So where are all the jobs then?

[Bealzebub]

towing planes, flying airmed (tossing the carcus), flying traffic watch, counting or shooting coyotes while flying.

I am guessing you haven't been out of the US much?

if you give me a job then I'll refit your bathroom for free, ex-tradesman so experienced and very good, you pay for the materials thou! (I've tried everything else to get a job, so I may as well try this!.

Pay for materials? This is not what happens in 2009! You refit the bathroom, and pay for the materials which I will supply at retail cost. Then you go in a hold pool where I might use your services in the future if nobody else is available to provide them at their own cost.

[Avturbound]

You Start it Finish It

I have just spent the last 30 mins reading back on all the posts about, "Aviation will be the death of you", "get out whilst you can" and so on so forth. Let me put it from a young aviation enthusiast. Before I continue I would just like to say for all the people that post negative comments about getting jobs, its to hard, or that want to get to the big 777 and fly Airlines one day, get paid good. YOU HAVE NO HOPE If you got into aviation for the money you will soon near the end of your road in Aviation.

I am a 22 year old, After completing my commercial pilot licence, there were limited jobs i mean limited. After working two jobs for 4 mths and sending out resumes i landed a job mustering in the middle of know where i had to move away from all my family and friends to pursue my love of aviation. After 6 mths i had gained money and experience which i put into gaining my Instructor rating once again i had to work low paying jobs to support my cause whilst looking for a job. after "9 MTHS'' i was happy to hear that i had received a job at a busy aviation college which i currently work today. just passing 1000hrs i have gained a great deal of experience and skill Aviation is not easy people if you get into it for the money, your taking it all wrong. I will get to where i want to go in this industry one day, not tomorrow not next week. maybe in 5-10yrs! but i will tell you one thing, if your heart is in it and you want it bad enough, then dont give up if you do you may as well roll over and die. as my grandfather once put it, "If you start something boy, Finish it" Ive started my career and wont stop till its finished, ask yourself the same question?

[Roadrunner Once]

What question?

[C-N]

Roadrunner Once,
You didn't read the post thoroughly. Read the last sentence, that's the question.

[Grass strip basher]

It is always interesting to see that the ones who say "I don't do it for the money" etc etc are usually in their early twenties.... i.e. no mortgage, no wife/kids, not bored with years sat in the cruise.... will be interesting to see how their attitude changes as they move through life and they have responsibilities beyond looking after no. 1....

[A10Warthog]

Soon 1 year since I lost my damn flying job, tired of this office work, I need to get flying soon!!

3 years ago, i had, jet airways, air baltic, some others offers, turned all down, and this time, nothing !! ! ! ! !

[Avturbound]

Get a clue.!

Its funny how your quick to criticize the fact i talk bout not being in it for the money. Just because im 22 doesn't mean i haven't got a mortgage, to put you straight now i do have a mortgage. As for the kids that may come at a later date when im more financially secure, If your so mature you would have seen the depth of what i said, meaning not in for the money i don't see myself flying a 747 and wanting to get paid the big bucks, flying in Alaska or Canada or Australia as float plane/mustering/charter whatever it may be will be challenging and rewarding. NOT all people need a 100k salary buddy to support themselves. My family has lived on a lot less then that for decades. Get a clue!

[Finals19]

Enough thread creep guys! I really don't care a rats a*rse about somebody's grammar (there are more essential things that would exclude them from getting a flying job!!)

To re-iterate, and at the risk of repitition, THERE IS NO MONEY ANYMORE IN AVIATION. Give it up now if you think thats an incentive. The only money is the money that you shell out in vast amounts over the years. I think most guys end up doing it initially as a passion, and in the later years because they have fallen into the vicious trap of not being "employable" to do anything else - for all the reasons cited here.

I am far from some twentysomething. I've been in it about 7 years now, commerical for about 5, and have really made sweet FA. However, I have had some wild and amazing flying experience and none of it anywhere near a jet. Money? - Its a concern, and has been echoed here, one that you really should think about, because its gonna affect your life aspirations - big time. By this I mean family, relationships, the lot.

I don't think I'll ever be rich in this game and acknowledge that. Luckily I don't think you need a 100K job to be happy (unlike the rest of the world around me it seems) But a little forward planning in the early stages will prevent it sewering you in your thirties / forties when things like kids and family become a priority and the job (should) take a back seat.

Personally, I think running into a jet job is a crying shame - you miss out on the real flying experience that smaller operations offer - raw hand flying in all wx is really where you cut your skills. I wouldn't have done anything different.

[SU27]

hi!!!!

Ill be on Deansgate, Manchester, October 3rd 2009. Lunch time-ish.... Im handing out fivers to every sad little boy and girl who paid for either an integrated course or a SELF SPONSORED TYPE RATING.........

Come and get some money and have a go at me if u like!!!!

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !

Good luck with your 'in the black life style' ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Denasgate, Manchester, October 3rd 2009. 12pm.

Ill be wearing a black rabbit outfit with large pink shoes!!!!

LOL!!!!!

[SU27]

Sorry i meant in the red....Ive been out in some fine bars....

Your 'in the red lifestyle'....come and meet me at Edwards the fine shoe outlet when you finally get some money together....

[CABUS]

I totally agree with Finals, flying a prop or small jet in small strips, stuck in the wx on a daily basis is great experience! In my previous job I had engine fires, multiple rejected t/o's along with severe ice and it has all been great experience. Now I am just stuck on a NAT track above all the wx, only place it seems to become a problem is in Lapland on the winter flights or dodging the odd TX over the Alps or down the Adriatic. There has been some good points made however, I dont agree with the point 'there is no money in aviation', I would say money in aviation is hard to find but becomes easier with hours. I know these jobs are probably all taken aswell but I would reccomend safety pilot work! Its great fun and very rewarding, the money sucks but you can often get to fly on an empty sector getting multi hours for free! Not a bad thing to do while firing out CV's.

Seriously SU27 cheer up! There is no need for comments like that! I really hope you manage to remove that massive chip from your shoulder. Must go happy hour ends soon

[Luke SkyToddler]

There's still plenty of money in aviation finals19 ... just about every F/O in the big four arab gulf airlines are pulling around £60 - 70,000 a year tax free, with a free house provided and all bills / schooling / healthcare etc paid, which I guess if you turn into a pre-tax equivalent in europe would be a package well in excess of the magical £100,000 you refer to. Captains earn roughly 50% more again, with time to command running around 4 - 5 years in most places. Two years so far out here and I have paid off most of my debts and made some investments, and I can honest-to-god see myself having enough in the bank to retire after another 10 or 12 years, and I will still be only mid 40's at that stage. And yes I'm married with kids.

I'm not by any means trying to talk it up or show off, I know the mid east is not everyone's cup of tea, but it is unnecessary and demoralizing for the wannabe's to sit here and say blanket things like "money is finished in aviation" because it's clearly not. There are thousands and thousands of pilots out here all on the same employment contracts, and many thousands more will be needed in the next few years believe me.

I am nothing special as a pilot whatsoever (and the truth is that a damn trained monkey could do 99% of what we do in long haul). Getting the first job is like that competition they do in shopping malls where a bunch of people have to stand still and keep their hand on the car, after however many days have gone by, the last person touching the car after everyone else has given up wins. NEVER. GIVE. UP. and you shall be richly rewarded.

[Finals19]

Luke...

Sorry, my thread may have been slightly misleading (and no doubt a little emotive!) Agreed that ultimately it can become more attractive financially - I suppose I was trying to convey the impression that it is often (in the early years) a struggle more than a benefit, and this in comparison to other industries (e.g I.T.) where you can be waay better off in a very short space of time with a lot less grief.

Perhaps its an issue thats more endemic to Europe / UK, but what other job do you have to fork out (up to) £100K in return for a start salary of £25-30K (in some cases)?

In the UK I think its now more a case that T&C's are becoming massively diluted and the rewards aren't there like ppl think. Suppose I was just trying illustrate that to some of the "greener" forumites.

It still confounds me when I hear of guys sitting proudly in the rhs of a jet, with <500hrs (very commendable, don't get me wrong) but with a debt of £100K. Just seems like fuzzy logic.

[911slf]

What professions don't require investment?

While the investment to train as an airline pilot is very high, there are few professions that do not require substantial investment up front now. Do a degree at any British university and you are likely to graduate with debts around £30,000. More if it is medicine. More still soon when the cap on course fees is lifted. If you want to train as a barrister, factor in a couple of years unpaid traineeship after that.

In all professions, having the wherewithal to fund training is becoming more of a factor than having a higher level of ability than the next candidate. What you think should be done depends on your politics. My son thought about aviation as a career and I am very glad he was put off it an early stage. For myself, I am glad I never took aviation further than hang gliding.

[INNflight]

what other job do you have to fork out (up to) £100K in return for a start salary of £25-30K (in some cases)

See, but that is most people's MAIN PROBLEM!!!

You don't need a fecking 100,00.00 pounds to get a CPL!

There's a world outside the big flying schools. I hold a FAA CPL ME IR and within the next year also a JAA CPL ME IR. Total cost so far has been about 28,000 EUROS. What's that? 25k pounds?

And no, I did not get to train in suit and tie, did not do my PPL in a 2008 Cirrus or my multi in a 2008 Twin Star. All planes I flew on were built before I was even born.

Still, eventually I am gonna sit in the same seat as someone from Oxford, who has put 5 times the money into the same license.

Do some research, seariously

[Avius]

Naturally, this forum is full of enthusiasts in their early 20's who will tell, that being a pilot is is more than about money. Idealism is afterall a virtue, when you are 20+. It is just natural.. I was one of those people many years ago.

The truth is however,that once you are past the "honeymoon" period your views will also naturally be changing.

The old saying, that "beauty is only skin-deep" exists for a reason. Sure, flying a big 747-400 will still be sort of fun, but your battle with lack of sleep and chronic jetlag will be much higher on your list of priorities.

You might not be there for those special moments when your son/daughter makes her first steps, nor may you see their graduation. Your family might have to celebrate many of the christmas holidays without you.

Additionally, in your 20's you have normally very little responsibilities - no wife, house and children to look after, therefore no mortgage, school tuitions and healthcare costs to confront.

Layoffs in bad times - and aviation seems to have many of those - might affect you more than other professions and having a non aviation related qualification as a backup is vital if you want to avoid anxieties.

Overall, depending what kind of person you are and how seriously you take your commitments, there is a fairly steep price to pay in this profession. In the past, the pay and the extended time off was one of the factors, that helped to compensate.

The deterioration of conditions over the last decades has taken a toll on the profession as the whole and whilst the public perception of you might still be glorious, your wallet will no longer validate it.

So go ahead, make your dream a reality, just know all the facts

[M14_P]

Good reality check this one, well said Shotover, and frankly pretty much all the other comments here.
I think the problem with many, is they don't actually know what they REALLY want out of life or aviation. That old story about the flight instructor imagining how great it would be to get a little xcountry IFR, then theres the fella in the Twin at 10,000ft etc etc, and then the boeing pilot looking at the stars wishing he was an astronaut, then there is the astronaut looking back at earth and pinpointing the very spot he first soloed in a cub.

It is almost as if we need to escape out of our own minds to look back at oneself to realise what it is that we REALLY want.
Before you get buried with debt in this industry I think more young people should stop and really think about what they actually want out of life and out of aviation. I think it takes many alot longer than just a few months to realise what their ultimate potential really is.

I know for sure what I want and always have wanted, and am well on the way but it seems crazy, that so many people are so depressed about it, about aviation, about flying. I can't believe why anyone would want to spend the sort of money we all have to spend and not totally love flying.

[Desk-pilot]

Great posts

Some great posts and some good advice here. I'm afraid the truth is that eventually flying does become a job like any other and no I couldn't believe that would happen to me either! Ask Hugh Grant and he'll tell you he finds acting boring too.

It's hard to imagine this when you're a wannabe and totally absorbed in aviation but after a while most people start to want to earn more money for less work and that means a better company and job. It's those better companies and jobs that are in short supply so those of us already on the lower rungs of the food chain are almost as frustrated as the job hunting wannabe.

Frankly the problem with flying now is exactly as Avius said - the extended time off and pay that helped to compensate for not being home on your Daughter's birthday are no longer there - ergo you start to reassess the priorities in your life.

[corsair]

My current job is great, I fly maybe two or three days a week, am rarely away from home except during the high season. It's fun flying too, for the most part and I feel lucky to be able to do it. I performed a little low level flypast the other day with lots of banking and diving. There aren't many flying jobs around that allow that kind of thing anymore. I sometimes look out the windscreen and marvel at the sights I see, never a day the same, cloudscapes, sunsets and scenery. Every day presents a different challenge and I feel privileged to be sitting there in the high seat.

But there are times when you're up there and all you can think about is going home or what you'll have for dinner. You get tired and the last thing you want to do is fly. I am usually glad when I shut down at the end of the day's work. But that goes for any job. The main flaw with it is the money. It doesn't pay enough nor will it ever pay enough for it to be a permanent job. So I must walk away from it sooner rather than later.

It's the eternal problem. When I was twenty two, it would have been perfect as a starter job, right now with a family and mortgage, it's an expensive luxury. So I must move on, quite possibly out of flying altogether. Newbies, don't PM me for info. I'm not going just yet and in any case you will never get the job. It requires hours and maturity not just flying skills.

The twenty two year old in me is horrified at the idea but the Father and husband has to face reality.

Attitudes change but really being a pilot is something different to the herd and even if we become jaded about it, isn't it better to be a jaded pilot than a jaded accountant, or a jaded factory worker or shop worker.

So young and enthusiastic pilots, the job will pall eventually. That's life. As for those jaded amongst us, well at least it was fun once. Some jobs are never fun, never interesting and never have memorable moments. I know all too well having had a few of those over the years.

I'm enjoying the flying at the moment particularly as I realise that it's unsustainable and will end soon. But everything comes to a natural end. Such is life.

[Avturbound]

Corsair

Corsair could not have said it better myself.! Such is life- ned kelly i believe good way to end it and a way that i look at my life in some aspect. I agree with what your saying therfore being a younger '22' yr old pilot atm im enjoying my job but getting tired of it and will move on soon to something more challenging however i wont always focus on aviation scuba diving whilst flying as a pilot has always been another of my dreams which i will soon be taking on. Any way good advice enjoy your flying stay safe.