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Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Threads closing suspiciously 2?

Old 10th Jan 2007, 23:31
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Whole heartedly agree with the owner's right to run the forum as they see fit - to those that object - "get a life" - surely PPRuNe is not the major focus of your world - if it is then you are a very sad person!
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E86
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Old 10th Jan 2007, 23:44
  #42 (permalink)  
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ShyTorque
The fact that some people choose not to have a personal title does not make them a less valuable contributer to this site. Some of those that contribute the most thought provoking issues (and sometimes complain) do not have a personal title, but without their input the Mil forum wouldnt be nearly as enjoyable.
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 00:09
  #43 (permalink)  

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Surely it's more a matter of recognising the service that PPRuNe provides? A service for which I am more than happy to pay.

The Mil forum has been largely unmoderated for some time; all you have to do is get used to the regime that some of us, who DO frequent other fora on PPRuNe, got used to a long while back!

There is more to PPRuNe than just the Mil Forum!

Now, if Rotorheads was to disappear .....

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 00:24
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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I think the problem started with our reaction to our wonderful bloody Government. Some of our comments could have been construed as Civil Insurrection or, in some eyes, treason. Commerce needs protection and it's his train set! All in all, the World, including that enlightened element named aviation, is the better for this freedom of speech.

If the Gestapo make a hit; it's on the Site Owner, not us. Worth a thought?
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 04:26
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Rob
While you gloat over the numbers and slap each other on the back, remember just how you got to that point. The user comment is a load of bs and is disrespectful to those who frequent the site. Minus us visiting, your stock goes down.

A little acknowledgment of that would be refreshing. Rather I imagine I'll be banned as its easier.
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 07:35
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1997
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Originally Posted by Roghead View Post
Scroggs, it seems that you're joining your co-mod Rob and losing the plot.
New blood is not the same as more blood! There is a constant turnover of Ppruners; only a hardy few are in it for the long haul. If the board was restricted to registered users only, there would be a net loss of users. Actually, that's an idea...!

I'm sure that even the less aware amongst you can see that limits must be placed on the coverage remit of each forum, otherwise they lose their focus - which is far more likely to lose us readership than by tightly controlling the subject matter. Yes, it's true that e-Goat, ARRSE and Rum Ration are better places to discuss the minutiae of non-aviation Service life, and that's as it should be. The forums of the BBC, Private Eye and others are the appropriate places to discuss general politics and world affairs. PPRuNe is for discussing aviation, and Mil Aircrew is for discussing military aviation. Not JPA. Not Saddam Hussain's death. Not housing stock. This isn't an all-things-to-all-people supermarket-stylee talk shop. It's a niche outlet, a specialist forum. Not so specialist, mind, that we pander to the aircrew-only extremists, but specialist enough to have become the forum of choice for serious - and not-so-serious - discussion of military aviation. However, to remain so we must control the noise to signal ratio, and this forum's has been getting out of hand. Inevitably, some will be dischuffed by the re-focussing exercise, and Rob's irrascible style will piss off a few - but it'll amuse more than it upsets!

Hey ho; another teacup tornado in PPRuNe-land. I'm off to spend all those millions I get from my share of the PPRuNe advertising bonanza.

Scroggs
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 08:03
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Scroggs
Thanks for the reply; given the size of the current PRRuNe readership, I can live with the lack of PM to tell me my thread (US Airstrikes in Somalia) was closed - although I am still at a loss to understand why.
My particular beef with this individual closure is that this is a subject that directly affects mil aircrew - US, UK and French in the main. We (the RAF) have people deployed all over the CENTCOM AOR, which includes Iraq, Afghanistan and the Horn of Africa. We have deployed in the past, and continue to deploy a small number of personnel to the HOA. (A few years ago, the RAF were involved in air ops based in Kenya, for example). Ergo, the BBC news report that I posted a link to, is of direct relevance to many of us and of professional interest to many more.
I've been here about 5 years (this is my second PPRuNe username) and my post rate could hardly be called prolific. However, I would like to think that occasionally I have something relevant and/or interesting to offer. If that's to be more limited because I haven't bought a personal title, so be it. I'm not going to throw my teddies out of the pram.
However, like it or not, PPRuNe Mil Aircrew has become a victim of its own success. Due to the state of affairs that has existed in the upper echelons of the Services for some time, combined with Government-directed swinging cuts and commitments that continue to extend us beyond our means, this forum has for many become the only way we can get our voices heard - even if only amongst our PPRuNe peer group. Discussions on subjects such as JPA are important to us - the system directly affects how we operate, whether deployed or at home. Aircrew or not, all of us in the RAF are in the business of generating air power and getting those aircraft to the target/on station/down route as applicable - hence various threads' applicability to this forum.
Just my 2p worth; I'm staying with PPRuNe but I was surprised at the 'we don't care what you think' attitude displayed in the other thread.
Cheers
SBG
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 08:12
  #48 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Tigs2 View Post
ShyTorque
The fact that some people choose not to have a personal title does not make them a less valuable contributer to this site. Some of those that contribute the most thought provoking issues (and sometimes complain) do not have a personal title, but without their input the Mil forum wouldnt be nearly as enjoyable.
Tigs, Let them get their hands in their pockets. If someone chooses to go onto a private playing field without paying, why should they complain the loudest if the owner decides he needs to mow the grass? Good footballers or not.
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 08:20
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scroggs View Post
Pprune is for discussing aviation, and Mil Aircrew is for discussing military aviation. Not JPA. Not Saddam Hussain's death. Not housing stock.
Scroggs
Scroggs

I've no issue over how you guys run the site. It's your ball and you'll let who you want play and no-one else.

But...
Surely JPA and housing amount to T&Cs for us military guys? Do the BA guys and such not discuss T&Cs on their forums?

Saddam's hanging may be "World Politics" on other forums, but some of the people on this site helped depose him and continue to help re-build his country.

I've been a member under under one moniker or other since about 2000 and PPRuNe has changed a little but not beyond all recognition. These days there are more wannabes and more "non-aviators". Though I'm not anti-blunty, I do believe a way to regain aviation focus and also reduce load on the server would be to either close the forum to non-aviators (who are well served by E-Goat et al) or make it a private forum (such as the airline specific forums). It may not be popular, but as you and your colleagues have said, so what, and the ones that stay will restore and maintain the purity of the site.

Like sweary telly, if you don't like it, there's an off switch. If you don't like the way PPRuNe is run, go elsewhwere. If you like it and believe it's important, think of constructive ways that we, the users, can help the site survive and improve. Not just have a bitch-fight over it (and yes, I'm aware that some comments from PPRuNe Towers could be seen as inflammatory, but like I said it's their ball and they choose the rules).

Frankly, I think PPRuNe's great and a valuable community for us aviators. long may it go on.
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 08:22
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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scroggs, Rob et al,
I don't mind rules, I don't mind principles, I don't mind that it's not my train set, so I'm not about to go off in the huff but how about some consistency then?
PPRuNe is for discussing aviation, and Mil Aircrew is for discussing military aviation. Not JPA. Not Saddam Hussain's death. Not housing stock.
If these are the rules the mods want to apply, then fine, lock those threads, or as happens in other situations, move them to a more appropriate place - Jet Blast for Saddam and houses, T&C for JPA. And get rid of some of the noise like "Over familiarization". Like Whirls said about schoolboys, if you go to the effort of closing a thread, why not take a couple of extra seconds to post a message saying why. The hint will be taken, communication being a 2-way thing, and you will even get the last word

sw
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 08:22
  #51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by PPRuNe Towers View Post
We do not care what you think. Please consider that sentence carefully.
Thats an amazing point to make to people that write on these forums. Did you go to the Gerald Ratner school of communication?

You really have lost touch with how the military mind works.
Do you think that by throwing your weight around you'll get what you want? You'll just get twice the reaction back, told where to go and people will walk.

I come to these forums because it is one of the few military forums where you can have intelligent and considered opinion that isn't dotted with racism, 'in my time' quotes and small minded ignorance, I also have a strong interest in Mil aviation having been involved with it during my forces career. Tis a shame that it seems to be lorded over by a moderator whose attitude to the posters replicates John Prescotts attitude to voters.
 
Old 11th Jan 2007, 09:01
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 336
Cant believe I'm replying to this thread... but.... As an admin on another site, I just can't believe whats been said!

Yes, your train set, no problem with that. You make the rules, you do what you like. However Mil Aircrew has been left alone for years to run unmoderated, and its been successful. Its one of the consistently busiest forums on PPRuNe. You say its a niche - I'd argue that. Thats what you've made it. (Well, actually you've set it up and hosted it, the users have made it, but I'm trying to butter you up in this paragraph... )

Now you change the rules without notice, and get shirty at the regulars who are suddenly seeing their new / old threads being pulled for spurious reasons? Additionally, threads are being pulled inconsistently. There is some dross and non-aviation related threads on the forum thats still there - applying the reasons you've given, why haven't you pulled those? Or are you just pulling threads you dont like? After YEARS of consistency in posting and (non) moderation, all relevant, a little banter, you've gone from self moderation, no-notice ruthless moderation. I think the users have a right to question whats going on, and I dont know why you are so surprised they are! You dont need to answer it, but there is dissatisfaction with this sudden and no-notice change.

Had you given the users a week or twos warning that you were about to impose pruning and new rules on posting, you would have given users the opportunity to HELP you, and given a grace period to change posting styles, and explore other options. How much time does this take? A couple of minutes to inform the whole forum via a sticky post. Users would have told you what threads were pointless and could be pulled. You would have got them involved in the process.

You know, if you're that fed up with users, and forum admin, and stuff like that, you could just close the whole forum for 6 months.

Whatever - I'm not going anywhere, I dont post much anyway. Maybe I'm the sort of person you want rid of.
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 09:55
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Nigit
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Logging Out

Would the over-burdening of the server be aided by people logging out and staying logged out until they want to post or view a Personal Profile etc?

I know nothing about this kind of thing, but there always seem to be lots of people logged in all the time...

And I don't suppose "tabbed" browsers help, where you are always "looking" at a site, even though it's not shown on your screen at that time.

If it would help, it could be worth a sticky for a while...

Logging out now, just in case...
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 09:58
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Posts: 289
Too many users

Having been a member for some ten years or more, I think my original number was 2000+, I suggested about 3 years ago to "Admin" (who never answered) that it was easy at times of high useage to restrict access to members only, many sites actually do this quite successfully--no registration=no access.

Below are the current figures, 11/10/07 1135GMT
Currently Active Users
Showing threads 1 to 25 of 234 249 (67 members & 182
guests)

If only registered members were logged on I think that makes about a 60% reduction in server load.

Question Was PPRuNe Towers ever in the Service?, if not could explain a lack of understanding of the Service mind
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 10:06
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Postman Plod View Post
However Mil Aircrew has been left alone for years to run unmoderated
No it hasn't. It just hasn't had a dedicated moderator. As for consistency in moderation, it's an unfortunate fact that all the mods (and there are 60+ on PPRuNe, though not so many that have mod powers in here) are human and not clones, so they will have different interpretations of the policies and rules we work under. Also, it's probably true that we've taken our eyes off this particular ball recently, and getting it back in line is therefore that bit more painful. The rules haven't changed, but their enforcement may have done.

As for JPA being a T&Cs issue, so it is. However, there is no Mil T&E forum here and it's highly unlikely there ever will be one - again, e-Goat etc are the best places for that kind of discussion. The fact that they exist make it a waste of time and effort to create Private Forums for the RAF, RN, Army, USAF, FAF etc, etc. The reason most airlines don'y have private forums here is because they have their own elsewhere. It's invidious to compare it to the civilian T&E forum, which is primarily about pay and jobs, not about admin support or housing issues.

The 'Airstrikes in Somalia' thread was typical of what Rob is trying to excise from this forum. While it may have been intended as a discussion about the tactics and practicalities of air power in that situation, by post 2 it had become a political discussion of US foreign policy - nothing whatsoever to do with aviation. The fact that some of you were involved in operations tro depose Saddam does not make his death an appropriate subject for discussion here - any more than the fact that I'm a Virgin pilot who would like a Ferrari (but can't afford one!) makes Ferraris an appropriate topic in the Virgin forum.


Scroggs
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 10:08
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shack View Post
.
Below are the current figures, 11/10/07 1135GMT
Currently Active Users
Showing threads 1 to 25 of 234 249 (67 members & 182
guests)
If only registered members were logged on I think that makes about a 60% reduction in server load.
The vast majority of these 'guests' are likely to be crawler bots from search engines and spam generators, rather than individuals who are actively browsing the forums.

Scroggs
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 10:16
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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I can't honestly believe that you think JPA should not be discussed here. It had a direct effect on aviation. You had guys deployed in the sand not being paid and all the anguish with having serious domestic issues to deal with from thousand of miles away. Not many things affect your mind when you commit to aviation but that must have run some people very close. It affected guys on resettlement, and was a real concern for many weeks. I really think you have lost your way if you are banning such things now. It even made the press and Parliament. Or is that the real problem here?

Last edited by nigegilb; 11th Jan 2007 at 10:28.
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 10:24
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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No Nige, it has no direct effect on aviation. It may have an indirect effect by directly affecting aviators (among others) who are employed by HMG, but it is not an aviation topic. Nor was it being discussed from that angle; it was simply a group moan about the difficulties of using the system. E-Goat is the place for that - and more likely to reach those Admin wallahs who have responsibility for such trash. Getting mentions in the Press and Parliament does not motivate PPRuNe and its staff. If it floats the boats of others, they can fill their boots.

Scroggs
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 10:27
  #59 (permalink)  
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and Rob's irrascible style will piss off a few - but it'll amuse more than it upsets!
Unfortunately that seems to be the case and, as a result, just goes to reinforce the ultra-chav attitude of those in charge (funny that we haven't had any word from the great Danny).

DON'T BE AMUSED - BE BLOODY ANNOYED!

I post this in trepidation as I had an email exchange with Rob over this precise subject following banning after the use of a non-PC phrase on another forum. My reward for trying to conduct an intelligent argument was to be declared a "non person" - that is, my posts appeared on my computer but no-one else could see them. Rob's attitude managed to lose the site some valuable advertising. Fair enough. He doesn't want it. So he didn't get it. One of the UK flying mags got it instead.

Danny - I believe that you and Rob are making a huge mistake and this may be the first indication (along with all those on other forums) that your little empire of influence is about to collapse. You cannot treat your customers (or however you want to describe us) as pieces of trash. Some of us have paid actual money (personal titles etc) and, as such, there is an implicit contract of service. Your silence is deafening - do you support your partner's view?

I suspect that this is another "suicide note".
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Old 11th Jan 2007, 10:33
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by allan907 View Post
funny that we haven't had any word from the great Danny
Danny, like most of us, works for a living. Many of the destinations he visits have little or no reliable internet access. He is also in the throes of moving house. I suspect he has better things to do just now than get involved in this little spat, which will not affect the turning of the Earth one iota.

Scroggs
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