LION AIR(Merged 2011 - 12)
The linked articles here might also be worth a read.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...-lion-air.html
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...-lion-air.html
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Well Mr.BeCareful,
let's talk math now.
First Option
Flight Instructor-----cost 8k€
Salary------7€/hr
Flight time-----300hrs/year
End result: takes me almost 4 years to repay rating cost, I got 1200 SE flight time with guys on my left side trying to kill me while flying in 40 yr old a/c
Second option
TR-----20k€
"line training"-----25k€
Additional cost---5k€
Flight time-----1200hrs/yr
Salary----16 months x 4000$ = 64k$
End result: in two years I'll have more than 2000hrs flight time on 737 and my debt will be almost payed
Who knows, maybe we wouldn't be here in this situation if most of pilots didn't go to fancy overpriced integrated courses at CTC/Oxford thinking they would be ahead of modular guys. I think that was where P2F was born, paying 100k€ and more for less than 200hrs TT only because FTO had connections with airlines
let's talk math now.
First Option
Flight Instructor-----cost 8k€
Salary------7€/hr
Flight time-----300hrs/year
End result: takes me almost 4 years to repay rating cost, I got 1200 SE flight time with guys on my left side trying to kill me while flying in 40 yr old a/c
Second option
TR-----20k€
"line training"-----25k€
Additional cost---5k€
Flight time-----1200hrs/yr
Salary----16 months x 4000$ = 64k$
End result: in two years I'll have more than 2000hrs flight time on 737 and my debt will be almost payed
Who knows, maybe we wouldn't be here in this situation if most of pilots didn't go to fancy overpriced integrated courses at CTC/Oxford thinking they would be ahead of modular guys. I think that was where P2F was born, paying 100k€ and more for less than 200hrs TT only because FTO had connections with airlines
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Dont worry, lion needs more pilots next year... after this news article. because local pilots will jump to citilink and garuda for better T & C.
For itchy young pilots out there... DONT BOTHER APPLYING TO GARUDA AND CITILINK... THEY ONLY ACCEPT LOCAL PILOTS...
Garuda Indonesia’s low-cost unit, Citilink, expects to almost triple its sales in 2012 as it adds new planes and benefits from Indonesia’s economic growth, an adviser with the company said.
“We’re still optimistic on 2012 being a good year,” Con Korfiatis, an adviser to Citilink’s board of directors, said in an interview in Jakarta on Monday. He didn’t give a precise forecast for revenue, but passenger numbers may more than double to as much as four million, he said.
The carrier plans to receive 11 new Airbus planes next year, roughly doubling its fleet, as it works to add about four new domestic cities to its network.
Lion Air, Indonesia’s biggest budget carrier, also signed a provisional deal for a record 230 Boeing 737 aircraft last month because of rising travel in the world’s fourth-most populous country.
Citilink and Lion Air’s expansion plans are creating competition for pilots and causing congestion at the nation’s airports, Korfiatis said. Citilink will partly meet its need for cabin crew by working with parent Garuda, which has a training program, he said.
“We are pretty confident we can get pilots for those 11 aircraft,” he said.
And airport bottlenecks may ease, helped by government investment plans, the Citilink adviser added.
Indonesia may spend at least Rp 3 trillion ($330 million) on its airports next year, Herry Bakti Gumay, director general of aviation at the Transportation Ministry, said on Tuesday.
The Indonesian economy will likely expand 6.3 percent in the period, according to International Monetary Fund data.
Garuda is planning to make Citilink a separate but fully owned company, with its own operating license. Th is would help pare costs and possibly pave the way for an initial public offering. The move should be completed by the end of March, Korfiatis said.
Shares of state-owned Garuda, the nation’s biggest airline, closed unchanged at Rp 415 in Jakarta on Wednesday. The stock h as tumbled 45 percent from the price at its February IPO.
Citilink’s sales in the first nine month of this year were almost double the full-year tally for 2010, Garuda’s chief financial officer, Elisa Lumbantoruan, said in a text message on Tuesday. He declined to elaborate.
The unit may account for 30 percent of Garuda’s sales by 2015, the CFO said earlier this year. Garuda ordered 25 A320s in June to support Citilink’s growth.
Jakarta Globe 7/12.2011
For itchy young pilots out there... DONT BOTHER APPLYING TO GARUDA AND CITILINK... THEY ONLY ACCEPT LOCAL PILOTS...
Garuda Indonesia’s low-cost unit, Citilink, expects to almost triple its sales in 2012 as it adds new planes and benefits from Indonesia’s economic growth, an adviser with the company said.
“We’re still optimistic on 2012 being a good year,” Con Korfiatis, an adviser to Citilink’s board of directors, said in an interview in Jakarta on Monday. He didn’t give a precise forecast for revenue, but passenger numbers may more than double to as much as four million, he said.
The carrier plans to receive 11 new Airbus planes next year, roughly doubling its fleet, as it works to add about four new domestic cities to its network.
Lion Air, Indonesia’s biggest budget carrier, also signed a provisional deal for a record 230 Boeing 737 aircraft last month because of rising travel in the world’s fourth-most populous country.
Citilink and Lion Air’s expansion plans are creating competition for pilots and causing congestion at the nation’s airports, Korfiatis said. Citilink will partly meet its need for cabin crew by working with parent Garuda, which has a training program, he said.
“We are pretty confident we can get pilots for those 11 aircraft,” he said.
And airport bottlenecks may ease, helped by government investment plans, the Citilink adviser added.
Indonesia may spend at least Rp 3 trillion ($330 million) on its airports next year, Herry Bakti Gumay, director general of aviation at the Transportation Ministry, said on Tuesday.
The Indonesian economy will likely expand 6.3 percent in the period, according to International Monetary Fund data.
Garuda is planning to make Citilink a separate but fully owned company, with its own operating license. Th is would help pare costs and possibly pave the way for an initial public offering. The move should be completed by the end of March, Korfiatis said.
Shares of state-owned Garuda, the nation’s biggest airline, closed unchanged at Rp 415 in Jakarta on Wednesday. The stock h as tumbled 45 percent from the price at its February IPO.
Citilink’s sales in the first nine month of this year were almost double the full-year tally for 2010, Garuda’s chief financial officer, Elisa Lumbantoruan, said in a text message on Tuesday. He declined to elaborate.
The unit may account for 30 percent of Garuda’s sales by 2015, the CFO said earlier this year. Garuda ordered 25 A320s in June to support Citilink’s growth.
Jakarta Globe 7/12.2011
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Being payed back
Mr 88,
Bonding is how you pay your training costs back, ie you stay with said airline for 1,2 years whatever.
Anyone who see's wages you are paid by an airline as a way to redeem your training costs is a little silly I think. Stop trying to look at it with rose coloured glasses.
Instructing will always be around. Guys like the one's on this forum who seem prepared to keep paying money even in bad times prove it.
You all went through flying school and had some good,awesome and probably some very average ones. Stop ditching on instructors. How would you feel if you were an instructor and your student told you that your only doing it cause you couldn't get in an airline. Does anyone think instructors anywhere else in the world get rock star wages?
I would take the 7 quid an hour and 300 hours a year and hold my head high knowing I'm doing a noble and thankless job. Also, if your any good you will get a job through the great contacts you will make being an instructor.
I'm crap at teaching which is why I never took that route. Made my search much harder but got there in the end.
Bonding is how you pay your training costs back, ie you stay with said airline for 1,2 years whatever.
Anyone who see's wages you are paid by an airline as a way to redeem your training costs is a little silly I think. Stop trying to look at it with rose coloured glasses.
Instructing will always be around. Guys like the one's on this forum who seem prepared to keep paying money even in bad times prove it.
You all went through flying school and had some good,awesome and probably some very average ones. Stop ditching on instructors. How would you feel if you were an instructor and your student told you that your only doing it cause you couldn't get in an airline. Does anyone think instructors anywhere else in the world get rock star wages?
I would take the 7 quid an hour and 300 hours a year and hold my head high knowing I'm doing a noble and thankless job. Also, if your any good you will get a job through the great contacts you will make being an instructor.
I'm crap at teaching which is why I never took that route. Made my search much harder but got there in the end.
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@tarmac12
Your logic is ludicrous. So paying back your bond through your salary is fine, but paying back your loan for line training through salary is not fine. In any industry that's exactly how it works! You pay for your education through a student loan and pay it back through your salary. The only difference aviation is bloody expensive.
Instructing is always a good path to build hours. Provided you're capable of instructing and from your previous posts you clearly understand. Do you realize that not so long ago flight schools sponsored FI courses. Now they don't because they are a dearth of pilots looking to build hours. In the last 5 years in UK a FI rating has gone up from £4-5000 to ~£7000 that a pilot pays for himself. Only to earn £7/hr which he/she may or may not enjoy or even be good at. I've had horrendous hour building PPL FI's that up and left without so much as a 'here's your training record filled up' and amazing career FI's that really know how to teach.
I'm digressing. The point is for most becoming a instructor is just a cheaper tier of pay2fly. I won't try and debate the value a 200hr pilot has in teaching a new student pilot over a career instructor sharing his years of experience often from other types of aviation and other walks of life.
Your last comment about being 'any good' and 'getting a job through great contacts' is such a contradiction to your previous posts. So a newbie with an aunt or uncle (read contacts) getting them into an airline is not good but all of a sudden making contacts yourself and getting placed the same way is great.
The contradictions go on. You post about applying to Cathay Pacific and not hearing anything and just prior to that, bash the very programme you applied for stating your friends realized that other avenues would have been better.
In my opinion, whether you want to accept it or not is entirely your choice, is that you seem to care a lot about what other people think. I admire your sense of morals and wish I saw the world as a fairy-tail in which everything ran with amazing efficiency. But, that's not the case. It's an airlines market and they can choose who they want regardless of what route was taken. No airline will hire someone incapable and dangerous. If it does happen it's not the individual who was hired's fault but the system through which he was hired and deemed qualified.
So please stop bashing at things from the sidelines without first hand experience. jetjockey696 has valid points, backs up his arguments, has first hand experience and is relevant to the thread. If you want to discuss it further feel free to PM me or start a blog with your criticisms.
Back to the thread Lion Air 737+500 Line training ->
Your logic is ludicrous. So paying back your bond through your salary is fine, but paying back your loan for line training through salary is not fine. In any industry that's exactly how it works! You pay for your education through a student loan and pay it back through your salary. The only difference aviation is bloody expensive.
Instructing is always a good path to build hours. Provided you're capable of instructing and from your previous posts you clearly understand. Do you realize that not so long ago flight schools sponsored FI courses. Now they don't because they are a dearth of pilots looking to build hours. In the last 5 years in UK a FI rating has gone up from £4-5000 to ~£7000 that a pilot pays for himself. Only to earn £7/hr which he/she may or may not enjoy or even be good at. I've had horrendous hour building PPL FI's that up and left without so much as a 'here's your training record filled up' and amazing career FI's that really know how to teach.
I'm digressing. The point is for most becoming a instructor is just a cheaper tier of pay2fly. I won't try and debate the value a 200hr pilot has in teaching a new student pilot over a career instructor sharing his years of experience often from other types of aviation and other walks of life.
Your last comment about being 'any good' and 'getting a job through great contacts' is such a contradiction to your previous posts. So a newbie with an aunt or uncle (read contacts) getting them into an airline is not good but all of a sudden making contacts yourself and getting placed the same way is great.
The contradictions go on. You post about applying to Cathay Pacific and not hearing anything and just prior to that, bash the very programme you applied for stating your friends realized that other avenues would have been better.
In my opinion, whether you want to accept it or not is entirely your choice, is that you seem to care a lot about what other people think. I admire your sense of morals and wish I saw the world as a fairy-tail in which everything ran with amazing efficiency. But, that's not the case. It's an airlines market and they can choose who they want regardless of what route was taken. No airline will hire someone incapable and dangerous. If it does happen it's not the individual who was hired's fault but the system through which he was hired and deemed qualified.
So please stop bashing at things from the sidelines without first hand experience. jetjockey696 has valid points, backs up his arguments, has first hand experience and is relevant to the thread. If you want to discuss it further feel free to PM me or start a blog with your criticisms.
Back to the thread Lion Air 737+500 Line training ->
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Really, you would accept earning lees than 200 eur/month with masters degree and fATPL with FI??? Really??
Well I don't know where you come from but 200 eur/month is not even close to rent I am right now paying for my apartment...
Well guess what, some of us have to work 13hrs a day(job that they really hate) to afford to be current and to afford their own place...FI salary won't get bread to my table, as much as I love flying and teaching, so please cut the bull**** and stop blaming people doing what they have to do...one day, if someone ask me how did I get ino this industry, I will be able to tell, with a LOT OF HARD WORK and DETERMINATION...whatever anyone else thinks...
(sandlover, sorry for going off the subject)
Well I don't know where you come from but 200 eur/month is not even close to rent I am right now paying for my apartment...
Well guess what, some of us have to work 13hrs a day(job that they really hate) to afford to be current and to afford their own place...FI salary won't get bread to my table, as much as I love flying and teaching, so please cut the bull**** and stop blaming people doing what they have to do...one day, if someone ask me how did I get ino this industry, I will be able to tell, with a LOT OF HARD WORK and DETERMINATION...whatever anyone else thinks...
(sandlover, sorry for going off the subject)
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Contradictions
Dood.
Bonding is where you stay with a company for a certain period of time so as to not owe any money for the training they gave you. This isn't to be confused with salary sacrifice to pay for a type rating, line training etc. Alot of airlines make you sign a 2 year training bond. Leave before 2 years and you have to pay pro rata what you owe for training. Leave after 2 years and you owe nothing. If you need to get endorsed well thats up to you usually but some airlines will bond you or get it back from salary.
As for your relatives getting you into and airline is the same as you doing it yourself isn't really the same. If I had the opportunity for a family member to get me in of course I would do it but getting it yourself feels so much better. The true meaning of that post was if a relative gets you your first job don't think that the next one will be as easy. Time in book doesn't equal employability.
Last time I checked Cathay Pacific is a no money up front scheme for zero hour guys up to ATPL guys to be SO's. Five years after signing on you can leave no questions and you didn't have to pay a cent. I have no problems with anyone who has a go at it.
Sometimes somone has to be harsh for the message to be heard. I haven't had a fairytale ride at all. I washed dishes in a restaurant and stacked shelves at the local supermarket for two years and even drove a truck whilst on my aviation adventure. I still had to rent a flat and buy food and pay bills. All this whilst keeping current. Which I failed to do at one point and it cost me a job.
Bonding is where you stay with a company for a certain period of time so as to not owe any money for the training they gave you. This isn't to be confused with salary sacrifice to pay for a type rating, line training etc. Alot of airlines make you sign a 2 year training bond. Leave before 2 years and you have to pay pro rata what you owe for training. Leave after 2 years and you owe nothing. If you need to get endorsed well thats up to you usually but some airlines will bond you or get it back from salary.
As for your relatives getting you into and airline is the same as you doing it yourself isn't really the same. If I had the opportunity for a family member to get me in of course I would do it but getting it yourself feels so much better. The true meaning of that post was if a relative gets you your first job don't think that the next one will be as easy. Time in book doesn't equal employability.
Last time I checked Cathay Pacific is a no money up front scheme for zero hour guys up to ATPL guys to be SO's. Five years after signing on you can leave no questions and you didn't have to pay a cent. I have no problems with anyone who has a go at it.
Sometimes somone has to be harsh for the message to be heard. I haven't had a fairytale ride at all. I washed dishes in a restaurant and stacked shelves at the local supermarket for two years and even drove a truck whilst on my aviation adventure. I still had to rent a flat and buy food and pay bills. All this whilst keeping current. Which I failed to do at one point and it cost me a job.
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hello all,
pay to work or be a flight instructor, you don't make any money at the end.
flight instructor makes to low for a living. Especially in winter.1000-1500 euro a months.
and pay to fly, you never make any money as you pay to fly.
So whatever you choose, you are pretty much screwed. Plenty of fi without job, and plenty of 320 pilots looking for jobs.
I mean look what s going on TV, they all try to save the euro. Unemployment is high, greece and italy have problems, we all have problems, and we still see crazy pilot spending more and more thinking they will get a break.
this is hilarous!
pay to work or be a flight instructor, you don't make any money at the end.
flight instructor makes to low for a living. Especially in winter.1000-1500 euro a months.
and pay to fly, you never make any money as you pay to fly.
So whatever you choose, you are pretty much screwed. Plenty of fi without job, and plenty of 320 pilots looking for jobs.
I mean look what s going on TV, they all try to save the euro. Unemployment is high, greece and italy have problems, we all have problems, and we still see crazy pilot spending more and more thinking they will get a break.
this is hilarous!
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First Option
Flight Instructor-----cost 8k€
Salary------7€/hr
Flight time-----300hrs/year
End result: takes me almost 4 years to repay rating cost, I got 1200 SE flight time with guys on my left side trying to kill me while flying in 40 yr old a/c
Flight Instructor-----cost 8k€
Salary------7€/hr
Flight time-----300hrs/year
End result: takes me almost 4 years to repay rating cost, I got 1200 SE flight time with guys on my left side trying to kill me while flying in 40 yr old a/c
300 hours a year? Which flight school are you talking about?
7 Euro an hour after 4 years? Something is wrong somewhere.
I think you took all the worst situations possible to put them together and created your "standard" instructor path.
Students trying to kill you? What are you talking about? I have more than 2000 hours of instruction, nobody tried to kill me.
2 Years and half after I started instruction (CAD $30 an hour) I was captain on King air, so don't sell your "standard" instructor path you created here to everybody.
TR-----20k€
"line training"-----25k€
Additional cost---5k€
Flight time-----1200hrs/yr
Salary----16 months x 4000$ = 64k$
End result: in two years I'll have more than 2000hrs flight time on 737 and my debt will be almost payed
"line training"-----25k€
Additional cost---5k€
Flight time-----1200hrs/yr
Salary----16 months x 4000$ = 64k$
End result: in two years I'll have more than 2000hrs flight time on 737 and my debt will be almost payed
Paying to work, it means you are the slave of your environment, and ready to do anything to find a short cut. What kind of pilot does (will it) it make you?
Paying your way up to what you consider the goal to reach without doing the travel to get there is destroying the image of airline pilot itself. And when you will have destroyed it, nothing will be left for you to be proud and enjoy you career you didn't build.
1200 hours a year? Haven't you read all the witnesses who went through lion air and eaglejet on pprune?
Let's put some irony now: don't you realize that if you don't pay to work, the same position will be available without the need to pay for it?
Pilot is his worst enemy.
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Hi jetjockey696!
Those are precious infos! Thanks for sharing!
Pilots who don't want to get a credit and don't want to build jet hours shouldn't criticise mates's option.
Some prefer to build a career: flying SEP, MEP and hopefully at the age of 45 find an airline which will sponsor them with a TR;
Others prefer to get a bank credit, fly jet engine planes directly after finishing FTO at the age of 25 and at the age of 27 they've paid TR and build 2000hrs!
Easy to choose i'd say.
Those are precious infos! Thanks for sharing!
Pilots who don't want to get a credit and don't want to build jet hours shouldn't criticise mates's option.
Some prefer to build a career: flying SEP, MEP and hopefully at the age of 45 find an airline which will sponsor them with a TR;
Others prefer to get a bank credit, fly jet engine planes directly after finishing FTO at the age of 25 and at the age of 27 they've paid TR and build 2000hrs!
Easy to choose i'd say.
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OK, very flawed concept there Mr. 88.
Let's look at it from another angle:
You are PAYING someone to generate revenue for them. Seriously, who does that?! They need you. Without a qualified pilot in the right seat, they DO NOT get to generate revenue, ergo they cannot do business, ergo they go out of business. They are not flying empty airplanes so you can get hours; they generate revenue by transporting passengers and cargo, and you are PAYING to do this for them and holding out hope that at some point they'll actually pay you!
This bring me to the question you never answered - if there are more of you P2F folks coming after you, why should your "employer" PAY YOU for doing the same exact work that someone else is WILLING TO PAY to do?
Let's look at it from another angle:
You are PAYING someone to generate revenue for them. Seriously, who does that?! They need you. Without a qualified pilot in the right seat, they DO NOT get to generate revenue, ergo they cannot do business, ergo they go out of business. They are not flying empty airplanes so you can get hours; they generate revenue by transporting passengers and cargo, and you are PAYING to do this for them and holding out hope that at some point they'll actually pay you!
This bring me to the question you never answered - if there are more of you P2F folks coming after you, why should your "employer" PAY YOU for doing the same exact work that someone else is WILLING TO PAY to do?
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Everything now.
Idsouto,
If you don't expect do go from a MEP to jet until your 45 you should look at another line of work!
The tried and true method that many people took before you just doesn't happen quick enough for you I see. Alot of people on this forum want instant gratification. I will again try to post something constructive.
With the global market the way it is and so few jobs on offer, those who can wait it out will be the winners. Aviation is cyclic and has always had peaks and troughs. Many aviation hopefulls will simply give up all together or let thier currency lapse. This will put all the smart guys and girls in the position of being able to say to employers that when the market was down, I stayed current and tried to fly as much as possible with what my budget would allow. The ones who walked away and then came runnning back when hiring resumes will be in a much less favourable position as when the question is asked of what they have done since getting thier licence the reply will be "nothing". Not the best thing to say in an interview!
Hurry up and wait isn't the answer anyone wants to hear but I don't think P2f is the answer either. If you feel P2f is your only option and your not going to put yourself or your family in a compromised postition financially, then do what you have to do. I wish you the best of luck with your aviation career. Be as professional as you can and don't let other people's poor standards rub off on you. If your going to Asia dont loose your temper in public or berate a superior in front of other employees.
Good luck and safe flying.
If you don't expect do go from a MEP to jet until your 45 you should look at another line of work!
The tried and true method that many people took before you just doesn't happen quick enough for you I see. Alot of people on this forum want instant gratification. I will again try to post something constructive.
With the global market the way it is and so few jobs on offer, those who can wait it out will be the winners. Aviation is cyclic and has always had peaks and troughs. Many aviation hopefulls will simply give up all together or let thier currency lapse. This will put all the smart guys and girls in the position of being able to say to employers that when the market was down, I stayed current and tried to fly as much as possible with what my budget would allow. The ones who walked away and then came runnning back when hiring resumes will be in a much less favourable position as when the question is asked of what they have done since getting thier licence the reply will be "nothing". Not the best thing to say in an interview!
Hurry up and wait isn't the answer anyone wants to hear but I don't think P2f is the answer either. If you feel P2f is your only option and your not going to put yourself or your family in a compromised postition financially, then do what you have to do. I wish you the best of luck with your aviation career. Be as professional as you can and don't let other people's poor standards rub off on you. If your going to Asia dont loose your temper in public or berate a superior in front of other employees.
Good luck and safe flying.
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I have a friend doing this, and his experience is that it works, but expect it to take much longer. From TR finished to start flying it took 6 months from arriving in Jakarta, and even with a new TR it was not a walk in the park.
Ruining T & C's, can't see that in these cases, as not many would go to fly there anyway, most the companies with these schemes would be pretty unattractive for people from Europe anyway.
I would not do it myself, but I can see why some do it, will give you much time on type, and doing the calculations on their 500 hrs + 12 month contract, it works out economical way to get in to the Jet.
Ruining T & C's, can't see that in these cases, as not many would go to fly there anyway, most the companies with these schemes would be pretty unattractive for people from Europe anyway.
I would not do it myself, but I can see why some do it, will give you much time on type, and doing the calculations on their 500 hrs + 12 month contract, it works out economical way to get in to the Jet.
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Watch out
Hello again,
Just spoke to a 737 Captain on the weekend who is based in Japan. He reckons after the fiasco that Vietnam Airlines had with a Korean guy who was supposed to have flown for Batavia (P2f) but apparantly didn't, there will be some airlines putting bans on hiring anyone who trained with an Indonesian carrier. (The guy had written in nearly 600 hours bus time in his book but it seems he only did the endorsement and a few circuits) This is the story that atm is not confirmed but appears to be credible.
A Singapore based LCC was also bitten by the Indo bug when it hired 12 ex Batavia Capt's after the company cut wages and a big chunk of the pilot force resigned in protest. The flying standard of these Captains was supposed to have been quite terrible. The company line was that with a little training they will be fine. Well they weren't and all but I think one never made it to line. Company then put wages back up but the majority of guys had already left Singapore! If the Captains are that bad then how good do you think the training was that FO's got?
Above mentioned Captain warned that anyone taking up the P2f scheme in Asia should remember that the airlines participating are usually considered sub-standard by European/Amercian/Canadian companies and those countries aviation authorites. He hasn't a clue about the European providers but he's sure you would never see BA/AF-KLM/Lufthansa or Iberian ever offering one.
Just read this and keep it at the back of your mind. Thought that if you put all the info out there people can be better informed with the decisions they make.
Does anyone know any more news on the Vietnam Air incident?
Just spoke to a 737 Captain on the weekend who is based in Japan. He reckons after the fiasco that Vietnam Airlines had with a Korean guy who was supposed to have flown for Batavia (P2f) but apparantly didn't, there will be some airlines putting bans on hiring anyone who trained with an Indonesian carrier. (The guy had written in nearly 600 hours bus time in his book but it seems he only did the endorsement and a few circuits) This is the story that atm is not confirmed but appears to be credible.
A Singapore based LCC was also bitten by the Indo bug when it hired 12 ex Batavia Capt's after the company cut wages and a big chunk of the pilot force resigned in protest. The flying standard of these Captains was supposed to have been quite terrible. The company line was that with a little training they will be fine. Well they weren't and all but I think one never made it to line. Company then put wages back up but the majority of guys had already left Singapore! If the Captains are that bad then how good do you think the training was that FO's got?
Above mentioned Captain warned that anyone taking up the P2f scheme in Asia should remember that the airlines participating are usually considered sub-standard by European/Amercian/Canadian companies and those countries aviation authorites. He hasn't a clue about the European providers but he's sure you would never see BA/AF-KLM/Lufthansa or Iberian ever offering one.
Just read this and keep it at the back of your mind. Thought that if you put all the info out there people can be better informed with the decisions they make.
Does anyone know any more news on the Vietnam Air incident?
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What you are saying, does not apply for Lion Air from what I have heard from first hand information.
My friend who did his TR in Germany, got blasted when he did his first checkride there, and had to do retraining before getting ready to start flying. His first hand information was that standards was very high.
They are also affiliated with CAE in addition to Eagle Jet, so this what you are saying is all complete BS! It would be fairly easy to have the logbook time verified with such a company. That it is not an ideal place to spend your life/career is another matter, but at least give some constructive response instead of being P2F hater, trying to spread fear.
The ones who do this, will not care about what you say either, as more succeed then fail doing these schemes, it is not like we see hundreds of pilots coming on PPrune and telling how they got ripped of or failed with the EJ / Lion Air program, pretty sure there would be some disgruntled posts about this if this was the norm.
If you pay for it, you still have to be good enough, if not, you will not get in either! At least not on this program.
My friend who did his TR in Germany, got blasted when he did his first checkride there, and had to do retraining before getting ready to start flying. His first hand information was that standards was very high.
They are also affiliated with CAE in addition to Eagle Jet, so this what you are saying is all complete BS! It would be fairly easy to have the logbook time verified with such a company. That it is not an ideal place to spend your life/career is another matter, but at least give some constructive response instead of being P2F hater, trying to spread fear.
The ones who do this, will not care about what you say either, as more succeed then fail doing these schemes, it is not like we see hundreds of pilots coming on PPrune and telling how they got ripped of or failed with the EJ / Lion Air program, pretty sure there would be some disgruntled posts about this if this was the norm.
If you pay for it, you still have to be good enough, if not, you will not get in either! At least not on this program.
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Not bashing
Truckflyer,
I wasn't bashing P2f in my last post but giving advice to people who are going to do it (re an earlier post where I stated that if you must do it be careful about it) to be very careful who they pick. I'm under the impression that a few Greek or Italian LCC's do P2f? There's an old thread about Royal Air Maroc doing a P2f aswell.
The Eagle Jet website states that European and Asian bases are available and I'm sure the CAE one says it has various locations.
Why would you go to Asia if you can do it in Europe on North Africa with a little more reputable airline?
This is a serious question and can anyone who has researched this more than me be able to anwer my question please?
I wasn't bashing P2f in my last post but giving advice to people who are going to do it (re an earlier post where I stated that if you must do it be careful about it) to be very careful who they pick. I'm under the impression that a few Greek or Italian LCC's do P2f? There's an old thread about Royal Air Maroc doing a P2f aswell.
The Eagle Jet website states that European and Asian bases are available and I'm sure the CAE one says it has various locations.
Why would you go to Asia if you can do it in Europe on North Africa with a little more reputable airline?
This is a serious question and can anyone who has researched this more than me be able to anwer my question please?
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Sorry guy to interrupt your slap and tickle contest... the guys from batavia are the worst.. a bunch of cowboys. Even Lion are reluctant to hire them.. pee poor airmanship and safety. A lot applied, a lot failed. just cant fly (Capt). My friend did a simulator with a Batavia Capt. and it was his first time he every did a hydraulic fail A and B. Batavia PC was a simple engine out, go around and land that kind of thing.
Dont even mention about maintenance. you better call the roadside service (AAA, AA or Greenflag) to fix your plane than ask the maintenance guy.
Batavia has been cautioned or banned (cant remember) by Saudi after there pilots (A330) was caught not having enough rest period, the practise is common. these guys fly the haji came back to JKT less than 24hs rest then back to Saudi.. NOT because of scheduling but because of the pay.. night stop pay.. USD.
Dont even mention about maintenance. you better call the roadside service (AAA, AA or Greenflag) to fix your plane than ask the maintenance guy.
Batavia has been cautioned or banned (cant remember) by Saudi after there pilots (A330) was caught not having enough rest period, the practise is common. these guys fly the haji came back to JKT less than 24hs rest then back to Saudi.. NOT because of scheduling but because of the pay.. night stop pay.. USD.
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I am not sure why "Batavia " is brought up in the discussion here.
If there was 12 under pair captains hired by a Singapore LCC, they would not have been trough the P2F, neither have I seen much companies offering P2F associated with Batavia, their standards might be terrible, I can not give my opinion as I do not have any details about them.
There is however enough threads that bashes P2F, rightfully or wrongfully, this thread could try to avoid these, and keep to the requested facts.
- and from first hand reports I get from my friend who is currently flying for Lion Air - it has been real hard work, and initially he was not up to standard, and it took much more time to get up to standard then expected. Even though he had a TR with a reputable german TRTO, which in his opinion compared to the requirement by Lion Air was well under pair with regards to training standards.
I guess it means a TR without experience is not worth a lot.
For some P2F will be the right choice, for many they will sooner or late at least have to pay their own TR to get a job, either we like it or not, good or bad T & C's.
If an Oxford or CTC student has an advantage due to the school they have chosen, and the overpriced training they have chosen, what is wrong for a modular who have spent considerably less to get himself an advantage, for less then the Oxford/CTC student would have spent in total for training + line training?
Fact of life, money rules, it seems though P2F is not a big problem, rather that we have to pay for own TR is the immediate issue which has come to stay, and associated with any new job today in addition to a salary that would even make an Aldi/Tesco worker on minimum pay go on strike.
How can the airlines defend paying their FO's £1200 to £1600 a month? That is the disgrace, but we accept it, and live with it, hoping for a sunny day in the future where there will be a golden package available.
However those in the P2F bracket, will have to go trough this after reaching 500 hours.
However the Lion deal, if it works, is not the worst on the market, at least they promise you 12 months of work, at reasonable pay, if it happens we will have to wait and see.
If there was 12 under pair captains hired by a Singapore LCC, they would not have been trough the P2F, neither have I seen much companies offering P2F associated with Batavia, their standards might be terrible, I can not give my opinion as I do not have any details about them.
There is however enough threads that bashes P2F, rightfully or wrongfully, this thread could try to avoid these, and keep to the requested facts.
- and from first hand reports I get from my friend who is currently flying for Lion Air - it has been real hard work, and initially he was not up to standard, and it took much more time to get up to standard then expected. Even though he had a TR with a reputable german TRTO, which in his opinion compared to the requirement by Lion Air was well under pair with regards to training standards.
I guess it means a TR without experience is not worth a lot.
For some P2F will be the right choice, for many they will sooner or late at least have to pay their own TR to get a job, either we like it or not, good or bad T & C's.
If an Oxford or CTC student has an advantage due to the school they have chosen, and the overpriced training they have chosen, what is wrong for a modular who have spent considerably less to get himself an advantage, for less then the Oxford/CTC student would have spent in total for training + line training?
Fact of life, money rules, it seems though P2F is not a big problem, rather that we have to pay for own TR is the immediate issue which has come to stay, and associated with any new job today in addition to a salary that would even make an Aldi/Tesco worker on minimum pay go on strike.
How can the airlines defend paying their FO's £1200 to £1600 a month? That is the disgrace, but we accept it, and live with it, hoping for a sunny day in the future where there will be a golden package available.
However those in the P2F bracket, will have to go trough this after reaching 500 hours.
However the Lion deal, if it works, is not the worst on the market, at least they promise you 12 months of work, at reasonable pay, if it happens we will have to wait and see.