Angry Post
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Angrywife as I am an airline pilot, and also moderator of this website, you'll probably dismiss everything I have to say. I'll take that risk!
This industry is much the same as any other in that it requires those who wish to work in it to get themselves qualified to do so before they apply for a job. They aren't fully-qualified, but most of the way there. Those qualifications are taken on a speculative basis - the wannabe takes the risk that there may not be a job for them at the end of their training. If you look at law, medicine and a number of other attractive professions, mature entrants in all of them pay a great deal of money to achieve their qualifications - in some rare circumstances, more than wannabe pilots.
However, flying is different in that the numbers who want to do the job are far more than there are jobs to go to, This has always been the case and, even now when commercial aviation is expanding faster than ever, remains the case now. This is no industrial secret; the information was out there before your husband started training. He took the risk, and he must accept the consequences of that risk. If he failed to adequately understand the risk, or to communicate it to you, that is not the fault of the industry. It is not airlines' role to pick up all those people who want to pilot airliners, pat them on the head and tell them 'Don't worry, we'll have a job for you,' before they start.
The process of obtaining a job in this industry is potentially very frustrating and difficult. The 'shelf-life' of a pilot's qualifications is short. Of the many hundreds who start off down this road every year, several - maybe 30% - will not make it to their desired airline job. If anyone is at fault for suggesting otherwise, it is the training industry, not the airlines. It is the training industry, not the airlines, that profits out of people buying training for which there may be no market. It is the training industry, not the airlines, that has a vested interest in getting as many people through the door as possible. They (well, most of them) don't really care whether a student gets employed or not; once they have his money, it's get the next one into the sausage machine. The airlines have nothing to do with that.
You have my sympathy for your predicament, but a read through this forum will demonstrate that you are far from on your own. There are many, many here who have let hope and desire cloud their judgement.
Perhaps there should be an Aviation Anonymous for all those whose uncontrolled desire to fly has ruined their lives...
Scroggs
This industry is much the same as any other in that it requires those who wish to work in it to get themselves qualified to do so before they apply for a job. They aren't fully-qualified, but most of the way there. Those qualifications are taken on a speculative basis - the wannabe takes the risk that there may not be a job for them at the end of their training. If you look at law, medicine and a number of other attractive professions, mature entrants in all of them pay a great deal of money to achieve their qualifications - in some rare circumstances, more than wannabe pilots.
However, flying is different in that the numbers who want to do the job are far more than there are jobs to go to, This has always been the case and, even now when commercial aviation is expanding faster than ever, remains the case now. This is no industrial secret; the information was out there before your husband started training. He took the risk, and he must accept the consequences of that risk. If he failed to adequately understand the risk, or to communicate it to you, that is not the fault of the industry. It is not airlines' role to pick up all those people who want to pilot airliners, pat them on the head and tell them 'Don't worry, we'll have a job for you,' before they start.
The process of obtaining a job in this industry is potentially very frustrating and difficult. The 'shelf-life' of a pilot's qualifications is short. Of the many hundreds who start off down this road every year, several - maybe 30% - will not make it to their desired airline job. If anyone is at fault for suggesting otherwise, it is the training industry, not the airlines. It is the training industry, not the airlines, that profits out of people buying training for which there may be no market. It is the training industry, not the airlines, that has a vested interest in getting as many people through the door as possible. They (well, most of them) don't really care whether a student gets employed or not; once they have his money, it's get the next one into the sausage machine. The airlines have nothing to do with that.
You have my sympathy for your predicament, but a read through this forum will demonstrate that you are far from on your own. There are many, many here who have let hope and desire cloud their judgement.
Perhaps there should be an Aviation Anonymous for all those whose uncontrolled desire to fly has ruined their lives...
Scroggs
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Scroggs
AA for wanabee pilots? Whilst I agree flying an aeroplane can be addictive and certainly very expensive I do not think the act of learning the required techniques can be accused of ruining people's lives. GAPAN would surely have something to say here about transferable life skills, communication abilities, spatial awareness, etc.
Unless ......ah ! you may be refering to that other thread about global warming and the evils of aero emissions.......!
AA for wanabee pilots? Whilst I agree flying an aeroplane can be addictive and certainly very expensive I do not think the act of learning the required techniques can be accused of ruining people's lives. GAPAN would surely have something to say here about transferable life skills, communication abilities, spatial awareness, etc.
Unless ......ah ! you may be refering to that other thread about global warming and the evils of aero emissions.......!
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Your partner is only experiencing what the majority of people encounter when pursuing their first position with an airline. Even in these healthy times of pilot recruitment the market is still very competitive. An article in this months Flyer magazine said that Flybe received over 1300 applications last year for about 70 jobs(if memory serves correct)! There are only a few who are lucky enough to go straight from their MCC and into their first airline flying job. With these sorts of odds I hope your partner did some serious research before parting with £65 000.
If your partner is not a member of BALPA I would recommend him to join as they have some useful information for low hours pilots on how to build hours for the airlines and also information from the airlines on what they want from applicants.
Good luck to both you and your partner and hopefully he'll get a break soon.
If your partner is not a member of BALPA I would recommend him to join as they have some useful information for low hours pilots on how to build hours for the airlines and also information from the airlines on what they want from applicants.
Good luck to both you and your partner and hopefully he'll get a break soon.
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Angrywife: I am sorry to sound a bit harsh here, but the fact that your partner pays a lot of money and does a lot of training, gives him no rights at all for a job.
I got my own commercial licenses in january 2002 (just after the terror attacks on world trade), and used the following 3 years to brand myself and get a descent job. That was with flying moonlight taxiflying (glad I am anonymous here
) , flying skydivers and showing friends and families how the world looked from above in a little 4 seater that i leased. All of it to accumulate hours to get the first job on a turboprop.
After that some years with low salaries where I had to have a fulltime job on the ground to be able to afford flying for the low-paying GA companies.
All very hard work, but it landed the job I wanted, and I am to start in a months time = 5 years + after i obtained my licenses.
I am just glad that the airlines have stopped taking in people with 250 hrs on the big jets, as I don't like to sit as a passenger with inexperienced crew up front. And sorry to say, but you only learn basic flying skills on a flightschool. The real skills have to be learned in the "traffic", just like with a drivers license.
Unfortunately that also means that you can not go directly from school and into a jet so many places anymore, but as mentioned here by others, then that information have been available to your husband before he started the course.
I feel sorry for the financial situation it has put you in, but there is only two things to say to that:
1. That is the same for most other people who starts in this industry, but information about this topic is far mor accesible for newstarters now, via the internet, then for those starting say 10 years ago. It is about doing the research and then sit with the calculator and see if you can afford what it costs to be a pilot. (AND i agree, it IS way to expencive allready).
2. Don't be picky with the jobs. Start from scratch and do the hard work to gather some flying hours and get some experience. It takes time and the road is long, but if you keep working hard the results will show.
Happiness requires hard work
I got my own commercial licenses in january 2002 (just after the terror attacks on world trade), and used the following 3 years to brand myself and get a descent job. That was with flying moonlight taxiflying (glad I am anonymous here
) , flying skydivers and showing friends and families how the world looked from above in a little 4 seater that i leased. All of it to accumulate hours to get the first job on a turboprop.After that some years with low salaries where I had to have a fulltime job on the ground to be able to afford flying for the low-paying GA companies.
All very hard work, but it landed the job I wanted, and I am to start in a months time = 5 years + after i obtained my licenses.
I am just glad that the airlines have stopped taking in people with 250 hrs on the big jets, as I don't like to sit as a passenger with inexperienced crew up front. And sorry to say, but you only learn basic flying skills on a flightschool. The real skills have to be learned in the "traffic", just like with a drivers license.
Unfortunately that also means that you can not go directly from school and into a jet so many places anymore, but as mentioned here by others, then that information have been available to your husband before he started the course.
I feel sorry for the financial situation it has put you in, but there is only two things to say to that:
1. That is the same for most other people who starts in this industry, but information about this topic is far mor accesible for newstarters now, via the internet, then for those starting say 10 years ago. It is about doing the research and then sit with the calculator and see if you can afford what it costs to be a pilot. (AND i agree, it IS way to expencive allready).
2. Don't be picky with the jobs. Start from scratch and do the hard work to gather some flying hours and get some experience. It takes time and the road is long, but if you keep working hard the results will show.
Happiness requires hard work
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I'm sure most people on here sympathise with your situation, mostly because many have been there. The reason though that Easyjet et al employ 250 hr pilots is that those pilots have been through an organisation that trains them accoring to what EJ wants. Not to say it's better or worse, but essentially those pilots had a job with an airline before they flew a single hour!
How old is your husband? Can he possibly lower his sights a little and get a freighter job? A parachute job? An instructor job? Maybe he sould get in the car and go and visit some people. Aviation is about who you know, much, much more than what you know, and sausage rolls and Stella Artois are worth 100 times more than an anonomous CV recieved via e-mail.
How old is your husband? Can he possibly lower his sights a little and get a freighter job? A parachute job? An instructor job? Maybe he sould get in the car and go and visit some people. Aviation is about who you know, much, much more than what you know, and sausage rolls and Stella Artois are worth 100 times more than an anonomous CV recieved via e-mail.
Before PPRuNe existed and the Wannabes forums in particular I would have every sympathy. The fact that here exists, that every grisly feature of the bleak bleak path is documented many times, that the massive gamble your husband took; all lessen my sympathy.
I am not unsympathetic. I've been there and got the rejection letters.
BUT.
Unsolicted CVs and unsolicted doorstepping of airlines is slightly lower than junk mail and squigy merchants. Silence or a Sod Off is perfectly reasonable from them.
Quite probably your husband will join the ranks of the 60% of people who complete the ATPL exams but never get a commercial type rating. I hope not as otherwise its time, money and effort down the drain. But it is probable.
This far in its often rational to pay for a type rating as its much cheaper than simply writing off the investment so far. Best he does this before someone stops Iran getting a bomb or the UK housing market collapse happens or the next Sept11th happens.
Life is full of risks. Becoming a commerical pilots is fuller than most - of both life and risks. Its why so many try AND why so many fail.
Good luck.
WWW
ps As an aside. Folks. Something often overlooked is the effect your ambition will have on those you love. It can be massively negative. Factor that in.
I am not unsympathetic. I've been there and got the rejection letters.
BUT.
Unsolicted CVs and unsolicted doorstepping of airlines is slightly lower than junk mail and squigy merchants. Silence or a Sod Off is perfectly reasonable from them.
Quite probably your husband will join the ranks of the 60% of people who complete the ATPL exams but never get a commercial type rating. I hope not as otherwise its time, money and effort down the drain. But it is probable.
This far in its often rational to pay for a type rating as its much cheaper than simply writing off the investment so far. Best he does this before someone stops Iran getting a bomb or the UK housing market collapse happens or the next Sept11th happens.
Life is full of risks. Becoming a commerical pilots is fuller than most - of both life and risks. Its why so many try AND why so many fail.
Good luck.
WWW
ps As an aside. Folks. Something often overlooked is the effect your ambition will have on those you love. It can be massively negative. Factor that in.
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Sorry but my partner is 34 years old and is a lot more mature than some of these younger pilots who get in because their father or family members work for the airline. Honestly!
Your partner is 34, and has completed his training back in july last year..
So to me, he or you has absolutely no right to complain. Everybody knows(if they have made just the smallest amount of research) that when you pass the age of 30, it is going to become harder and harder to land that first job..
Almost every new pilot I know, has been unemployed for atleast a year, but more commen between 1 1/2 and 2 years before they got there first job..
Back the age issue. You do more or less say that your husband is more entitled to a job, because he is more "mature", than other qualified candidates.
I can inform you that I am 23 and is flying big commercial jets, which I have done for about 4 months now. I have gone through extensive screening along with both older and far more experience guys than myself, but they decided to offer me the job, because of my personality. I then got extra training than they would normally give there pilots, in order to make sure that I got to the required standard, before I was released to fly on the line. And I didn't know anybody within the airline or any other airline for that matter!!
I had to wait for 1 1/2 years before I finally got a chance to proof myself to an airline, and just as everybody else, I was sending more CV's out than I can count to.
In the mean time I had to work with something else. I worked in airports in order to try to get to know people, and I was actually offered two jobs on small propeller aircrafts, just before I got the job which I have now..
am just glad that the airlines have stopped taking in people with 250 hrs on the big jets, as I don't like to sit as a passenger with inexperienced crew up front. And sorry to say, but you only learn basic flying skills on a flightschool. The real skills have to be learned in the "traffic", just like with a drivers license.
I have personally already tried things that most pilots never experience, and in both cases I recieved great feedback from the captain, because he was very pleased with my way handling the situation and with my help.
None of us know how we react in a real emergency, but I know already. Fortunately enough, both cases turned out to be false alarm!
So please don't say all the crap about you don't wan't to fly with inexperienced pilots, because we will all have to start somewhere...
And why do you feel that it's okay to have inexperience pilots on turbo-props, they are just as likely to be involved in an emergency, where you have to count on the "young" F/O...
That was just my view..
Angrywife, I wish your husband all the best of luck!
/BAP
Last edited by BAP; 17th Feb 2007 at 19:34.
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At least your husband has one thing that i, or possibly quite a few as us on here, has not got and thats a wife/missus who shows an interest in achieving his ambition. My missus still thinks i'm living in a dream and its never going to happen and she knows naff all about the aviation industry. Perhaps she will when she gets wind of the re-mortgage but thats beside the point
. My point is if he knows the industry and your there to help him and support him his time will come and it'll all be worth it. Read of some sucess stories on here and you'll see its possible.
Good luck
. My point is if he knows the industry and your there to help him and support him his time will come and it'll all be worth it. Read of some sucess stories on here and you'll see its possible.Good luck
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I can understand why someone who is not familiar with aviation and airlines is shocked and angry about her spouse spending a small fortune and not finding a job. I know it's a bit late now but if you had researched in detail prior to training you would have found many other people are in that situation.
Instructing is a fairly good option if you can find another 5-6K for several reasons - You will gain valuable experience and keep current - you will earn some money - you stand a good chance of meeting people who can help you to advance your career and you will probably enjoy it!
Paying for type ratings is a big gamble that has worked for some and not for others but including expenses a jet rating will cost you between 20 -24k
Another thing you need to take into account is that if you do find an airline job are you prepared to relocate which is more expense. Two out of the three flying jobs i have had have been based over two hundred miles from home and several friends who have just gained their first jobs are Scotland based.
Good luck!
Instructing is a fairly good option if you can find another 5-6K for several reasons - You will gain valuable experience and keep current - you will earn some money - you stand a good chance of meeting people who can help you to advance your career and you will probably enjoy it!
Paying for type ratings is a big gamble that has worked for some and not for others but including expenses a jet rating will cost you between 20 -24k
Another thing you need to take into account is that if you do find an airline job are you prepared to relocate which is more expense. Two out of the three flying jobs i have had have been based over two hundred miles from home and several friends who have just gained their first jobs are Scotland based.
Good luck!
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i know its not easy i have all this to look forward too and im female trying to get into a mans world so it will be tough for sure....men always say women have equile rights in this game but it bull,just hang in there both of you somethimg will come up i do know easyjet are taking on loads of pilots this year give them a go and if he knows anyone already working for them they have a recommend a fellow pilot thing going on! wish i could give you a hug and say everything will be ok,it will be worth it when he gets a f.o job honest
take care x
take care x
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IR Renewal
class a Errm stop making it up you can't renew every year in the sim anymore.
suger Whoever told you that this aviation malarky is unbiased and equal was lying to you. Everybody knows that being a girl you have much more chance than most of getting an interview and a job as the balance is need of redress. I wouldn't worry too much about being mistreated if I were you
Angrywife I feel for you and my wife has shared your frsutration but like numerous have said on this thread alone you really haven't looked at the reality of this industry very much if you think that you're situation is anything other than excellent.
Your husband is current and still keen, he may even have to work out of avaition for a few years and still keep current before he gets a reply much less an interview. People above have mentioned waiting for 1-2 yrs before getting a sniff if I am honest I would say that they are being optimistic. There are many many pilots who I met on my type rating who had waited over 3-5 years to get even one interview with an airline.
The suggestions above are very good if you want to support him get of this site except for reasearch and get packing to go round the world with your hubby to anywhere where they will let him fly paid or not. Go to Africa, Asia or even Liverpool and when there are no jobs anywhere then complain.
If this seems too extreme then you have to question if you and him want it enough. If you do then there is no price that you will not pay to get it.
Best of luck for you both. I'm sorry to not seem supportive but being realistic and never giving up is what will make this work. That said a good rant every now and then does help most.
VT
suger Whoever told you that this aviation malarky is unbiased and equal was lying to you. Everybody knows that being a girl you have much more chance than most of getting an interview and a job as the balance is need of redress. I wouldn't worry too much about being mistreated if I were you
Angrywife I feel for you and my wife has shared your frsutration but like numerous have said on this thread alone you really haven't looked at the reality of this industry very much if you think that you're situation is anything other than excellent.
Your husband is current and still keen, he may even have to work out of avaition for a few years and still keep current before he gets a reply much less an interview. People above have mentioned waiting for 1-2 yrs before getting a sniff if I am honest I would say that they are being optimistic. There are many many pilots who I met on my type rating who had waited over 3-5 years to get even one interview with an airline.
The suggestions above are very good if you want to support him get of this site except for reasearch and get packing to go round the world with your hubby to anywhere where they will let him fly paid or not. Go to Africa, Asia or even Liverpool and when there are no jobs anywhere then complain.
If this seems too extreme then you have to question if you and him want it enough. If you do then there is no price that you will not pay to get it.
Best of luck for you both. I'm sorry to not seem supportive but being realistic and never giving up is what will make this work. That said a good rant every now and then does help most.
VT
Last edited by Vortex Thing; 17th Feb 2007 at 23:16. Reason: typo
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"wish i could give you a hug and say everything will be ok,it will be worth it when he gets a f.o job honest
take care x "
Well done suger thats what this place needs more love. Lets all get on and spread the love seeing as its a beautiful sunday.
Peace , light and love from bluepeely
take care x
"Well done suger thats what this place needs more love. Lets all get on and spread the love seeing as its a beautiful sunday.
Peace , light and love from bluepeely
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Angrywife... if you both went into this thing without your eyes WIDE open then your either
a) an idiot
or
b) extremely naive
Don't expect much sympathy coming on here whinnying on about "oh the troubles I've had..."
If your husband failed to do enough research into what the situation would be upon graduation etc then I suggest you dig out your favourite frying pan & **** him round the head!
a) an idiot
or
b) extremely naive
Don't expect much sympathy coming on here whinnying on about "oh the troubles I've had..."
If your husband failed to do enough research into what the situation would be upon graduation etc then I suggest you dig out your favourite frying pan & **** him round the head!
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paying for 'block' hours and flying??????????
surely this can't be right?
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/fact...3ytp5ufyn48ggp
I am amazed if this actually happens and pilots are prepared to do this, even after the substantial expense of ATPL training.
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/fact...3ytp5ufyn48ggp
I am amazed if this actually happens and pilots are prepared to do this, even after the substantial expense of ATPL training.
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Originally Posted by Wodka
Angrywife... if you both went into this thing without your eyes WIDE open then your either
a) an idiot
or
b) extremely naive
Don't expect much sympathy coming on here whinnying on about "oh the troubles I've had..."
If your husband failed to do enough research into what the situation would be upon graduation etc then I suggest you dig out your favourite frying pan & **** him round the head!
a) an idiot
or
b) extremely naive
Don't expect much sympathy coming on here whinnying on about "oh the troubles I've had..."
If your husband failed to do enough research into what the situation would be upon graduation etc then I suggest you dig out your favourite frying pan & **** him round the head!
"f#$k it then,ill become a plumber/doctor etc",
i personally knew what the deal is and obviously had to wait nearly a year b4 i got my break and nothing would have stopped me from reaching my goal,
so lets stop replying to this post with an "i told you so" attitude and give some support and empathy,after all as some of us said we have all been there,done that and got the t-shirt.
Last edited by geraldn; 18th Feb 2007 at 20:01.
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Same Story
I graduated in October. I have applied to literally hundreds and hundreds of companies around the world in the last few months and have not even received so much as a hint for an interview. I am now considering remortgaging my house to do an A320 type rating with line training.
However even before starting my ATPL training i knew how difficult it would be to get a job but i am also certain one day i will get a job.
Just stay positive and something will work out.
However even before starting my ATPL training i knew how difficult it would be to get a job but i am also certain one day i will get a job.
Just stay positive and something will work out.
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It is his first renewal so it can be done in the Sim every other one has to be done in the aircraft and anyway even in the Aircraft it does not cost anywere near £5000 I just renewed after a long break from flying and the whole thing including the multi engine renewal and it cost me under £1500