Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued

[hans_airbus]

I am not saying that EK is absolutely perfect, there is always something to improve.

But we should stop draging our employer through the mud. Its a shame.

Be happy that you have a secure job.

If you think that there is a better life beyond Emirates than go. But I tell you there isnt.

I dont compare EK with all these Low cost companies in Europe, I just want to make clear that working in europe is TOUGH.

[Shake]

Hans it is tough working for Emirates and getting tougher, tough enough for many to consider going back to europe where at least they are at home. EK has become for me and them simply not worth it any more.

As for dragging our employers through the mud I think that we should be looking to those who manage to apportion the blame. They are the ones who have ignored all the warnings and have 'led' us to this situation. It doesn't take a great deal of thought to realise that to constantly cut costs in an expanding airline was going to cause serious problems. There was plenty of time to plan ahead and develope our training capacity. Instead we even removed trainers from their positions as they were surplus to requirements to cut costs only to need them back a several months later.

We have persisted in maintaining rigid entry & upgrade policies which are simply unrealistic in todays market. This negligence has led us to our current shortage and requirement for the much resented DECs.

We could have instead chosen to develope the careers of those already in EK and produce all the captains we needed from within. Instead we chose inaction & continued to cut costs in the short term ignoring the long term ramifications.

We are now feeling the effects of these and other decisions. We are short of crews, pilots are not turning up for courses and pilots are leaving. The shortage is putting the strain on the rest of the line, a strain which is causing high levels of fatigue and associated flight safety problems.

A few years ago we knew far less about EK, but on the whole it was mainly positive. As the work force has grown, as has the demands put on them, the news has become more & more negative. The mud dragging on PRuNe is one of the symptoms not the problem.

[waldorfin]

The issue here gents is productivity. A family member of mine is a doc. He works 22 hour days sometimes. The days of big earnings and an armchair styled living is over. This holds true for all professions, tertiary or otherwise. So we look for other comforts. Like job security. EK offers that. Its no good standing in northern Scotland on a winters day insisting on a suntan. Reality needs to be checked and indeed accepted.
Perhaps some of us here have lived and seen the hey days but that’s what they were, the evolutionary absolutes of corporate dimensions dictate that a company such as EK has to play according to the rules dictated by financial survival. BA, AF, KLM have all seen an erosion in offerings, not to mention the North Americans and Australians. A banker in Canary Wharf has had a 20% reduction in earnings over the last ten years. All in the name of productivity in order to secure the future of said companies. So we are not alone.
May I ask that we dispense with the puerile name calling please.

[Vorsicht]

Yeah, nice try Waldo. Not bad for an amateur wind up merchant.

Some of those figures might be true (though i doubt it) but have you checked lately the price of a plumber/electrician/carpenter in Australia.

That's right, they are all earning 6 figure sums. Why? Supply and demand. The market makes the rate.

EK has been the beneficiary of that simple law for many years now, but it appears the table is turning. Although they are happy with their head in the sand, Rome is burning my friend (love mixing my metaphors). They have probably already missed the boat, but given the arrogance of management, it will likely get a lot worse before they acknowledge the problem. Other companies are putting their prices up and we are taking notice. Sure Ryanair aint no picknick, but they pay a lot. When i got here the standard comment was "sure the pay is crap, but the lifestyle is great". And to be honest that was enough for most. Now however the pay is crap and the lifestyle is crap. Job security aint gonna cut it my boy, not when there are other options.

Keep on fiddlin dude. You are truly representitive of the malaise that grips EK management.

[mensaboy]

At what point waldorfin would you stand up and say enough is enough. NEVER i suspect.

Some people come from cultures where criticizing anyone in power, whether employers, government or wealthy individuals, is considered wrong. A few others are simply self-serving and feel voicing support for one's superiors under all circumstances will somehow benefit them. In either case this is a misguided and perilous point of view. I can understand the cultural issue, as its difficult to 'unlearn' what has been taught since childhood, but as for the other individuals, they are simply too self-serving and narrow minded to ever change.

I wish EK the utmost success. I don't know of one pilot who doesn't wish EK to be profitable, successful and the pick of the airlines for pilots around the world. This is our only means of expressing what needs to be done to achieve this goal.

It is not a question of whether or not EK is mismanaging themselves from crisis to crisis anymore. That is obvious to all but those individuals mentioned above.

I don't wish to leave EK as there should be some great benefits of this job. But I have no illusion that I will be here in 5 years if management doesn't get a grip on things and soon. I will not let my health suffer in the name of productivity as you put it. I'm sure what you are really saying is...... PROFIT. But even then, productivity or profit is being affected by cancelled flights, an alarming increase in valid health issues, pilot no-shows, a lack of suitable applicants and the ever present threat of a hull lose with all the associated repercussions. These are real and valid concerns that cannot be excused in the name of a productivity increase. Your complacent attitude and blind support for management policies even to the point of making up excuses for them, is disturbing to say the least.

[Shake]

I have no problem with productivity as long as it is commensurate with an increase in pay. EK has lifted the bar, increased our productivity with no further increase in pay. This has had a direct effect on the quality of life in the desert which was so important to those who came here in the first place.

As mensa points out, the increase in productivity is needed to offset the losses created by mismanagment.

Emirates has changed. It is not what is was or that the PR would have us believe. We are working harder for less and before anyone leaves a secure airline with decent seniority they should know what they are coming to.

[waldorfin]

V you raise a valid point on the supply and demand front. However I have heard this since I left the military a thousand years ago. I agree that there has been an erosion of our income however I must disagree on the lifestyle issue. Goodness I remember a time when all we had was long life milk. (despise the stuff) Today Dubai has all the comforts and yes the troubles of a biggish city. Having experienced both era’s I can tell you there is no contest. Go spend a weekend in Ajman then come talk to me.

There are always exceptions to the rule mate. Perhaps a plumber in Australia is earning big money however that is certainly not indicative of the general situation.

M say enough to what? Do you think any airline management would be swayed by what the pilot workforce want. No my friend its all driven by economics. Is that bad, perhaps my question to you is how is EK different to any other company?

Looking for excuses, don’t think so. Facing reality, yes. That’s where we differ. Believe me I want to get paid loads more, I know it will not happen though.

[ratpoison]

A family member of mine is a doc. He works 22 hour days sometimes

What a load of crap. No body in that profession is legally and even physically able to do that.

[Vorsicht]

Another fairly amateur attempt at spin waldo.

Either that or you still have not been able to grasp the basics of the issues at hand.
The quality of life in Ajman is relevant to those in Ajman, not me. The type of milk i have in my fridge makes little impact on how many days off or how tired i am at the end of a pattern.

And as far as the plumbers in australia go, yes that is the general situation.

Try and find a few facts to support your argument. Who knows maybe someone will listen to you.

[4legsaday]

professionalism???

@Ahead

ahh, you are one of the FILTD´S ("failed in London tried Dubai") Congratulation!

What you have posted here is below all standards mate and reflects your weird personal attitude and professionality, I guess you know this. More to say??

No thanks, you shoot yourself to the moon and you have my deepest sympathy.
Get well soon.

[bushbolox]

Ahad,
The A in A class must stand for arrogant prick.Are you a superior candidate because you joined at an earlier date?. I couldnt join Ek in the 90s because of commitment to the TA in the balkans, does that make me or any later joiners inferior to you. Therein lies the problem. Your not as A class as you think. Real class wouldnt be so discourteous.
In the days that you joined the expat world it was usualy the escapists from the competition that went. If you are the face of old EK then vive la change.

[Ahad Adump]

OOoooooooooooo no one likes me.................
So THIS is how a DEC feels!!!!!

[waldorfin]

My dear boy, rat, you are somewhat uninformed young man. Legalities in medicine, what are you on about. Your naivety astounds me. For your information an intern in any hospital can easily work a 36 hour shift with a few catnaps, nip down to the clinic and ask one of the docs pal. Be man enough to post an apology when you found out your wrong OK.

[chinawladi]

Not that DEC crap again, please!
Everyone, except the cadets, is a DE. Most are DEFO's, but they will be DEC's to the next company, most probably.
So if you don't like to hear that crap by then, shut up now, please!
Stick to fatigue items, what this thread is about.

[ratpoison]

Did someone call me a "young man". Oh, Waldo, i'm beginning to like you.

[Quod Boy]

Waldo and Hans,

You mention that if pilots dont like it,then we should stop moaning and leave?

Unless Im incorrect almost 60(sixty) have taken your advice and that up until this over rapid expansion into the wild blue yonder simply never happened.

Facts, and why nothing is being done(that I can see or hear or read) to arrest this unaccetable loss rate in an expansion is simply staggerring.

Im off to try my hand on an 18hr duty day,then hopefully the pub.

QB

[411A]

More of this negative nonsense about EK.
IF it was soooooo bad, more would be leaving the sinking ship.
20 or thirty, even 50 don't count, as these are mostly likely to be dis-satisfied copilots who are always complaining...

Don't like it, leave.
Vote with your feet.

Of course, the next question must be...who would want these malcontents in the first place?

[journeyman]

411A,

I notice you have more time on your hands than normal - is the Zimmer frame in for a service?

[Schnowzer]

Hans,

I doubt many people would dispute the fact that EK is not the worst out there, it is we hope a stable job with long term prospects. But, its like a train and how you view the journey depends on which station you got on. I was taught as a lad to respect the views of my seniors because they had seen it all before. I thought it was a load of bunk then but maybe there is actually some truth to it.

If lets say you had got on the train in 2000, you would have been earning 16700AED/Mth. Using the UAE's official government figures for inflation (excluding all the expensive things like rent) you would need to be paid 21700AED/Mth to have the same standard of living joining now as in 2000. Using those numbers, a new joiner gets 18370/Mth which means guys are already prepared to work 15% harder for 15% less pay than in 2000.

If you look at real inflation, an excerpt from an article is attached below, you would actually need to earn around 24,300AED/Mth to have the same standard of living. That means 15% harder for 25% less pay!

Now if you go back even further to 1992, using the governments official figures (1992-2000; 52%. 2000-2005; 29%) to have the same standard of living you would need to earn 28,400AED/Mth. (For real probably 35,000AED). That means 15% harder for 35-50% less pay!

Now you are getting on the train and things look pretty good from where you are standing whilst guys that have been here for a while are moaning about how their conditions have deteriorated. They have! You are prepared to come and work harder for nearly half in real terms of the salary paid to an F/O 15 years ago. For the senior guys it feels even worse because they peak out and then every year they stay they end up working for less and less.

Yes things have changed in the industry and terms and conditions have dropped globally but now the airline is trying to squeeze every drop of blood out of every employee for less and less pay in real terms. That is why guys are now leaving. When I joined it was accepted that it wasn't the best paid job in the world and that we worked a little harder than average but morale was good and most guys enjoyed a better standard of living than before. There was a generally good atmosphere because people felt valued.

You could go to the beach and a 10 minute car journey took 10 minutes. Now the nearest open beach is in Jebel Ali and a 10 minute car journey defies Einstein by taking 40 minutes with 10 near death experiences. No one was leaving then. Now friends of mine that have always been pro-EK are looking to bail because they do not see an end in sight. Leaving home was a good idea because you could make yourself financially stable after a few years. To do that now you will have to stay till 60 and I for one cannot imagine being 60 sleeping in the crew rest on an 18 hour flight from god knows where. I certainly don't feel valued more abused.

The funny thing about it all was that when I got on the train I couldn't understand what the senior guys were on about. I can now!!

Schnowzer

In the UAE, for example, the price of petrol at the fuel stations increased by 32 percent On September 1st. According to a recent survey by Gulf Talent, a Dubai based recruitment agency, rents in the emirate rose 34 percent in the past year. The consumer price index computed by the UAE Central Bank does factor in rents, which are weighted as a third of the index, yet the official inflation figure of 4.7 percent does not seem to reflect the findings of the survey. “Business Monitor International” found that rents in the UAE increased by 20 to 40 percent from last year, as did prices of household goods and services, though relatively less.

A number of informal indicators suggest that the rate of inflation is much greater than what official statistics indicate. A recent survey by HSBC, the Middle East Business Confidence Index (MEBCI), found that a large proportion of businessmen and women were feeling the pinch of higher prices. Almost 70 percent of those questioned, felt that the cost of living had risen by more than 20 percent over the year, and 26 percent thought that it had risen by a staggering 40 percent or more.

Independent studies have also found the price of goods and services are growing faster than what is officially reported. Standard Chartered Plc estimated that prices for goods and services in the UAE rose 10 percent on average last year. London-based Mercer Human Resource Consulting found Dubai to have jumped ten places to become more expensive a city to live in than the likes of Washington.

There is also evidence of second round effects of inflation occurring in the labor market. Many GCC countries have increased wages in the public sector this year. In Saudi Arabia, for instance, wages rose by 15 percent; in the UAE, public sector pay was increased by 25 percent for nationals and 15 percent for expatriates, while Kuwaiti nationals received one-off cash bonuses of $ 680 each from the government last year. Such wage increases and cash bonuses improve the real income of nationals and public sector workers, but at the same time generate extra demand; and in an economy already suffering from supply shortages, it pushes prices even higher.

[ratpoison]

Schnowzer, bloody well said. Excellent comeback with some intelligent facts.
All we need now is for some hero to say, "well it's their TRAIN set".