Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Guernsey
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jacko, I sent an email to the BBC and I didn’t send one to the MOD press office.
I didn’t send one to the press office because, as I understand it, they were complying with the long standing principal of no details until NOK have been informed.
The BBC (and other UK news outlets) calling UDI due to the fact that ‘the Americans do it differently’ doesn’t wash with me.
Would you rather that MOD had, 1 hour in, announced that it was a MR2 just ‘cause the US do it that way’ and have 50 ish sets of loved ones in Moray waiting for the knock at the door from Officers in No1s.
As it stands, the ‘Nations Flag Ship News Service’ had god knows how many people at Odiham worried out of there minds for no good reason apart from being first and dam the accuracy! Such is the demand to feed the god of 24 hour ‘perma-news’. I expect better from the BBC.
I didn’t send one to the press office because, as I understand it, they were complying with the long standing principal of no details until NOK have been informed.
The BBC (and other UK news outlets) calling UDI due to the fact that ‘the Americans do it differently’ doesn’t wash with me.
Would you rather that MOD had, 1 hour in, announced that it was a MR2 just ‘cause the US do it that way’ and have 50 ish sets of loved ones in Moray waiting for the knock at the door from Officers in No1s.
As it stands, the ‘Nations Flag Ship News Service’ had god knows how many people at Odiham worried out of there minds for no good reason apart from being first and dam the accuracy! Such is the demand to feed the god of 24 hour ‘perma-news’. I expect better from the BBC.
The BBC (and other UK news outlets) calling UDI due to the fact that ‘the Americans do it differently’ doesn’t wash with me.
Would you rather that MOD had, 1 hour in, announced that it was a MR2 just ‘cause the US do it that way’ and have 50 ish sets of loved ones in Moray waiting for the knock at the door from Officers in No1s.
Would you rather that MOD had, 1 hour in, announced that it was a MR2 just ‘cause the US do it that way’ and have 50 ish sets of loved ones in Moray waiting for the knock at the door from Officers in No1s.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where does the law stand with regards to having a tele NOT capable of receiving the beebs channels, would you then NOT be required to have a licence......? anyone know for certain
CM:
"If you use a TV or any other device to receive or record TV programmes (for example, a VCR, set-top box, DVD recorder or PC with a broadcast card) - you need a TV Licence. You are required by law to have one."
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/information/index.jsp
"If you use a TV or any other device to receive or record TV programmes (for example, a VCR, set-top box, DVD recorder or PC with a broadcast card) - you need a TV Licence. You are required by law to have one."
http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/information/index.jsp
Fat Albert
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Wilts, UK
Age: 63
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also received what seems to be the standard response from the BBC. Funny old thing it did not answer the points I made in my complaint, in particular regarding the use of the so called 'experts'.
GG II
That pretty much sums up my feelings
GG II
That pretty much sums up my feelings
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Woot....just got my reply from the Beeb, Completely different reply from everyone else, they state.
"we are extremely sorry for the reporting of the crash of the aircraft in the manner we did, we will be looking to sack the correspondent concerned in this erroneous reporting and will be looking to.......Wait.......we have information from a credible defence correspondent that this kind of reply is not consistant with our standard replies and thus will be removed immediately, it is beyond our remit to apologise and we WILL be increasing our licence fee to pay for our MD`s increased salary........"
Yep, i got the standard Sh***
"we are extremely sorry for the reporting of the crash of the aircraft in the manner we did, we will be looking to sack the correspondent concerned in this erroneous reporting and will be looking to.......Wait.......we have information from a credible defence correspondent that this kind of reply is not consistant with our standard replies and thus will be removed immediately, it is beyond our remit to apologise and we WILL be increasing our licence fee to pay for our MD`s increased salary........"
Yep, i got the standard Sh***
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder whether any of those who angrily wrote to the Beeb, whining and demanding an explanation and apology for their speculation did the same to whoever is ultimately responsible for the MoD press desk, which was at least equally culpable.
Thought not.
After all, journos are the real enemy......
Thought not.
After all, journos are the real enemy......
As it is, I believe there was sufficient concern on the inside that they didn't need pushing, just for once.
However, for my £1, the Beeb has been known for ever as the voice of reason, balance and accuracy. It's funded by the licence fee and therefore shouldn't feel the need to get the news first; it should feel obligated to get it right first time, every time though. The simple fact is, it didn't and lost credibility and goodwill (though not forever) as a result.
Both sides need to reflect on what went wrong and do something about it, perhaps paying some attention to the old adage we have one mouth but two ears.
However, for my £1, the Beeb has been known for ever as the voice of reason, balance and accuracy. It's funded by the licence fee and therefore shouldn't feel the need to get the news first; it should feel obligated to get it right first time, every time though. The simple fact is, it didn't and lost credibility and goodwill (though not forever) as a result.
Chugalug2,
“The days of glory in WW2 and the 50’s are long gone”
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!
You think a war that claimed the lives of millions, ruined the lives of countless more and bankrupted half the western world was some kind of “glory”?
I grew up in the 50’s and if you think THEY were some kind of “glory” then you are harking back to a past that only ever existed in your imagination.
As for Woman’s hour, you clearly listen to a VERY different programme to the one I do
Whilst the likes of Greg Dyke most probably DID have a rather strange agenda he is long gone and largely discredited. I think you are being rather harsh on an organisation that takes pride in not presenting a visual or verbal equivalent of the Daily Mail.
“The days of glory in WW2 and the 50’s are long gone”
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!
You think a war that claimed the lives of millions, ruined the lives of countless more and bankrupted half the western world was some kind of “glory”?
I grew up in the 50’s and if you think THEY were some kind of “glory” then you are harking back to a past that only ever existed in your imagination.
As for Woman’s hour, you clearly listen to a VERY different programme to the one I do
Whilst the likes of Greg Dyke most probably DID have a rather strange agenda he is long gone and largely discredited. I think you are being rather harsh on an organisation that takes pride in not presenting a visual or verbal equivalent of the Daily Mail.
The days of glory I refer to are those of the BBC! In WW2 it was rightly seen throughout Occupied Europe as the voice of freedom and hope, particularly as it told it how it was (as far as was permitted), warts and all. That tradition continued after the war, and as the sole Broadcasting Authority it took its mandate from Lord Reith to heart, and strove to entertain and inform in as unbiased and objective way possible. With the appearance of competition that changed. Today it sees itself, I think, as the counterweight to the likes of the 'Daily Mail' and rival Broadcasters, and feels obliged to position itself left of centre. In other words what strove to be apolitical is now very political, and funded by a tax levied on everyone, no matter what their political convictions. I say that is wrong!
As to the 50s, I too grew up in that bleak decade. All the more tribute to the Beeb then that they cheered us up with quality broadcasting!
As to the 50s, I too grew up in that bleak decade. All the more tribute to the Beeb then that they cheered us up with quality broadcasting!
Hmm, following the 50's thread drift, I recall the nation recovering from the first disastrous post-war labour government, but then later the other disasters of Beeching's short-sightedness and Duncan Sandys infamous 1957 Defence White Paper... Neither of whom even had the excuse of being labour politicians and thus not knowing any better.
But I was more interested in all the low-flying jets which flashed around Somerset, plus the products of Hornby Dublo and Airfix. The sun did indeed shine in summer, but it was VERY bleak in the winter. And my pocket money was 6d per week.... There was but ONE TV channel where I lived to be watched on our 12" Bush TV - which we didn't have until 1955. Merryfield GCA used to break through occasionally - and it needed a rotary converter as our electricity came from a 115V petrol generator. But Muffin the Mule was still legal in those days.
Many broadcasters of those days were ex-military and had a robust distaste for media queens. As the former have become fewer, the latter have increased their influence on the media in general. Not just the BBC.
In 1953 we were supposed to be in a 'New Elizabethan' age. But when the headmaster at my prep school told us, as 1960 came along, of all the wonders coming in the 1960s, he was a bit wrong there! Profumo Affaire, Great Train Robbery, the Krays.........
Back to the thread - any further official announcements regarding the specifics of the Nimrod accident?
But I was more interested in all the low-flying jets which flashed around Somerset, plus the products of Hornby Dublo and Airfix. The sun did indeed shine in summer, but it was VERY bleak in the winter. And my pocket money was 6d per week.... There was but ONE TV channel where I lived to be watched on our 12" Bush TV - which we didn't have until 1955. Merryfield GCA used to break through occasionally - and it needed a rotary converter as our electricity came from a 115V petrol generator. But Muffin the Mule was still legal in those days.
Many broadcasters of those days were ex-military and had a robust distaste for media queens. As the former have become fewer, the latter have increased their influence on the media in general. Not just the BBC.
In 1953 we were supposed to be in a 'New Elizabethan' age. But when the headmaster at my prep school told us, as 1960 came along, of all the wonders coming in the 1960s, he was a bit wrong there! Profumo Affaire, Great Train Robbery, the Krays.........
Back to the thread - any further official announcements regarding the specifics of the Nimrod accident?
safetypee, that's most interesting.
I recall when we first started refuelling Nimrods in the 1980s, there was a procedure we had to go through to check proper fuel transfer. "Fuel flows, fuel stops, fuel flows..." during the first stages of any onload to the Nirmod. A legacy of the somewhat rudimentary Malvinas war probe system and associated plumbing?
The check was later dropped once the systems had been improved, I understood?
My AAR role check included a Nimrod AEW3. Having watched it jousting away trying to catch the drogue as its front radome bow wave pushed it away, I always wondered how much fatigue the probe system was designed to take....
I recall when we first started refuelling Nimrods in the 1980s, there was a procedure we had to go through to check proper fuel transfer. "Fuel flows, fuel stops, fuel flows..." during the first stages of any onload to the Nirmod. A legacy of the somewhat rudimentary Malvinas war probe system and associated plumbing?
The check was later dropped once the systems had been improved, I understood?
My AAR role check included a Nimrod AEW3. Having watched it jousting away trying to catch the drogue as its front radome bow wave pushed it away, I always wondered how much fatigue the probe system was designed to take....
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are surely joking GMP. The Beeb has had a political agenda to the left of centre for years. It is so ridden with dogma and PC that to say it is the voice of reason, balance and accuracy makes me wonder if you really do listen to the message that is being so relentlessly pumped out. Not just the news and current affairs progs either. Woman's Hour, that years ago was a non-political general interest prog (I remember that marvelous actress Hattie Jacques talking about Tony Hancock's Half Hour for example), has now been taken over by the Feminist Brigade, with speakers (who invariably have American accents) forever moaning about men!........The days of glory, in WW2 and the 50's, are long gone. The Beeb is now a tree hugging socialist monster and needs putting down, like all corporations that proclaim themselves British, but are in fact anything but!
Regrettably the PC agenda is everywhere these days, not just the Beeb so it isn't fair to knock them alone for it. It is unpalatable, though, I agree and removes facts. You have only to recall the discussion on the Dambusters' film on this site for that!
However, on the central theme, for the Nimrod they got it terribly wrong - not through bias but through missing the entire point of what they are there to do and how they should behave. For that they got a direct missive of invective from me (and lots of others), for which I got a wholly inadequate response of embarrassed 'doing their best to avoid the point'.
But would I rather listen to my local radio station for quality news? I don't think so. Would abandoning the licence fee improve the quality of reporting? I doubt it. Are all journos at fault and inherently bent on distortion. No. And do I have a better solution to how it should be done? No, but I did try to get a discussion on it moving here - so chip in if you do have a workable solution because no one else seems to have.
Fair enough,GMP, we are going to have to agree to disagree! As to the Tories and New Labour complaining equally about the Beeb's bias, I would say that is probally due to the bias being to the left of both of them! Trying, like you, to bring all this back on thread, my contention is that this was not an isolated slip from normally impeccable standards, but pretty well par for the course.
My personal experience, posted 27th September, of a similar circumstance to the Nimrod loss, concentrated my mind wonderfully on the Beeb's haughty attitude to HM Forces. As the boss gave me the task of being responsible for liaising with the family of one of the deceased, I can only say that I have never felt more inadequate or humbled in the face of such grief stricken stalwart courage. But never mind that, we are the Beeb and we've got a scoop, nothing on the other side until four hours later! As the young people of today would say, Muppets (a term of ridicule and contempt, my Lord)!
My personal experience, posted 27th September, of a similar circumstance to the Nimrod loss, concentrated my mind wonderfully on the Beeb's haughty attitude to HM Forces. As the boss gave me the task of being responsible for liaising with the family of one of the deceased, I can only say that I have never felt more inadequate or humbled in the face of such grief stricken stalwart courage. But never mind that, we are the Beeb and we've got a scoop, nothing on the other side until four hours later! As the young people of today would say, Muppets (a term of ridicule and contempt, my Lord)!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.......concentrated my mind wonderfully on the Beeb's haughty attitude to HM Forces. As the boss gave me the task of being responsible for liaising with the family of one of the deceased, I can only say that I have never felt more inadequate or humbled in the face of such grief stricken stalwart courage.
But never mind that, we are the Beeb and we've got a scoop, nothing on the other side until four hours later! ......
But never mind that, we are the Beeb and we've got a scoop, nothing on the other side until four hours later! ......
But being wrong isn't failing to achieve balance - it's just being wrong.
Regarding the scoop point you make, that's precisely were I'm coming from. Since they are financed through the licence fee, they don't need scoops. They must achieve accuracy, though. If they have the right to demand payment of the licence fee (where independents have to make a commercial gain) they have the responsibility to get their story straight, and be known for doing so.
And on that point, we need to keep complaining when they get it wrong and cross reference back to other times where they got it wrong.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
BBC mounts court fight to keep 'critical' report secret
The BBC has spent thousands of pounds of licence payers' money trying to block the release of a report which is believed to be highly critical of its Middle East coverage.
The corporation is mounting a landmark High Court action to prevent the release of The Balen Report under the Freedom of Information Act, despite the fact that BBC reporters often use the Act to pursue their journalism. The action will increase suspicions that the report, which is believed to run to 20,000 words, includes evidence of anti-Israeli bias in news programming.
The court case will have far reaching implications for the future working of the Act and the BBC. If the corporation loses, it will have to release thousands of pages of other documents that have been held back. Like all public bodies, the BBC is obliged to release information about itself under the Act. However, along with Channel 4, Britain's other public service broadcaster, it is allowed to hold back material that deals with the production of its art, entertainment and journalism.
The High Court action is the latest stage of a lengthy and expensive battle by Steven Sugar, a lawyer, to get access to the document, which was compiled by Malcolm Balen, a senior editorial adviser, in 2004. Richard Thomas, the Information Commissioner, who is responsible for the workings of the Act, agreed with the BBC that the document, which examines hundreds of hours of its radio and television broadcasts, could be held back. However, Mr Sugar appealed and, after a two-day hearing at which the BBC was represented by two barristers, the Information Tribunal found in his favour. Mr Sugar said: "This is a serious report about a serious issue and has been compiled with public money. I lodged the request because I was concerned that the BBC's reporting of the second intifada was seriously unbalanced against Israel, but I think there are other issues at stake now in the light of the BBC's reaction."
The BBC's coverage of the Middle East has been frequently condemned for a perceived anti-Israeli bias. In 2004, for example, Barbara Plett, a Middle East correspondent, was criticised for revealing in an episode of Radio 4's From Our Own Correspondent that she had been moved to tears by the plight of the dying Yasser Arafat. MPs said it proved that the corporation was incapable of presenting a balanced account of issues in the Middle East.
Figures released by the Information Commissioner's Office show that there have been 105 complaints about the BBC's attitude to the Act since it came into force in January 2005. Only four of these have been dismissed and the rest are being examined. The BBC has lodged at least 25 complaints about the way other organisations have dealt with its requests.
The BBC declined to say how much it was spending on the High Court action. "We will be appealing the decision of the Information Tribunal," a spokesman said. "This case has wider implications relating to the way the Act applies to public broadcasters."
The BBC has spent thousands of pounds of licence payers' money trying to block the release of a report which is believed to be highly critical of its Middle East coverage.
The corporation is mounting a landmark High Court action to prevent the release of The Balen Report under the Freedom of Information Act, despite the fact that BBC reporters often use the Act to pursue their journalism. The action will increase suspicions that the report, which is believed to run to 20,000 words, includes evidence of anti-Israeli bias in news programming.
The court case will have far reaching implications for the future working of the Act and the BBC. If the corporation loses, it will have to release thousands of pages of other documents that have been held back. Like all public bodies, the BBC is obliged to release information about itself under the Act. However, along with Channel 4, Britain's other public service broadcaster, it is allowed to hold back material that deals with the production of its art, entertainment and journalism.
The High Court action is the latest stage of a lengthy and expensive battle by Steven Sugar, a lawyer, to get access to the document, which was compiled by Malcolm Balen, a senior editorial adviser, in 2004. Richard Thomas, the Information Commissioner, who is responsible for the workings of the Act, agreed with the BBC that the document, which examines hundreds of hours of its radio and television broadcasts, could be held back. However, Mr Sugar appealed and, after a two-day hearing at which the BBC was represented by two barristers, the Information Tribunal found in his favour. Mr Sugar said: "This is a serious report about a serious issue and has been compiled with public money. I lodged the request because I was concerned that the BBC's reporting of the second intifada was seriously unbalanced against Israel, but I think there are other issues at stake now in the light of the BBC's reaction."
The BBC's coverage of the Middle East has been frequently condemned for a perceived anti-Israeli bias. In 2004, for example, Barbara Plett, a Middle East correspondent, was criticised for revealing in an episode of Radio 4's From Our Own Correspondent that she had been moved to tears by the plight of the dying Yasser Arafat. MPs said it proved that the corporation was incapable of presenting a balanced account of issues in the Middle East.
Figures released by the Information Commissioner's Office show that there have been 105 complaints about the BBC's attitude to the Act since it came into force in January 2005. Only four of these have been dismissed and the rest are being examined. The BBC has lodged at least 25 complaints about the way other organisations have dealt with its requests.
The BBC declined to say how much it was spending on the High Court action. "We will be appealing the decision of the Information Tribunal," a spokesman said. "This case has wider implications relating to the way the Act applies to public broadcasters."