Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
No-one could have more sympathy than I do for the families left behind by this tragedy, and in an ideal world, we'd all leave it until the BOI reports.(And the BOI would be infallible and incapable of being swayed by anyone with an agenda, and there'd certainly never have been the need for multiple multi-page Chinook threads).
We'd be content to listen to the light programme and wonder whether to buy one of those televisions we'd heard about.
And all journalists would be decent chaps, highly educated, probably former Hurricane pilots during the recent spate of unpleasantness, and so they'd be just as hesitant in raising the subject before the BOI had ground its course.
And Mr Churchill's Government, and its civil servants, would never, ever allow aircrew's lives to be risked in 30 year old aircraft, and if they were lost would have nothing to fear from the most rigorous reports.
But we're not in an ideal world, and threads like this one (and the one that BOAC chose to close) are the virtual water cooler around which people can try to make sense of what happened, and through which non-specialised journos might stand a faint chance of learning something that might make their ramblings slightly less badly wrong.
The stories will be written and broadcast regardless, and the more balanced and correct they are, the less the families will be hurt.
Even if journos wait until the BOI, it's in all our interests that they have some passing knowledge of what has happened, because they won't have time to learn it once their editors press the go button.
We'd be content to listen to the light programme and wonder whether to buy one of those televisions we'd heard about.
And all journalists would be decent chaps, highly educated, probably former Hurricane pilots during the recent spate of unpleasantness, and so they'd be just as hesitant in raising the subject before the BOI had ground its course.
And Mr Churchill's Government, and its civil servants, would never, ever allow aircrew's lives to be risked in 30 year old aircraft, and if they were lost would have nothing to fear from the most rigorous reports.
But we're not in an ideal world, and threads like this one (and the one that BOAC chose to close) are the virtual water cooler around which people can try to make sense of what happened, and through which non-specialised journos might stand a faint chance of learning something that might make their ramblings slightly less badly wrong.
The stories will be written and broadcast regardless, and the more balanced and correct they are, the less the families will be hurt.
Even if journos wait until the BOI, it's in all our interests that they have some passing knowledge of what has happened, because they won't have time to learn it once their editors press the go button.
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I agree. This is an open forum for discussion and not for condolences. That said, it shouldn't be open for daftness either.
Any of us acquainted with the Nimrod and its fit and foibles will have our suspicions and opinions and this is as good a place to discuss them as any. And if it isn't, close the thread.
Any of us acquainted with the Nimrod and its fit and foibles will have our suspicions and opinions and this is as good a place to discuss them as any. And if it isn't, close the thread.
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Regards to all
k1rb5
I'd agree, Kirbs. It's as insensitive as the Ford Anglia debate was. This thread ought to stay more tightly focused than is the norm on PPRuNe, out of respect. And I apologise for diverting it with this post and my last.
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It's as insensitive as the Ford Anglia debate
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Suspension of Nimrod AAR
Suspension of Nimrod AAR.
A decision to suspend temporarily all Nimrod air to air refuelling has been made following the discovery of a fuel leak on a Nimrod MR2 which landed safely in the Middle East on 8 November following an air-to-air re-fuelling operation. An investigation into the cause of the fuel leak is underway. The temporary suspension is purely a precautionary measure and the decision should not be construed as pre-judging the findings of the Board of Inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the loss of XV230. The Board of Inquiry investigating the circumstances surrounding the crash of XV230 over Afghanistan is still underway and has not come to any firm conclusions on the cause of the crash. It would be unhelpful to speculate on the causes of the crash until the Board of Inquiry has reported.
A decision to suspend temporarily all Nimrod air to air refuelling has been made following the discovery of a fuel leak on a Nimrod MR2 which landed safely in the Middle East on 8 November following an air-to-air re-fuelling operation. An investigation into the cause of the fuel leak is underway. The temporary suspension is purely a precautionary measure and the decision should not be construed as pre-judging the findings of the Board of Inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the loss of XV230. The Board of Inquiry investigating the circumstances surrounding the crash of XV230 over Afghanistan is still underway and has not come to any firm conclusions on the cause of the crash. It would be unhelpful to speculate on the causes of the crash until the Board of Inquiry has reported.
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I would thought that such suspension was sensible - after all, I believe that the Nimrod AAR capability was a 'quick fix' for the Falkands campaign which then stayed as part of the capabilities of the ac - like other ac I could mention. As there have been less tankers to play with for some years now and those that remain are very busy trucking elsewhere, perhaps the Nimrod's AAR bits had gone unused for a while and eventually becoming 'less serviceable'? Also, this would give the engineers less opportunity to spot any problems early.
Anyone know if this is the case, or have the 'rods been doing lots of tanking recently?
If the AAR piping has not been kept 'well-oiled', is there any read-across to other fleets that haven't been doing much tanking recently - ie all of them?
One for the BOI to ponder I suspect!
Anyone know if this is the case, or have the 'rods been doing lots of tanking recently?
If the AAR piping has not been kept 'well-oiled', is there any read-across to other fleets that haven't been doing much tanking recently - ie all of them?
One for the BOI to ponder I suspect!
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I understand completely the sensetivities at current, and I know the families of some of the men lost read these threads, that said What we are talking about here and in particular what WASALOADIE raised about the cessation of AAR and ongoing fuel problems the Nimrod has are a major concern to all of us that fly on them.
Whilst waiting for the board of inquiry to complete it's report ( some months away) this thread is a genuine place to air concerns and thoughts about the ongoing crisis regarding nimrods and fuel, we could all hang around and await boi but in the meantime what about those people still flying in a plane with a questionable serviceability?
Whilst waiting for the board of inquiry to complete it's report ( some months away) this thread is a genuine place to air concerns and thoughts about the ongoing crisis regarding nimrods and fuel, we could all hang around and await boi but in the meantime what about those people still flying in a plane with a questionable serviceability?
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toddbabe,
While in no way diminishing your concerns (or those flying) the difference between serviceability and risk needs to be recognised.
For the engineers working to provide the goods, an aircraft may be servicable but will carry some risk of failure (and I've commented earlier about issues of flying unserviceable aircraft).
For those flying serviceable aircraft, there remains a risk that something goes wrong. What happens when it goes wrong is important. Figuring out if something is too risky, and taking steps to reduce that risk is what the wheels will be on at the moment.
sw
While in no way diminishing your concerns (or those flying) the difference between serviceability and risk needs to be recognised.
For the engineers working to provide the goods, an aircraft may be servicable but will carry some risk of failure (and I've commented earlier about issues of flying unserviceable aircraft).
For those flying serviceable aircraft, there remains a risk that something goes wrong. What happens when it goes wrong is important. Figuring out if something is too risky, and taking steps to reduce that risk is what the wheels will be on at the moment.
sw
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SW, from what I understand of the checks carried out after the loss of XV230 further evidence was found of particular concern to the AAR fleet. What was not immediately discovered was a source of ignition. If by the nature of AAR sorties a pressure fuel leak can occur with associated misting of fuel, and the source of ignition may still be present, then surely it is a logical decision to cease AAR soties.
The source of ignition in the case of TWA 800 was a very old and damaged wiring system. Plain fact, we are operating and maintaining very old aircraft, this is yet another sign of an overstretched military suffering because of a lack of investment in its people and equipment.
And before anyone criticises me for speaking out ahead of the BoI, we could have been discussing another Nimrod tragedy here.
The source of ignition in the case of TWA 800 was a very old and damaged wiring system. Plain fact, we are operating and maintaining very old aircraft, this is yet another sign of an overstretched military suffering because of a lack of investment in its people and equipment.
And before anyone criticises me for speaking out ahead of the BoI, we could have been discussing another Nimrod tragedy here.
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Nige,
'then surely it is a logical decision to cease AAR soties' - I agree completely. My point was that we shouldn't over-egg the issues by trying to compare apples and oranges - ie serviceability vs risk.
Having established that there is a failure mode that can occur in a system that was S when the ac took off, and that this failure mode is hazardous (production of fuel mist) in the presence of an ignition source, the options are - a) remove the possibility of the hazardous failure mode occuring or b) remove the source of ignition. As b is as yet unknown, a has to come first.
regards
sw
'then surely it is a logical decision to cease AAR soties' - I agree completely. My point was that we shouldn't over-egg the issues by trying to compare apples and oranges - ie serviceability vs risk.
Having established that there is a failure mode that can occur in a system that was S when the ac took off, and that this failure mode is hazardous (production of fuel mist) in the presence of an ignition source, the options are - a) remove the possibility of the hazardous failure mode occuring or b) remove the source of ignition. As b is as yet unknown, a has to come first.
regards
sw
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Nige,
I'm not out to pre-judge the BOI on the 3 day decision, because I know how hard it is to get the first signal out. And my experience was with everyone surviving, ADRs and a non-hostile environment (well as non-hostile as Lincs gets
) They may have had nothing to go on, and the nature of the beast is that it wants positive evidence at that point.
sw
I'm not out to pre-judge the BOI on the 3 day decision, because I know how hard it is to get the first signal out. And my experience was with everyone surviving, ADRs and a non-hostile environment (well as non-hostile as Lincs gets
) They may have had nothing to go on, and the nature of the beast is that it wants positive evidence at that point.sw
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MadMark!!!
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Mad mark AAR ops have been stopped!
As the BOI is very unlikely to find the cause of the crash and in light of the more recent refuelling problems I think it is very sensible to cease AAR ops.
What is very difficult however is that if a definitive fault isn't discovered ( I don't think so ) then where does the nimrod go from here? without positive evidence of the fault (s) how can AAR ops ever resume? if they do not resume operations will suffer and the men on the ground will once again be even more exposed and under supported.
As the BOI is very unlikely to find the cause of the crash and in light of the more recent refuelling problems I think it is very sensible to cease AAR ops.
What is very difficult however is that if a definitive fault isn't discovered ( I don't think so ) then where does the nimrod go from here? without positive evidence of the fault (s) how can AAR ops ever resume? if they do not resume operations will suffer and the men on the ground will once again be even more exposed and under supported.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The hose was full of fuel at full trail. When the receiver engaged and pushed forward the fuel in th ehose has to go somewhere. The somewhere used to be in to the receiver. Only a few pounds at a time but several prods later was sufficient to extend the range of the receiver and shorten the pubrise time for the tanker.
AAR
I believe the hose of the tanker has to be pressurized with fuel to stop it flapping about in the airflow and keep it vaguely steady. Again, I too may be talking rubbish but that's what I've been led to believe.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Now I can come clean with a clear conscience. My training was with Valiant tankers and the story was true. Not only did the receiver collect what was in the hose, but the Valiant used to crack the transfer pumps for a moment as well.
