the air to show that the aircraft could happily look after itself - they were horrified. "Take it", I'd say, "there's no trouble that you can get into that I can't get out of in ten seconds" (I was sticking my neck out a bit there). It was no good. At the other end of the spectrum, some went at it with gusto, and I had to intervene before they had the wings off the poor old Tiger..... It takes all sorts".
Cneers, Danny.
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31SFTS Harvard
Hi
Thank you for listing the link to this very interesting link to this unit.
My father is P/O Cameron mentioned on the chapter on " Too many young lives are lost". He was posted there after gaining his Wings at 33SFTS at Carberry Manitoba on 21st April 1942. He actually said he was in the RCAF while there and worn a RCAF Blue uniform from then on. He often spoke of his time at Kingston and teaching the lads to "Fly under the hood". He returned to the UK in September 1942 and after FIS at Reading , he was posted to train EFTS pupils at Worcester and in June 1944 was sent to India to serve with 84 Squadron flying the Mosquito (and sadly bending one too) in June 1944. he was a Flight commander in was in the escort flight for the Japanese surrender "Dakota copy" and I have the doll "mascot" from this aircraft. He left Java and the RAF in March 1946 and only ever flew a aircraft again in the 1970's (again in Canada) this time a Glider. He enjoyed the stick time very much though. The only aircraft he ever really wanted to fly again was a Tiger Moth as he truly loved this little plane. He died on 24th December 2004 never managing to get in to another Tiger.
He was Flight lieutenant Ronald Gilchrist Cameron 123152 RAFVR; he was most proud to wear his 1918-62 GSM with A South East Asia clasp and tell people he got that medal not for war but for helping bring our POW and internees home after it was over. He saw Changi jail and was glad that too was over.
He never fired a shot in anger all through the war and was proud to have been able to make that claim.
Thanks again for this info, I never knew the book existed.
Cheers
Alastair
P.s. I too am interested in Wing Commander Mike Warren DFM as I too cannot find the listing of his award (or his commissions) maybe it is lost in the mists of time.
Thank you for listing the link to this very interesting link to this unit.
My father is P/O Cameron mentioned on the chapter on " Too many young lives are lost". He was posted there after gaining his Wings at 33SFTS at Carberry Manitoba on 21st April 1942. He actually said he was in the RCAF while there and worn a RCAF Blue uniform from then on. He often spoke of his time at Kingston and teaching the lads to "Fly under the hood". He returned to the UK in September 1942 and after FIS at Reading , he was posted to train EFTS pupils at Worcester and in June 1944 was sent to India to serve with 84 Squadron flying the Mosquito (and sadly bending one too) in June 1944. he was a Flight commander in was in the escort flight for the Japanese surrender "Dakota copy" and I have the doll "mascot" from this aircraft. He left Java and the RAF in March 1946 and only ever flew a aircraft again in the 1970's (again in Canada) this time a Glider. He enjoyed the stick time very much though. The only aircraft he ever really wanted to fly again was a Tiger Moth as he truly loved this little plane. He died on 24th December 2004 never managing to get in to another Tiger.
He was Flight lieutenant Ronald Gilchrist Cameron 123152 RAFVR; he was most proud to wear his 1918-62 GSM with A South East Asia clasp and tell people he got that medal not for war but for helping bring our POW and internees home after it was over. He saw Changi jail and was glad that too was over.
He never fired a shot in anger all through the war and was proud to have been able to make that claim.
Thanks again for this info, I never knew the book existed.
Cheers
Alastair
P.s. I too am interested in Wing Commander Mike Warren DFM as I too cannot find the listing of his award (or his commissions) maybe it is lost in the mists of time.
wee Ronny....
Was he nicknamed "Bunny"?
Just found a link to this old PPRuNe thread, but on Phantoms so may be the next generation on.... BBC programme "Skywatch" circa 1974 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
PS A DFM would have been awarded BEFORE his commission, if that gives you a possible time line....?
There is also something for a 619 Squadron W/C Warren, DFM, but I can't see any reference here.... https://www.facebook.com/619.Squadron.RAF.WW2
Hope one or the other have meaning for you!
Was he nicknamed "Bunny"?
Just found a link to this old PPRuNe thread, but on Phantoms so may be the next generation on.... BBC programme "Skywatch" circa 1974 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
PS A DFM would have been awarded BEFORE his commission, if that gives you a possible time line....?
There is also something for a 619 Squadron W/C Warren, DFM, but I can't see any reference here.... https://www.facebook.com/619.Squadron.RAF.WW2
Hope one or the other have meaning for you!
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Danny relates a very old story which will make the countenance ashen.
I now propose to make good my "threat" in my #5878 p.294, and tell a tale which has no connection with my "Pilgrim's Progress" other than that it connects with our recent reminiscences about control locks. It is taken (memory alone) from "Flight" magazine in the early postwar years. The Editor emphasised that it came from an "unimpeachable source" (his words), but that even so a pinch of salt might be in order. Some of our older members may remember the story.
Just after the war, the Douglas Aircraft Corporation, of Santa Monica, California, was riding the crest of a wave. Their hugely successful DC-3 (aka the much loved: "Dak", or "Gooney Bird", depending on which side of the Pond you were), had been superseded by their C-54 "Skymaster", and all the world's airlines were scrambling to buy it (except ours, as we had no dollars left, after paying for the war 'n all).
It was a nosewheel four-engined low wing airliner (50-odd passengers), at a time when we were still building obsolescent tailwheelers (and would continue to do so for some time to come). And it had internal mechanical locks, applied on the Flight Deck, for all control cables. It is good practice to ensure that these are released before attempting flight, and a Bad Idea to tinker with them after you have achieved it.
NOW READ ON FOR THE "FLIGHT" STORY.
This particular "Skymaster" was on a scheduled flight somewhere in the cloudless skies over the Southwestern States. There were three "up front", the Captain, First Officer and a Training Captain in the "jump seat" immediately behind them. The Captain was having his Annual Competency Check for his licence, and this chap was the Check Rider. They can't have been more than 10,000 ft up, for the aircraft was not pressurised.
The Check Rider was well satisfied with his examinee, for he was doing fine. He was conducting the flight strictly in accordance with all the Company's Regulations. The Check Rider had "ticked all the boxes". He had nothing else to do and was feeling bored. The Devil finds work for idle hands such as his, and he sent an evil imp to whisper in the Check Rider's ear. Why not present the Captain with an Unusual Situation. and see how he got on ?
Behind him, in easy reach, was the Control Lock for the elevators. In those days, control runs were very simple. There was no power-assistance. Take the rudder for instance. This was connected to the rudder bar on the Flight Deck by "two pieces of string", like a rowing boat on a Park lake (and all the control runs were much the same). The locks simply clamped the cables and rods of the linkages (which were in fact a bit better than "string") so that they could not move. Of course these locks should never be touched in flight.
Nevertheless the Check Rider thought it a Good Idea. Surreptitiously he locked the elevators.
As the lock simply held the elevators where they already were, there was no immediate effect. Then the aircraft started very slowly to climb, though it was on automatic pilot. The Captain, who was the "handling pilot" for this sector, trimmed slightly nose-down. This, of course, had no effect as the control runs were clamped. So he trimmed a bit more. And then a bit more still.
The Check Rider watched, fascinated. How long would it take for the penny to drop ? Why didn't he try to move the yoke fore-and-aft (which would be locked too, but at least he should then guess what had happened). At last the Captain had almost full nose-down trim on. The Check Rider decided that this joke had gone on quite long enough. He unlocked the elevators !
The full nose trim now took control. The aircraft savagely "bunted" (a "bunt" is an inverted loop). The autopilot gave up in despair. Check Rider and Captain were thrown out of their seats, the latter onto the yoke (which did not help matters) and both then onto the panels and screen, then rolled onto the cabin roof as the thing turned over. In their frantic scrabbling, someone hit two feathering buttons on one side, shutting down two engines.
There was a Company rule that one pilot must always be strapped-in. They were doing everything "by the book". Miraculously, the strapped in F/O saved the aircraft (probably aided by the two dead engines, which helped him to roll out). With a thousand feet left he got back to level flight, and unfeathered the two engines. Captain and Check Rider were both battered and bruised, but still alive. ( A veil must be drawn over the scene in the passenger cabin !) They made a bee-line for the nearest airfield and landed. People staggered down the steps and kissed the ground (wouldn't you ?)
End of story, as far as "Flight" told it. But the questions crowd in. How did the wings stay on ? - they must have been stressed far beyond any designer's worst imagination. And what about the passengers ? How did they manage to keep them quiet - and the story out of the papers ?
That's all (as "Flight" told it). Believe it or not as you will. I keep an open mind.
Goodnight, all,
Danny42C.
Blimey !
Just after the war, the Douglas Aircraft Corporation, of Santa Monica, California, was riding the crest of a wave. Their hugely successful DC-3 (aka the much loved: "Dak", or "Gooney Bird", depending on which side of the Pond you were), had been superseded by their C-54 "Skymaster", and all the world's airlines were scrambling to buy it (except ours, as we had no dollars left, after paying for the war 'n all).
It was a nosewheel four-engined low wing airliner (50-odd passengers), at a time when we were still building obsolescent tailwheelers (and would continue to do so for some time to come). And it had internal mechanical locks, applied on the Flight Deck, for all control cables. It is good practice to ensure that these are released before attempting flight, and a Bad Idea to tinker with them after you have achieved it.
NOW READ ON FOR THE "FLIGHT" STORY.
This particular "Skymaster" was on a scheduled flight somewhere in the cloudless skies over the Southwestern States. There were three "up front", the Captain, First Officer and a Training Captain in the "jump seat" immediately behind them. The Captain was having his Annual Competency Check for his licence, and this chap was the Check Rider. They can't have been more than 10,000 ft up, for the aircraft was not pressurised.
The Check Rider was well satisfied with his examinee, for he was doing fine. He was conducting the flight strictly in accordance with all the Company's Regulations. The Check Rider had "ticked all the boxes". He had nothing else to do and was feeling bored. The Devil finds work for idle hands such as his, and he sent an evil imp to whisper in the Check Rider's ear. Why not present the Captain with an Unusual Situation. and see how he got on ?
Behind him, in easy reach, was the Control Lock for the elevators. In those days, control runs were very simple. There was no power-assistance. Take the rudder for instance. This was connected to the rudder bar on the Flight Deck by "two pieces of string", like a rowing boat on a Park lake (and all the control runs were much the same). The locks simply clamped the cables and rods of the linkages (which were in fact a bit better than "string") so that they could not move. Of course these locks should never be touched in flight.
Nevertheless the Check Rider thought it a Good Idea. Surreptitiously he locked the elevators.
As the lock simply held the elevators where they already were, there was no immediate effect. Then the aircraft started very slowly to climb, though it was on automatic pilot. The Captain, who was the "handling pilot" for this sector, trimmed slightly nose-down. This, of course, had no effect as the control runs were clamped. So he trimmed a bit more. And then a bit more still.The Check Rider watched, fascinated. How long would it take for the penny to drop ? Why didn't he try to move the yoke fore-and-aft (which would be locked too, but at least he should then guess what had happened). At last the Captain had almost full nose-down trim on. The Check Rider decided that this joke had gone on quite long enough. He unlocked the elevators !
The full nose trim now took control. The aircraft savagely "bunted" (a "bunt" is an inverted loop). The autopilot gave up in despair. Check Rider and Captain were thrown out of their seats, the latter onto the yoke (which did not help matters) and both then onto the panels and screen, then rolled onto the cabin roof as the thing turned over. In their frantic scrabbling, someone hit two feathering buttons on one side, shutting down two engines.
There was a Company rule that one pilot must always be strapped-in. They were doing everything "by the book". Miraculously, the strapped in F/O saved the aircraft (probably aided by the two dead engines, which helped him to roll out). With a thousand feet left he got back to level flight, and unfeathered the two engines. Captain and Check Rider were both battered and bruised, but still alive. ( A veil must be drawn over the scene in the passenger cabin !) They made a bee-line for the nearest airfield and landed. People staggered down the steps and kissed the ground (wouldn't you ?)
End of story, as far as "Flight" told it. But the questions crowd in. How did the wings stay on ? - they must have been stressed far beyond any designer's worst imagination. And what about the passengers ? How did they manage to keep them quiet - and the story out of the papers ?
That's all (as "Flight" told it). Believe it or not as you will. I keep an open mind.
Goodnight, all,
Danny42C.
Blimey !
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New Boy in Town !
Wee Ronny,
First, Congratulations on your "First Solo", and a hearty "welcome aboard" from this our noble crowd who gather in this "Crewroom in Cyberspace" (and natter therein to their heart's content).
If your Dad had joined 84 Sqdn. in June '44, it would be at a time that they'd just taken delivery of their Mossies (which had only just replaced the Vultee Vengeances they got in late '42), and before that had been on Blenheims in UK, doing shipping strikes in the Channel (and taking a fair hammering) before coming out to India in early '42).
He would have arrived just when the Mosquitoes started falling apart (the heat, humidity and monsoon rain having dissolved the glue which held them together), to the consternation of the bystanders and the dismay of the aircrew when this happened in the air. Did your Dad ever mention this ?....D.
Icare9,
Our Wing Commander Mike Warren seems a bit of a mystery man, the BBC Tees reporter gives his age as 88, which would make his age 19 when stumps were drawn on VE day. I know we had a lot of young promotions during the war, but even Guy Gibson had to wait till 23 to make Wing Commander....D.
Cheers to you both, Danny.
First, Congratulations on your "First Solo", and a hearty "welcome aboard" from this our noble crowd who gather in this "Crewroom in Cyberspace" (and natter therein to their heart's content).
If your Dad had joined 84 Sqdn. in June '44, it would be at a time that they'd just taken delivery of their Mossies (which had only just replaced the Vultee Vengeances they got in late '42), and before that had been on Blenheims in UK, doing shipping strikes in the Channel (and taking a fair hammering) before coming out to India in early '42).
He would have arrived just when the Mosquitoes started falling apart (the heat, humidity and monsoon rain having dissolved the glue which held them together), to the consternation of the bystanders and the dismay of the aircrew when this happened in the air. Did your Dad ever mention this ?....D.
Icare9,
Our Wing Commander Mike Warren seems a bit of a mystery man, the BBC Tees reporter gives his age as 88, which would make his age 19 when stumps were drawn on VE day. I know we had a lot of young promotions during the war, but even Guy Gibson had to wait till 23 to make Wing Commander....D.
Cheers to you both, Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 30th Jun 2014 at 15:42. Reason: Error
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Locked controls
Danny42C:- I see no reason why your account of the DC4 control lock incident should not be true, stranger things have happened. However I would take mild issue with the statement 'As the lock simply held the elevators where they already were, there was no immediate effect' following the application of nose down trim. The trim tabs would have moved in the opposite direction to that hoped for on the part of the elevators and so (given that their attendant control surfaces were now fixed) would have acted as mini elevators in their own right and thus increased the tendency to climb. This can be illustrated by another incident that was well-known at the time, when a Dakota took off with the elevator gust locks in place (or one of them anyway, the effect would have been the same for one or both).
The pilot, having opted (correctly) for a wheels-up landing, achieved his aim by judicious use of throttle combined with using the trim wheel as described above for some marginal control of pitch; but unfortunately the port prop sheared off on touch down, and penetrated the cockpit with fatal consequences. Although this accident had occurred in the UK, it was common knowledge on 194 Sqdn at the time of my arrival there in July '45 as the highly experienced pilot had been a fairly recent squadron commander and was greatly liked and respected – a tragic business.
The pilot, having opted (correctly) for a wheels-up landing, achieved his aim by judicious use of throttle combined with using the trim wheel as described above for some marginal control of pitch; but unfortunately the port prop sheared off on touch down, and penetrated the cockpit with fatal consequences. Although this accident had occurred in the UK, it was common knowledge on 194 Sqdn at the time of my arrival there in July '45 as the highly experienced pilot had been a fairly recent squadron commander and was greatly liked and respected – a tragic business.
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Thanks for the welcome
Hi
Thanks for your good wishes on my "first Solo" and IO didn't even take 8 hours to get there.
My dad flew the Vengeance with 84 Squadron a quite few times as the Mosquito's were delayed more than once. They did have issues but luckily my dad never had any with his serial RF699 it made it through a monsoon on the way back from Saigon in Oct 1945. when he landed the squadron Engineer pushed a pencil through the wing leading edge. This aircraft ended up as a "Christmas Tree" as that was all it was fit for. my dad said he always believed "his mossie" would always get him home and it did. If anyone reads the "Scorpion sting" by Don Neate can read all about the issues with the Mosquito with 84 squadron. (and my dad's time with them)
My dad broke his arm paying football and was off flying for 12 weeks so he never really was exposed to any possible problems with them.
84 Squadron is the only RAF unit not have been stationed in the UK since 1917 -18. They were in iraq then the Western Desert till 1941 and went to the Far East and suffered huge losses in the retreat to Java.
I have never heard Mike Warren called Bunny or any mention by him on Lightnings in the 1970's. I have spoken to the owner of the 619 squadron facebook site and he too can't find any trace of him in 619 ORB. So he is still a mystery folks. He does have a big group of medals and awards but even these don't help us much as they seem a bit odd. The little badge on his Jacket is the UK Veterans lapel badge not a Squadron badge. He has the Aircrew Europe & Italy Stars with a Defence medal. there is a year to 18 months worth of service alone after he joined a unit. I can see an MID on his War Medal too, so that must be listed in the London Gazette. He also has a Territorial Decoration & an Air Efficiency Medal which can account for over 28 years of service in the TA and the RAuxAF. I can't find him on the RAF Lists but Mike could be a middle name or even a alias of sorts, so there no easy answers to be found.
maybe time will tell.
Cheers
Alastair
Thanks for your good wishes on my "first Solo" and IO didn't even take 8 hours to get there.
My dad flew the Vengeance with 84 Squadron a quite few times as the Mosquito's were delayed more than once. They did have issues but luckily my dad never had any with his serial RF699 it made it through a monsoon on the way back from Saigon in Oct 1945. when he landed the squadron Engineer pushed a pencil through the wing leading edge. This aircraft ended up as a "Christmas Tree" as that was all it was fit for. my dad said he always believed "his mossie" would always get him home and it did. If anyone reads the "Scorpion sting" by Don Neate can read all about the issues with the Mosquito with 84 squadron. (and my dad's time with them)
My dad broke his arm paying football and was off flying for 12 weeks so he never really was exposed to any possible problems with them.
84 Squadron is the only RAF unit not have been stationed in the UK since 1917 -18. They were in iraq then the Western Desert till 1941 and went to the Far East and suffered huge losses in the retreat to Java.
I have never heard Mike Warren called Bunny or any mention by him on Lightnings in the 1970's. I have spoken to the owner of the 619 squadron facebook site and he too can't find any trace of him in 619 ORB. So he is still a mystery folks. He does have a big group of medals and awards but even these don't help us much as they seem a bit odd. The little badge on his Jacket is the UK Veterans lapel badge not a Squadron badge. He has the Aircrew Europe & Italy Stars with a Defence medal. there is a year to 18 months worth of service alone after he joined a unit. I can see an MID on his War Medal too, so that must be listed in the London Gazette. He also has a Territorial Decoration & an Air Efficiency Medal which can account for over 28 years of service in the TA and the RAuxAF. I can't find him on the RAF Lists but Mike could be a middle name or even a alias of sorts, so there no easy answers to be found.
maybe time will tell.
Cheers
Alastair
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harrym,
Tragic, as you say, after his having handled the situation so well. I would never have thought that, with such a small area (relative to the elevators), the trims could be used to such good effect (just shows, there's always something new to learn !)
I very vaguely remember, many years ago, a similar case in the US, where a big three-engined type (DC-10 or Tristar - don't think a 727) lost elevator control for some reason. The pilot managed to control Angle of Attack and airspeed by juggling the thrust of the two underwing engines against that of the tail. IIRC, he ended up with a very bent aircraft, but 2-300 crew and passengers all alive and kicking. Curiously, it seems that he had practised doing this very thing on the simulator (premonition ?)
The case aroused no little indignation, as the President of his Company (who cannot have been a pilot), whom you would expect to have lauded and richly rewarded him for saving the firm from very bad PR (and his Insurers from a massive payout, which would have been reflected in the premiums), instead belittled the affair, saying (in effect) "It's only what he's paid to do, anyway". There will be PPRuNers who remember this....D.
Wee Ronny,
Your: "My dad flew the Vengeance with 84 Squadron a quite few times as the Mosquito's were delayed more than once". This made me "sit up !" I thought all the Vengeance had been withdrawn from the RAF Squadrons (45,82,84 and 110) in April or May'44 at the latest, as the Mosquito (Mk.6 ?) was coming in (with all new crews, of course). Your Dad's old (Vengeance) Boss was S/Ldr A.M.Gill, but I can't remember who the new one was. (Could he have been the unlucky one killed by one of the first "wooden wonders" to display its new parlour trick ?)
Later that year I went down to Yelahanka to reconvert the Mossie Crews back on to VV but on arrival found I was out of a job (a better glue had been found and it was "As you Were"!) But 84 Sqdn were still there, for I flew their Harvard FT193 (Auth: F/L Milnes) in December.
Did your Dad say anything about the Vengeance (in particular) or anything else in those times ? If he was in Yelahanka Nov-Dec '44, we would have been in the same Mess (but the name doesn't ring a bell). So many names, so long ago !
The mystery of W/Cdr Warren deepens (the shade of Baron Munchausen floats in the air). Can nobody get a "fix" on him ? (Even with no initials, there can't be all that many Wing Commander Warrens (GD Pilots) in the later columns of the '44 List)....D.
Cheers, both, Danny.
Tragic, as you say, after his having handled the situation so well. I would never have thought that, with such a small area (relative to the elevators), the trims could be used to such good effect (just shows, there's always something new to learn !)
I very vaguely remember, many years ago, a similar case in the US, where a big three-engined type (DC-10 or Tristar - don't think a 727) lost elevator control for some reason. The pilot managed to control Angle of Attack and airspeed by juggling the thrust of the two underwing engines against that of the tail. IIRC, he ended up with a very bent aircraft, but 2-300 crew and passengers all alive and kicking. Curiously, it seems that he had practised doing this very thing on the simulator (premonition ?)
The case aroused no little indignation, as the President of his Company (who cannot have been a pilot), whom you would expect to have lauded and richly rewarded him for saving the firm from very bad PR (and his Insurers from a massive payout, which would have been reflected in the premiums), instead belittled the affair, saying (in effect) "It's only what he's paid to do, anyway". There will be PPRuNers who remember this....D.
Wee Ronny,
Your: "My dad flew the Vengeance with 84 Squadron a quite few times as the Mosquito's were delayed more than once". This made me "sit up !" I thought all the Vengeance had been withdrawn from the RAF Squadrons (45,82,84 and 110) in April or May'44 at the latest, as the Mosquito (Mk.6 ?) was coming in (with all new crews, of course). Your Dad's old (Vengeance) Boss was S/Ldr A.M.Gill, but I can't remember who the new one was. (Could he have been the unlucky one killed by one of the first "wooden wonders" to display its new parlour trick ?)
Later that year I went down to Yelahanka to reconvert the Mossie Crews back on to VV but on arrival found I was out of a job (a better glue had been found and it was "As you Were"!) But 84 Sqdn were still there, for I flew their Harvard FT193 (Auth: F/L Milnes) in December.
Did your Dad say anything about the Vengeance (in particular) or anything else in those times ? If he was in Yelahanka Nov-Dec '44, we would have been in the same Mess (but the name doesn't ring a bell). So many names, so long ago !
The mystery of W/Cdr Warren deepens (the shade of Baron Munchausen floats in the air). Can nobody get a "fix" on him ? (Even with no initials, there can't be all that many Wing Commander Warrens (GD Pilots) in the later columns of the '44 List)....D.
Cheers, both, Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 1st Jul 2014 at 19:21. Reason: Error.
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Ronald Cameron path to Pilot's brevet and beyond
Hi
To get thi thread back on to the title.
AC2 R G Cameron 1343390
Enlisted (deferred service) 12-3-40
Signed for Aircrew Training 26-11-40
Receiving wing(Lords Cricket Ground) 7-7-41
4ITW Paignton 19-7-41
21 EFTS Booker 6-9-41
ACDC Heaton Park 6-12-41
HMTS Bergensfjiord 22-12-41
31 RD Moncton Canada 2-1-42
33 SFTS Carberry Canada 6-1-42
Commissioned 21-4-42 Pilot Officer 123152
Pilots Brevet award 24-4-42
31 RD Muncton 5-5-42
31SFTS Kingston Canada 18-5-42
31 RD Muncton 14-8-42
HMTS Awatea 21-8-42
No 1Y dept Halifax Canada 24-8-42 Due to Ship hitting another in the convoy.
HMT Queen Mary New York 4-9-42 ( I've still got a coat hangar off this ship)
3 PRC Bournemouth 12-9-42
Married 21-9-42
7 AFU Peterborough 29-9-42 He hated the place!!!!! lousy CO too
10 FIS Reading 29-10-42
2 EFTS Worcester 17-1-43
197 Sqdn Tangmere 19-9-43 Just Visiting
2 EFTS Worcester 24-9-43
3 AFU South Cerney 12-4-44
1525 BATF Docking 17-5-44
3 AFU 23-5-44
5 PDC Blackpool 5-7-44
HMTS Strathnaver 17-7-44
BRD Worli Bombay India 16-8-44
84 Squadron Yelahanka 28-10-44 (mosquito's arrived in the Feb 45)
" Charra 24-4-45
" St Thomas Mount 22-6-45
" Baigachi 1-9-45 (awarded Burma Star for 1 days service)
" Hmawbi Burma 12-9-45
" Singapore 13-9-45
" Saigon 21-10-45 to 23-10-45 (Rtn Singapore)
" Batavia Java 11-1-46 (LST3035)
60 PTC Singapore 14-2-46
HMTS Largs Bay 15-2-46
BRD Bombay 22-2-46
104 PDC Cannock 15-4-46
So you can see his brevet took him just short of 10 months to achieve but his Flying training took over 18 months before he was allocated a full role as an Instructor.
I would say that enlistment to Combat flying would be similar for the brevet but most likely even longer to get to a squadron. surely AFU -OTU - HCU - LSF(maybe) then Squadron. So even 18 months would be a good run through the training; so a January 1943 enlistment (at 17 for example and being taken straight away) would give you a posting to a squadron in June 1944. Then over 100 ops before May 1945 would be some going for a 19 year old, for example.
Any more thoughts lads?
Cheers
Alastair
To get thi thread back on to the title.
AC2 R G Cameron 1343390
Enlisted (deferred service) 12-3-40
Signed for Aircrew Training 26-11-40
Receiving wing(Lords Cricket Ground) 7-7-41
4ITW Paignton 19-7-41
21 EFTS Booker 6-9-41
ACDC Heaton Park 6-12-41
HMTS Bergensfjiord 22-12-41
31 RD Moncton Canada 2-1-42
33 SFTS Carberry Canada 6-1-42
Commissioned 21-4-42 Pilot Officer 123152
Pilots Brevet award 24-4-42
31 RD Muncton 5-5-42
31SFTS Kingston Canada 18-5-42
31 RD Muncton 14-8-42
HMTS Awatea 21-8-42
No 1Y dept Halifax Canada 24-8-42 Due to Ship hitting another in the convoy.
HMT Queen Mary New York 4-9-42 ( I've still got a coat hangar off this ship)
3 PRC Bournemouth 12-9-42
Married 21-9-42
7 AFU Peterborough 29-9-42 He hated the place!!!!! lousy CO too
10 FIS Reading 29-10-42
2 EFTS Worcester 17-1-43
197 Sqdn Tangmere 19-9-43 Just Visiting
2 EFTS Worcester 24-9-43
3 AFU South Cerney 12-4-44
1525 BATF Docking 17-5-44
3 AFU 23-5-44
5 PDC Blackpool 5-7-44
HMTS Strathnaver 17-7-44
BRD Worli Bombay India 16-8-44
84 Squadron Yelahanka 28-10-44 (mosquito's arrived in the Feb 45)
" Charra 24-4-45
" St Thomas Mount 22-6-45
" Baigachi 1-9-45 (awarded Burma Star for 1 days service)
" Hmawbi Burma 12-9-45
" Singapore 13-9-45
" Saigon 21-10-45 to 23-10-45 (Rtn Singapore)
" Batavia Java 11-1-46 (LST3035)
60 PTC Singapore 14-2-46
HMTS Largs Bay 15-2-46
BRD Bombay 22-2-46
104 PDC Cannock 15-4-46
So you can see his brevet took him just short of 10 months to achieve but his Flying training took over 18 months before he was allocated a full role as an Instructor.
I would say that enlistment to Combat flying would be similar for the brevet but most likely even longer to get to a squadron. surely AFU -OTU - HCU - LSF(maybe) then Squadron. So even 18 months would be a good run through the training; so a January 1943 enlistment (at 17 for example and being taken straight away) would give you a posting to a squadron in June 1944. Then over 100 ops before May 1945 would be some going for a 19 year old, for example.
Any more thoughts lads?
Cheers
Alastair
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Vengeance with 84 squadron
Hi Danny
As you can see I have listed his postings etc for you all to see. Yes I got some wrong but these are now off his log books so are as accurate as I can make them now, sorry for the mistakes.
Dad didn't have Arthur Gill as his CO then but they spoke on may occasions in the 1990's. W/C Constable Maxwell DSO DFC was Dad's main CO (& he did not like him much though); he liked John Quinton (DFC & GC) his Navigator a lot as he was a great bloke.
He was in Yelahanka from Oct 44 to March 45. Who were you with then? After Arthur Gill it was Plumb, Aitkens & Jay as the unit CO's.
My dad flew Vengeance No AN764 3 times and Vengeance AN780 3 times in Dec 44. He said it was like flying a bus, he also said you felt you could go for a walk in the cockpit. (He only was Flying the Oxford and Harvard in Nov 44). he flew with f/Lt Milnes on 11 Dec 44 in Harvard FT193.
His first Mossie flight was 26 Feb 45 in HR638 and his second later that day wrote this A/C off. Log book says "Back Broken-Port wing off AND LOTS MORE" it is classed as Carelessness due to incorrect tank drill so no fuel no fly really. sound like a theory on another great fliers loss anyone?
He later saved HR583 ( Mar45) after the Port constant Speed Unit failed (no oil) landed on one engine. No brownie points as he and G McMahon refused order to bail out!!!!! Drat no caterpillar for him.
He and W/o George Mc Mahon (Nav) did a Beat Up of Batavia on 29 Sept 1945 enjoyed that bit.
Dad was Acting CO in Nov & Dec 45 when Constable Maxwell was in Java but there is no record of any more flying for him after the Saigon trip.
He was shot at by the Pre VC in Vietnam at the Airfield on Oct 15th he was waiting with his pistol with five shots for them and the last for you know who. He didn't like the idea of being a prisoner of the VC after seeing Changi etc, he said. He never fired the S & W at all though; as the RAF regiment sorted the raiders out. so that is why I am here I suppose.
Hope this help you out on my dad and what he did!!!
Cheers
Al
As you can see I have listed his postings etc for you all to see. Yes I got some wrong but these are now off his log books so are as accurate as I can make them now, sorry for the mistakes.
Dad didn't have Arthur Gill as his CO then but they spoke on may occasions in the 1990's. W/C Constable Maxwell DSO DFC was Dad's main CO (& he did not like him much though); he liked John Quinton (DFC & GC) his Navigator a lot as he was a great bloke.
He was in Yelahanka from Oct 44 to March 45. Who were you with then? After Arthur Gill it was Plumb, Aitkens & Jay as the unit CO's.
My dad flew Vengeance No AN764 3 times and Vengeance AN780 3 times in Dec 44. He said it was like flying a bus, he also said you felt you could go for a walk in the cockpit. (He only was Flying the Oxford and Harvard in Nov 44). he flew with f/Lt Milnes on 11 Dec 44 in Harvard FT193.
His first Mossie flight was 26 Feb 45 in HR638 and his second later that day wrote this A/C off. Log book says "Back Broken-Port wing off AND LOTS MORE" it is classed as Carelessness due to incorrect tank drill so no fuel no fly really. sound like a theory on another great fliers loss anyone?
He later saved HR583 ( Mar45) after the Port constant Speed Unit failed (no oil) landed on one engine. No brownie points as he and G McMahon refused order to bail out!!!!! Drat no caterpillar for him.
He and W/o George Mc Mahon (Nav) did a Beat Up of Batavia on 29 Sept 1945 enjoyed that bit.
Dad was Acting CO in Nov & Dec 45 when Constable Maxwell was in Java but there is no record of any more flying for him after the Saigon trip.
He was shot at by the Pre VC in Vietnam at the Airfield on Oct 15th he was waiting with his pistol with five shots for them and the last for you know who. He didn't like the idea of being a prisoner of the VC after seeing Changi etc, he said. He never fired the S & W at all though; as the RAF regiment sorted the raiders out. so that is why I am here I suppose.
Hope this help you out on my dad and what he did!!!
Cheers
Al
Last edited by Wee Ronny; 3rd Jul 2014 at 16:25. Reason: text missing
Great Pilots sometimes think alike!
Thanks Flash,
You could well be right - you tell of the first DC10 cargo door blow out - AA 96 Detroit June 12 1972 - but that one stayed in one piece after landing and only had 56 pax on board. Danny refers to "a very bent aircraft and 2-300 pax". I hope that he won't take offence if I said that he might be mixing up memories from both incidents - after all both sets of pilots used similar techniques to control the problem, it was just that the Sioux City guys had no, zero, zilch, hydraulics at all, and the outcome of landing with no flaps/slats at high speed led to the inevitable outcome.
Ian B-B
You could well be right - you tell of the first DC10 cargo door blow out - AA 96 Detroit June 12 1972 - but that one stayed in one piece after landing and only had 56 pax on board. Danny refers to "a very bent aircraft and 2-300 pax". I hope that he won't take offence if I said that he might be mixing up memories from both incidents - after all both sets of pilots used similar techniques to control the problem, it was just that the Sioux City guys had no, zero, zilch, hydraulics at all, and the outcome of landing with no flaps/slats at high speed led to the inevitable outcome.
Ian B-B
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Carlstrom Field photo update
PS, After a brief Google, this should show the latest satellite image of Carlstrom, with a brief history of the site since your time. I believe that the juvenile correctional facility has now closed as well
I shot these images on June 30 2014:
Click to enlarge...
Click to enlarge...
Remnants of the original WW1-era base are still clearly visible too (west is "up")
Click to enlarge...
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Wee Ronny,
Back to your #5893 (think you've missed a "not" from your second para): Btw, I agree with your Dad's assessment of the VV (except that "Flying Bus" was a bit too generous - "Flying Brick" was more like it !)
Given that the VVs were there, what did 84 do with them ? Did the old brigade do any practice dives (to keep their hands in in case they were wanted again ? - as it was thought probable for a while, the Mosquito problem remaining unsolved and maybe would be found insoluble). Or were they just swanning around ? In which case, why not offer me one to play with ?
That of course was the reason I was there at all. It starts to make sense now. 84 would be the first to be "re-converted" from Mossie back to VV (in which case your Dad might have had me as his Instructor !) So they'd let them keep a few of their old VVs to be the "School" aircraft.
As I've related, the boffins had just had their "Eureka !" moment when I arrived; it was a case of: "That was Yesterday - it's All been Changed". I was a Supernumarary (probably on 84 Sqdn strength), so I could fly FT193 (clearly the Squadron "hack"). They got rid of me on New Year's Day to 1580 Calibration Flight at Cholaveram.....D.
Ian BB and Flash2001,
(From Wiki) Seems you're both right ! (although the cases are quite dissimilar)....D.
Cheers to you all, Danny.
Back to your #5893 (think you've missed a "not" from your second para): Btw, I agree with your Dad's assessment of the VV (except that "Flying Bus" was a bit too generous - "Flying Brick" was more like it !)
Given that the VVs were there, what did 84 do with them ? Did the old brigade do any practice dives (to keep their hands in in case they were wanted again ? - as it was thought probable for a while, the Mosquito problem remaining unsolved and maybe would be found insoluble). Or were they just swanning around ? In which case, why not offer me one to play with ?
That of course was the reason I was there at all. It starts to make sense now. 84 would be the first to be "re-converted" from Mossie back to VV (in which case your Dad might have had me as his Instructor !) So they'd let them keep a few of their old VVs to be the "School" aircraft.
As I've related, the boffins had just had their "Eureka !" moment when I arrived; it was a case of: "That was Yesterday - it's All been Changed". I was a Supernumarary (probably on 84 Sqdn strength), so I could fly FT193 (clearly the Squadron "hack"). They got rid of me on New Year's Day to 1580 Calibration Flight at Cholaveram.....D.
Ian BB and Flash2001,
(From Wiki) Seems you're both right ! (although the cases are quite dissimilar)....D.
Cheers to you all, Danny.
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Carlstrom Field, Arcadia, Fla.
AeroPhoto,
First, Welcome aboard ! And Congratulations on your initial Post on this the best Thread on PPRuNe, and thank you for the professional pictures of the Carlstrom camp. I was an Aviation Cadet in Class 42C at Carlstrom from September - October '41, doing my Primary School under the Army Air Corps "Arnold" Scheme for RAF trainees.
Apart from the circular outline, everything has changed since my day, but I note that our swimming pool (in the exact centre of the circle) has been filled in (but you can still see a faint outline). The story of my time there should be in around Page 116 of this Thread.
Cheers, Danny.
EDIT: Page 117 !
First, Welcome aboard ! And Congratulations on your initial Post on this the best Thread on PPRuNe, and thank you for the professional pictures of the Carlstrom camp. I was an Aviation Cadet in Class 42C at Carlstrom from September - October '41, doing my Primary School under the Army Air Corps "Arnold" Scheme for RAF trainees.
Apart from the circular outline, everything has changed since my day, but I note that our swimming pool (in the exact centre of the circle) has been filled in (but you can still see a faint outline). The story of my time there should be in around Page 116 of this Thread.
Cheers, Danny.
EDIT: Page 117 !
Last edited by Danny42C; 2nd Jul 2014 at 22:47. Reason: Add Text
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84 Squadron Vengeance details
Hi Danny (and anyone else interested)
First, the "not" is missing as you say, you spotted the deliberate mistake, well done.
The details I have here, for the time awaiting the Mosquito, are as follows: -
The unit had 4 X Vengeance III and 2 x Vengence II and a Harvard (accordng to Don Neate's book) the Mk II's must be AN780 & AN764 that my Dad flew, as they are shown as this mark in his log. The other pilots with my Dad in the Vengeance's were F/O Paterson, F/O Downer and F/O Poole he also lists F/Lt Milnes and F/O Downer as pilots in the Harvard with him (FT193). In the Decemeber (8th to 18th) he did an Engine test, Familarisation flight, Solo, Practice General Flying and 3 dives in the VV. He didn't fly at all in the January 1945. The Mossies arrived in mid Feb 45 so the VV must have left by then. It seems that the VV III's in MU store had problems with their fuel tanks and they leaked very badly (Not inhibited correctly it seems) and not enough replacement tanks to swap them all out. Don Neate's book says that the VV flying was "Local" (and nothing else) so it must have been similar to what my Dad did above. Two flights of VV from the Squadron were to go back to the front on 30th Dec but this was quickly cancelled as the Mossie's were coming earlier than was expected.
I have a list of the all the VV's ( & Mossie's) that the squadron used if anyone wants that info.
Hope this helps.
If you ever want to chat, please pm your number and I will call you.
Cheers
Al
First, the "not" is missing as you say, you spotted the deliberate mistake, well done.
The details I have here, for the time awaiting the Mosquito, are as follows: -
The unit had 4 X Vengeance III and 2 x Vengence II and a Harvard (accordng to Don Neate's book) the Mk II's must be AN780 & AN764 that my Dad flew, as they are shown as this mark in his log. The other pilots with my Dad in the Vengeance's were F/O Paterson, F/O Downer and F/O Poole he also lists F/Lt Milnes and F/O Downer as pilots in the Harvard with him (FT193). In the Decemeber (8th to 18th) he did an Engine test, Familarisation flight, Solo, Practice General Flying and 3 dives in the VV. He didn't fly at all in the January 1945. The Mossies arrived in mid Feb 45 so the VV must have left by then. It seems that the VV III's in MU store had problems with their fuel tanks and they leaked very badly (Not inhibited correctly it seems) and not enough replacement tanks to swap them all out. Don Neate's book says that the VV flying was "Local" (and nothing else) so it must have been similar to what my Dad did above. Two flights of VV from the Squadron were to go back to the front on 30th Dec but this was quickly cancelled as the Mossie's were coming earlier than was expected.
I have a list of the all the VV's ( & Mossie's) that the squadron used if anyone wants that info.
Hope this helps.
If you ever want to chat, please pm your number and I will call you.
Cheers
Al
Last edited by Wee Ronny; 3rd Jul 2014 at 16:27. Reason: additional info
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What might have been....
Wee Ronny,
Touché - I misread my "Vengeance" (Peter C. Smith), and there are occasional misdesciptions in my log, too (but mostly I got it right !)
To set the story straight (Peter C. Smith):
Vengeance II AN538-AN837 Vultee-built, British contract.
Vengeance I AN838-AN999 Northrop-built, British contract.
Vengeance I AF series Vultee-built, and AP series Northrop- built, British contract.
("British Contract": we paid cash (around $63,000 each), before Lend Lease took over).
Vengeance IA EZ series, Northrop-built, Lend Lease. *
Vengeance III FB and FD series, Vultee-built, both Lend Lease.
Don't think I ever saw a IV, still less flew one. But a small number were supplied to the UK, and modified as Target Tugs. (All IVs were Lend-lease).
Your Dad's remark: "Two flights of VV from the Squadron were to go back to the front on 30th Dec but this was quickly cancelled as the Mossie's were coming earlier than was expected" is most interesting. I arrived in Yelahanka on 26th October, to be told that the decision to reinstate the VVs in place of the Mossies had only just been rescinded. It would seem that (alone ?) among the four RAF Squadrons, 84 had been allowed to keep their full complement.
AFAIK, all the others had their VVs taken away from them in the summer (and the VV crews dispersed as the "new boys" came in). The two IAF Squadrons (7 & 8) kept their VVs until the Spitfire XIVs arrived to replace them.
It would take weeks to gather all the old RAF crews back in and collect the aircraft from all corners of the subcontinent; I'd think that mid-February'45 would be about the earliest date they could hope to have a battle-ready VV force again. But 84 looks as if it had been chosen as the "standard-bearer", perhaps for that reason they had the 4 x Mk.IIIs, but I never saw a III until April '45.
It was only one of the many "what if"s of the war: how would the VVs have performed in Burma if they'd been used for a third "dry season" ? The Japs were being pushed back, I think they would have done very well, hampering the Jap retreat by knocking out "strong points" delaying our advance, and generally making themselves useful on opportunity targets.
Of course, we'll never know now. (And why couldn't we have kept the VVs and the Mossies as well ?) The Mossies took the numbers of the squadrons, but the old crews were no use to them.
But the longest serving old timers had only come out in Spring '42, they would only have done 3 years when the '45 monsoon stopped play. And their aircraft were still all in Theatre !
Cheers, Danny.
EDIT: * But always the same aeroplane ! (the differences were only administrative)
Touché - I misread my "Vengeance" (Peter C. Smith), and there are occasional misdesciptions in my log, too (but mostly I got it right !)
To set the story straight (Peter C. Smith):
Vengeance II AN538-AN837 Vultee-built, British contract.
Vengeance I AN838-AN999 Northrop-built, British contract.
Vengeance I AF series Vultee-built, and AP series Northrop- built, British contract.
("British Contract": we paid cash (around $63,000 each), before Lend Lease took over).
Vengeance IA EZ series, Northrop-built, Lend Lease. *
Vengeance III FB and FD series, Vultee-built, both Lend Lease.
Don't think I ever saw a IV, still less flew one. But a small number were supplied to the UK, and modified as Target Tugs. (All IVs were Lend-lease).
Your Dad's remark: "Two flights of VV from the Squadron were to go back to the front on 30th Dec but this was quickly cancelled as the Mossie's were coming earlier than was expected" is most interesting. I arrived in Yelahanka on 26th October, to be told that the decision to reinstate the VVs in place of the Mossies had only just been rescinded. It would seem that (alone ?) among the four RAF Squadrons, 84 had been allowed to keep their full complement.
AFAIK, all the others had their VVs taken away from them in the summer (and the VV crews dispersed as the "new boys" came in). The two IAF Squadrons (7 & 8) kept their VVs until the Spitfire XIVs arrived to replace them.
It would take weeks to gather all the old RAF crews back in and collect the aircraft from all corners of the subcontinent; I'd think that mid-February'45 would be about the earliest date they could hope to have a battle-ready VV force again. But 84 looks as if it had been chosen as the "standard-bearer", perhaps for that reason they had the 4 x Mk.IIIs, but I never saw a III until April '45.
It was only one of the many "what if"s of the war: how would the VVs have performed in Burma if they'd been used for a third "dry season" ? The Japs were being pushed back, I think they would have done very well, hampering the Jap retreat by knocking out "strong points" delaying our advance, and generally making themselves useful on opportunity targets.
Of course, we'll never know now. (And why couldn't we have kept the VVs and the Mossies as well ?) The Mossies took the numbers of the squadrons, but the old crews were no use to them.
But the longest serving old timers had only come out in Spring '42, they would only have done 3 years when the '45 monsoon stopped play. And their aircraft were still all in Theatre !
Cheers, Danny.
EDIT: * But always the same aeroplane ! (the differences were only administrative)
Last edited by Danny42C; 4th Jul 2014 at 16:45. Reason: Add Text,