CTC Wings ATP Scheme (Merged)
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Plenty of ATP'ers coming through into eJ at the moment. All relatively recently completed training as well. It seems that if you've been sat in the database for a while then you can't be sold to an airline...
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Only a handful of ATP'ers coming through at the moment. They called up some ATP'ers for easyjet assesment in the summer but not all of them passed. I know of two Dutch guys who got through, both been in the pool for almost 2 years. Couple of French ATP'ers as well. Demand of CTC partners is high at this moment, anyone know if more ATP'ers are being called up for assesments?
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From my contacts the only ATPers to get anywhere are the CTC own Wings Take-Off pilots although Viper has some info on a few others getting in.
I'm interested in the comment about high demand from CTC though.
easyJet (/eJ swiss) - One more TR course to be filled from what I've been told, what is that 16?? Plus they are taking on the MPL's left by Monarch.
BA - done (apart from FPP's), they are now after experienced folks, plus they can't take ATP's.
Monarch - we all know the answer here (see above)
Thomas Cook - Unlikely after their recent troubles
Jet2 - my understanding is they take from Oxford more recently
Jetstar - Singapore residency required
Thomson - unlikely as they try to recruit from within and have a very long list.
DHL - these folks hire themselves into Leipzig through EAT
CityJet - unlikely after their recent troubles and when was anyone from CTC taken and especially ATP?
Royal Brunei - Brunei residency required
flybe - something going on now but for how many 10...20 tops.
Qatar - MPL and Wings Integrated only
Dragonair - no idea but must hold a "Hong Kong Permanent Identity Card"...plus when was the last person from CTC taken let alone ATP.
BA CityFlyer - Not aware of any ATP's going there in the past (but may have) and how many folks would they take anyway for such a small airline, 5-10?
Doesn't look like high demand to me...and certainly very easily covered by their normal Wings folks at 15-25 a month.
Unfortunately the future is exceptionally poor for the current flock of ATPers. It is only a few months before they are flushed to make way for the new bright eyed and bushy tailed ATP wannabes for which there will be no shortage...unfortunately they will never learn.
CTC have lined their pockets with something in the region of £700,000+ from the 80 or so ATP's swimming in the pool however according to them it is only fair that new folks get a chance! Perhaps it is "only fair" that the managers hand back their bonuses....?
Let's see when the current bunch get flushed whether they change their website which apart from doesn't mention there is a time limit on the hold pool but also still states "since 1994 when the original 'ATP Scheme' started, all those who reached the ATP Database pool of short listed pilots were placed with an airline".
I'm interested in the comment about high demand from CTC though.
easyJet (/eJ swiss) - One more TR course to be filled from what I've been told, what is that 16?? Plus they are taking on the MPL's left by Monarch.
BA - done (apart from FPP's), they are now after experienced folks, plus they can't take ATP's.
Monarch - we all know the answer here (see above)
Thomas Cook - Unlikely after their recent troubles
Jet2 - my understanding is they take from Oxford more recently
Jetstar - Singapore residency required
Thomson - unlikely as they try to recruit from within and have a very long list.
DHL - these folks hire themselves into Leipzig through EAT
CityJet - unlikely after their recent troubles and when was anyone from CTC taken and especially ATP?
Royal Brunei - Brunei residency required
flybe - something going on now but for how many 10...20 tops.
Qatar - MPL and Wings Integrated only
Dragonair - no idea but must hold a "Hong Kong Permanent Identity Card"...plus when was the last person from CTC taken let alone ATP.
BA CityFlyer - Not aware of any ATP's going there in the past (but may have) and how many folks would they take anyway for such a small airline, 5-10?
Doesn't look like high demand to me...and certainly very easily covered by their normal Wings folks at 15-25 a month.
Unfortunately the future is exceptionally poor for the current flock of ATPers. It is only a few months before they are flushed to make way for the new bright eyed and bushy tailed ATP wannabes for which there will be no shortage...unfortunately they will never learn.
CTC have lined their pockets with something in the region of £700,000+ from the 80 or so ATP's swimming in the pool however according to them it is only fair that new folks get a chance! Perhaps it is "only fair" that the managers hand back their bonuses....?
Let's see when the current bunch get flushed whether they change their website which apart from doesn't mention there is a time limit on the hold pool but also still states "since 1994 when the original 'ATP Scheme' started, all those who reached the ATP Database pool of short listed pilots were placed with an airline".
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Which companies take from Oxford then? (Easy and Ryan?) Is there a way to get into the "Oxford" pool, without having to do their entire training? I feel like chances are much higher compared to CTC..
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ATP program have opened up because some of us have been selected by eJ for training - the pool is being dragged upon for sure. Be advised that the holding pool is not "first come first serve" anymore. People are being SELECTED according to airline preferences.
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Just had a quick chat with my friend who is in the pool and knows several others in there too. They read this forum but do not post.
To their knowledge no one from the ATP pool has been taken out in the last 3 years except the CTC Takeoff modular guys that have completed their AQC over the last year. CTC told them that the Airlines prefer the CTC way of training so demanded fully CTC trained pilots even if they were modular. I guess this relates to PJATE1 and I suspect this was their routing.
There is a rumour that there have been a very few taken that are non-CTC but my friend or their contacts do not know any of them. Kind of like an urban myth.
There has been some communication regarding possibilities at eJ and Flybe with more hoops having to be jumped through but this has now gone very very silent and CTC admitted that only one more TR course is planned in 2015 which isn't quite full yet.
In my eyes CTC have opened the course again as come end of Feb the ATP pool will be empty, not because they have been snapped up by airlines but because they are all going to get flushed....unless you are CTC Takeoff of course. This will be the reason they are saying there will be a large chunk of movement. Simply a play on words.
Go in with you eyes wide open, expect to lose everything and take it as a bonus if you get something from it. You need to be able to simply throw away almost £10k and be totally happy about it. It appears CTC have right royally shafted a lot of qualified pilots who are no doubt very angry and I for one feel disappointed for them.
To their knowledge no one from the ATP pool has been taken out in the last 3 years except the CTC Takeoff modular guys that have completed their AQC over the last year. CTC told them that the Airlines prefer the CTC way of training so demanded fully CTC trained pilots even if they were modular. I guess this relates to PJATE1 and I suspect this was their routing.
There is a rumour that there have been a very few taken that are non-CTC but my friend or their contacts do not know any of them. Kind of like an urban myth.
There has been some communication regarding possibilities at eJ and Flybe with more hoops having to be jumped through but this has now gone very very silent and CTC admitted that only one more TR course is planned in 2015 which isn't quite full yet.
In my eyes CTC have opened the course again as come end of Feb the ATP pool will be empty, not because they have been snapped up by airlines but because they are all going to get flushed....unless you are CTC Takeoff of course. This will be the reason they are saying there will be a large chunk of movement. Simply a play on words.
Go in with you eyes wide open, expect to lose everything and take it as a bonus if you get something from it. You need to be able to simply throw away almost £10k and be totally happy about it. It appears CTC have right royally shafted a lot of qualified pilots who are no doubt very angry and I for one feel disappointed for them.
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So, rather than speculating and dealing in hearsay I thought i'd go direct to the horses mouth and I called ctc. there are ATP cadets on the next type rating going to easyjet which starts at the end of this month. I asked about the reasons for opening it up again and they wouldn't be drawn into anything more than a "watch this space" but that they are placing pilots. I take your point about revenue generating but surely they have their hands full with virgin assessments than to be doing ATP assessments for the sake of it?
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UberPilot, apologies you are correct there is no promise. The course is sold on the following statements which they still advertise.
Both taken from their website just now. So read into that how you will.
goosemaverick, I agree with your approach as in ring them direct however you need to ask the right questions. There has never been a question mark about ATP's going for TR but it is believed they are CTC Takeoff pilots and not traditional ATPers. The "watch this space" is simple, since my last post my friend contacted me and corrected me on a few points. According to them:
1. There are no more assessments in 2014 with ATPers due to attend unless the Flybe dates get sorted by then.
2. It is actually the first few days in Feb when they are all flushed and not the end of Feb as I thought.
3. That gives approx. 3 weeks in Jan (due holidays) to get the 80 or so ATPers some kind of assessment with some airline let alone if they meet standard some kind of offer.
So as you can see CTC in the coming weeks will start "crying" out for ATP's as "the ATP pool is about to empty!", they are so busy blah blah.
If it really wasn't about revenue generation then why flush the existing ATP's?? As others have pointed out on here the CTC MCC is the most expensive on the market and therefore an excellent cash cow especially as they don't have to place anyone anymore, simply genius!
The ATP Scheme
One step away from an airline career
One step away from an airline career
There are no guarantees but, since 1994 when the original 'ATP Scheme' started, all those who reached the ATP Database pool of short listed pilots were placed with an airline. It is just the timing that is hard to predict. As we mentioned before, on successful completion of the AQC course to CTC Wings standard, you will be placed in the ATP Database' to await type rating training and airline placement.
goosemaverick, I agree with your approach as in ring them direct however you need to ask the right questions. There has never been a question mark about ATP's going for TR but it is believed they are CTC Takeoff pilots and not traditional ATPers. The "watch this space" is simple, since my last post my friend contacted me and corrected me on a few points. According to them:
1. There are no more assessments in 2014 with ATPers due to attend unless the Flybe dates get sorted by then.
2. It is actually the first few days in Feb when they are all flushed and not the end of Feb as I thought.
3. That gives approx. 3 weeks in Jan (due holidays) to get the 80 or so ATPers some kind of assessment with some airline let alone if they meet standard some kind of offer.
So as you can see CTC in the coming weeks will start "crying" out for ATP's as "the ATP pool is about to empty!", they are so busy blah blah.
If it really wasn't about revenue generation then why flush the existing ATP's?? As others have pointed out on here the CTC MCC is the most expensive on the market and therefore an excellent cash cow especially as they don't have to place anyone anymore, simply genius!
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Fundamentally CTC can only 'sell' people to airlines if said airlines are interested in the product. With the 'market' for cadet pilots being a buyers market (airlines) then they can impose any criteria that they wish, and I believe in this case they have stated they are only interested in fully CTC trained individuals, and ones that have flown relatively recently.
If they can't offload you there's no point sitting in a pool indefinitely with no real prospect of ever getting a position...
If they can't offload you there's no point sitting in a pool indefinitely with no real prospect of ever getting a position...
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Whilst there is a certain element of truth in what UberPilot has mentioned I refer back to what Bloated Stomach asked, why on earth open the ATP program back up again?
If it's not a product that "sells" to the airlines in its traditional sense...why do it?....oh wait although the product is to be "sold" to the airlines they don't in fact have to pay for it...it's the pilot. Therefore if the product cannot be sold CTC still get paid! So I reiterate it is simply a very good CASH COW.
If it was only about recency then simply offer refresher courses...they can make money on those too.
Finally I ask you this then UberPilot, do you think CTC's Sales & Marketing information should reflect the situation with the ATP's and therefore adjust their wording somewhat or do you think all is still fine and dandy?
If it's not a product that "sells" to the airlines in its traditional sense...why do it?....oh wait although the product is to be "sold" to the airlines they don't in fact have to pay for it...it's the pilot. Therefore if the product cannot be sold CTC still get paid! So I reiterate it is simply a very good CASH COW.
If it was only about recency then simply offer refresher courses...they can make money on those too.
Finally I ask you this then UberPilot, do you think CTC's Sales & Marketing information should reflect the situation with the ATP's and therefore adjust their wording somewhat or do you think all is still fine and dandy?
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Of course CTC will advertise the course as potentially leading to an airline placement - flying training is their business. It's down to the customer to weigh up the realistic prospects of anything materialising from it. However, history suggests that unless you've completed CTC take off then you won't be getting a placement any time soon.
It's no different to any other company selling something with marketing hype. It's down to people to assess the chances themselves…
The above is taken from the CTC website.
It's no different to any other company selling something with marketing hype. It's down to people to assess the chances themselves…
Potential placement with a CTC Partner airline*
*Available to those completing the full time Integrated or Modular CPL/MEIR Routes only
*Available to those completing the full time Integrated or Modular CPL/MEIR Routes only
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Hi!
I'm new on this thread but I've been reading it since a long time and I want to say thank you for all the usefull information contained here;
I couldn't find one, I would like to know from someone who did the ATP phase 2 and 3 if there were theory questions at the interview or just HR questions?
Thank you!
I'm new on this thread but I've been reading it since a long time and I want to say thank you for all the usefull information contained here;
I couldn't find one, I would like to know from someone who did the ATP phase 2 and 3 if there were theory questions at the interview or just HR questions?
Thank you!
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Plain and simple
CTC has a lot of overheads and almost certainly long term loans it needs to service every month like most businesses. They are in the business of training. If they ain't constatnly trainig, then they ain't constantly bringing in revenue.
New revenue=new blood
rack em and stack em!
some will get jobs, some won't
plus, not everybody will be the right profile airlines are looking for so there will always be some non-utilised/spare capacity labour kicking about
it's like the Premiership - there are lot more folk that want to play in it, try to play in it and think they can play in it, than actually will
CTC has a lot of overheads and almost certainly long term loans it needs to service every month like most businesses. They are in the business of training. If they ain't constatnly trainig, then they ain't constantly bringing in revenue.
New revenue=new blood
rack em and stack em!
some will get jobs, some won't
plus, not everybody will be the right profile airlines are looking for so there will always be some non-utilised/spare capacity labour kicking about
it's like the Premiership - there are lot more folk that want to play in it, try to play in it and think they can play in it, than actually will
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@ Climb Under Read
Historically speaking (3+years ago) your chances were quite good. Today your chances are nearer to zero. It looks like CTC cannot sell these types of candidates (apparently) to the airlines any more.
In short it is a gamble with the odds stacked heavily against you. If you have the cash to burn I'd say go for it but otherwise stay away. Unless of course you can still do the CTC modular program, those folks are getting interviews.
If you go remember to ask "what about the 90 guys & gals that are going to be flushed from the ATP hold pool to make way for us in the next couple of weeks?, will that also happen to us?" and wait to hear the very well orchestrated answer....it will be learnt verbatim by the sales staff and you will walk away like lemmings saying "wow I must do this program, that's not going to happen to us".
Remember BA, Monarch & easyJet do not take on "non CTC"(i.e. CPL/IR elsewhere apart from OAA & FTE) ATP folks, CTC will say that eJ do but they don't (well according to my contact at eJ they don't anyway, they would simply take from OAA)....so who else is there???
Finally don't get sucked into the "looming pilot shortage", there isn't going to be one, has never been one and will never be one. The industry trains way more pilots than required and has done for many, many years. Check your own CAA stats and you will see that even though we've just had the biggest recession since WWII trainee numbers didn't reduce.
- That's all well and good for the cadets, but can any light be shed on those who merely only do the 36hr AQC with all previous training done elsewhere!
- My genuine query is how many AQC candidates get interviews with partner airlines?
In short it is a gamble with the odds stacked heavily against you. If you have the cash to burn I'd say go for it but otherwise stay away. Unless of course you can still do the CTC modular program, those folks are getting interviews.
If you go remember to ask "what about the 90 guys & gals that are going to be flushed from the ATP hold pool to make way for us in the next couple of weeks?, will that also happen to us?" and wait to hear the very well orchestrated answer....it will be learnt verbatim by the sales staff and you will walk away like lemmings saying "wow I must do this program, that's not going to happen to us".
Remember BA, Monarch & easyJet do not take on "non CTC"(i.e. CPL/IR elsewhere apart from OAA & FTE) ATP folks, CTC will say that eJ do but they don't (well according to my contact at eJ they don't anyway, they would simply take from OAA)....so who else is there???
Finally don't get sucked into the "looming pilot shortage", there isn't going to be one, has never been one and will never be one. The industry trains way more pilots than required and has done for many, many years. Check your own CAA stats and you will see that even though we've just had the biggest recession since WWII trainee numbers didn't reduce.
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It couldn't be said better from you guys...Your comments are absolutely true and somebody has to do something to stop these kind of crazy marketing schemes that are only trying to ruin our careers and life.
I also got an offer to join the ACQ course as an outsider candidate because as they said self-sponsoring a TR is not something they recommend and it is a risky project. Of course there are good and negatives to self sponsor a TR.
They do not recommend self funding a type rating unless you have the promise of an airline job including aircraft base training and line training.
None of the airlines they deal with will take on a newly rated self funded pilot with no experience on the type and it can be a very expensive and risky project.
But I cannot just sit waiting in a list until i get a placement with an airline anymore.
This is for me the riskiest part of the whole idea.
With the ACQ course my skills are getting rusted and outdated while waiting for my turn to come.
On the other hand i did my MCC two years back and my skills needed to be refreshed a long time ago. Imagine doing the ACQ and as a non-previously CTC customer having to wait God knows for how long until a finally get a job.
ACQ is not an efficient way and is definitely a no go for me for the reasons explained.
I think, this scheme will end soon and if not it will possibly end up only being available for CTC modular students who have no other options except for paying CTC more money.
I also got an offer to join the ACQ course as an outsider candidate because as they said self-sponsoring a TR is not something they recommend and it is a risky project. Of course there are good and negatives to self sponsor a TR.
They do not recommend self funding a type rating unless you have the promise of an airline job including aircraft base training and line training.
None of the airlines they deal with will take on a newly rated self funded pilot with no experience on the type and it can be a very expensive and risky project.
But I cannot just sit waiting in a list until i get a placement with an airline anymore.
This is for me the riskiest part of the whole idea.
With the ACQ course my skills are getting rusted and outdated while waiting for my turn to come.
On the other hand i did my MCC two years back and my skills needed to be refreshed a long time ago. Imagine doing the ACQ and as a non-previously CTC customer having to wait God knows for how long until a finally get a job.
ACQ is not an efficient way and is definitely a no go for me for the reasons explained.
I think, this scheme will end soon and if not it will possibly end up only being available for CTC modular students who have no other options except for paying CTC more money.