Gay Pride?
The only thing remotely canine about any of the 'race formerly known as WRAFs' of my particular acquaintance was that the nickname 'Lassie' might have been rather appropriate for one or two of them..... 
Last edited by BEagle; 1st Sep 2005 at 14:16.
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Scud-u-Like, funniest post so far... I like it!
Flap62: I am NOT going to accuse you of homophobia, as you raise a valid point. I think an equally-valid point is that I want to serve my country and have the right and ability to do so. I do not look at men lustfully in the shower block on exercises and ops. In fact, we all accord each other the degree of privacy and dignity to which we are all entitled. I mentioned earlier that the policy change is reliant to an extent on the goodwill and good behaviour of all it affects. That's why we have the Service Test. Let a gay man make moves on me in a shower block, and I can guarantee I'll be complaining as vocally as you would.
By the way, this post marks the first time I've used the word "homophobia" in 4 posts (including this one). I don't accuse people of homophobia lightly - it's a very strong, emotive term and I have yet to encounter someone who is genuinely homophobic.
After all, as so many people are proud to point out (usually after complainiang about gay personnel and emphasising their masculinity in whatever way they deem necessary)... we don't actually have a problem with homosexuals.
I've been impressed with the quality of this debate, and it's not been without some cracking banter. And Scud-u-Like's post (maybe you should submit it as a GEMS idea?). Good work all!
Flap62: I am NOT going to accuse you of homophobia, as you raise a valid point. I think an equally-valid point is that I want to serve my country and have the right and ability to do so. I do not look at men lustfully in the shower block on exercises and ops. In fact, we all accord each other the degree of privacy and dignity to which we are all entitled. I mentioned earlier that the policy change is reliant to an extent on the goodwill and good behaviour of all it affects. That's why we have the Service Test. Let a gay man make moves on me in a shower block, and I can guarantee I'll be complaining as vocally as you would.
By the way, this post marks the first time I've used the word "homophobia" in 4 posts (including this one). I don't accuse people of homophobia lightly - it's a very strong, emotive term and I have yet to encounter someone who is genuinely homophobic.
After all, as so many people are proud to point out (usually after complainiang about gay personnel and emphasising their masculinity in whatever way they deem necessary)... we don't actually have a problem with homosexuals.
I've been impressed with the quality of this debate, and it's not been without some cracking banter. And Scud-u-Like's post (maybe you should submit it as a GEMS idea?). Good work all!
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Indeed, we all have and are entitled to our prejudices, likes and dislikes. We are, however, expected to temper them, for the greater good of unit cohesion and out of respect for our fellow man.
For example, I am an atheist (I really am, by the way), who finds most judeo-christian dogma abhorrent and could, therefore, take great exception to the Service devoting resources to religious observance and to having uniformed Christian preachers appointed over me.
The solution: Get over it.
For example, I am an atheist (I really am, by the way), who finds most judeo-christian dogma abhorrent and could, therefore, take great exception to the Service devoting resources to religious observance and to having uniformed Christian preachers appointed over me.
The solution: Get over it.
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I could go on. What is a detco to do?
Flatulent Men (of any sexual orientation).
Everyone else.
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I recall during an officer selection exercise @ 150 potential officers of both sexes were being assessed.
In the finest traditions of the service after a 3 mile run in the rain and mud, we were pointed at the gym and told we had 3 minutes to be showered, changed into our suits / ladies' equivalent and be back outside ready to march off to the classroom and take the written exams.
On entering the gym there was one shower room @ 30' square with about 20 shower heads in it.
We all stripped off and jumped into the shower and started washing. It was only when the hairy-@rsed Jock RSM came in and nearly had an apoplectic fit that we realised that the girls had done exactly as the boys and we were all in the shower together.
It will obviously come as a surprise to Flaps62 that none of the gay or straight chaps had got excited in the shower, no women had thrust themselves upon the men (or vice-versa) and folk of both genders managed to bend down to pick up the shower gel and pass it around without the slightest fear of molestation.
These people who automatically assume they are God's gift to gay men (or straight women) never cease to amaze me.
Perhaps the table legs in the Flaps62 household are kept covered lest the sight of a well-turned Queen Anne ankle should cause such an upwelling of pent-up lust that he might lose a fly-button!
In the finest traditions of the service after a 3 mile run in the rain and mud, we were pointed at the gym and told we had 3 minutes to be showered, changed into our suits / ladies' equivalent and be back outside ready to march off to the classroom and take the written exams.
On entering the gym there was one shower room @ 30' square with about 20 shower heads in it.
We all stripped off and jumped into the shower and started washing. It was only when the hairy-@rsed Jock RSM came in and nearly had an apoplectic fit that we realised that the girls had done exactly as the boys and we were all in the shower together.
It will obviously come as a surprise to Flaps62 that none of the gay or straight chaps had got excited in the shower, no women had thrust themselves upon the men (or vice-versa) and folk of both genders managed to bend down to pick up the shower gel and pass it around without the slightest fear of molestation.
These people who automatically assume they are God's gift to gay men (or straight women) never cease to amaze me.
Perhaps the table legs in the Flaps62 household are kept covered lest the sight of a well-turned Queen Anne ankle should cause such an upwelling of pent-up lust that he might lose a fly-button!
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These people who automatically assume they are God's gift to gay men (or straight women) never cease to amaze me.
When I left the Service some 14 years ago, I realized that I had become somewhat of a Neanderthal. Any bloke with hair past his collar was a "fudge-packer" as were those with earrings. Strangely, from my cultural background, guys with long hair and multiple ear decorations was the norm. So whats a guy to do?
Me, I ended up with hair to my butt and 4 earrings.
Really gave me a basis of understanding what gays were going through. Guys that I'd been on ops with suddenly shunned me. Hair and rings are gone, BTW.Having had a few (damned Rhum thread on JB
) hope this makes sense. It ain't what a guy/gal does in private that matters (drugs excepted
). If they do the job, especially if done well, who the f^ck cares?
Perhaps the table legs in the Flaps62 household are kept covered lest the sight of a well-turned Queen Anne ankle should cause such an upwelling of pent-up lust that he might lose a fly-button!
Now, back to to Captain Morgan...
Rather confused now. Tablet - you say that you never look at men lustfully - why?
I can honestly say that if I were to be put in a shower-room full of women, I would definitely find the situation interesting. I like women and so would look at a naked one given the chance. You like men but say you wouldn't look at one. What happened to the "we're just the same as you, we just like men, that's all" banter.
Still haven't had a proper answer to how we're going to manage all these segragated facilities. The comments of "oh where are we going to draw the line" misses the point by a million miles. You talk about rights. Well as a heterosexual man, and let's not forget we are still by a very great margin the majority, I would demand the right to have seperate facilities from any gay personnel. Rights work both ways!
I can honestly say that if I were to be put in a shower-room full of women, I would definitely find the situation interesting. I like women and so would look at a naked one given the chance. You like men but say you wouldn't look at one. What happened to the "we're just the same as you, we just like men, that's all" banter.
Still haven't had a proper answer to how we're going to manage all these segragated facilities. The comments of "oh where are we going to draw the line" misses the point by a million miles. You talk about rights. Well as a heterosexual man, and let's not forget we are still by a very great margin the majority, I would demand the right to have seperate facilities from any gay personnel. Rights work both ways!
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If you were black would you be branded a racist if you demanded the 'right' of your children to be taught in 'one race' schools?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4326007.stm
The answer seems to be NO
Racism, like sexism and homophobia can always be thrown in the face of the white Anglo-Saxon Protestant hetrosexual Male - everyone else seems exempt
Fair doos - bad for one group, bad for all
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4326007.stm
The answer seems to be NO
Racism, like sexism and homophobia can always be thrown in the face of the white Anglo-Saxon Protestant hetrosexual Male - everyone else seems exempt
Fair doos - bad for one group, bad for all
Last edited by Maple 01; 2nd Sep 2005 at 00:07.
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Maple01
A lot of people, including some of those quoted in the bbc news article, clearly do think such action is racist.
I think most people know a bigot when they see one, regrdless of the bigot's religious, racial or sexual characteristics.
Flap62
What makes you think judging others by your own lecherous standards is going to provide you with an answer to your rather tedious and repetitive assertion?
A lot of people, including some of those quoted in the bbc news article, clearly do think such action is racist.
I think most people know a bigot when they see one, regrdless of the bigot's religious, racial or sexual characteristics.
Flap62
What makes you think judging others by your own lecherous standards is going to provide you with an answer to your rather tedious and repetitive assertion?
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Tablet,
Prove it. Or at least give some convincing evidence. By 'natural' I mean 'as nature intended'.
At what point did I say YOUR relationship is unstable? I did not single you out personally in this, nor would I. I admit perhaps that part of my post could have been worded better - what I was trying to convey was that gay relationships, WHEN TAKEN AS A WHOLE AND AGGREGATE STATISTICS ARE COLLECTED are MUCH less stable than normal relationships.
Please read my post again. You will notice I said things like:
And:
And:
I would happily work with you, and I genuinely don't care what you do with yourself in your own time.
16B
Homosexuality IS natural.
At what point did I say YOUR relationship is unstable? I did not single you out personally in this, nor would I. I admit perhaps that part of my post could have been worded better - what I was trying to convey was that gay relationships, WHEN TAKEN AS A WHOLE AND AGGREGATE STATISTICS ARE COLLECTED are MUCH less stable than normal relationships.
Please read my post again. You will notice I said things like:
I do not give one solitary sh1t about the sexuality of the bloke next to me - the only thing that concerns me is whether or not he can do his job.
As I said right from the off, I really don't care about a colleague's sexuality.
Edited to make clear: I am NOT intolerant or bigoted towards homosexuals, as I believe I have explained. I simply detest the politics of sexuality.
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The jury's still out on the 'nature or nurture' debate, but 'nature' seems to be slightly ahead these days.
Homosexual Link to Fertility
Non-human Animal Sexuality
"Sexy" Smells Different for Gay, Straight Men, Study Says
Homosexual Link to Fertility
Non-human Animal Sexuality
"Sexy" Smells Different for Gay, Straight Men, Study Says
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Scud, my point was that the 'ist' card is played whenever someone from the majority WASPH (invent your own social shorthand here) start talking about 'rights' or voices fears - whether or not those fears are accurate or demands reasonable - However, the same knee-jerk reaction doesn’t happen when those demanding 'rights' come from minority backgrounds - In the example I gave I didn't see the chap from the CRE condemned as a bigot, threatened with dismissal and ordered to undertake compulsory 'Equality and Diversity' training. Imagine a white headmaster making the same comments?
Stupidity and bigotry is an equal opportunity employer. ALL minorities also have their share of card carrying 'ists'. Perhaps it would be better to address ALL forms rather than the current concept that only White=racist/sexist/homophobic. Perhaps addressing the genuine concerns of that marginalized WASPH grouping and either showing that their fears are groundless, or doing something about the percieved social injustices might help and reduce the numbers sweapt into the arms of an ever greatful BNP
Stupidity and bigotry is an equal opportunity employer. ALL minorities also have their share of card carrying 'ists'. Perhaps it would be better to address ALL forms rather than the current concept that only White=racist/sexist/homophobic. Perhaps addressing the genuine concerns of that marginalized WASPH grouping and either showing that their fears are groundless, or doing something about the percieved social injustices might help and reduce the numbers sweapt into the arms of an ever greatful BNP
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Well, all I can say is that I have always known which way my sexuality was going and never made any choice concerning it. Sounds like that's the way nature intended for me. And as Scud points out, far more intelligent and expert people than you or I are rapidly coming to the conclusion that homosexuality is a part of nature. It's been in existence for thousands of years - and, indeed, it wasn't always the social evil it was considered to be not long ago. In Plato's Republic he set out an ordered list of human relationships based on the idea of forming a social hierarchy. And what was at the top? Homosexuals. In Ancient Greece it simply was not a problem. Where did we acquire our very different attitude? During the unenlightened Middle Ages. The first laws against homosexuality were enacted shortly after the Norman Conquest. And later on we developed other great ideas such as child labour, rampant sexism, slavery, and other concepts now discredited as contrary to natural justice.
Flap62, I think we can see here who needs to exert a little self control. I didn't say I don't always look at men lustfully, but I certainly don't exhibit your libidinous attitudes. I don't stand in a shower staring at other guys voyeuristically because that would go beyond the bounds of decency. If someone said they weren't happy showering with me, fine - we'd arrange a compromise. But most people don't have a problem.
Last time I was on exercise I was in a 12-man tent, sharing with a FS, Chf Tech, and 6 officers. None of them - including the 2 USMC officers so "indoctrinated", as you put it, in the ways of institutionalised discrimination against gay men, had an issue even though they know I'm gay. I didn't introduce myself as such (what an awfully rude thing to do!), but someone else had told them, in hushed tones, that they'd be sharing with a "fudge-packer", or one of your other delightful terms. They told him to f**k off and grow up.
Thank God I work with people who defend their friends and colleagues.
Flap62, I think we can see here who needs to exert a little self control. I didn't say I don't always look at men lustfully, but I certainly don't exhibit your libidinous attitudes. I don't stand in a shower staring at other guys voyeuristically because that would go beyond the bounds of decency. If someone said they weren't happy showering with me, fine - we'd arrange a compromise. But most people don't have a problem.
Last time I was on exercise I was in a 12-man tent, sharing with a FS, Chf Tech, and 6 officers. None of them - including the 2 USMC officers so "indoctrinated", as you put it, in the ways of institutionalised discrimination against gay men, had an issue even though they know I'm gay. I didn't introduce myself as such (what an awfully rude thing to do!), but someone else had told them, in hushed tones, that they'd be sharing with a "fudge-packer", or one of your other delightful terms. They told him to f**k off and grow up.
Thank God I work with people who defend their friends and colleagues.
I find the practices abhorrent but I don't have a problem working with homosexuals - I am not that insecure or vain that I think I will get pounced on in the showers. I'm not even sure if any of the guys and girls I work with are gay - so I am not affected either way.
What I (and I expect many others - gay and straight) have a problem with is the constant parading of UK military homosexuals in Gay Pride, gay magazines and other publicity-grabbing events in order to 'prove' to the nation how much the military has changed since the bad old days.
The MOD should cease to engage in all activities which showcase and show off the minorities in HM Forces. Ex-Lt Cdr Lustig-Preen shouting his mouth off in the papers, regular 'features' on female pilots (wow!
) in RAF magazines, the latest MOD initiative to entice muslims into service.... STOP THE LOT! And concentrate on us as one big happy military family.
Why should we bend over backwards to get these minorities (and they are minorities in the UK) into the military, and go to such great lengths to publicise our efforts?
Lets just get on with the job, recruit as many PEOPLE as we can, and not make a big deal of how many gays, women, blacks we have. Lets go about our duties normally and make a really big deal when we get something worthwhile right: Boscastle, peace and security in Irag/Afghanistan... err that's a different thread
Points, comments, dissenters and PC flamers greatly welcomed....
What I (and I expect many others - gay and straight) have a problem with is the constant parading of UK military homosexuals in Gay Pride, gay magazines and other publicity-grabbing events in order to 'prove' to the nation how much the military has changed since the bad old days.
The MOD should cease to engage in all activities which showcase and show off the minorities in HM Forces. Ex-Lt Cdr Lustig-Preen shouting his mouth off in the papers, regular 'features' on female pilots (wow!
) in RAF magazines, the latest MOD initiative to entice muslims into service.... STOP THE LOT! And concentrate on us as one big happy military family.Why should we bend over backwards to get these minorities (and they are minorities in the UK) into the military, and go to such great lengths to publicise our efforts?
Lets just get on with the job, recruit as many PEOPLE as we can, and not make a big deal of how many gays, women, blacks we have. Lets go about our duties normally and make a really big deal when we get something worthwhile right: Boscastle, peace and security in Irag/Afghanistan... err that's a different thread
Points, comments, dissenters and PC flamers greatly welcomed....
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Couldn't agree more. I recall I was utterly disgusted when I met a fine chap who was at Cranwell with me 6 months after training and he told me that he was leaving as he had better things to do with his life that deal with these racist tw@ts.
That said, I ruffled a few feathers at DORIS when, as a recruiting officer some years later, I refused to have anything to do with the "Ethnic Recruiting Vehicle". Some chimp had kitted out a pantechnicon with images of happy smiling black faces (4 of the photos were of the same guy in different guises - Action Man Diver, Admin Sec Officer, Techie and Hang Glider!).
As is their wont, the MT Drivers immediately christened it the "Wog Wagon". Even this didn't alert DORIS to their rank stupidity.
Did they honestly expect a young recruiting officer to turn up at a school or college, park the ordinary wagon on one side of the playgound, the "Wog Wagon" on the other and then perhaps stand in the middle with a shambok saying:
"OK, all you little white boys and girls to the truck on the left, all you little black boys and girls to the truck on the right!"
Despite being a gay chap myself, it will doubtless come as a relief to fellow ppruners that I have never felt the urge to don a jock strap and fairy wings and prance half-naked through the streets of Manchester.
Were I to be asked to go to such an event I would give exactly the same response as I did when I was asked why I wasn't using the 'Ethnic Recruiting Vehicle'.
Couldn't agree more. I recall I was utterly disgusted when I met a fine chap who was at Cranwell with me 6 months after training and he told me that he was leaving as he had better things to do with his life that deal with these racist tw@ts.
That said, I ruffled a few feathers at DORIS when, as a recruiting officer some years later, I refused to have anything to do with the "Ethnic Recruiting Vehicle". Some chimp had kitted out a pantechnicon with images of happy smiling black faces (4 of the photos were of the same guy in different guises - Action Man Diver, Admin Sec Officer, Techie and Hang Glider!).
As is their wont, the MT Drivers immediately christened it the "Wog Wagon". Even this didn't alert DORIS to their rank stupidity.
Did they honestly expect a young recruiting officer to turn up at a school or college, park the ordinary wagon on one side of the playgound, the "Wog Wagon" on the other and then perhaps stand in the middle with a shambok saying:
"OK, all you little white boys and girls to the truck on the left, all you little black boys and girls to the truck on the right!"
Despite being a gay chap myself, it will doubtless come as a relief to fellow ppruners that I have never felt the urge to don a jock strap and fairy wings and prance half-naked through the streets of Manchester.
Were I to be asked to go to such an event I would give exactly the same response as I did when I was asked why I wasn't using the 'Ethnic Recruiting Vehicle'.
Last edited by An Teallach; 2nd Sep 2005 at 11:05.
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AT
"""""Despite being a gay chap myself, it will doubtless come as a relief to fellow ppruners that I have never felt the urge to don a jock strap and fairy wings and prance half-naked through the streets of Manchester"""""" !!!!!
I'd pay to see that though ! Could you make it Glasgow ? I'll be visiting family there next month !!
As for the Race / Gender Industry, I personally believe the antics of the CRE thought police, "activists" like Tatchell and the whole dim pc brigade has put tolerance and understanding of the "normal" silent majority at full stretch.
"""""Despite being a gay chap myself, it will doubtless come as a relief to fellow ppruners that I have never felt the urge to don a jock strap and fairy wings and prance half-naked through the streets of Manchester"""""" !!!!!
I'd pay to see that though ! Could you make it Glasgow ? I'll be visiting family there next month !!
As for the Race / Gender Industry, I personally believe the antics of the CRE thought police, "activists" like Tatchell and the whole dim pc brigade has put tolerance and understanding of the "normal" silent majority at full stretch.
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"activists" like Tatchell
In Plato's Republic he set out an ordered list of human relationships based on the idea of forming a social hierarchy. And what was at the top? Homosexuals.
Read a bit about just how widespread and accepted homosexuality was in ancient times and discovered a bit where the men of (I think) Sparta had to get blind drunk before they could bring themselves to pleasure the ladies - bit like Norwich on Grab-a-granny night
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I've yet to meet a gay serviceman or woman who is into the whole gay pride scene. Gay pride is generally a bit of harmless fun, but it does have the effect of stereotyping gay men and I do not believe a uniformed military presence, at the hub of such an event, is dignified or appropriate. Unfortunately, we (service personnel who are gay) are taking the flak for the actions of some corporate comms/DORIS type, who thinks they understand (or doesn't care) how most gay people in the armed forces would wish to be portrayed.
On a separate issue, may I ask why some people in this debate feel the need to preface their comments (usually referring to anal sex) with phrases such as, "While I find the thought of gay sex abhorrent....."?
Firstly, such phrases assume the author knows exactly what gay men get up to in the sack. Not all gay men regularly engage in anal sex or find it pleasurable (many, of course, love it): some gay men try anal sex once or a few times and then rarely if ever engage in the practice, and others never try it at all. A researcher from the University of British Columbia (quoted in 5 May, 2005 issue of The Georgia Straight) puts the number of heterosexuals who regularly practice anal sex at between 30% and 50%. So, to stereotype people on the basis of their sexual practices is rather pointless.
As a gay man, there are aspects of vaginal sex (and I have tried it) that I find repulsive, but I do not to feel the need to declare this at every verse end.
On a separate issue, may I ask why some people in this debate feel the need to preface their comments (usually referring to anal sex) with phrases such as, "While I find the thought of gay sex abhorrent....."?
Firstly, such phrases assume the author knows exactly what gay men get up to in the sack. Not all gay men regularly engage in anal sex or find it pleasurable (many, of course, love it): some gay men try anal sex once or a few times and then rarely if ever engage in the practice, and others never try it at all. A researcher from the University of British Columbia (quoted in 5 May, 2005 issue of The Georgia Straight) puts the number of heterosexuals who regularly practice anal sex at between 30% and 50%. So, to stereotype people on the basis of their sexual practices is rather pointless.
As a gay man, there are aspects of vaginal sex (and I have tried it) that I find repulsive, but I do not to feel the need to declare this at every verse end.
Last edited by Scud-U-Like; 2nd Sep 2005 at 12:54.
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Straight or Gay, we are all in the military; can we please just get on with the job and not bother with the tedious discussions on this subject? Lets all agree to disagree, respect each other for our abilities, and rise above these (sometimes graphic and distasteful) comments.