So where are all the jobs then?
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IFR is important of course but it is really easy when you get a few hundred or thousand hours as experience...
Frankly, less hours in the right environment is much better.
Sure, a job is a job and being an FI is better than being unemployed but don't do too much of it (thousands of hours wouldn't look so good at all, to say the least).
Just like Single Pilot Ops is better than being an FI but don't do too much of it.
And Multi Crew, light turbo prop is better than the two above but.... You guessed it, don't do too much of it (Light turbo prop operators tend to be a bit "flexible" with SOPs, EU OPS)
Depending on your career goals, all the above stuff are good but too much of any and you will fall in the category of people, airlines (and large Biz operators), will have some suspicion about. Plus, the older you get, the more aware of that you should be.
[n]VnavLotus[/b], don't get me wrong. I don't disagree with things like
it is about experience, skills, relationship, confidence etc.
It is true, it will be valuable and might even make the difference at the interview but it is far from being enough. yet, combined with the right experience, it will probably make you a nice guy to fly with.
To the unemployed snobs who look down on FIs, please don't. They may have demonstrated a better judgement than many, by chosing the right option once their CPL ticket in the pocket. And they have job., they are employed as pilots...
To the FI who thinks, he is better because he flies circles, in VMC, in a 152 then don't. This could be your downfall.
To all of you, just be smart with you career. Do what it takes to keep or get quality experience, to make your CV really appealing.
As always, the road to success is.... Not just one. For each pilot there is a way which will work and everywhere we failed, someone else might have succeeded. It is worth pursuing as many options you encounter or ideas you get and be very persistant all the way (but not a pain in the bum).
Good luck all !
Educated Hillbilly
VNA,
I was an instructor myself and have had a brief spell flying the heavier stuff, so I am speaking from experience.
I do agree with alot of the points you make, working as an FI is a great experience and it is better to be instructing that not flying at all.
But for completing a type rating IFR currency and a bit of time of some higher performace types will be far better preparation than several hundred hours of VFR instructing. As said the usefulness of instructional hours to employers is the fact your hours will allow you to meet insurance requirments and reduces your time to command. Fair enough get the no applied instruments restriction lifted and then instructing will allow you to maintain IFR currency.
Amex has hit a very good point, do too much of one thing for too long and you start to think you are getting good at something, but if you don't keep progressing then you can fall into a comfort zone and it can get harder to get back into the learning zone.
I was an instructor myself and have had a brief spell flying the heavier stuff, so I am speaking from experience.
I do agree with alot of the points you make, working as an FI is a great experience and it is better to be instructing that not flying at all.
But for completing a type rating IFR currency and a bit of time of some higher performace types will be far better preparation than several hundred hours of VFR instructing. As said the usefulness of instructional hours to employers is the fact your hours will allow you to meet insurance requirments and reduces your time to command. Fair enough get the no applied instruments restriction lifted and then instructing will allow you to maintain IFR currency.
Amex has hit a very good point, do too much of one thing for too long and you start to think you are getting good at something, but if you don't keep progressing then you can fall into a comfort zone and it can get harder to get back into the learning zone.
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hi
im a cabin crew workinh in dubai...is it really getting that difficult to get pilot jobs these days..?? im interested bcause im going for my course in few months and i keep thinking if im making the right move plus its a total risk for me cause im not someone who likes to study a lot... but i just thought that this job is worthy enough to put wat i like and dont like aside and work hard for it... appericiate ur help
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sharmatanoo
It is very very difficult (almost impossible) to get a job today. It will take many years before airlines hire pilots again.
You must read this. It is going to take you time but it is worth it.
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...n-upon-us.html
Wait first and read this website very carefully.
It is very very difficult (almost impossible) to get a job today. It will take many years before airlines hire pilots again.
You must read this. It is going to take you time but it is worth it.
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...n-upon-us.html
Wait first and read this website very carefully.
Educated Hillbilly
VNA, it is generally regarded that there is not much advantage to be gained by having more than a 1000 hours of single engine VFR time. When JAA introducing the 500 multi crew time required for an ATPL then any single engine hours past 1000 will not help you achieve a green licence (frustratingly this also means single crew multi hours also do not count towards this requirement).
With regard to piston twin and light turbine twins, if it is single pilot ops then some airlines do view pilots with alot of single pilot time as a potential CRM problem, not sure what would constitute too much single ops time and not saying I necessarily agree with that view either.
While some airlines will view instructional hours as useful due to been able to progress you to command quicker, there are also some operators who will factor down single engine hours when determining time to command, I guess that is to stop an instructor with 2500 hours SEP time gaining a jet command within six months of employment, so in that sense the factoring down of single engine time is not unreasonable.
With regard to piston twin and light turbine twins, if it is single pilot ops then some airlines do view pilots with alot of single pilot time as a potential CRM problem, not sure what would constitute too much single ops time and not saying I necessarily agree with that view either.
While some airlines will view instructional hours as useful due to been able to progress you to command quicker, there are also some operators who will factor down single engine hours when determining time to command, I guess that is to stop an instructor with 2500 hours SEP time gaining a jet command within six months of employment, so in that sense the factoring down of single engine time is not unreasonable.
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Hey
I assume you went the modular route which leaves you few options ie low fare airlines, regional airlines or instructing. (All the nice companies want 1500tt with jet or integrated) You probably don't have enough hours for air taxi I assume.
I was in a similar position to you one year ago but now I'm flyin a 737-800 (guess who for?) I had almost 700 hours & most of it in twins and my only hope in the end was to go to "you know who" & give them €30000 for a type rating but it worked.
Now I get €80 per block hour and have nearly 600 hours in a jet.
They are hirin next March but possibly so are Cityjet (but an S instead of a C would suit them better), Flybe & maybe Easyjet.
A CPL with no hours means little as so does a type rating without hours on type. You must have known the industry was like this before you started. Pilots are plentiful especially those with low hours and as for passing all your tests 1st time, congrats Maverick but whatever.
I hope you have a type rating in your budget if not go for instructing & climb up the ranks and you'll eventually get on a kingair or corporate jet.
If you gotta go back to your old job, get your FI rating & instruct on weekends and when the recession blows over you'll be a good position.
Unfortunately for the UK & Eire boys & girls the continenatals won't even look at us, even though it doesn't work the other way round. Such as life.
All the best mate
I was in a similar position to you one year ago but now I'm flyin a 737-800 (guess who for?) I had almost 700 hours & most of it in twins and my only hope in the end was to go to "you know who" & give them €30000 for a type rating but it worked.
Now I get €80 per block hour and have nearly 600 hours in a jet.
They are hirin next March but possibly so are Cityjet (but an S instead of a C would suit them better), Flybe & maybe Easyjet.
A CPL with no hours means little as so does a type rating without hours on type. You must have known the industry was like this before you started. Pilots are plentiful especially those with low hours and as for passing all your tests 1st time, congrats Maverick but whatever.
I hope you have a type rating in your budget if not go for instructing & climb up the ranks and you'll eventually get on a kingair or corporate jet.
If you gotta go back to your old job, get your FI rating & instruct on weekends and when the recession blows over you'll be a good position.
Unfortunately for the UK & Eire boys & girls the continenatals won't even look at us, even though it doesn't work the other way round. Such as life.
All the best mate
Last edited by CaptainJim; 19th Nov 2008 at 01:13.
I assume you went the modular route which leaves you few options ie low fare airlines, regional airlines or instructing. (All the nice companies want 1500tt with jet or integrated)
Whereas you might have gone to an airline which you don't consider to be 'nice', not very far away from you there could very well be another airline which is considered to be much 'nicer' (ie uniform paid, type rating paid, car park paid, sim paid, pension and private medical paid, etc...). They recently recruited older, modular pilots straight out of training, with low hours and no jet time straight on to their jet fleet, which makes a mockery of your statement above however much you might wish it to be true.
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It is impossible to second guess the metrics that Airlines use for employing pilots. The favoured background tends to be whatever route the person doing the employment took and that varies enormously from company to company. One way to move forward with an airline is to work for them in another capacity - anything will do - and that way they will know you are not an employment risk. I know a number of pilots that fly big shiny jets that used to be dispatchers, flight attendents, ops staff etc and made the transfer when the company needed pilots.
The biggest influencing factor in a company hiring pilots is "dammit, we don't have enough pilots and we just lost a revenue sector because we were short of a driver. Get some more jeeves" and right now thats not happening. Most companies are clinging on for grim death and just trying to bleed cash at a sustainable rate.
Times aint good - fly anything you can and stay busy. I don't agree that you can have too much time on a twin or instructing. If the economic environment is poor an employer will be interested in the fact that you stayed in the air. If you can't do that, they will be interested if you did something else that was interesting (don't sit and watch tricia). It took me years to get my first proper job so keep the faith.
The biggest influencing factor in a company hiring pilots is "dammit, we don't have enough pilots and we just lost a revenue sector because we were short of a driver. Get some more jeeves" and right now thats not happening. Most companies are clinging on for grim death and just trying to bleed cash at a sustainable rate.
Times aint good - fly anything you can and stay busy. I don't agree that you can have too much time on a twin or instructing. If the economic environment is poor an employer will be interested in the fact that you stayed in the air. If you can't do that, they will be interested if you did something else that was interesting (don't sit and watch tricia). It took me years to get my first proper job so keep the faith.
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Scratchingthesky,
Anyone who's been laid off with a 737 or an A320 rating is going to struggle. Every man and his dog has a rating for these aircraft. With the likes of XL's and Sterlings demise, it comes as no surprise that there are hundreds of experienced TR'd jet guys looking for work.
On the other side of the coin, the likes of Eastern Airways are struggling to recruit suitable captains for the J41 fleet. Why? Theres no spare 41 Tr'd guys on the market. Like many TP operators, they probably wouldnt touch experienced jet pilots because they know fine well they'll up sticks and be off at the slightest sniff of a better jet job elsewhere.
I was speaking to the Depute Chief Pilot for a freight/cargo TP operator recently who told me he was inundated with calls from XL jet guys and other jet pilots who'd been laid off. Low and behold...he's turned them all away in favour of recruiting Fatpl holders if and when the need arises.
Anyone who's been laid off with a 737 or an A320 rating is going to struggle. Every man and his dog has a rating for these aircraft. With the likes of XL's and Sterlings demise, it comes as no surprise that there are hundreds of experienced TR'd jet guys looking for work.
On the other side of the coin, the likes of Eastern Airways are struggling to recruit suitable captains for the J41 fleet. Why? Theres no spare 41 Tr'd guys on the market. Like many TP operators, they probably wouldnt touch experienced jet pilots because they know fine well they'll up sticks and be off at the slightest sniff of a better jet job elsewhere.
I was speaking to the Depute Chief Pilot for a freight/cargo TP operator recently who told me he was inundated with calls from XL jet guys and other jet pilots who'd been laid off. Low and behold...he's turned them all away in favour of recruiting Fatpl holders if and when the need arises.
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if it is single pilot ops then some airlines do view pilots with alot of single pilot time as a potential CRM problem,
Would you care to enlighten us as to which airlines think this way. Mr harbour flyer? Somehow, I dont think you have the balls to, if you really know that is.
Do you have any single pilot IFR multi time yourself?
Do you know how many airline pilots come from this type of background?
I doubt it!
Rest assured people. Learning a companies set of sops is no more difficult for an air taxi pilot, than it is for a green as grass newbie.
I know who I would rather employ.
Educated Hillbilly
Mr Ryder, re-read my post and you will see it is not a view I necessarily agree with.
Easyjet require 500 hours multi crew so you can have all the single pilot time in the world, it won't get you into Easyjet.
I do remember speaking to someone from Jet2 at the Balpa conference who had commented on the CRM issues with some pilots who had flown in single pilot ops for too long. Please read the post by Amex, while some experience of certain things is good, too much can "type" set you.
I don't think it is unreasonable assumption that some one who has spent ten years operating as a single pilot may find adapting to multi crew ops a bit of a culture shock and there are of course those can make the transition without any issues.
I have flown with Captains from an air taxi background and I have done some PA work in the past. So I am fully aware of the number of pilots that do stream from this background.
Easyjet require 500 hours multi crew so you can have all the single pilot time in the world, it won't get you into Easyjet.
I do remember speaking to someone from Jet2 at the Balpa conference who had commented on the CRM issues with some pilots who had flown in single pilot ops for too long. Please read the post by Amex, while some experience of certain things is good, too much can "type" set you.
I don't think it is unreasonable assumption that some one who has spent ten years operating as a single pilot may find adapting to multi crew ops a bit of a culture shock and there are of course those can make the transition without any issues.
I have flown with Captains from an air taxi background and I have done some PA work in the past. So I am fully aware of the number of pilots that do stream from this background.
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I guess there are a lot of us who are floating in the same boat. Got my FAA cpl way back in march'08. Came back to India hoping to get a job as soon as i get my license converted to Indian. Now ended up sitting at home doing nothing, waiting for the jobs to come out.
Some times it just makes me wonder whether there was actually any sort of boom in the industry when the media and the companies projected a need for atleast 5000 pilots in the next couple of years.
A friend of mine suggested me to look out.. as in out side india.. and now i am searching for ways to convert my license to JAA too as companies in europe ask for jaa license. Could any one be of any help.
Some times it just makes me wonder whether there was actually any sort of boom in the industry when the media and the companies projected a need for atleast 5000 pilots in the next couple of years.
A friend of mine suggested me to look out.. as in out side india.. and now i am searching for ways to convert my license to JAA too as companies in europe ask for jaa license. Could any one be of any help.
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This post makes interesting reading.
Amex you make a point that
(Light turbo prop operators tend to be a bit "flexible" with SOPs, EU OPS)
I can assure you that where I work I do not flex anything with regard to Sop's or EU OPS or flight safety! What a statement.
I couldn’t disagree more. I have many friends in big airlines and I assure you that they have many bloopers with regard to Sop's, Ops, basic airmanship. A big airline, with big jets is no more professional than a smaller airline with TP's, come on. Where is your evidence?
Alas, Pprune is not what it was.
I can assure you that all of the guys that have moved on from my work have been very successful in there 'big companies' and the flying on TP's has prepared them very well. One thing is that all these guys can actually fly an aircraft. There’s a skill an FI, TP or taxi pilot has that guys with just 200-250 hours just hasn’t had the time to develop yet.
It has been noted by various training departments how good the handling skills of the guys that left were.
Sop's are Sop's, its not rocket science. You make the effort, you learn them, practice in the sim and line training and when you are deemed safe, you are let loose.
I have flown with ex single pilot guys and never had a problem.
Its very difficult to get a job at the moment and while I agree you don’t want to do any one thing for to long, if your flying, your flying and at the moment that is a result.
All the best to those trying to get a job.
There is a lot of good advice on here and getting a position at a company that looks like it may hire in the near future doing something other than flying is a very good idea. It has worked for friends of mine.
Best of luck and keep going.
If you have the licence you have come to far to give up.
Amex you make a point that
(Light turbo prop operators tend to be a bit "flexible" with SOPs, EU OPS)
I can assure you that where I work I do not flex anything with regard to Sop's or EU OPS or flight safety! What a statement.
I couldn’t disagree more. I have many friends in big airlines and I assure you that they have many bloopers with regard to Sop's, Ops, basic airmanship. A big airline, with big jets is no more professional than a smaller airline with TP's, come on. Where is your evidence?
Alas, Pprune is not what it was.
I can assure you that all of the guys that have moved on from my work have been very successful in there 'big companies' and the flying on TP's has prepared them very well. One thing is that all these guys can actually fly an aircraft. There’s a skill an FI, TP or taxi pilot has that guys with just 200-250 hours just hasn’t had the time to develop yet.
It has been noted by various training departments how good the handling skills of the guys that left were.
Sop's are Sop's, its not rocket science. You make the effort, you learn them, practice in the sim and line training and when you are deemed safe, you are let loose.
I have flown with ex single pilot guys and never had a problem.
Its very difficult to get a job at the moment and while I agree you don’t want to do any one thing for to long, if your flying, your flying and at the moment that is a result.
All the best to those trying to get a job.
There is a lot of good advice on here and getting a position at a company that looks like it may hire in the near future doing something other than flying is a very good idea. It has worked for friends of mine.
Best of luck and keep going.
If you have the licence you have come to far to give up.
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This is the thread I've been looking for, some great information in here. Good luck to all for any type of work, integrated with 200 hours or modular with 1000's
I guess its a bit like the seniority with the airline it dosnt come down to your hours but more like your loyalty, attitude and transparency.
Still if it was me, which it may well be in 2 years time I would be trying to log some CFI time.
I guess its a bit like the seniority with the airline it dosnt come down to your hours but more like your loyalty, attitude and transparency.
Still if it was me, which it may well be in 2 years time I would be trying to log some CFI time.
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Amex you make a point that
(Light turbo prop operators tend to be a bit "flexible" with SOPs, EU OPS)
I can assure you that where I work I do not flex anything with regard to Sop's or EU OPS or flight safety! What a statement.
I couldn’t disagree more. I have many friends in big airlines and I assure you that they have many bloopers with regard to Sop's, Ops, basic airmanship. A big airline, with big jets is no more professional than a smaller airline with TP's, come on. Where is your evidence?
(Light turbo prop operators tend to be a bit "flexible" with SOPs, EU OPS)
I can assure you that where I work I do not flex anything with regard to Sop's or EU OPS or flight safety! What a statement.
I couldn’t disagree more. I have many friends in big airlines and I assure you that they have many bloopers with regard to Sop's, Ops, basic airmanship. A big airline, with big jets is no more professional than a smaller airline with TP's, come on. Where is your evidence?
If I have to name one airline I think that tends to deliver good quality pilots, I would that say that Easyjet (note that I ve never worked for them and have no interest in LoCos) seems to have guys who operates along the same good standards. You fly with one or the other of their guys only to see there is very little difference on how they run the flight, manage under pressure or decide to go for whatever option they see as better. Yet some of them aren't as good but overall, they "tend" to display some very good qualities.
I see guys with all sorts of background coming through and never assume one thing or another but I am perfectly allowed to observe trends or even to be pleasantly surprised (and believe me, I like when people do a good job. Makes me impatient to work with them).
So if your company has a strong SOP culture all the good things then do not assume either that all similar operators do. It is a big world out there and you would be amazed at what goes on. I know we all are when we see it. It is a very good thing for you and your future and like you said, you should always aim for that. Again you know that, I know that but for many it takes some time to realise and apply this philosophy.
On a slightly different note (and like you thought my comment was aimed at you personally), you may take the following point for you.
- I see somebody who has high standards a bit like one of the TV preachers
... You should spread the good word, show others the light and make yourself the messiah of the "highest standards" of all, and inspire others to follow your example. Super Ted, if you are good then try to do what it takes to inspire others to be the same... If you do, I promise you that if I see you in the sim, you will have me delighted.I rest my case your honour.
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Guys,
I am not sure if that's how any industry work. I mean
FAA CFII, 500+ hours, , CAAC verified, Half way to DGCA License. Ready to relocate even to Moon.
If this aint getting me an entry level or flight instructor job, then what might. Suggest please
I am not sure if that's how any industry work. I mean
FAA CFII, 500+ hours, , CAAC verified, Half way to DGCA License. Ready to relocate even to Moon.
If this aint getting me an entry level or flight instructor job, then what might. Suggest please
Last edited by xuejiesandi; 26th Apr 2010 at 05:14.
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First Charity Org. Of Pilotos In Europe.
To all the new pilots:
I just heard of a new org. in Spain looking for volunters and sponsors to fly over the Sahara at least one week a month,dont think that you will get paid cos is a charity org. bringing food,medicines,peolple,... from Tifariti to Tindouf but they will take care of all your expenses(transport,acommodation and food).I know is not a proper job but you still building up your hours and helping others.
For this pilots looking for a bit of adventure visit: www.alassolidarias.org
or send yopur cv to [email protected]
Good luck and Happy flights!!!!!!!!!!
I just heard of a new org. in Spain looking for volunters and sponsors to fly over the Sahara at least one week a month,dont think that you will get paid cos is a charity org. bringing food,medicines,peolple,... from Tifariti to Tindouf but they will take care of all your expenses(transport,acommodation and food).I know is not a proper job but you still building up your hours and helping others.
For this pilots looking for a bit of adventure visit: www.alassolidarias.org
or send yopur cv to [email protected]
Good luck and Happy flights!!!!!!!!!!