Air Training Corps
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If the RAFVR(T) were to go, it could be replaced by a similar system used by the ADDC (predecessor of the ATC for the uninitiated) The adult staff in those days wore RAF style uniforms, but rank braid was (I think) black They were able to operate alongside the RAF, but were not commissioned. The previously mentioned GVC works in much the same way. Rank titles would need changing and an ATC officers cap badge would need designing, but this is easy stuff. The effect on the kids would be nil. ATC still doing what it always has, in much the same way as before. Effect on posers would be significant, as they no longer have a Commission Scroll to frame above the fire place, and are no longer able to strut around RAF bases claiming salutes from the troops. Makes accommodation at camp easier as the adult staff could be placed more easily in Sgts Mess accommodation, that is if there is any to spare. I expect the politics will still go on, but the guys at the sharp end will have to sort that out.
As for RAF greatcoats.. a fine piece of kit but likely to bring blushes to the cheeks of Mrs Darr, an ex GVC cadet, and my frau for well over 30 years .
As for RAF greatcoats.. a fine piece of kit but likely to bring blushes to the cheeks of Mrs Darr, an ex GVC cadet, and my frau for well over 30 years .
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Ex cadet and ex Regular RAF SNCO, did the 22 year thing and am now a newly commissioned virtual reality Plt Off, who feels somewhat a fraud.
Ex regulars are indeed a minority, and if it wasn't for my enthusiasm for the RAF and ATC I wouldn't have bothered either because of the muppetry holding VR(T) rank. However it's the troops that make it worthwhile and it would not be untrue to say that for the first time in a long while I have experienced real satisfaction since committing to the ACO, something that eluded me for the best part of my last 10 or so years in the RAF.
The adult staff on my sqn are all excellent and the wing staff all appear fully committed and supportive, clearly I have encountered some real chimps but you quickly learn to tune them out and they do thin out rapidly when squared up to. When I was doing my 'Pre-Uniform Course' we had a knobber of an ex Adult Warrant Officer(AWO) that was coming back in to the ACO who had the gaul to declare that the ATC AWO course was harder than anything a regular Warrant Officer would experience. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt!!
To date I haven't come across any of the 'Old Boy' mentality, although I
heard the old chestnut that RAF experience doesn't count in the ACO!
As for RayDarr's suggestions, I've pondered this myself many times. For example my next door neighbour is a dedicated adult volunteer with the scouts. He doesn't get anywhere near the kind of benefits I am entitled to and furthemore doesn't want them, he does his thing because he really wants to. I wonder how many members of the ACO would too in similar circumstances?
I've just given my lovely greatcoat away to my brother in laws girly - brass buttons too!
However she is a classically trained professional dancer 
Ex regulars are indeed a minority, and if it wasn't for my enthusiasm for the RAF and ATC I wouldn't have bothered either because of the muppetry holding VR(T) rank. However it's the troops that make it worthwhile and it would not be untrue to say that for the first time in a long while I have experienced real satisfaction since committing to the ACO, something that eluded me for the best part of my last 10 or so years in the RAF.
The adult staff on my sqn are all excellent and the wing staff all appear fully committed and supportive, clearly I have encountered some real chimps but you quickly learn to tune them out and they do thin out rapidly when squared up to. When I was doing my 'Pre-Uniform Course' we had a knobber of an ex Adult Warrant Officer(AWO) that was coming back in to the ACO who had the gaul to declare that the ATC AWO course was harder than anything a regular Warrant Officer would experience. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt!!
To date I haven't come across any of the 'Old Boy' mentality, although I
heard the old chestnut that RAF experience doesn't count in the ACO!
As for RayDarr's suggestions, I've pondered this myself many times. For example my next door neighbour is a dedicated adult volunteer with the scouts. He doesn't get anywhere near the kind of benefits I am entitled to and furthemore doesn't want them, he does his thing because he really wants to. I wonder how many members of the ACO would too in similar circumstances?
I've just given my lovely greatcoat away to my brother in laws girly - brass buttons too!
However she is a classically trained professional dancer
AIR TRAINING CORPS
I WAS LUCKY TO BE IN THE ATC BEFORE THE WOOLY PULLIES CAME IN.
WENT FROM UNDER AGE CADET TO GLIDING INSTRUCTOR (AS DID MANY OTHERS) AND HAD A GREAT TIME.THE POINT IS THAT THE ORGANISATION GAVE (AND STILL DOES) AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET INVOLVED IN ALL SORTS OF ACTIVITIES ON TOP OF THE FLYING, AND IT HAS PROVED ITS WORTH TO THE COMMUNITY OVER THE YEARS.I WINCE A LITTLE WHEN I SEE THE STANDARD OF TODAYS MARCHING, BUT ITS A SMALL PRICE TO PAY.IT IS A DIFFICULT TIME FOR YOUTH ORGANISATIONS TO GET ADULT HELPERS, AND YET THE CORPS FLYS ON INTO THE FUTURE!! GOOD LUCK.
WENT FROM UNDER AGE CADET TO GLIDING INSTRUCTOR (AS DID MANY OTHERS) AND HAD A GREAT TIME.THE POINT IS THAT THE ORGANISATION GAVE (AND STILL DOES) AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET INVOLVED IN ALL SORTS OF ACTIVITIES ON TOP OF THE FLYING, AND IT HAS PROVED ITS WORTH TO THE COMMUNITY OVER THE YEARS.I WINCE A LITTLE WHEN I SEE THE STANDARD OF TODAYS MARCHING, BUT ITS A SMALL PRICE TO PAY.IT IS A DIFFICULT TIME FOR YOUTH ORGANISATIONS TO GET ADULT HELPERS, AND YET THE CORPS FLYS ON INTO THE FUTURE!! GOOD LUCK.
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I am an RAFVR(T) but in my youth I did 30 weeks IOT ( 18 weeks and then 12 more I was having SO much fun!!!) I would agree that there are some VR(T) who are a complete disgrace but also there are some who have just never been taught.....it is difficult to teach in 1 hour the CESR lessons I learnt over many weeks.
I try and ensure that any candidate I put forward for a commission will uphold the traditions and behaviour which I hold very dear...
There are some of us out here who are trying hard not to let the side down.
I try and ensure that any candidate I put forward for a commission will uphold the traditions and behaviour which I hold very dear...
There are some of us out here who are trying hard not to let the side down.
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Originally Posted by L-H
Ex cadet and ex Regular RAF SNCO, did the 22 year thing and am now a newly commissioned virtual reality Plt Off, who feels somewhat a fraud.
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VRT Officers
Okay, must admit I am a civvy through and through who was recommended by my CO to be a VRT Officer. Have bags of experience in a technical trade in civvy street and thought what the hell, give it a go. After reading RayDarr’s and other comments which I believe to be valuable, I find I am in a dilemma! Should I simply remain a C.I. or go for it?
Simple fact: When attending courses on RAF Stations in the past, I have been treated VERY courteously. Mess bill’s VERY cheap, and the best part was the conversations in the bar. Okay the price of the beer was excellent as well!!!
What I don’t want to do is trade this for a position where I would be considered third rate, and at best an annoyance to everyone from AC and above. Your thought and comments welcome…
Simple fact: When attending courses on RAF Stations in the past, I have been treated VERY courteously. Mess bill’s VERY cheap, and the best part was the conversations in the bar. Okay the price of the beer was excellent as well!!!
What I don’t want to do is trade this for a position where I would be considered third rate, and at best an annoyance to everyone from AC and above. Your thought and comments welcome…
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mgdaviso,
Dunno really, probably because I know what the selection and training process is to gain a regular commission that I feel that I've sneaked in through the back door. I'm sure that as I settle in it will pass.
Dunno really, probably because I know what the selection and training process is to gain a regular commission that I feel that I've sneaked in through the back door. I'm sure that as I settle in it will pass.
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Vulpecula,
It all depends on what you want to get out of it! As a CI, you have very little input on the running of the organisation, but on the plus side, you can devote more time to the kids, without the hassle of rank politics!
Also, as we used to joke, CI was the highest rank in the ATC - in theory noone can tell you what to do - they can ask you politely, but not tell you
I was happy to remain a CI, purely so I didn't have to get involved in the politics that seemed to come with a uniform in the wing I belonged to, but then, I had an excellent CO on the Sqn, who valued his CIs more than, it seamed, Wing did. He let us have a great deal of input at Sqn level, which was fine by me!
Perhaps someone who has taken the plunge from CI to VRT/AWO would care to give their perspective on the matter - I feal my experience is rather biased toward staying a civvi!
Edit - forgot to mention VRT Officers on RAF Camps. As a serving airman now, I have only come across VRT officers once since joining the mob, and had no problem with them at all, perhaps because I knew who/what they were. However, I do feel that a lot of the negativity within the serving ranks is due to lack of knowing who/what they really do! That and possibly the un-coolness of saying cadets IS a worthwhile organisation and not just a bunch of pesky kids that turn up once a year at summer and nick your scoff in the airman's mess!
It all depends on what you want to get out of it! As a CI, you have very little input on the running of the organisation, but on the plus side, you can devote more time to the kids, without the hassle of rank politics!
Also, as we used to joke, CI was the highest rank in the ATC - in theory noone can tell you what to do - they can ask you politely, but not tell you
I was happy to remain a CI, purely so I didn't have to get involved in the politics that seemed to come with a uniform in the wing I belonged to, but then, I had an excellent CO on the Sqn, who valued his CIs more than, it seamed, Wing did. He let us have a great deal of input at Sqn level, which was fine by me!
Perhaps someone who has taken the plunge from CI to VRT/AWO would care to give their perspective on the matter - I feal my experience is rather biased toward staying a civvi!
Edit - forgot to mention VRT Officers on RAF Camps. As a serving airman now, I have only come across VRT officers once since joining the mob, and had no problem with them at all, perhaps because I knew who/what they were. However, I do feel that a lot of the negativity within the serving ranks is due to lack of knowing who/what they really do! That and possibly the un-coolness of saying cadets IS a worthwhile organisation and not just a bunch of pesky kids that turn up once a year at summer and nick your scoff in the airman's mess!
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Originally Posted by L-H
mgdaviso,
Dunno really, probably because I know what the selection and training process is to gain a regular commission that I feel that I've sneaked in through the back door. I'm sure that as I settle in it will pass.
Dunno really, probably because I know what the selection and training process is to gain a regular commission that I feel that I've sneaked in through the back door. I'm sure that as I settle in it will pass.
I guess it depends on your attitude - I know of a few VR(T)'s who like to think that they are on a par with serving Officers, but don't even come close, but these are in the minority.
I'm sure you'll settle in well - ex-regular personnel are needed amongst our ranks to help keep things focused on what our parent service actually do, and they bring gallons of good stuff to the organisation.
Vulpecula;
Do what you feel is best for you. Do not be pressurised into going for a VR(T) commission because your CO "needs you" in uniform.
The two jobs are very different.
My advice:
pop on over to http://www.aircadetcentral.net/forums where you'll find loads of information, and be able to ask any questions you like.
HTH
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Crowborough anyone? 
I was in the ATC (joined in 1986) - left twice!
Mine (358) was one of those squadrons where all we did was bloody drill!
We had a right stern character for a warrant officer too - a New Zealander called Bob Taylor - fearsome bloke, but we all respected him.
Mind you - in 1990 we went to Oshkosh to marshall aircraft - stood in the middle of an airfield with a massive thuinderstorm rolling in - I was at 6' 3" t. the tallest thing for miles! We were flown from Mildenhall to Dover, Delaware in a C5! That was cool!
Chipmunks and gliding - happy days (if you ignore the drill)
Should be compulsory for the C-H-A-Vs to join (ACF for the real knuclkeheads!) - might give them discipline sadly lacking in the home!
I was in the ATC (joined in 1986) - left twice!
Mine (358) was one of those squadrons where all we did was bloody drill!
We had a right stern character for a warrant officer too - a New Zealander called Bob Taylor - fearsome bloke, but we all respected him.
Mind you - in 1990 we went to Oshkosh to marshall aircraft - stood in the middle of an airfield with a massive thuinderstorm rolling in - I was at 6' 3" t. the tallest thing for miles! We were flown from Mildenhall to Dover, Delaware in a C5! That was cool!
Chipmunks and gliding - happy days (if you ignore the drill)
Should be compulsory for the C-H-A-Vs to join (ACF for the real knuclkeheads!) - might give them discipline sadly lacking in the home!
Air Training Corps
All good stuff and valid opinions on here guys (and gals) but please do not forget what the "V" stand for in VR(T).
Having been commisioned for close on 16 years (statement of fact not a boast) I would agree with Raydarr that you do get the occasional numpty through the system. However having spent an equal number of years as a Civil Servant with the MoD I can catagorically state that both the full timers in the services nor the civil servants are immune from that malise nor for that matter is the outside world. The advantage that the RAF/RN & Army has is that it has a system called Initial Training covering several months in place to weed out the majority of the c*&p. The VR(T) has no such system only having 1 week IOT courses to turn a civilian into an officer. Any rough edges are then left to the individual squadrons/wings to be knocked off. You get a further 1 weeks Senior Officer training on or about the time you may take over a squadron and that is the sum of your officer training! About time some refresher course were mandated every couple of years to assist with the developement of OLQ's.
As to getting rid of the RAFVR(T), Raydarr, was your good lady proud to wear her uniform and hold the Queens Commision?
I am certainly proud to wear mine or is that a crime in your eyes sir?
If you dispense with the VR(T) you will lose a great deal of staff I fear, not because they wish to "ponce around" in messes as you put it but because they are proud to wear that uniform, be part of the RAF and to pass that pride and self respect onto the cadets.
The cadets themselves appreciate the link with the RAF and a number (whatever it is) do go on to join both the air force as well as the other services having recieved a positive impression of service life from (amongst others) the adult staff on the squadron.
If you wanted to ensure a better class of VR(T) officer I would strongly suggest a better and longer training regime possibly run over a series of weekends to avoid clashing with the day job. In addition were a condition of service that individuals took on some form of reserve liability then I suspect that some of the potential posers that have been alluded to would think again.
Happy of course to take the flack on this, but if you can't take a joke you should not have joined!
(Climbs down off soapbox)
Having been commisioned for close on 16 years (statement of fact not a boast) I would agree with Raydarr that you do get the occasional numpty through the system. However having spent an equal number of years as a Civil Servant with the MoD I can catagorically state that both the full timers in the services nor the civil servants are immune from that malise nor for that matter is the outside world. The advantage that the RAF/RN & Army has is that it has a system called Initial Training covering several months in place to weed out the majority of the c*&p. The VR(T) has no such system only having 1 week IOT courses to turn a civilian into an officer. Any rough edges are then left to the individual squadrons/wings to be knocked off. You get a further 1 weeks Senior Officer training on or about the time you may take over a squadron and that is the sum of your officer training! About time some refresher course were mandated every couple of years to assist with the developement of OLQ's.
As to getting rid of the RAFVR(T), Raydarr, was your good lady proud to wear her uniform and hold the Queens Commision?
I am certainly proud to wear mine or is that a crime in your eyes sir?
If you dispense with the VR(T) you will lose a great deal of staff I fear, not because they wish to "ponce around" in messes as you put it but because they are proud to wear that uniform, be part of the RAF and to pass that pride and self respect onto the cadets.
The cadets themselves appreciate the link with the RAF and a number (whatever it is) do go on to join both the air force as well as the other services having recieved a positive impression of service life from (amongst others) the adult staff on the squadron.
If you wanted to ensure a better class of VR(T) officer I would strongly suggest a better and longer training regime possibly run over a series of weekends to avoid clashing with the day job. In addition were a condition of service that individuals took on some form of reserve liability then I suspect that some of the potential posers that have been alluded to would think again.
Happy of course to take the flack on this, but if you can't take a joke you should not have joined!
(Climbs down off soapbox)
Vulpecula
If you are desperate to wear the uniform, drink in the OM and collect salutes, then go for the commission. As a new Plt Off, you'll be expected to get involved more in the management side during parade nights (ie logging post
). Also, by becoming VR(T), chances are you will have to move Sqn.
If you want to stay involved in actually teaching cadets, then stay a CI.
If you are desperate to wear the uniform, drink in the OM and collect salutes, then go for the commission. As a new Plt Off, you'll be expected to get involved more in the management side during parade nights (ie logging post
). Also, by becoming VR(T), chances are you will have to move Sqn.If you want to stay involved in actually teaching cadets, then stay a CI.
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As an ex-cadet, I have to agree that the organisation can be ruined by the arrogance of some officers. I had the misfortune to join a Sqn run by such an officer, who it appeared was more concerned about his personal ambition of 'conquering' a mountain in every continent than anything aviation based. It is true too what is said about the 'in crowds'. During my time I found this generally to be staff members who clustered around the VR(T) officer.
I was a member for some 35 years when I was 'retired' by my Wg Cdr declining to sign my tour extension. I'd been Staff cadet at a VGS, the CI, then commisioned, then Squadron Commander, finishing as a WGLO covering two VGS and 22 squadrons. My wingco then decided I wasn't putting in my 8 hours/month (it was mostly done at weekends and I didn't attend the sqdn - was no longer OC).
Problem was I'd put my wingco's back up by participating in a project to put more 'Air' in Air Training Corps by offering microlight AEF; yes HQAC knew all about it and kept stats. but my wingco didn't agree with it and took the first opportunity to give me the heave, well before I was 55!
Problem was I'd put my wingco's back up by participating in a project to put more 'Air' in Air Training Corps by offering microlight AEF; yes HQAC knew all about it and kept stats. but my wingco didn't agree with it and took the first opportunity to give me the heave, well before I was 55!
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Ex Cdt Ex VRT (inc Sqn Boss) Ex ACLO (posted)
Been their and spent alot of time doing and then organising air cadet activities. First things first, I could never go back to it as it is very different to the real air force (don't start shouting all you VR(T) peeps out there.). The uniform is where the similarity ends. The majority of VR(T) officers have no real idea how the air force runs BUT the majority of regular officers have no idea what goes into the running of an ATC sqn day to day. I still take my hat off to those that are there for the cadets. There are those few idiots that bring the name down but thats upto the VR(T) officers to self police. I have had to take VR(T) to one side in the bar when I was ACLO and tell them to wind their neck in but then again I've had to do that with mates as well. My latest adventure is helping to run an AEF (stictched) and some of the officers are very dis-organised (bring cadets without logbooks signed etc) but its not their primary job.
Starting to get carried away. For those who are doing a good job (and you know who you are) well done.
Finally, I had 9 of my cadets join the air force in the last year I was VR(T). The last one I saw was a RAFP Cpl out in Pristina doing the arrivals. He would never have joined had it not been for the staff on that ATC Sqn at the time giving him the help and advice he needed then. (If he ever does me for speeding on a station I'll remind him what he used to be like!)
Been their and spent alot of time doing and then organising air cadet activities. First things first, I could never go back to it as it is very different to the real air force (don't start shouting all you VR(T) peeps out there.). The uniform is where the similarity ends. The majority of VR(T) officers have no real idea how the air force runs BUT the majority of regular officers have no idea what goes into the running of an ATC sqn day to day. I still take my hat off to those that are there for the cadets. There are those few idiots that bring the name down but thats upto the VR(T) officers to self police. I have had to take VR(T) to one side in the bar when I was ACLO and tell them to wind their neck in but then again I've had to do that with mates as well. My latest adventure is helping to run an AEF (stictched) and some of the officers are very dis-organised (bring cadets without logbooks signed etc) but its not their primary job.
Starting to get carried away. For those who are doing a good job (and you know who you are) well done.
Finally, I had 9 of my cadets join the air force in the last year I was VR(T). The last one I saw was a RAFP Cpl out in Pristina doing the arrivals. He would never have joined had it not been for the staff on that ATC Sqn at the time giving him the help and advice he needed then. (If he ever does me for speeding on a station I'll remind him what he used to be like!)
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Originally Posted by mgdaviso
My advice:
pop on over to http://www.aircadetcentral.net/forums where you'll find loads of information, and be able to ask any questions you like.
pop on over to http://www.aircadetcentral.net/forums where you'll find loads of information, and be able to ask any questions you like.