Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
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OK, I started this and it's getting hijacked by certain individual @rselicks who obviouly don't understand the train theory! (by the way, perfect for those in need of pictures to understand the problem)
The point is this:
We're Fatigued!
It no longer goes about the money, how many days I play golf or how many days I spend at the beach. It goes about my health and the lives of the people behind the cockpit door who pay good money to arrive at their destination safely. Emirates has become a MAJOR carrier and needs to adopt the principals and ethics of such. Please don't compare it to p!sswilly charter operators or to "bring your own luchbox and cooldrink" European shuttle services.
Apples to apples my friends. It's time to take a look and see how they the likes of KLM's (for example) manage flight & duty - they've been around longer than ANYONE else and MIGHT just know what it all about!
(Oh and spare me the "they've been taken over by the Frog's" boolsh!it - IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY)
The point is this:
We're Fatigued!
It no longer goes about the money, how many days I play golf or how many days I spend at the beach. It goes about my health and the lives of the people behind the cockpit door who pay good money to arrive at their destination safely. Emirates has become a MAJOR carrier and needs to adopt the principals and ethics of such. Please don't compare it to p!sswilly charter operators or to "bring your own luchbox and cooldrink" European shuttle services.
Apples to apples my friends. It's time to take a look and see how they the likes of KLM's (for example) manage flight & duty - they've been around longer than ANYONE else and MIGHT just know what it all about!
(Oh and spare me the "they've been taken over by the Frog's" boolsh!it - IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY)
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We get the point Warlock but the issue of fatigue raises all the other issues.
Fatigue issue is the direct result of other problems which have been included above. Nobody I think wanted to hijack or belittle the issue you raised. Yes we are fatigued NO argument there. The only tools at our disposal to mitigate it in the short term is to go sick and raise ASRs.
In the long term we must address the other issues.
Fatigue issue is the direct result of other problems which have been included above. Nobody I think wanted to hijack or belittle the issue you raised. Yes we are fatigued NO argument there. The only tools at our disposal to mitigate it in the short term is to go sick and raise ASRs.
In the long term we must address the other issues.
Last edited by Shake; 19th Jan 2006 at 12:12.
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Yes, I understand..... 
K:
Just blowing some steam off
All points regarding the destruction of our T&C's are of course valid, and whew, now that I've had a few stiff drinks and my pork sandwich I feel remarkably more relaxed!
K: Just blowing some steam off
All points regarding the destruction of our T&C's are of course valid, and whew, now that I've had a few stiff drinks and my pork sandwich I feel remarkably more relaxed!
Well O/seas bases should help.............
Too bad theyll only be for new joiners as a way to attract pilots.
B scale is for the loyal boys.............
A scale for the ones who never really wanted to be here....
Too bad theyll only be for new joiners as a way to attract pilots.
B scale is for the loyal boys.............
A scale for the ones who never really wanted to be here....
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Warlock,
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack anything but wanted to try to explain to some of these mates that as the T&Cs spiral lower there comes a point where you have to draw a line in the sand. I think we are there and solving it will directly effect the levels of fatigue.
As you know, the reason you and I are tired is because we don't have enough crew. Now some of that is by design with the new credit system which means it is much cheaper to work us hard than to get another pilot. Problem is they screwed the pooch because they didn't anticipate that the guys here would tell their mates not to bother fronting up because it just isn't worth it anymore.
To get more pilots of the standard they currently require they need to pay more spondoolies. More pilots = less fatigue a very simple equation!
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack anything but wanted to try to explain to some of these mates that as the T&Cs spiral lower there comes a point where you have to draw a line in the sand. I think we are there and solving it will directly effect the levels of fatigue.
As you know, the reason you and I are tired is because we don't have enough crew. Now some of that is by design with the new credit system which means it is much cheaper to work us hard than to get another pilot. Problem is they screwed the pooch because they didn't anticipate that the guys here would tell their mates not to bother fronting up because it just isn't worth it anymore.
To get more pilots of the standard they currently require they need to pay more spondoolies. More pilots = less fatigue a very simple equation!
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Go to the portal and see how many Capts and FO' s come up when you put SK in as a duty. If you've been here long enough, check your log book 4,6 or 8 years back and see if you were working this hard. They made money back then didnt they, and the pay was (relatively) competetive by world standards. CX are going to hire DE FO's onto the pax fleet this year and if you check their payscales and accomodation allowance they are way ahead of a EK captain. As for where we all came from, pardon my arrogance but I always thought "experience" and time with the company ("loyalty") were worth paying for. If not, make all cadets 380 captains tomorrow and I'll go to the beach!
Some gutter language removed. 4HP
Some gutter language removed. 4HP
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 19th Jan 2006 at 21:43.
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Warlock, I am with you on this one, all the bickering about our crap T&C's and how many hours a Doctor works is just a bit of window dressing. However, the real issue for me, is that we have numerous pilots operating outside the restrictions of the FOM and the CARS, i.e 900 hours over the last 12 months (at the end of any given month).
If you have a look at the SK code on the portal, you will find that quite a few of these guys have exceeded their 900 hours, however when they have asked for evidence of a legal document that gives authority to exceed the 900 hours, they are quietly removed from the roster.
Those that don't complain continue to be believe the verbal commentary by rostering and management that "factoring is OK", its not.
Its really simple no FCI exists that modifies the FOM to allow factoring, why, because all FCI's must go through the GCAA for approval.
So if you were over 900 hours on the 1st of January, have a month off, that's what the regulations say.
If you have a look at the SK code on the portal, you will find that quite a few of these guys have exceeded their 900 hours, however when they have asked for evidence of a legal document that gives authority to exceed the 900 hours, they are quietly removed from the roster.
Those that don't complain continue to be believe the verbal commentary by rostering and management that "factoring is OK", its not.
Its really simple no FCI exists that modifies the FOM to allow factoring, why, because all FCI's must go through the GCAA for approval.
So if you were over 900 hours on the 1st of January, have a month off, that's what the regulations say.
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It's going to be great with 800 fatigued and hungry pax on the UK-Oz run too! This quote running in the Airlines, Airports and Routes thread:
''In the latest issue of Stansted Life the front page is of plans to fly from Stansted to Australia for £300. Although these are only plans, it is said that the airline Emirates Express will fly converted A380 aircraft to accomodate 750 to 800 economy passengers. There will be no catering and passengers will have to bring their own food and drink. Emirates will not launch this project in the short term because it wants to stay a full service airline as it is too 'busy elsewhere' ''
Btw, 49 pilots off sick today. May be inflated due hours exceedence for some?
''In the latest issue of Stansted Life the front page is of plans to fly from Stansted to Australia for £300. Although these are only plans, it is said that the airline Emirates Express will fly converted A380 aircraft to accomodate 750 to 800 economy passengers. There will be no catering and passengers will have to bring their own food and drink. Emirates will not launch this project in the short term because it wants to stay a full service airline as it is too 'busy elsewhere' ''
Btw, 49 pilots off sick today. May be inflated due hours exceedence for some?
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Thanks Schnowzer,
a very nice post you wrote, which, for me, really points out the situation and how it can be seen from the inside, most probably in most of the companies around the globe. To compare a company with a train is really one of the best equals I ever heard, clever point of view.
I do understand very well the situation for those who have been earlier "on the train" but I do also understand well those who are still standing at the train station to pick up "their" train.
Recently I have flown with guys who had to face 2 or 3 bankruptcies, and a lot of them with family, they for example had a very different pont of view for my ex company (major carrier) than I had at this time.
I also have respect for those collegues who have entered my "new train" earlier than I did, without suspecting all of the new passengers ,because they just are doing something that others did before. I plead for non guilty.
Returning to the topic,
-Fatigue Crews- I can prove you that major carriers around the world are operating more on the limits than they did before and JAR FTL are really weird
because they are made 50 years ago to cross the atlantic with a Super Conny and not for the demands of today.
If you ask the ex LTU @ EK guys or some collegues from Lufthansa you may get the same feedback. Only Air France and Alitalia maybe, are left over in Europe with strong unions and really good rosters but for i.e. Alitalia with an very uncertain future.
Remember, we are accepting all of this, with our firms under contracts.
During my entire career I have joined companies because they were in expansion, as we all joined probably (I guess on this we could have an accordance) which brings a lot of the described problems.
So we need more crew, EK is looking at this time for new crews..which means also initially more training, more work until the target goal is reached.That might least some more years and the problem of high crew workload will remain. Are we really expecting breaking news??
In my opinion we have to face an almost global situation which means a mass of non organized individuals like qualified pilots on one side (apart from lowbrainie Ahead Adump) and a very well organized industry which will keep us always at the redline, knowing very well the limits. So the individual has to choose his most favoured "individual package" if this is not satisfying at all, there is mybe only one thing left : to vote with your (our) feets.
4/legs/a/day
salute to all of the CX 49ers
a very nice post you wrote, which, for me, really points out the situation and how it can be seen from the inside, most probably in most of the companies around the globe. To compare a company with a train is really one of the best equals I ever heard, clever point of view.
I do understand very well the situation for those who have been earlier "on the train" but I do also understand well those who are still standing at the train station to pick up "their" train.
Recently I have flown with guys who had to face 2 or 3 bankruptcies, and a lot of them with family, they for example had a very different pont of view for my ex company (major carrier) than I had at this time.
I also have respect for those collegues who have entered my "new train" earlier than I did, without suspecting all of the new passengers ,because they just are doing something that others did before. I plead for non guilty.
Returning to the topic,
-Fatigue Crews- I can prove you that major carriers around the world are operating more on the limits than they did before and JAR FTL are really weird
because they are made 50 years ago to cross the atlantic with a Super Conny and not for the demands of today.
If you ask the ex LTU @ EK guys or some collegues from Lufthansa you may get the same feedback. Only Air France and Alitalia maybe, are left over in Europe with strong unions and really good rosters but for i.e. Alitalia with an very uncertain future.
Remember, we are accepting all of this, with our firms under contracts.
During my entire career I have joined companies because they were in expansion, as we all joined probably (I guess on this we could have an accordance) which brings a lot of the described problems.
So we need more crew, EK is looking at this time for new crews..which means also initially more training, more work until the target goal is reached.That might least some more years and the problem of high crew workload will remain. Are we really expecting breaking news??
In my opinion we have to face an almost global situation which means a mass of non organized individuals like qualified pilots on one side (apart from lowbrainie Ahead Adump) and a very well organized industry which will keep us always at the redline, knowing very well the limits. So the individual has to choose his most favoured "individual package" if this is not satisfying at all, there is mybe only one thing left : to vote with your (our) feets.
4/legs/a/day
salute to all of the CX 49ers
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what use complaining? sure enough at least the lower managers read this, but they don’t care a bit. the upper ones even less. for good reason:
look around and you realise the whole airline business is run on the edge with cynical risk management. it’s simply about profit loss versus hull loss. the driving force is profit, so everything related to cost is the enemy. pilots, as well qualified specialist, are one main enemy, because due to their qualification they expect beeing payed and treated accordingly. so the airlines aim to lower the standards as to get lesser qualified and less demanding pilots. the big jet manufacturers realise that and start advertising their new jets as supposedly monkey-proof. the airlines will happily buy these and consequently start paying peanuts. there are enough keen inexperienced drivers who will jump in and sing the song of how easy these products are to fly, so everybody is happy but the well qualified, kicked out professionals, who are treated as arrogant and overpayed relicts. every now and then, after a crash, some guru investigator comes out with findings pointing at quality, training, qualification, selection, adequate rostering and duty parameters. everybody nods and vows to improve and blah blah blah, then goes back doing nothing, as a hull loss with victims has been estimated acceptable every x-years by management, owners, insurance companies, the media and even the customers as long as they get cheaper fares. that’s the cynicism of our industy.
actually the employee does a similar thing, weighting income loss versus job loss. as long as there are low qualified/experienced pilots beeing offered and accepting lower t+c’s, we’re faced with job loss, thus accept income loss. proving managers that this path will eventually lead to accident and therefore less profit is a lenghty one. sure enough the erosion of qualification and quality will take it’s toll, but as long as the managers think that it will hit other companies first, or they will have long left by then and most importantly, as extensively proven, never have to account for it, they will not change one jota.
we will only be in the driver’s seat during the brief times of staff-shortage, when management has screwed up and has not yet recovered. that’s now! it has been said before: if we fly on our days off, fly into discretion too readily, give up vacation etc. etc., we give up a big advantage. the only time we will be given improvement on t+c’s, is when we are needed and cannot be forced. that’s now! We have to let the s*** hit the fan. it won’t hurt the company. airlines in this region are absolutely not proactive, so they need to be confronted with their failure. on the other hand their dictatorial way of managing enables them to react fast and effectively when it is really needed. thus let’s confront them with their screw-up’s instead of mending fences and giving them the argument “it worked up to now, so why hange?”. this will be to our benefit AND to theirs, because it will result in better overall quality and this has always led to greater success. just look at the car industry: the japanese offering much better quality finally sell more at a better price.
that's what we all want, don't we?
ttn
look around and you realise the whole airline business is run on the edge with cynical risk management. it’s simply about profit loss versus hull loss. the driving force is profit, so everything related to cost is the enemy. pilots, as well qualified specialist, are one main enemy, because due to their qualification they expect beeing payed and treated accordingly. so the airlines aim to lower the standards as to get lesser qualified and less demanding pilots. the big jet manufacturers realise that and start advertising their new jets as supposedly monkey-proof. the airlines will happily buy these and consequently start paying peanuts. there are enough keen inexperienced drivers who will jump in and sing the song of how easy these products are to fly, so everybody is happy but the well qualified, kicked out professionals, who are treated as arrogant and overpayed relicts. every now and then, after a crash, some guru investigator comes out with findings pointing at quality, training, qualification, selection, adequate rostering and duty parameters. everybody nods and vows to improve and blah blah blah, then goes back doing nothing, as a hull loss with victims has been estimated acceptable every x-years by management, owners, insurance companies, the media and even the customers as long as they get cheaper fares. that’s the cynicism of our industy.
actually the employee does a similar thing, weighting income loss versus job loss. as long as there are low qualified/experienced pilots beeing offered and accepting lower t+c’s, we’re faced with job loss, thus accept income loss. proving managers that this path will eventually lead to accident and therefore less profit is a lenghty one. sure enough the erosion of qualification and quality will take it’s toll, but as long as the managers think that it will hit other companies first, or they will have long left by then and most importantly, as extensively proven, never have to account for it, they will not change one jota.
we will only be in the driver’s seat during the brief times of staff-shortage, when management has screwed up and has not yet recovered. that’s now! it has been said before: if we fly on our days off, fly into discretion too readily, give up vacation etc. etc., we give up a big advantage. the only time we will be given improvement on t+c’s, is when we are needed and cannot be forced. that’s now! We have to let the s*** hit the fan. it won’t hurt the company. airlines in this region are absolutely not proactive, so they need to be confronted with their failure. on the other hand their dictatorial way of managing enables them to react fast and effectively when it is really needed. thus let’s confront them with their screw-up’s instead of mending fences and giving them the argument “it worked up to now, so why hange?”. this will be to our benefit AND to theirs, because it will result in better overall quality and this has always led to greater success. just look at the car industry: the japanese offering much better quality finally sell more at a better price.
that's what we all want, don't we?
ttn
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Pilot with Emirates
Well, I am surprsed to read all this about Emirates! Ihave applied online and nver heard from them.
I am a captain on the CRJ700 with 4500 TT and 800hrs PIC on and 1700hrs as an F/O in the CRJ200& 700. I am not sure what is competetive there but wold love to get on with them and wreck some heavy time and some $$$$...
Their abuse can not be worse than what we get here at the regionals. fly over 85 hrs /month and no money..
I am a captain on the CRJ700 with 4500 TT and 800hrs PIC on and 1700hrs as an F/O in the CRJ200& 700. I am not sure what is competetive there but wold love to get on with them and wreck some heavy time and some $$$$...
Their abuse can not be worse than what we get here at the regionals. fly over 85 hrs /month and no money..
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Will EK hire less qualified?
So what's the deal at EK?
Obviously if they're short staffed, will us fellas with 7000 hours turboprop time be considered for employment, or will they stick to their min 4000 jet time?
OOOH...that hair tickles...!
[email protected]
Obviously if they're short staffed, will us fellas with 7000 hours turboprop time be considered for employment, or will they stick to their min 4000 jet time?
OOOH...that hair tickles...!
[email protected]
Last edited by nostril.hairs; 27th Jan 2006 at 19:28.
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I can see a lot of guys complaining that they are fatigued. No one can deny it is the company rostering that is causing all of this, but to come to an open forum and cry "poor management" is plain idiodic.
If you are fatigued and feel that it is dangerous to fly, then it is your and only your responsibilty to not do the flight.
Now some might say "yeah but if you do that in the middle east it won't be long before you are called in for tea and biscutts." I say boo hoo stop crying and be the "good manager." If you do a flight and have an accident and your family is left all alone in this world It is your fault plain and simple.
What is more important, keeping a job that you don't like or doing what is best for your family.
7
If you are fatigued and feel that it is dangerous to fly, then it is your and only your responsibilty to not do the flight.
Now some might say "yeah but if you do that in the middle east it won't be long before you are called in for tea and biscutts." I say boo hoo stop crying and be the "good manager." If you do a flight and have an accident and your family is left all alone in this world It is your fault plain and simple.
What is more important, keeping a job that you don't like or doing what is best for your family.
7
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Yes, well the problem is there is no fixed formula to determine FATIGUE and a bunch of pilots calling in fatigued for flights might be seen as orgainised industrial action - which in this country is illegal (except for taxi drivers and construction workers - good on you! Well done).
When the accident happens, the evidence will be swept under the rug. Just like the Gulf Air crash and EK JNB incident.....
When the accident happens, the evidence will be swept under the rug. Just like the Gulf Air crash and EK JNB incident.....
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I'm not saying a bunch of pilots should do this or that. I'm saying one pilot should not work if he feels he is fatigued. Perhaps then he should go to the doctor and let him know so some time off can prescribed to get his body back in shape.
If the company does not like it then they can stuff it. The pilots life and his family's well being are the number one concern.
If that is not acceptable, then it is time to change companies or get into another line of work. Flying hundreds of people around the world while you believe you are fatigued is not only irresponsible, it is bordering on criminal.
If the company does not like it then they can stuff it. The pilots life and his family's well being are the number one concern.
If that is not acceptable, then it is time to change companies or get into another line of work. Flying hundreds of people around the world while you believe you are fatigued is not only irresponsible, it is bordering on criminal.