Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
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I wouldn't worry to much about the 'fatigue' issue at EK, airbus757, as it would seem to be rather a small group of dis-satisified EK copilots all flustered about DEC's.
The 'fatigue' issue would appear to be a facade, as they have crief 'wolf' far too many times in the past.
The 'fatigue' issue would appear to be a facade, as they have crief 'wolf' far too many times in the past.
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411a you got some nerve. The posts have nothing to do with DECs (which is a wholelly different matter) but with how much Emirates pilots are working. I myself have averaged 19 days a month for the last 5 months and 94 hours of HARD flight time, ie no trip credit or duty rigs and I am not even close to the high end of the work curve.
Go to the clinic and see how many pilots are fatigued. The number will astounded you. ALso while you are there see how many pilots are clinically depressed. I guess you will say that we are just crying wolf.
Stop drinking the company Kool-Aid and listen to what is being said. I don't believe that anyone is making this up or trying to elisic smypathy. An apology is in order from you 411
Go to the clinic and see how many pilots are fatigued. The number will astounded you. ALso while you are there see how many pilots are clinically depressed. I guess you will say that we are just crying wolf.
Stop drinking the company Kool-Aid and listen to what is being said. I don't believe that anyone is making this up or trying to elisic smypathy. An apology is in order from you 411
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GL69, you will get many things from 411A but not an apology. He's not from EK by the way, but of course he's done it all and seen it all. 411A you get them to bite so fast..either way GL69 is correct, fatigue would not be restricted to "non" DECs now would it?
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Sorry, gl69, you'll get no sympathy from me.
Working 19 days a month, you say, with 94 flying hours?
Sounds a bit easier than a few of my previous months, which averaged right at 100, with 23 days on duty.
You young'ins just can't keep up the pace, it would seem.
If you were promoted, it would still likely be the same refrain...'we is overworked and underpaid'.
A broken record...
Working 19 days a month, you say, with 94 flying hours?
Sounds a bit easier than a few of my previous months, which averaged right at 100, with 23 days on duty.
You young'ins just can't keep up the pace, it would seem.
If you were promoted, it would still likely be the same refrain...'we is overworked and underpaid'.
A broken record...
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While we are without question overworked and underpaid I fail to see what difference it matters weather it is the right or left seat. Working right up to the max is not safe and you should know that. I don't know what rag-tag airline you are with since the word on the street seems to say you are not EMirates but 12 days a month working should be the max for long haul. By the way I am out of time for the year and only worked 5 days last month and it was such a relief! I am recharged and a new man.
That does not bode well for my friend here at Emirates who flew 1125 hours last year (not inlcuding the factoring) and then recieved as a belated Christmas gift 6 midnight sim supports in a row. If that is not a recipe for fatigue please tell me what is.
That does not bode well for my friend here at Emirates who flew 1125 hours last year (not inlcuding the factoring) and then recieved as a belated Christmas gift 6 midnight sim supports in a row. If that is not a recipe for fatigue please tell me what is.
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12 days a month = 6 long haul trips.
24 hours layover for each trip = 6 days.
18 days for the company leaves about 12-13 days at home.
For an all long haul operation that sounds about right to me.
How many days would you consider reasnable I-Ford
24 hours layover for each trip = 6 days.
18 days for the company leaves about 12-13 days at home.
For an all long haul operation that sounds about right to me.
How many days would you consider reasnable I-Ford
I-Ford,
I have no problems with flying 100hrs per month, if it was to be done properly. This could be done in 3ish trips, and this would leave a lot of time to recover, get a life etc. Unfortunately, we have a very little man in charge at the moment, who is unable to understand what long haul flying is about. He does not like the idea that pilots should have more time off than anyone else in the company, so has directed that rosters should be made with max hours and min days off (this is also the reason that until recently those that flew the 900hr limit were rostered for SIM support duties until the hour problem went away...can not have those lasy pilots being paid for staying at home!!!). So these long haul flights are now seperated by min rest, then midnight turns, then min rest for the next flight. Rosters of 7days on 1 off, then 7days on 2 off have become the norm for the past 2yrs. And now it is all catching up, not only on the guys that have been doing it, but also on the crew sched fellas, who run out of crews due to this ineffiencent rostering practice. In fact before the pay cut we took a year and a bit ago, this little mans pettiness over ensuring pilots only had min days off was costing the company a bundle, as we would be rostered to fly 90-95hrs, be given the min number of days off, and then if any days were left over they would be turned into reserve days, which back then we got paid for.
Up till now, the Bus fleet has worn the brunt of this. The Boeing has been spared only due to the fact that most of its trips spend more time away from DXB. But once the 773er and 772lr start flying the longer sectors they too will get caught up in it.
There are rumours that some of these rostering practices have been changed, but it will take a few months to see if this is true or not.
So no, EK drivers are not afraid to work. We obviously want the company to do well and maintain our jobs. But we do not feel we need to die while doing so.
Don
I have no problems with flying 100hrs per month, if it was to be done properly. This could be done in 3ish trips, and this would leave a lot of time to recover, get a life etc. Unfortunately, we have a very little man in charge at the moment, who is unable to understand what long haul flying is about. He does not like the idea that pilots should have more time off than anyone else in the company, so has directed that rosters should be made with max hours and min days off (this is also the reason that until recently those that flew the 900hr limit were rostered for SIM support duties until the hour problem went away...can not have those lasy pilots being paid for staying at home!!!). So these long haul flights are now seperated by min rest, then midnight turns, then min rest for the next flight. Rosters of 7days on 1 off, then 7days on 2 off have become the norm for the past 2yrs. And now it is all catching up, not only on the guys that have been doing it, but also on the crew sched fellas, who run out of crews due to this ineffiencent rostering practice. In fact before the pay cut we took a year and a bit ago, this little mans pettiness over ensuring pilots only had min days off was costing the company a bundle, as we would be rostered to fly 90-95hrs, be given the min number of days off, and then if any days were left over they would be turned into reserve days, which back then we got paid for.
Up till now, the Bus fleet has worn the brunt of this. The Boeing has been spared only due to the fact that most of its trips spend more time away from DXB. But once the 773er and 772lr start flying the longer sectors they too will get caught up in it.
There are rumours that some of these rostering practices have been changed, but it will take a few months to see if this is true or not.
So no, EK drivers are not afraid to work. We obviously want the company to do well and maintain our jobs. But we do not feel we need to die while doing so.
Don
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As always a breath of fresh Boolsh!t from 411A 
Change your name and try again you w@nker no-one listens to your cr@p anymore!! 
(Sorry 4HP, just exercising a little "freedom of expression") Carry on - this is beauts. 4HP 
OK, now for the SERIOUS people out there.....
I agree that flying 900 hours a year long haul is easily achieved, all it takes is 3 flights a month:
DXB-JFK-DXB = 27h20,
DXB-MEL-DXB = 27H35 and a
DXB-SYD-DXB = 28H40
TOTAL = 83H35 x 10.6 months (365 - leave) = 886 hours
HOWEVER, at Emirates the long haul flights are surrounded by short turn arounds (at the most ungodly hours) which eat away into off days. Compound that by working guys over 100 hours per month and that's where the fatigue issue comes in.
By the way, had to LOVE the message on EVITA (Emirates Voice Information Telephone Access) the last few days:
Change your name and try again you w@nker no-one listens to your cr@p anymore!! (Sorry 4HP, just exercising a little "freedom of expression") Carry on - this is beauts. 4HP OK, now for the SERIOUS people out there.....
I agree that flying 900 hours a year long haul is easily achieved, all it takes is 3 flights a month:
DXB-JFK-DXB = 27h20,
DXB-MEL-DXB = 27H35 and a
DXB-SYD-DXB = 28H40
TOTAL = 83H35 x 10.6 months (365 - leave) = 886 hours
HOWEVER, at Emirates the long haul flights are surrounded by short turn arounds (at the most ungodly hours) which eat away into off days. Compound that by working guys over 100 hours per month and that's where the fatigue issue comes in.
By the way, had to LOVE the message on EVITA (Emirates Voice Information Telephone Access) the last few days:
"This message is for all flight deck crew, unless you are calling sick or volunteering to work today (yeah right!) please do not call crew control as we have too many flights to cover and are unable to help you with any further information....unless it is urgent. Thank you." 
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 29th Jan 2006 at 22:14.
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Freedom of expression?
Right on! Now I can really say what I think!
411A you are an absolute tw@t to think that you're drivel is listened to hear. God, I wish that I could really say the word here that I want to use, but I guess that I'd be banned for ever, but it's something along the lines of 'See You Next Tuesday...'
You're way out of touch man! You know absolutely cock all about modern aviation and the way that fatigue can creep up and bite you. You are nothing less than some octogenarian antique that is best put out to grass, or better still, best left to prop up some flying club bar whilst the doey eyed PPLs listen to your stories of 'Lads, now when I was in the war.....' You're opinions are not only unwelcome but uninformed. You're data is hopelessly outdated and worst of all, you're rudeness is overwhelmingly out of synch with the modern way by which we communicate. Today's flight deck is not a Man / Boy environment, many FOs that I fly with are older than me, have greater experience than me and in many cases are probably more capable too. But then I have something that you will never have old man, and that is humility. I also have empathy and that is something that you would not understand, maybe you're just a tad jealous that you are past it and that despite your assertions that you are 'experienced, seen it, done it...etc' you would not get a foothold at a chance of an interview here, even if you did the psychometric evaluation would weed you out and you'd get the 'Thanks, but no thanks' letter that you would deserve.
Now, 441A, why don't you just f*ck off and let the current ATPL holders sort out their issues without bleating on about how good we have it. And before you even go there, no I am not some junior FO with a chip on his shoulder. For what it's worth I am a current EK Captain, 9 years in the company, 17,000 hours in the logbook (and increasing at 900 a year) and have flown everything from Daks to B747s via Tiger Moths and Harvards.
I know that typing that was a waste of time, but gee, I feel much better now!
4HP, do I have to apologise now? Nope but as tic says, chill; you're getting all worked up. Tone down the language please, there's women & children on this site. That's the official line. Unofficially, great post.
411A you are an absolute tw@t to think that you're drivel is listened to hear. God, I wish that I could really say the word here that I want to use, but I guess that I'd be banned for ever, but it's something along the lines of 'See You Next Tuesday...'
You're way out of touch man! You know absolutely cock all about modern aviation and the way that fatigue can creep up and bite you. You are nothing less than some octogenarian antique that is best put out to grass, or better still, best left to prop up some flying club bar whilst the doey eyed PPLs listen to your stories of 'Lads, now when I was in the war.....' You're opinions are not only unwelcome but uninformed. You're data is hopelessly outdated and worst of all, you're rudeness is overwhelmingly out of synch with the modern way by which we communicate. Today's flight deck is not a Man / Boy environment, many FOs that I fly with are older than me, have greater experience than me and in many cases are probably more capable too. But then I have something that you will never have old man, and that is humility. I also have empathy and that is something that you would not understand, maybe you're just a tad jealous that you are past it and that despite your assertions that you are 'experienced, seen it, done it...etc' you would not get a foothold at a chance of an interview here, even if you did the psychometric evaluation would weed you out and you'd get the 'Thanks, but no thanks' letter that you would deserve.
Now, 441A, why don't you just f*ck off and let the current ATPL holders sort out their issues without bleating on about how good we have it. And before you even go there, no I am not some junior FO with a chip on his shoulder. For what it's worth I am a current EK Captain, 9 years in the company, 17,000 hours in the logbook (and increasing at 900 a year) and have flown everything from Daks to B747s via Tiger Moths and Harvards.
I know that typing that was a waste of time, but gee, I feel much better now!
4HP, do I have to apologise now? Nope but as tic says, chill; you're getting all worked up. Tone down the language please, there's women & children on this site. That's the official line. Unofficially, great post.
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 30th Jan 2006 at 14:23.
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411A
I agree with you.
Disappointed, please CHILL OUT. You have your 17000 hrs, you can't be that young yourself. I hear where you coming from, but no need for insults. I've got 17100 hrs. I'm tired like you, but no point complaining. It falls on deaf ears anyway.
I agree with you.
Disappointed, please CHILL OUT. You have your 17000 hrs, you can't be that young yourself. I hear where you coming from, but no need for insults. I've got 17100 hrs. I'm tired like you, but no point complaining. It falls on deaf ears anyway.
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<<....but no point complaining. It falls on deaf ears anyway>>
Apparently it does, tic, the company can see through these guys, and so can many others.
This 'fatigued' business is just a red herring.
The EK guys joined expecting a rose garden in the middle east, and now they find a weed patch.
Then, along comes 'long haul' and I suppose they thought it was like the old days, Atlantic Barons with very long layovers.
Well, they now find out the way airlines are managed these days...you gotta work for the wages, and sometimes the hours are long indeed.
Nothing new of course, but these EK guys are getting an education, and apparently it is not to their liking.
When they applied to EK, they were asking for work, and now that they have found it, flying the shiny new jets, they can do nothing but complain.
Awww, the poor babies
Apparently it does, tic, the company can see through these guys, and so can many others.
This 'fatigued' business is just a red herring.
The EK guys joined expecting a rose garden in the middle east, and now they find a weed patch.
Then, along comes 'long haul' and I suppose they thought it was like the old days, Atlantic Barons with very long layovers.
Well, they now find out the way airlines are managed these days...you gotta work for the wages, and sometimes the hours are long indeed.
Nothing new of course, but these EK guys are getting an education, and apparently it is not to their liking.
When they applied to EK, they were asking for work, and now that they have found it, flying the shiny new jets, they can do nothing but complain.
Awww, the poor babies
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411A
I don't fly for EK, but I suppose, being the biggest airline in the Gulf, it is not surprising at the constant whingeing going on. To me, a pilot can do 900 hrs a year. So if you are rostered that way, then accept it. Most airlines roster you normally for far far less. EK doesn't do anything that EY, GF, Qatari etc doesn't. At the end of the day, although your airline want's you to have a stable relationship if you are married,and perhaps with kids, the bottom line is, the profitability of the company you work for. They accept, but don't really care about your personal life. All they want to see is the wheels going up on that particular flight, whether long or short haul. All of us got into this game, initially coz we love flying. Although we love flying, the airline game sucks. Going to work at 2am is not job satisfaction, especially during Xmas or New Year. ( Pax are very selfish sometimes), but we do it to fly, big aircraft. The family does suffer, big time, but, they knew what they were getting into, and accepted that. Those that haven't, are long gone, and many that don't will soon follow. I suspect, that most of the complaining is because of family issues, and not the actual job.
I don't fly for EK, but I suppose, being the biggest airline in the Gulf, it is not surprising at the constant whingeing going on. To me, a pilot can do 900 hrs a year. So if you are rostered that way, then accept it. Most airlines roster you normally for far far less. EK doesn't do anything that EY, GF, Qatari etc doesn't. At the end of the day, although your airline want's you to have a stable relationship if you are married,and perhaps with kids, the bottom line is, the profitability of the company you work for. They accept, but don't really care about your personal life. All they want to see is the wheels going up on that particular flight, whether long or short haul. All of us got into this game, initially coz we love flying. Although we love flying, the airline game sucks. Going to work at 2am is not job satisfaction, especially during Xmas or New Year. ( Pax are very selfish sometimes), but we do it to fly, big aircraft. The family does suffer, big time, but, they knew what they were getting into, and accepted that. Those that haven't, are long gone, and many that don't will soon follow. I suspect, that most of the complaining is because of family issues, and not the actual job.
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No it is the job and specifically EK. Everyone can deal with the 2am departures. They don't like it but they put up with it. What any pilot can not put up with is 900 hrs a year then on top of that sim support compounded by the constant degradation of T&C with a healthy dose of DECs to make you feel better.
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As described on parallel threads flights are being cancelled due to lack of crews.
The crew shortage is a result of unprecedented resignations over the last twelve months along with prospective employees rejecting offers of employment.
This a result of the battering being administered to the Terms and Conditions of EK flight crew in the interest of short term and short sighted cost management.
I believe the phrase is 'the cows are coming home'.
The crew shortage is a result of unprecedented resignations over the last twelve months along with prospective employees rejecting offers of employment.
This a result of the battering being administered to the Terms and Conditions of EK flight crew in the interest of short term and short sighted cost management.
I believe the phrase is 'the cows are coming home'.
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<<...All they want to see is the wheels going up on that particular flight, whether long or short haul>>
That's it in a nutshell, tic, and quite unlike the old days, when management waved off flights, PanAmerican style, white hats and all.
It is a cut-throat business now, no mistake.
While I can find no particular sympathy for the EK guys, they were apparently presented with a much rosier picture when they applied, offering accelerated Commands, high(er) salaries, grand lifestyle etc, but rapid expansion by the company, together with a much higher cost of living in DXB, and least we forget, rather poor communicative skills by senior management, they now find themselves in rather deep doggie do-do.
What to do?
The Captains at EK surely have an ace up their sleeves, as there are quite a few offers on the table from other airlines (especially in Asia) for their services.
The First Officers however do not have it so lucky.
Even if they were Captains before, they are now playing second fiddle, so the demand for their services elsewhere is less significant.
About all these F/O's can do is wait it out, obtain a command, get a few command hours under their belt, then they will have a much better chance of employment elsewhere, if they so choose.
The bloom went off the rose with airline flying quite some time ago (especially at EK it would appear, and certainly more so in the middle east), but on the other hand, it still is a rather pleasent way to make a living, 900 hours or no.
Let the whinging continue...
That's it in a nutshell, tic, and quite unlike the old days, when management waved off flights, PanAmerican style, white hats and all.
It is a cut-throat business now, no mistake.
While I can find no particular sympathy for the EK guys, they were apparently presented with a much rosier picture when they applied, offering accelerated Commands, high(er) salaries, grand lifestyle etc, but rapid expansion by the company, together with a much higher cost of living in DXB, and least we forget, rather poor communicative skills by senior management, they now find themselves in rather deep doggie do-do.
What to do?
The Captains at EK surely have an ace up their sleeves, as there are quite a few offers on the table from other airlines (especially in Asia) for their services.
The First Officers however do not have it so lucky.
Even if they were Captains before, they are now playing second fiddle, so the demand for their services elsewhere is less significant.
About all these F/O's can do is wait it out, obtain a command, get a few command hours under their belt, then they will have a much better chance of employment elsewhere, if they so choose.
The bloom went off the rose with airline flying quite some time ago (especially at EK it would appear, and certainly more so in the middle east), but on the other hand, it still is a rather pleasent way to make a living, 900 hours or no.
Let the whinging continue...
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411A
Man I never thought i would see the day. You have softened up old man. That post of yours is almost from a point of reason and understanding. I must say I like it better when you call it like it is.
Do not change your ways. You might be the only one in here who still calls a spade a spade.
We get enough of the bleeding heart stuff from the other 10 thousand posters here.
7
Man I never thought i would see the day. You have softened up old man. That post of yours is almost from a point of reason and understanding. I must say I like it better when you call it like it is.
Do not change your ways. You might be the only one in here who still calls a spade a spade.
We get enough of the bleeding heart stuff from the other 10 thousand posters here.
7
