Air Training Corps
Animosity between CCF/RAF sections and ATC is because of the perception the CCF get more 'perks' eg helicopters for big exercises plus they get an experienced regular SNCO who does all the Camp Commandant work for them at camp (and bl**dy good they are too - I took a handover from one at Manston once and he'd done a splendid job, whereas the CCF Sqdn Ldr who should have been CC really hadn't done much at all).
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That may have been the root, but I think it is long lost in history.
The main reason for the animosity is because the ATC normally have to pick up the pieces when we follow a CCF(RAF) section onto a summer camp
In the end, they all do pretty much the same thing, are part of the same organization and are equally likely to put the regulars' noses out of joint.
The main reason for the animosity is because the ATC normally have to pick up the pieces when we follow a CCF(RAF) section onto a summer camp
In the end, they all do pretty much the same thing, are part of the same organization and are equally likely to put the regulars' noses out of joint.
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I'd love to disagree with the last two comments, but sadly there is something in them...
Though I'd like to think that we don't leave that much of a mess - we did follow on behind another CCF camp last year, though, which was evidently a disaster!
Tim
Though I'd like to think that we don't leave that much of a mess - we did follow on behind another CCF camp last year, though, which was evidently a disaster!
Tim
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Regardless of ranting between the two organisations, both are an asset to modern day society! The amount of kids that, instead of standing on street corners drinking white lightning and abusing old women, are doing something worth while, whilst frequently helping out with local organisations and charities.
I was a cadet for 7 years, before going on to much better things (getting paid to fly!). I will always have a soft spot for the ATC as it was through activities participated with them that put me where I am now - as I hadn't been on a UAS at the time of my application.
Staff wise there are some total idiots out there. I can name several right here and now. However we shouldn't use them to bring the whole ACO down. I know guys who when on a station feel embarrassed to be saluted by WO's with several decades of full time experience. To be fair, quite rightly so!! I would be!! However there are those who abuse that, and make themselves and others that wear the VR(T) look like total tw@ts.
Just my pennies worth, long live the ACO.
TMA
I was a cadet for 7 years, before going on to much better things (getting paid to fly!). I will always have a soft spot for the ATC as it was through activities participated with them that put me where I am now - as I hadn't been on a UAS at the time of my application.
Staff wise there are some total idiots out there. I can name several right here and now. However we shouldn't use them to bring the whole ACO down. I know guys who when on a station feel embarrassed to be saluted by WO's with several decades of full time experience. To be fair, quite rightly so!! I would be!! However there are those who abuse that, and make themselves and others that wear the VR(T) look like total tw@ts.
Just my pennies worth, long live the ACO.
TMA
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The Mother Aligator is dead right, and that is the reason I feel that Air Cadet officers should not hold commissions. They are youth leaders, and no more than that. Instead, if they had a sudo military uniform and status as I have suggested earlier, they would still be able to do the job they do in the same way they do it now, but the hangers on would soon leave, and the remaining excellent majority would be able to get on with the job. When on annual camp, or other visits to RAF stations, our people would give them respect, help and advice as they do now, but without the niff naff and trivia that tends to cause the problems many of the previous posters have stated. More power to the Air Cadet organisation, but let's have the reforms suggested to improve it for the 21st century.
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I don't think you can ask people to run the organisation without giving them the authority to do so. Authority in the military boils down to to a piece of script compelling the holder to act in accordance with his Commission. There is nothing else other than a Royal Warrant which carries some weight plus the respect serving individuals afford the holder. The Air Training Corps is a military organisation with the flexibility to embrace many modern aspects of society, it does not need to be watered down and the VRT must retain its status to function.
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Hold on a sec.... what about the ACF? Or the SCC? They dont have a full commission do they, yet they get the job done? Having a Royal Warrant means nothing in all honesty - as you say, its a bit of paper! Its how you work on the ground, how you interact with the regular Air Force (or Army, or Navy), and how they perceive you that matters. If you are seen to do a good and worthwhile job, then you'll get the help and respect you deserve. If you are seen to be an oxygen waster first class, throw your rank around, and wind everyone up, then you have to expect the flack and lack of co-operation that would go with it!
As for VGS instructors.... Why do you feel you need a VRT commission?? What does it honestly give you that a lord lieutenants commission wouldn't? What would you lose if you were simply a civvy? You'd still get the flying suit and shades....?
As for VGS instructors.... Why do you feel you need a VRT commission?? What does it honestly give you that a lord lieutenants commission wouldn't? What would you lose if you were simply a civvy? You'd still get the flying suit and shades....?
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I agree with Skytrucker. I think that changing the structure away from the RAF would place the Corps in very real danger. It would have implications for provision of accommodation, insurance, travel, uniform... the list goes on and on. I may not like absolutely everything about it these days (far too much useless paperwork & political correctness to start!), but I still very much want my kids to have an ATC to join. I might even be persuaded to climb back into a blue suit at the time.
Tim - for what it's worth, I have never had much trouble with CCF (& trust I've not caused them any!).
And to everyone who has added to this thread - the real tragedy is that the people who are causing the grief are not here. They're out there somewhere busily not listening.
One thing before I go - a few years ago the ACF had a TV, poster & (I think) cinema campaign for staff & cadets. Wouldn't it be great if HQAC would do something similar...?
edited to add....
Plod - some ACF apparently hold a Queen's Commission in the TA. Not quite sure how it works though. Sea Cadets I've heard get very little support from the Navy in any way, shape or form (of course happy to be corrected). ACF units are affiliated to a particular regt/corps & often have TA help too. ATC unless I'm mistaken are a part of the RAF.
Tim - for what it's worth, I have never had much trouble with CCF (& trust I've not caused them any!).
And to everyone who has added to this thread - the real tragedy is that the people who are causing the grief are not here. They're out there somewhere busily not listening.
One thing before I go - a few years ago the ACF had a TV, poster & (I think) cinema campaign for staff & cadets. Wouldn't it be great if HQAC would do something similar...?
edited to add....
Plod - some ACF apparently hold a Queen's Commission in the TA. Not quite sure how it works though. Sea Cadets I've heard get very little support from the Navy in any way, shape or form (of course happy to be corrected). ACF units are affiliated to a particular regt/corps & often have TA help too. ATC unless I'm mistaken are a part of the RAF.
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Please dont get me wrong here - the ATC NEEDS to be closely associated with the RAF, and yes, part of its structure. But why place so much emphasis on a queens commission? Do ATC SNCOs really have more of a problem interacting with the RAF than VRT bods do? Same uniform, same ranks, but not part of the RAF? What would we lose by being ATC officers rather than VRT ones? Does the uniform make the difference, or is the attitude of the person IN the uniform the key to better support and co-operation?
Where am I coming at this from? I'm a commissioned VRT Officer. I've got no axe to grind here, and I take my rank and position seriously - I am sadly very proud to be an officer in the VRT! I'm not pretending to be anything other than a VRT officer though, and as you've said AP - none of those types appear to be on here!! Shame - they'd probably learn something if they opened their ears.
Where am I coming at this from? I'm a commissioned VRT Officer. I've got no axe to grind here, and I take my rank and position seriously - I am sadly very proud to be an officer in the VRT! I'm not pretending to be anything other than a VRT officer though, and as you've said AP - none of those types appear to be on here!! Shame - they'd probably learn something if they opened their ears.
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The ATC is run by an RAF Air Cdre who is AOC Air Cadets. He has a small HQ staffed by uniformed reservists . These guys are full time ATC admin. This then works down to Regions, each with a uniformed, but retired (therefore also reservist) Group Capt. He and his small admin staff look after the Wings which have a VR(T) Wg Cdr and a J class reservist Sqn Ldr and a couple of civi staff. The rest of the Wing staff are VR(T) as are the Sqn staff, assisted of course by Civi Instructors (CI's) At Sqn and Wing level (maybe above that, but not sure of my facts on this bit) are Civi committees, run generally but not always so by parents of the cadets. No civi committee means the Sqn has to close, so these are important groups. They raise the funds that all ATC Sqns need, but which fall outside the RAF input.
In this half sevice, half civilian organisation, the work gets done, and very efficiently too. Why therefore is it considered a problem to make it all civilian, with a sudo military rank structure. There are pleanty of civilians running the RAF these days (SERCO etc) so why will it be a problem if the VR(T) loose their commissioned status?
In this half sevice, half civilian organisation, the work gets done, and very efficiently too. Why therefore is it considered a problem to make it all civilian, with a sudo military rank structure. There are pleanty of civilians running the RAF these days (SERCO etc) so why will it be a problem if the VR(T) loose their commissioned status?
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RayDarr - you've forgotten a major component of the ATC squadron structure - the ATC SNCO's. They are not part of the VRT, and I suspect would fit nicely into the category you are describing...
However, coming at this from another direction now... personally I dont see a problem with us being VRT officers - has worked, and still works. Were we to go ATC, again I would see no great problem - I'm doing this for the cadets, and for my own enjoyment - NOT for the uniform... my wife hates it.....
But why so worried about whether we are VRT or civvy? Nothing as such would change - uniform, ranks, etc. We just wouldn't have a bit of paper... What other effects do you see such a status change having?
However, coming at this from another direction now... personally I dont see a problem with us being VRT officers - has worked, and still works. Were we to go ATC, again I would see no great problem - I'm doing this for the cadets, and for my own enjoyment - NOT for the uniform... my wife hates it.....
But why so worried about whether we are VRT or civvy? Nothing as such would change - uniform, ranks, etc. We just wouldn't have a bit of paper... What other effects do you see such a status change having?
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Postman Plod,
Yep, I forgot about the new SNCO structure. Our local Sqn dosen't have any as yet, but I was aware.
Now, the threads below have pointed out that these is a small, but very obvious, section of the VR(T) who like to swan about the place being "Orfficers" This annoys the parent service, especially the airmen who have to grit their teeth and call these people sir, salute and so on. It also annoys the good guys in the VR(T), of whom I freely admit, there are many who see these people doing all they can to promote their own position at the expense of the cadet movement and their peers. My solution is to remove their power base i.e. the commission they so obviously relish so much. The average Sqn Cdr or Sqn Officer is doing what he does for the benefit of the cadets, therefore he/she won't care at all . The RAF, while still being polite, will now be spared the bulls**t, and the poseurs, having nothing left to pose about, will go and find something else to do. The expected result is that the wasters go away so allowing the Air Cadets to do what they do best more efficiently, and with more fun. I strongly believe that saying we can't get volunteers of the right calibre, or "The training is not good enough" is not an excuse (paraphrased from previous threads). If they are not good enough, don't take them, and if the training is poor improve it. Getting in the wrong people trained to the wrong standard is bad for the kids.
Oh yes, some VGS bod wanted to know if this applies to them as well. Well yes of course it does. I am not aware of any theory of flight which prevents gliders working unless flown by people with VR(T) commissions.
By the way, we have 3 of these pieces of paper on our wall. My regular RAF one, my RAuxAF one and Mrs Darr's VR(T) one.
Yep, I forgot about the new SNCO structure. Our local Sqn dosen't have any as yet, but I was aware.
Now, the threads below have pointed out that these is a small, but very obvious, section of the VR(T) who like to swan about the place being "Orfficers" This annoys the parent service, especially the airmen who have to grit their teeth and call these people sir, salute and so on. It also annoys the good guys in the VR(T), of whom I freely admit, there are many who see these people doing all they can to promote their own position at the expense of the cadet movement and their peers. My solution is to remove their power base i.e. the commission they so obviously relish so much. The average Sqn Cdr or Sqn Officer is doing what he does for the benefit of the cadets, therefore he/she won't care at all . The RAF, while still being polite, will now be spared the bulls**t, and the poseurs, having nothing left to pose about, will go and find something else to do. The expected result is that the wasters go away so allowing the Air Cadets to do what they do best more efficiently, and with more fun. I strongly believe that saying we can't get volunteers of the right calibre, or "The training is not good enough" is not an excuse (paraphrased from previous threads). If they are not good enough, don't take them, and if the training is poor improve it. Getting in the wrong people trained to the wrong standard is bad for the kids.
Oh yes, some VGS bod wanted to know if this applies to them as well. Well yes of course it does. I am not aware of any theory of flight which prevents gliders working unless flown by people with VR(T) commissions.
By the way, we have 3 of these pieces of paper on our wall. My regular RAF one, my RAuxAF one and Mrs Darr's VR(T) one.
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I totally agree with you RayDarr, Im not a VGS officer I'm a CGI and in my experience some of the worst culprits for swanning around have been VGS officers!
Flying suits and sunglasses have a lot to answer for. There are of course some good eggs as well.
Flying suits and sunglasses have a lot to answer for. There are of course some good eggs as well.
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Without interrupting the conversation, I'd just like to add that I was a CCF Cadet Flt Sgt who joined the RAF and had 22 excellent years flying many of Her Majesty's finest airborne toys. In that time I never had occasion to complain or moan about any ATC/CCF staff. I think that's a pretty decent record.
I would love to be involved in my local ATC, but sadly Mr Branson's airline's rostering makes my free time totally unpredictable. But big respec' to those of you that do give up so much of your spare time to help the kids understand and enjoy aviation and its associated skills. I very much hope that my own children will be able to take advantage of your generosity when they're old enough.
Scroggs
I would love to be involved in my local ATC, but sadly Mr Branson's airline's rostering makes my free time totally unpredictable. But big respec' to those of you that do give up so much of your spare time to help the kids understand and enjoy aviation and its associated skills. I very much hope that my own children will be able to take advantage of your generosity when they're old enough.
Scroggs
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Scroggs
I'm sure if you made contact with your local squadron they'd still welcome even the odd appearance. My daughter's squadron has a number of serving NCOs who pop down when they can (ie when not in sandpit) and help with lessons etc. and their irregularity is never a problem.
I'm sure if you made contact with your local squadron they'd still welcome even the odd appearance. My daughter's squadron has a number of serving NCOs who pop down when they can (ie when not in sandpit) and help with lessons etc. and their irregularity is never a problem.
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Originally Posted by background
Raydarr, do you think VGS instructors should still get a VRT commision or are they "youth leaders" as well?