Parliamentary Questions concerning Hercules Safety
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More PQs
Found this one from James Gray.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire):To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how many of the Hercules C130J and C130K fleet have been fitted with explosive suppressant foam; and when the rest of the fleet are expected to be fitted with it.
If he had read Ingram's earlier answer he would have seen that the first one has not been completed yet. I understand that there is overwhelming backing for improving Hercules protection within the RAF. Also understand DEC and IPT are working round the clock. I haven't requested a PQ to be asked for a while and aside from asking for J upgrade have no plans for the moment. Hopefully critical staff will now be able to concentrate on the job in hand. We are all working to the same aim. The reason for the 2nd letter was due to the criticism from Ingram for being single source. Hope you understand, good luck with the mods.
Regards,
NG
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire):To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how many of the Hercules C130J and C130K fleet have been fitted with explosive suppressant foam; and when the rest of the fleet are expected to be fitted with it.
If he had read Ingram's earlier answer he would have seen that the first one has not been completed yet. I understand that there is overwhelming backing for improving Hercules protection within the RAF. Also understand DEC and IPT are working round the clock. I haven't requested a PQ to be asked for a while and aside from asking for J upgrade have no plans for the moment. Hopefully critical staff will now be able to concentrate on the job in hand. We are all working to the same aim. The reason for the 2nd letter was due to the criticism from Ingram for being single source. Hope you understand, good luck with the mods.
Regards,
NG
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Originally Posted by flipster
Scroggs (and, in turn, Danny),
I can see your POV but I also believe you have, inadvertently, missed a vital point.
This campaign is totally apolitical - it is only about fellow aviators being put in harm's way - without the proper level of support and protection. The sad fact is that the military 'top brass' are rather reticent, so we have had to by-pass them and target their 'masters'.
These fellow aviators, whom we are all seeking to help, are our brothers and sisters - figuratively and, perhaps, literally in some cases.
Surely, the least we can do is help highlight their predicament? I would have hoped that we could count on the unconditional support of PPrune?
However, no-one is asking PPrune to actually endorse the campaign - only to help raise awareness of the campaign's existence.
You could add a disclaimer, if you so wish.......but I think you won't.
After all, each and every one of us is from the same mould - we have all been infected with the joy of flying and we all share the same desire to 'slip the surly bonds', in some way or form.
The brave souls who are risking their necks in-theatre are our family and I'm absolutely sure we won't want to let them down. Please tell me I'm right?
Flipster
I can see your POV but I also believe you have, inadvertently, missed a vital point.
This campaign is totally apolitical - it is only about fellow aviators being put in harm's way - without the proper level of support and protection. The sad fact is that the military 'top brass' are rather reticent, so we have had to by-pass them and target their 'masters'.
These fellow aviators, whom we are all seeking to help, are our brothers and sisters - figuratively and, perhaps, literally in some cases.
Surely, the least we can do is help highlight their predicament? I would have hoped that we could count on the unconditional support of PPrune?
However, no-one is asking PPrune to actually endorse the campaign - only to help raise awareness of the campaign's existence.
You could add a disclaimer, if you so wish.......but I think you won't.
After all, each and every one of us is from the same mould - we have all been infected with the joy of flying and we all share the same desire to 'slip the surly bonds', in some way or form.
The brave souls who are risking their necks in-theatre are our family and I'm absolutely sure we won't want to let them down. Please tell me I'm right?
Flipster
While the campaign deserves (in my opinion) the widest coverage, it is encumbant on the publishers of any given journal or media to decide what is the appropriate place and style of such coverage. Your, and this forum's, focus is naturally on military aircrew, but there are many, many others who are affected by this issue. Pprune is not empowered or intended to speak to the wider, non-aviation, population, thus this issue, however important to us as individuals, must remain in the place where it has most relevance to our readership - Military Aircrew.
There are many, many issues which I'd love to raise in front of an audience as articulate, intelligent and influential as Pprune's - HIV/AIDS, starvation in Africa, globalisation of trade and its side-effects, climate change, EU expansion... the list goes on - but they are simply not appropriate for this site, however important they are to however many people. The political (and it is political) issue of the protection of our serving personnel is one for the wider population, and should be discussed in all those forums and media where such things are appropriate. The specific issue of the fitment of ESF to British military transport aircraft is appropriate to those places where those affected, those campaigning and those needing to be influenced can and do congregate. In the very limited context of Pprune, that is this very forum.
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Ah yes, Scroggs you are quite right, this issue is also about the passengers and supernumerary crew and concerned fellow aviators, aviatrix and enthusiasts. After all, fire in fuel tanks concerns the whole the aviation community - why do think Boeing and Airbus make such a song and dance about switching off the fuel pumps in mostly empty centre tanks? Foam or OBIGGS would solve that problem, too.
Therefore, the awareness of this issue should NOT be confined to simply 'Military Aircrew'.
Surely then, however, you would have to agree to giving this issue a wider circulation on PPRune.....as humbly requested?
....I rest my case, m'lud!
Therefore, the awareness of this issue should NOT be confined to simply 'Military Aircrew'.
Surely then, however, you would have to agree to giving this issue a wider circulation on PPRune.....as humbly requested?
....I rest my case, m'lud!
Last edited by flipster; 10th Jun 2006 at 11:26.
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I have just received a letter from Mr Gray stating that he is also concerned with the rate of fitment of ESF and has written to Des Browne to press for urgent fitment of the foam. While we must welcome Mr Gray's interest (a bit of a leap forward for him), he does not go so far as to ask for ALL ac to be fitted, or even other fleets - sadly!
Nonetheless, he is getting the message that we are not happy and his interest can only add to the prressure on the MoD to 'crack on'.
As they say, every little helps!
Nonetheless, he is getting the message that we are not happy and his interest can only add to the prressure on the MoD to 'crack on'.
As they say, every little helps!
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well, the day is nearly upon us where i meet with my friends and start the ball rolling for the next part of the campaign. i want to keep it online for a little longer but i'm unable to definitely say that will happen as mfaw are the hosts to the petition. thankyou, for the helpful suggestions. i will try to post on the thread either tomorrow night or on monday. so watch this space!! i'm going to try and get the petition into the house of commons and see if my MP friends are still prepared to help. i'm getting a little doubtful and concerned about how definite that offer is! i'm hoping for it to end up in canada in the next week, thanks to my patients family. anyway, i'll be back soon. what do people think about me sending the petition to CO of lyneham asking him to circulate it for me! or, should i let him just have the finished product? i've decided on sending it to blair,des browne and gordon brown. seeing as we need him to cough up some spondoolicks!!!
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It might be amusing to watch his face!
However, I think it would be a token-gesture as I don't think we could ever expect him to circulate the petition.
On the other hand, asking for signatures in the immediate 'local area' might get more support!
However, I think it would be a token-gesture as I don't think we could ever expect him to circulate the petition.
On the other hand, asking for signatures in the immediate 'local area' might get more support!
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chappie
Continued good luck with your efforts. Please, however, bear in mind the likely “Nu Labour” treatment of your petition unless you arrange the most artful and wide ranging pre-release publicity, thus preventing Bliar and new Brown cloned Defence Secretary, Des Browne, the opportunity to give it the “treatment”, below.
Private Eye No. 1158
nigegilb
Very pleased that you are now an avid Spectator reader. You may also wish to run your eye over selected writings of an august Spectator contributor, Dr Theodore Dalrymple, at this site. Dr. Dalrymple casts a jaundiced eye over modern Britain and, in particular, the effect on civil society of nine glorious years under the Bliar terror. Happy reading!
PS. chappie. You mention:
Perhaps you should ask them to put forward an “Early Day Motion” – defined as follows:
Continued good luck with your efforts. Please, however, bear in mind the likely “Nu Labour” treatment of your petition unless you arrange the most artful and wide ranging pre-release publicity, thus preventing Bliar and new Brown cloned Defence Secretary, Des Browne, the opportunity to give it the “treatment”, below.
Private Eye No. 1158
A week before his promotion to Home Secretary, John Reid was striking a heroic pose in his constituency by leading protesters who handed over a 50,000-signature petition against the closure of the A&E unit at Monklands hospital, Airdrie.
Reid took a rather different view of protests against NHS cuts when he was Health Secretary. In May 2004 he received a 10,000-signature petition in defence of threatened maternity units at Devizes and Malmesbury – only to send it straight back, refusing to get involved. A year later, while he was visiting Gloucestershire royal hospital, campaigners handed him a 2,000-signature petition on behalf of a children’s ward in Cheltenham. The petitioners never heard from him – and a few weeks later their petition was found dumped in a skip!
Reid took a rather different view of protests against NHS cuts when he was Health Secretary. In May 2004 he received a 10,000-signature petition in defence of threatened maternity units at Devizes and Malmesbury – only to send it straight back, refusing to get involved. A year later, while he was visiting Gloucestershire royal hospital, campaigners handed him a 2,000-signature petition on behalf of a children’s ward in Cheltenham. The petitioners never heard from him – and a few weeks later their petition was found dumped in a skip!
Very pleased that you are now an avid Spectator reader. You may also wish to run your eye over selected writings of an august Spectator contributor, Dr Theodore Dalrymple, at this site. Dr. Dalrymple casts a jaundiced eye over modern Britain and, in particular, the effect on civil society of nine glorious years under the Bliar terror. Happy reading!
PS. chappie. You mention:
(I will) try and get the petition into the house of commons and see if my MP friends are still prepared to help
An Early Day Motion, or EDM, is a motion put down ("tabled") by Members of Parliament calling for a debate on a particular subject. In practice, there is rarely time to debate EDMs nowadays and their true modern-day purpose is to enable MPs to draw attention to an issue and to canvass support for their views by inviting other Members to add their signatures in support of the motion. Members may table amendments to existing EDMs.
Last edited by highcirrus; 11th Jun 2006 at 10:51.
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update
well, that was interesting.
i'm now the press officer for mfaw!!! oh my gawd! i like a challenge. i've been getting grief from a particular journalist from a newsagency and i'm looking forward to depriving her of any information as a result of her inability to take what i say as the truth. i've made some good contacts over the last few months so that should help. once this exclusivity period is over i'll be on the phone to lots of papers. it was pointless entering the contract as there was not the coverage she promised me. it didn't even go overseas, which is why i signed. oh well, we all make mistakes i did'nt even get paid. just hassle! sorry for the rant. i needed to vent.
well, i'm keeping the petition on for a while longer. i've managed to get twenty signatures in the last 24 hours on paper and there has been 30 on the e-version. please remind those who have yet to sign.
i've taken on board suggestions of who to send the finished result to. those suggested AOC 2 Gp, chiefs of staff + defence. the ministers suggested also. i'm thinking of trying to do something at the labour party conference.
i know that the local paper swindon advertiser wanted to do something about the story (petition) how local that is to the community of lyneham? i can send paper versions down but i need support down there. i've tried to contact the lyneham village web page but been unsuccesful. i need someone down there to do what i've done up here. i've copies in the local bakery,post office, supermarket etc. any offers to help tout it down there for me please. the phone number for local bbc radio please.
i'll be asking for support in a lobby of parliament. watch this space...again.
i'm now the press officer for mfaw!!! oh my gawd! i like a challenge. i've been getting grief from a particular journalist from a newsagency and i'm looking forward to depriving her of any information as a result of her inability to take what i say as the truth. i've made some good contacts over the last few months so that should help. once this exclusivity period is over i'll be on the phone to lots of papers. it was pointless entering the contract as there was not the coverage she promised me. it didn't even go overseas, which is why i signed. oh well, we all make mistakes i did'nt even get paid. just hassle! sorry for the rant. i needed to vent.
well, i'm keeping the petition on for a while longer. i've managed to get twenty signatures in the last 24 hours on paper and there has been 30 on the e-version. please remind those who have yet to sign.
i've taken on board suggestions of who to send the finished result to. those suggested AOC 2 Gp, chiefs of staff + defence. the ministers suggested also. i'm thinking of trying to do something at the labour party conference.
i know that the local paper swindon advertiser wanted to do something about the story (petition) how local that is to the community of lyneham? i can send paper versions down but i need support down there. i've tried to contact the lyneham village web page but been unsuccesful. i need someone down there to do what i've done up here. i've copies in the local bakery,post office, supermarket etc. any offers to help tout it down there for me please. the phone number for local bbc radio please.
i'll be asking for support in a lobby of parliament. watch this space...again.
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Most of the people of Swindon will know of the Hercules - the final approach to the main runway at Lyneham goes right over the middle of Swindon and Wootton Bassett and the overshoot towards Chippenham. Whether the residents of those erstwhile conurabtions like the noise of Albert remains to be seen. However, most would be mortified to hear that the lives of the crews and their passengers were being put at undue risk.
Try the following to get help with the petition
http://www.eveningadvertiser.co.uk/
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/index.php
http://www.wiltshiregazetteandherald.co.uk
More of us could write too if that helps - though I suspect they would not appreciate being swamped!
There must be more but that's all I can think of right now, sorry! I think nige might have some more contacts...........cue
Try the following to get help with the petition
http://www.eveningadvertiser.co.uk/
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/index.php
http://www.wiltshiregazetteandherald.co.uk
More of us could write too if that helps - though I suspect they would not appreciate being swamped!
There must be more but that's all I can think of right now, sorry! I think nige might have some more contacts...........cue
Last edited by flipster; 12th Jun 2006 at 09:14.
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Bob Constantine broadcast journalist at Central South is knowledgeable on the subject.
Zoe Mills ( chief reporter) at Wilts Gazette and Herald has covered the Herc crash from the start.
BBC West I believe you already know. Mike Powell has taken a personal interest, but he has moved on. Not sure who is covering the subject now.
Both BBC and HTV covered the petition on the news with me whilst you were on holiday. They gave out details of the MFAW Website. Not sure if they will want to cover it again so soon. No harm in trying.
Regards,
NG
Zoe Mills ( chief reporter) at Wilts Gazette and Herald has covered the Herc crash from the start.
BBC West I believe you already know. Mike Powell has taken a personal interest, but he has moved on. Not sure who is covering the subject now.
Both BBC and HTV covered the petition on the news with me whilst you were on holiday. They gave out details of the MFAW Website. Not sure if they will want to cover it again so soon. No harm in trying.
Regards,
NG
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thanks for the suggestions.
i spoke with bob constantine and somone else as both bbc and htv were in contact while i was in holiday. in fact i came back during the middle of it to do tv link ups that were to be shown down your end at the time they contacted you nige. i'm guessing from the sound of it they didn't feature my interviews in either channels broadcast which is a bit rich and annoying as i messed up the holiday and was the one to action the petition so sounds like it was a waste of time. i've no intention of revisiting sources already accessed.
i would appreciate though any direct access to the community of lyneham both on base and off. i'll be contacting familiy memebers who i'm in contact with to action the paper version into the community. i need as much help as i can get. links to the petition and/or the paper version from every local source. i can't think of any other source that i need to contact unless of course there is something that i've not thought about. if so feel free to tell me.
my MP friend has gone to ground which i'm sad to say. maybe because he is friends with des that might be the reason. shame really. not that i'm giving up. this is not a quick fix solution. this whole process takes time. i've learnt over the past 24 hours that it is almost protocol that the MOD deny requests from you and state they've met you when they haven't. so game on. i'll just re apply again and again. i'll have to get the media to help me also. so i do hope they've not been foolish to think that i'm going to go away.
until the 25th june i'm unable to speak to papers, although the contract isn't worth the paper it's written on and i get questioned relentlessly over things i've not done that it's bordering on harassment but if the offer to contact them on my behalf is there please help, flip. ta.
nearly 2100 signatures on internet version. not including the paper version. still download the paper version and take it round the family get the mums/dads at the school gate etc to sign. anyone and everyone please.
i spoke with bob constantine and somone else as both bbc and htv were in contact while i was in holiday. in fact i came back during the middle of it to do tv link ups that were to be shown down your end at the time they contacted you nige. i'm guessing from the sound of it they didn't feature my interviews in either channels broadcast which is a bit rich and annoying as i messed up the holiday and was the one to action the petition so sounds like it was a waste of time. i've no intention of revisiting sources already accessed.
i would appreciate though any direct access to the community of lyneham both on base and off. i'll be contacting familiy memebers who i'm in contact with to action the paper version into the community. i need as much help as i can get. links to the petition and/or the paper version from every local source. i can't think of any other source that i need to contact unless of course there is something that i've not thought about. if so feel free to tell me.
my MP friend has gone to ground which i'm sad to say. maybe because he is friends with des that might be the reason. shame really. not that i'm giving up. this is not a quick fix solution. this whole process takes time. i've learnt over the past 24 hours that it is almost protocol that the MOD deny requests from you and state they've met you when they haven't. so game on. i'll just re apply again and again. i'll have to get the media to help me also. so i do hope they've not been foolish to think that i'm going to go away.
until the 25th june i'm unable to speak to papers, although the contract isn't worth the paper it's written on and i get questioned relentlessly over things i've not done that it's bordering on harassment but if the offer to contact them on my behalf is there please help, flip. ta.
nearly 2100 signatures on internet version. not including the paper version. still download the paper version and take it round the family get the mums/dads at the school gate etc to sign. anyone and everyone please.
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Chappie,
I didn't see the broadcasts the other week. Could be they used your input. I too was on holiday! I am sure someone saw them. I have the distinct impression that Lyneham personnel are having to remain tight lipped at the mo. I also have the impression that they are happy for us to continue the fight. In particular the J. Don't want to say more here. I will try the Lyneham village website. They have posted an article about the foam controversy.
I didn't see the broadcasts the other week. Could be they used your input. I too was on holiday! I am sure someone saw them. I have the distinct impression that Lyneham personnel are having to remain tight lipped at the mo. I also have the impression that they are happy for us to continue the fight. In particular the J. Don't want to say more here. I will try the Lyneham village website. They have posted an article about the foam controversy.
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chappie
Below is a list of Wiltshire MPs, surrounding Lyneham, taken from the UK Parliament Website.
I wouldn’t be too worried about your tame MP going to ground as he/she (Anne Snelgrove?) is a buddy of Brownite Def Sec. Des Browne. Just contact the others and explain your position, request a meeting and mention an Early Day Motion. Any or all should be able to fit you into a weekly “surgery” rather than you having to go up to the Commons. You will be able to contact them either by email here or by letter/telephone here. Do not be afraid to approach them – they are your representatives and your servants and they know that you can make life very difficult for them if they do not take you seriously – especially as your brother was a casualty.
I would imagine that the majority, being Conservative MPs, will be absolutely delighted to support your cause and wreak havoc with the present “government”. Better be quick though, before the summer recess.
Finally, I have in the past organised a lobby campaign with a cross party selection of MPs – all were absolutely delighted at the prospect of easy personal publicity and brownie points with their constituency voters! I'd guess that things have not changed too much in the intervening years.
Wiltshire (County including Swindon unitary authority)
Devizes Rt Hon Michael Ancram, Earl of QC (Con)
North Swindon Mr Michael Wills (Lab)
North Wiltshire Mr James Gray (Con)
Salisbury Robert Key (Con)
South Swindon Anne Snelgrove (Lab)
Westbury Dr Andrew Murrison (Con)
Keep at it and continued good luck,
Below is a list of Wiltshire MPs, surrounding Lyneham, taken from the UK Parliament Website.
I wouldn’t be too worried about your tame MP going to ground as he/she (Anne Snelgrove?) is a buddy of Brownite Def Sec. Des Browne. Just contact the others and explain your position, request a meeting and mention an Early Day Motion. Any or all should be able to fit you into a weekly “surgery” rather than you having to go up to the Commons. You will be able to contact them either by email here or by letter/telephone here. Do not be afraid to approach them – they are your representatives and your servants and they know that you can make life very difficult for them if they do not take you seriously – especially as your brother was a casualty.
I would imagine that the majority, being Conservative MPs, will be absolutely delighted to support your cause and wreak havoc with the present “government”. Better be quick though, before the summer recess.
Finally, I have in the past organised a lobby campaign with a cross party selection of MPs – all were absolutely delighted at the prospect of easy personal publicity and brownie points with their constituency voters! I'd guess that things have not changed too much in the intervening years.
Wiltshire (County including Swindon unitary authority)
Devizes Rt Hon Michael Ancram, Earl of QC (Con)
North Swindon Mr Michael Wills (Lab)
North Wiltshire Mr James Gray (Con)
Salisbury Robert Key (Con)
South Swindon Anne Snelgrove (Lab)
Westbury Dr Andrew Murrison (Con)
Keep at it and continued good luck,
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Of those posted above.
Michael Ancram is on record saying he would not have voted for Iraq war knowing what he does now.
Robert Key pushed Ingram very hard on 07 Mar and is on HCDC
James Gray has received flack from relatives and constituents recently. Knowing you Chappie I think you could use force of personality on him!
Further afield. David Taylor (Lab) asked these PQs recently.
David Taylor (North West Leicestershire):To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his oral Answer of 22nd May 2006, Official Report, column 1183, on Iraq, what the minimum standard is for body armour on land vehicles used by British troops in Iraq.
David Taylor (North West Leicestershire):To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his oral Answer of 22nd May 2006, Official Report, column 1183, on Iraq, what assessment has been made of the effectiveness of composite fibreglass in protecting the occupants of Land Rovers used by the British military for patrol purposes in Iraq.
I have spoken with his office and he is sympathetic to lack of protection issues. One of his constituents was killed in a fibre glass land rover.
Another MP worth trying is Adam Holloway (Con).. He has ( I think) flown in theatre on a herc and is keen to understand the situation.
Liam Fox is very switched on and I believe on side.
Finally I suggest you send a copy to Mike Hancock and James Arbuthnot. HCDC are very worried about the lack of proitection on the Herc. I am sure they would listen to you.
I would not worry too much about which party they belong to. I have learnt that it is the person that matters the most.
Michael Ancram is on record saying he would not have voted for Iraq war knowing what he does now.
Robert Key pushed Ingram very hard on 07 Mar and is on HCDC
James Gray has received flack from relatives and constituents recently. Knowing you Chappie I think you could use force of personality on him!
Further afield. David Taylor (Lab) asked these PQs recently.
David Taylor (North West Leicestershire):To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his oral Answer of 22nd May 2006, Official Report, column 1183, on Iraq, what the minimum standard is for body armour on land vehicles used by British troops in Iraq.
David Taylor (North West Leicestershire):To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to his oral Answer of 22nd May 2006, Official Report, column 1183, on Iraq, what assessment has been made of the effectiveness of composite fibreglass in protecting the occupants of Land Rovers used by the British military for patrol purposes in Iraq.
I have spoken with his office and he is sympathetic to lack of protection issues. One of his constituents was killed in a fibre glass land rover.
Another MP worth trying is Adam Holloway (Con).. He has ( I think) flown in theatre on a herc and is keen to understand the situation.
Liam Fox is very switched on and I believe on side.
Finally I suggest you send a copy to Mike Hancock and James Arbuthnot. HCDC are very worried about the lack of proitection on the Herc. I am sure they would listen to you.
I would not worry too much about which party they belong to. I have learnt that it is the person that matters the most.
Last edited by nigegilb; 12th Jun 2006 at 13:46.
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Andrew Bartles Our government treats our armed forces personnel with thinly disguised contempt. The Hercules incident is an absolute disgrace.
Well said that man too
2114
Andrew Bartles Our government treats our armed forces personnel with thinly disguised contempt. The Hercules incident is an absolute disgrace.
Well said that man too
2114
Last edited by nigegilb; 12th Jun 2006 at 16:47.
URGENT - maybe!
If anyone is online at this hour of the day (0700 BST), Today on Radio 4 is interviewing Defence Secretary Brown at about 0750. I have reminded them they asked Reid a good ESF question (which resulted in his admission that "it might have helped") in his last interview with them, and pleaded with them to do it to the new guy. Don't know whether it'll work this time - but we can but hope.
airsound
airsound
A very poor interview - and almost impossible to understand Dismal Desmond's barely coherent mumbling over a low quality phone line....
No questions put to him about ESF....
No questions put to him about ESF....
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i'll have to contact radio four and ask them what they're playing at. every time i see des browne the more i worry about our armed forces future. he seems to be terrified to take responsibility for anything and i suspect has the minimal amount of testosterone to make him a man. spineless doesn't come close. he has no passion, no impetus, no nothing. he seems to make shirking responsibility into an art form. he is however, a really worried man and i think we've got him over a barrel, feeling the pressure.