So where are all the jobs then?

[Bustahymen]

Do your apprentiship!

I agree with LST too. If you're not one of the few lucky ones to get an airline job soon after training the it's probably time to do the exciting apprentiship!

I qualified just after 09/11 - possibly aviation's worst time since it's invention. First i did some para-dropping and glider towing. After a bit of deliberation I got an FI rating, then instructed for over 2 years, spent 6 months flying a twin in africa. Then things picked up in 2004/5 and i flew a piston twin in UK, next was a twin turbine job. Eventually I got an airline position in 2006.

That was hard work! But fun too - so you wannabees should maybe accept that if your timing is unlucky like mine was, it might be your turn to fly those smaller a/c. That flying was actually much more fun than my airline work now, so I wouldnt miss it for the world if i lived this life again! Not that I'm not grateful for my job now though!!

Pull yourselves together and go and enjoy flying aeroplanes!!

[PtP]

Be careful what you wish for!!!!

Listen you guys... There is no substitute for hard graft in this industry.... The apprentice route is the way to go... My personal experience was AFI to 750 hrs Air Taxi for 9 months. Regional turbo prop for 18 months. 737 for 2 and a half years and for the past 7 yrs B747-400. And you know what.... ive never been so bloody miserable... put me back on a 30 seat turbo prop out of a regional base!!!

Good luck to all who start in this bloody career and if you are considering it... go and do something else before its too late!!

[skyhunter]

C208B

Hi,
I'm hunting after career options. Flying C208B sounds like a good job when you want to gain hours. I'm curious how you got the job and If you know about some operators hiring at the moment.
Brgrds

[mo_744]

C208

Good day Sky. There is a couple of jobs on the C208.. Check nothern air Tanzania.. They r quite good from what i have heard. Also susi air in indonesia is good. How many hours r u on?

Best of luck

[Always Moving]

Susi Air!!!

Good is a subjective term.....

Can you tell them, the ball park figure of the salary? I believe it is around 1000USD.
I personally will not consider that good even if I only had 250h.

[eikido]

How can people be so naiv? How can people expect to get a RHS on a shiny Jet from start?

I never expected to get a Jet job straight away. I haven't even started training. I abandoned my dream when i was 18 because i knew what it would involve. Now i'm following my dream again but this time i'm ready to work HARD and i have the funds. Glad i didn't do it when i was 18!!!!!

But doesn't this apply to all sorts of professions it?

· To be able to get the title "lawyer", you must work 5 years as a "jurist". (In Sweden, could be different elsewhere).

· I have a friend who is working hard as a music producer and earn a living out of it. THAT is difficult!!! This friend has two other friends who recently got a hit on radio after 10 years of hard work as producers. I myself have read many interviews and barographs about DJ's and music producers who worked their way up and it took them many many years.

· To start working as a project leader within engineering you will need at least 5 years of practical work within engineering. My experienced working buddies gets to travel all the time doing all the fun work while I’m sitting in front of the computer like a dork doing what I’m told to do.

· Opening up a new business, whatever it is, a restaurant, barber shop, car dealer, selling carpets, clothes, eye glasses etc... will need many years to earn a good reputation to get a decent amount of customers.

· Just take a peek at all the shows in Las Vegas and ask all the actors what their dream is. How many actors didn't work their ass of whoring themselves to get where they are today.

· How about art and Design? Just look at the experience the designers have at the car industries forexamples. Where did they start? From 0 at home doing probably free work in the beginning.

· Someone gave a great example about doctors here. No need to mention it.

· How many of these above didn’t sweat for bread and water.


I can't even believe that you can get a RHS on a Jet newly graduated! Simply amazing that there is even a slightest chance!

[Cadet Michael]

Getting the job

Hi everyone,

Id like to ask about Penny Austin, as I heard she is really good interview coach. I tried to log on into her web site but its out of date. Can you please advise me how to contact Penny Austin?
I am a student pilot in UK and in April 2009 I should get ATPL, trying prepare for my interviews in advanced...

Thanks

[cortilla]

Eikido

Just wanted to point out, it is possible. My first job flying was in the RHS of a shiny 737. It is possible, not easy, but possible. (well maybe not now with all the redundancies at various airlines, but it'll pick up again at some point in the future)

[eikido]

Yes mate i'm fully aware of that. I've heard about a few who got a jet job at ~200h.

However i don't understand how because there is always someone who has more experience than someone with ~200h. I've read numerous posts about Flight Instructors who had to work for several years until they got that jet job. Does that mean that Flight Instructing actually have low effect or something? How come these ~200h pilots get chosen over experienced pilots? It really cannot be that hard to find someone for a jet job with more than ~200h. I can't make the math in my head, it's not logical.

Edit: Just read dartagnans post.

this is what I 'm doing(lousy jobs), and I am in this business since 12-13 years and logged thousand of hours(cargo, para,instructor,...).12 years of struggling.Does it worth?not for me anymore....but why should I do something else?give up?

He has done everything, cargo, instructing, para etc! Thousands of hours and fresh 200h pilots get the jobs over him. Thats 1 example! I've read many more.

[MIKECR]

For the simple reason that 200 hour pilots straight out of flight training from one of the big well known schools, are a known quantity. They are airline 'ready' so to speak. They have been 'moulded' if you like. An airline suddenly needs 20 pilots asap so they go straight to a training provider and ask for the top 20 students. They know what final product theyre getting, the FTO has already done all the necessary filtering and vetting. Hence the integrated route has always been a preferred route for those who want to get straight to a jet job from the word go. They pay for the privilege but thats jut the way it go's.

[eikido]

Thank you for the answer MIKECR.

However, i still don't find it logical that a fresh integrated student trained "the airline way" is more desirable than an experienced say flight instructor.

[MIKECR]

eikido,

Logic doesnt necessarily come into it.

The airlines who prefer the 1000 hour instructors are the likes of the regional TP operators. For the simple reason they can achieve a full ATPL at 1500 hours much quicker than the 200 hour counterpart and can promote them to left seat quickly.

200 hour pilots straight from flight school will always be more attractice to bigger jet operators for the reasons I stated in my previous post. They are a 'known' product, are easily available, and the vetting processes etc have already been completed by the FTO. Their training records and school reports are also easily accessable. They will probably have jet experience already from the likes of a JOC course etc. BA, Ezy, the bucket and spade companies will always hoover up these people.

Of course the FI with 1000 hours has much more experience but you have to put yourself in the shoes of the recruiter at the 'jet' airline. Do you sit and trawl through a 100 cv's from a mixed bag of people or is it perhaps easier to go straight to the big FTO and ask for 20 of the best students who can start next week.

It seems harsh and I can totally sympathise - im a modular guy who finished my fATPL last April and still have no flying job. First time passes in everything from IR and CPl to all atpl exams with average score well over 90%. At best I have a couple of hold pool slots, with start dates no where in sight. At present I tow gliders, drop parachutists, even fly as a safety pilot in a king air. Its incredibly frustrating seeing people get jobs in front of me but im sure my lucky break will come soon. I wasnt(and couldnt) prepared to pay for an integrated course hence I went modular. Getting a job is incredibly tough, even more so in the current climate. I remain positive and keep my flying current in the interim. Another MEIR renewal will hurt but hey ho, no pain no gain.

[eikido]

I have sympathy for you mate and i wish you all the best. I hope you get to a jet job real soon.

I do agree with you that it's probably easier for the airline to just ask an a FTO if they have 20 students ready to work after say a week.

Ever considered instructing mate?

[flyboy1818]

I can't believe that we are having a full blown modular vs integrated debate during a recession. I'm modular and currently doing my ATPL exams, it was refreshing to see during a recent trip to cranfield for a brush up that for the first time in almost a decade integrated students are agreeing with modular students that we are all in the same boat with the same licence. Infact some of the integrated students expressed the opnion that they had made the wrong choice and that there debt levels were so high that it was Jet job or bust, they could not afford to live off the lower salaries of an instructor or air taxi Pilot. Mike at the end of the day everyone has there opnion, mine is that its a personal choice based around personnal circumstance and there is no reason why a modular student cannot get a Jet job straight out of training infact it happened to a friend just last week. In the same way that students from the local community school often do just as well or not better as kids from the local boarding school, modular students can excel, it just takes a little bit more effort thats all!

[KAG]

Susi Air!!!

Good is a subjective term.....

Can you tell them, the ball park figure of the salary? I believe it is around 1000USD.
I personally will not consider that good even if I only had 250h.

I had an offer few years ago it was 2000$ to start. I understand that after 2 years you average 3000$-4000$ a month, accomodation provided. I have never worked there, it was what I was offered.

And I don' t think you could be PIC with 250 hours. They use to ask 1000-1500 hours with some turbine time.
As I said I have not worked there, so I am not 100% sure of the accuracy of my post, but the pay is defenitely not 1000$.

[MIKECR]

flyboy818,

Sorry, but dont know what your getting at. I wasnt aware at any stage we were having a 'debate' about anything. Eikido was questioning why 200 hour pilots walk straight into jet jobs. I have tried to answer that question from my(yes MY) perspective. If you think im wrong in what i've said then im perfectly open to suggestions?? Having been job hunting for over a year and a half I have tried to base my answer on the trends that i have seen. Im certainly not advocating that anyone should go out and pay for integrated training just now as the market has changed. In fact, the job market is on its backside just now. If anything, i would suggest the likes of FI's with experience are probably better placed than the average 200 hour guy, given the current situation.


eikido,

Would love to do an FI rating but dont have the money just now to spend on it. Just bought a new house and getting married next year so money isnt exactly growing on the apple tree in the back garden. Future Mrs Mikecr might also have saomething to say on me spending 7 or 8k on FI!! Oh how times have changed....to be 18 years old, free and single again!!!

[CABUS]

I was a low hour mod pilot who was fortunate enough to secure a jet, after substancial pilot safety work but my job is far from secure and I am looking at FI courses incase the P45 arrives. I just think we all have to realise that flying is flying and when the upturn comes we will all be poised to jump and secure a career in which ever line of work we choose. No rubbish about mod or intergrated, when the upturn arrives it just wont matter, its the recency and hrs and most of all personality and luck that count.

Congrats Mikecr with the whole marrage thing, best of luck

[CRASH TEST]

Eikido:

I couldnīt agree with you more!

We have to start thinking that aviation is just a job, a very fascinating and exciting one, but a job after all! Like any other proffesion you have to start from zero and after a lot of work,dedication and a little bit of luck you end up with your desired position and salary. No short cuts!

Good luck to all of you guys!

[portsharbourflyer]

A 200 hour pilot fresh of the IR is better prepared for a type rating than an instructor who has largely been teaching VFR flying for a year or so. Didn't feel my VFR instructional experience was really all that much help when it came to completing a type rating on the larger stuff.

A good IR brush up in a sim is going to prepare you better for a type rating than a few hundred hours of circuit bashing. Instructing purely bulks the hours for meeting insurance requirements and as you mention Mikecr there are some operators where hours flown per year are low, therefore the 1000 hours is needed to shorten the time to achieving an ATPL and therefore a command. Instructing was good fun and it is certainly better to be flying than not flying but flying a light aircraft and operating a heavy type are very different types of flying.

Mikecr, sounds as though you are doing all the right things, but if Mrs MCR to be wouldn't be happy about you spending 7000 on an FI rating would she be any happier about the potential paycut you may have to take if you do get offered a job as turbo prop FO job. I may be wrong on my assumption but unless you live in Scotland of the far north the sort of income you need to secure the mortgage on house is certainly alot more than the salary of most TP FO jobs .

Good luck anyway.

[VNA Lotus]

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