Air Training Corps

[Squirrel 41]

SW London Air Cadets?

Evening everyone...

I was a cadet and I'm now in RAuxAF and would be happy to teach some aircraft recognition for the local Sqn, if they would find this useful. Could someone PM me with a number for the OC of the Barnes or Richmond Sqns? I found the air cadet website pretty unhelpful.

Thanks

S41

[Vulpecula]

VRT Officers

Peeps,

Many thanks to you all for your thoughts and comments; I will certainly take them ALL on-board as I have decided to accept. I am sure further comments will be made on this, and I shall keep a keen eye on the future developments on this discussion line.

My thought’s on this matter are; I wouldn’t dream of collecting salutes, annoying regular forces or even “uniform posing”, and I can see very clearly that the VRT is far removed from the regular forces. In RayDarr’s comment regarding a different uniform and not holding a Queen’s commission I agree. I would also agree that a figurehead in a squadron is also needed to keep discipline and order. I would only consider leaving if the changes enforced little or no Royal Air Force involvement or it becomes a youth club.

Oh, and I am only desperate to win a lot of money, retire to somewhere warm, and drink iced beer with Mrs Vulpecula…

Just for the record, I again was a cadet of over five years and have a lot to thank the forces for. The enthusiasm for the Royal Air Force is as strong then as it is now.

[chevvron]

Picture this. RAFGSA club at an RAF airfield. ATC open up for an operational movement, and instruct the GSA to suspend operations temporarily. Member of GSA goes to ATC and sees Fg/Off as duty controller, and says 'my rank is Wg Cdr and I want to keep the gliders flying longer'. In fact he's RAFVR(T), which means he's substantive Fg/Off, which duty controller is well aware of.
This actually happened, and it's the sort of thing gets VR(T) a bad name.

[background]

Erm, you don't get VRT officers in the GSA!

[boswell bear]

Originally Posted by background

Erm, you don't get VRT officers in the GSA!

Yes you do

[chevvron]

Nothing to stop a VR(T) officer joining the GSA. This guy was OC of an ATC wing.

[Tiger_mate]

It wouldnt have mattered had the local controller been a Sgt, if he says the airfield is shut then shut it is. Less his supervisor wants to assume the role.

It is silly things like this that stick forever, whereas the "good" is easily forgotten. .........and the VR(T) OC who boasts how he is a real officer (Queens commision) compared to Lord Lt Commisions in the ACF has no idea how silly he is making himself. You know who you are!

If you didnt go through OASC, and graduate from IOT you can pretend all you like, you will never be the real thing. Being a VR(T) Officer has an analogy with the SAS, the real thing has no need to boast, and therefore wont!

[aluminium persuader]

Hi all.

Some very interesting stuff here. Here's my ha'pp'orth;


First and foremost, the ATC is for the kids, not the staff. It is meant to foster a spirit of adventure (Venture Adventure?) and air-mindedness in them, not to mention responsibility & citizenship. To get all this through to the cadets is incredibly hard work, week-in, week-out, year-in year-out, unpaid and unthanked. The job is much harder than anything anyone reading this does, believe me! The uniformed staff, especially the officers, deserve a lot of respect for the work they do. Of course there are some numpties and some to whom the uniform give delusions of grandeur but these are a minority. When you meet them give them help, not ridicule. Change their attitude, don't berate it. Most RAF servicemen & women are ex-cadets and whether or not they realise it owe a lot to these volunteers.

I would also like to see the demise of the VR(T) branch, but only because it emphasises a gulf. Rather, I would like to see air cadet officers badged as RauxAF and given more training, not less. A basic fitness level would be a start, and perhaps educational minima, but most importantly some training with regulars. Most civvy occupations have some equivalency in the forces - why not offer some "work experience"? Why not get ATC sqn adj's to spend time with regular sqn adj's, OCs with OCs? It would work the other way too - couldn't those personnel on careers office postings also be seconded to an ATC sqn? When I was an ATC sqn boss I had no adj and nearly sank under the paperwork. I would have given anything to have an admin/sec type to help me. If you're a regular reading this, I urge you to find an ATC sqn & offer some help. I know with postings & OOA commitments it can be hard, but please do what you can. One caveat, though; remember that there are laws applying to the care of children which must be borne in mind, & try not to let your enthusiasm run away with you!

For what it's worth; I was (very briefly) a cadet, only joining at 18. Then a CI, VR(T) & eventual sqn CO. I "retired" a few years ago because my mife & I both work shifts & the arrival of small children left no spare time at all. Albeit civvy-licensed, I am an air trafficker on a military base working to RAF rules & regs. I have even been seen once or twice controlling in uniform with VR(T) tabs. That made the aircrew raise an eyebrow or two!!

ap.

[incubus]

Another one here to 'fess up and show my true colours as a member of the ATC, but not VR(T) - more on that later.

I totally agree that more training should be available for Air Cadet staff but I'd put forward that it needs to be self-provisioned. Realistically, there is very little to gain from the work experience you mention as the similarities between the role of a CO on a cadet squadron and a CO at an RAF unit can be pretty marginal (you will be aware of this, AP; others may not.) The ACO is not merely a little air force but it is a very different beast. In fact, some of the trouble we see is because ex-shineys are appointed to high level posts with little or no understanding of what it is to be a volunteer and to help run a squadron full of actual cadets. Whilst fitness should be encouraged (as in any company), we aren't required to be combat ready and having a basic fitness requirement beyond breathing and mobile is an unnecessary limitation

Having the VR(T)s there helps to keep the link between the ACO and the parent service and I think is a valuable thing. Unfortunately, there are nobbers who are in it for the ego (same as the RAF ) but there are many more good souls and I echo the sentiment that the focus needs to be on the cadets.
That link would still be there as oggies (and it would be easier to integrate my own branch...) but are there not other complexities that go with being a member of the RAuxAF? If we can just beat the offenders with a stick until we readjust their attitude, we would achieve the same with less hassle.

My branch? I am an Adult Warrant Officer (part of the the Adult SNCO side of the ACO which now includes ASgts and AFSs) - I'm curious to know if they cause confusion or hassle to the regulars or if we are on the whole a little more well behaved. We aren't VR(T) or auiliary - we are actually in the ATC in the same way as the cadets themselves are - effectively civilians in RAF uniform.

[hobbit1983]

Originally Posted by aluminium persuader

Rather, I would like to see air cadet officers badged as RauxAF and given more training, not less. A basic fitness level would be a start, and perhaps educational minima, but most importantly some training with regulars. Most civvy occupations have some equivalency in the forces - why not offer some "work experience"? Why not get ATC sqn adj's to spend time with regular sqn adj's, OCs with OCs? It would work the other way too - couldn't those personnel on careers office postings also be seconded to an ATC sqn?

Bearing in mind that a lot of VR(T) officers can struggle to get enough time off work to do annual camps anyway - they have to get time off from work in the first place, leaving less for the family, and an employer's attitude can vary and any extra (almost certainly) unpaid leave would be at their whim.

It would be a very good idea! but IMHO would not work due to VRTs not being able to commit to it. Plus, would they have a call-up commitment? Whether that would be a good thing or not, it would probably put a lot of people off.

[batfink2]

Originally Posted by aluminium persuader

Rather, I would like to see air cadet officers badged as RauxAF and given more training, not less.

Very true! But, as hobit says, the caveat to release them from call-up duties! With regards to training - absolutely! It's well needed - but amongst all staff - not just VRTs. At present I'm a CI doing the job of Training Officer, but also part-time Squadron Adj too. Do I get training in this? Not until I put on a Blue suit - but right now, I'm simply not ready for it - yet I'll continue to fulfil these executive officer roles because of the Corps being so short staffed!!

It's true that many VRTs & SNCOs struggle to get time off to do activities as it is. The Corps is driven by volunteers who normally have to give up their own holiday to do these events. For VRT's & SNCOs they can claim pay - but employers rarely support leave for "youth clubs". A simple, if slightly dubious way forward, would be transferring the VRT stream so that they are eligible for full Reserve Forces leave under SaBRE - something which more employers will recognise than a simple "Air Cadets" statement.

Originally Posted by aluminium persuader

A basic fitness level would be a start..

I thought you were trying to encouarge people to join! I can see a great many deaths if we ever try and get half the VRT's I can think of to do a squat thrust - let alone a BFT!!!
Mind you - in this respect I have heard a couple of rumours from Cranditz regarding some people being rejected from DI's courses because of their tubby tummies! To be a DI you need to command the respect of the troops - and they simply don't respect fatties... or so I'm told!!!

Originally Posted by aluminium persuader

and perhaps educational minima, but most importantly some training with regulars. Most civvy occupations have some equivalency in the forces - why not offer some "work experience"? Why not get ATC sqn adj's to spend time with regular sqn adj's, OCs with OCs? It would work the other way too - couldn't those personnel on careers office postings also be seconded to an ATC sqn? When I was an ATC sqn boss I had no adj and nearly sank under the paperwork. I would have given anything to have an admin/sec type to help me.

I think cross-training with regulars would be hugely beneficial at all levels. One of our Sqn VRT's is going away with the Rockapes shortly on a cross training course - trying to learn about fieldcraft, the roll of the rockapes and doing some practicals with them. This sort of activity is essential in allowing us to accurately inform the gadgets about the RAF.

At present your uniformed staff need only present themselves at Cranditz for a single week long course in order for them to pass their course. This is the only time which they are REQUIRED to set foot upon an RAF Station. They might spend the next X years mincing around the Corps without even seeing an RAF Station! How is this kind of person meant to enlighten and enthuse an Air-minded young person when they have only 1 weeks experience of the Air Force (when even that is in the vacuum of RAFC Cranwell!).

Although, as Hobbit points out, this can be scuppered and crippled by peoples lack of leave. However, I would imagine that there are as many people that would jump at the opportunity as there is those who will have leave issues!!!

[RayDarr]

A vey old joke tells me that a Regular officer, is an officer trying to be a getleman, a RAuxAF officer, is a gentleman trying to be an officer, while a VR is neither trying to be both. How rude!!!
I am sure that if any member of the VR(T) would like to join the RAuxAF, even for 5 years, the experience passed on will be very useful. It is possible to be in both organisations as neither cut across the needs of the other. However, as pointed out below, the RAuxAF are subject to call up, and if the letter falls on your mat, it is too late to resign. You go to the RAF, or to jail.
Just for info, most Sqns (can't speak for all) will only bring a new entrant in as a direct entry officer, if they have held commissioned rank in the RAF. Everyone else joins in the ranks, irrespective of their qualifications. After they have served 18 months or so, and have demonstrated their committment, they are invited to apply for a commission should they wish. From then on, we follow much the same process for selection for IOT. Applicants, then complete a "distance learning" course, and follow it up with 2 weeks at Cranditz before returning for a final long weekend for final exams. The whole deal takes about 18 months, and is by no means an easy option. Our people then follow standard RAF professional training courses, but in weekend sized chunks. It takes a long time, but our trained people should be able to do much the same job as a regular serviceman, given a short refresher, and orientation into the station to which he/she is sent.
I am sure the RAuxAF would welcome as many ex cadets, or members of ATC adult staff who might want to come along.

[chevvron]

Ray Darr: you forgot to add that policy in your local wing was to post new officers to another sqdn when they become commisioned.

[tmmorris]

Can I just stick my head above the parapet and put a good word in for CCF RAF sections? I know the CCF is tiny compared to the ATC (though we are older), but it does seem to have fewer wannabes - perhaps because few of us are true 'volunteers', having been press-ganged by a headmaster desperate to fill the post. Admittedly this can lead to some poorly-motivated VR(T) officers, but they can be weeded out on the one-week course (yes, people do fail this - one did on mine). So far, all the CCF VR(T)s I've come across do a good job and are not in it for the imagined kudos, or the posing around in uniform or in the mess.

Some of them can be spotted as a teacher at 100 paces, mind you...

Tim
(CCF VR(T) Fg Off)

[mgdaviso]

Originally Posted by RayDarr

I am sure the RAuxAF would welcome as many ex cadets, or members of ATC adult staff who might want to come along.

and where the heck would we find the time in between running the country's finest youth organisation, earning a living, and satisfying the needs of the family?
In reality, the RAFAux are training for War, we on the other hand are doing a completly different job. Yes I can see a benefit of sharing admin/sec and regiment stuff, but other than that ????
I would like to see the RAF VR(T)'s initial training regime come more into line with the RAFAux's as previously described in RayDarr's post.

Originally Posted by chevvron

Ray Darr: you forgot to add that policy in your local wing was to post new officers to another sqdn when they become commisioned.

Was RaYDarr not talking about RAFAux Sqn's?

Batfink2 - is that batfink from ACC? If so, Oz Here.

[batfink2]

Originally Posted by mgdaviso

Batfink2 - is that batfink from ACC? If so, Oz Here.

Roger that... thought it about time I got some grown up banter!

[Postman Plod]

Sheesh - get back into your own playpen boys - the mods on ACC might get upset with you using other forums!!!!

Have to agree with mgdaviso/oz, I cant see the RAuxAF being a suitable umbrealla for the ATC - we do 2 completely different jobs, and I cant see where the time be available to fit in both. 2 parade nights a week, plus RAuxAF commitments? Call up? Fitness? Remember what your stereotypical VRT Officer / NCO looks like....!

To be fair, I dont think the VRT are pretending to be anything other than uniformed youth leaders with attitude - well not generally anyway... If we were auggies, you wouldn't know where we stood within the organisation. As we are VRT, you know exactly what we are and what we do.

[mgdaviso]

Originally Posted by Postman Plod

Remember what your stereotypical VRT Officer / NCO looks like....!

Speaking for yourself there mate?

Originally Posted by Postman Plod

To be fair, I dont think the VRT are pretending to be anything other than uniformed youth leaders with attitude - well not generally anyway...

- Nope that's the Army Cadets

[BigGrecian]

Please do not forget that according to MOD figures 60% of Commission Holders and 75% of Non Commissioned personnell are ex-Air Cadets. So step out of the closet and be proud of your past!

Not a recruiting organisation as well - I recall being told at a training establishment not too long ago.
Oh and don't forget the CCF - believe they have a higher commission uptake but that's probably by virtue of where they're placed.

[tmmorris]

Oh and don't forget the CCF- believe they have a higher commission uptake

Historical - most CCFs started out as OTCs and were expressly for the training of officers. This, of course, is the root of the long-standing animosity between us and the ATC, plus the fact that we're older...

Tim