Angry Post
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stay positive!
Angrywife, stay positive! Your husband will need your continued support throughout his search for a position.
Click on the link below to see, what he will be doing in the future. Hope it cheers both of you up and other qualified pilots out there, in the same perdicament.
spitfire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QMDDgrRH2w
Click on the link below to see, what he will be doing in the future. Hope it cheers both of you up and other qualified pilots out there, in the same perdicament.
spitfire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QMDDgrRH2w
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Angrywife. We were there too.
It is a risk, and an expensive one at that with no guarantee. But stay positive. As previously suggested, even had you both known in advance how difficult it would be, you may have gone ahead anyway.
For what it's worth, here my path to where I am now.
I started flying (PPL) at 27, ran out of money for a while. Stayed in my old job, got seriously fed up, and finished PPL off much later, with licence issue for CPL/IR in mid 2000, and first job in Late 2003.
How my wife coped is beyond me(in fact we weren't married at the time). Dark times, but also good times. We both worked towards the future, struggling together.(sounds corny, but hey)
75% of the guys on the IR courses with me were in the same boat. As far as I know, all have good jobs now. Some have commands on Jets. Others like myself are getting close to it. Many have been through some lesser jobs first.
Set aside the less helpful posts on here. Look at the many others that demonstrate that this is not an unusual situation.
The first hurdle has been achieved. Licence issued and qualified.
Next hurdle is staying proficient. I used to rent a twin once a month and fly the local procedures. But it's not the only way. I wouldn't even suggest that keeping the IR continuously current is the way to go. Renewing rather than revalidating, may be a wise choice. Simulator is a good way to do this.
What is important now is stay positive, and try not to let the lack of an aviation job define your lives. Get on with your lives. Seriously consider ANY opportunities that are presented.
It is a risk, and an expensive one at that with no guarantee. But stay positive. As previously suggested, even had you both known in advance how difficult it would be, you may have gone ahead anyway.
For what it's worth, here my path to where I am now.
I started flying (PPL) at 27, ran out of money for a while. Stayed in my old job, got seriously fed up, and finished PPL off much later, with licence issue for CPL/IR in mid 2000, and first job in Late 2003.
How my wife coped is beyond me(in fact we weren't married at the time). Dark times, but also good times. We both worked towards the future, struggling together.(sounds corny, but hey)
75% of the guys on the IR courses with me were in the same boat. As far as I know, all have good jobs now. Some have commands on Jets. Others like myself are getting close to it. Many have been through some lesser jobs first.
Set aside the less helpful posts on here. Look at the many others that demonstrate that this is not an unusual situation.
The first hurdle has been achieved. Licence issued and qualified.
Next hurdle is staying proficient. I used to rent a twin once a month and fly the local procedures. But it's not the only way. I wouldn't even suggest that keeping the IR continuously current is the way to go. Renewing rather than revalidating, may be a wise choice. Simulator is a good way to do this.
What is important now is stay positive, and try not to let the lack of an aviation job define your lives. Get on with your lives. Seriously consider ANY opportunities that are presented.
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What is important now is stay positive, and try not to let the lack of an aviation job define your lives.
It's a luxury to fly airplanes and be able to live a stable life where you come home at the end of a working day. I think this is something that gets lost on many aspiring pilots who only see the good aspects of flying. Basically flying is a lifestyle, and it will dictate many aspects of your life.
This is the most crucial thing to consider in my mind, for family members definitely. Getting hired is just scratching the surface, ask yourself are you prepared to move to another country for your husbands career? 5 years from now if he gets a base change or gets laid off, are you prepared to move to yet another country to survive? If you have kids settled in school and you stay, are you prepared to have him commuting and seeing him 12 days out of the month? What if he does long-haul and almost never comes home?
I could easily name a number of captains who are working on divorce number 2 or 3 and it's no fun. Not trying to put you or him off, but these scenarios are not extreme in any way I don't think.
Another thing you can do is sign up at this forum, it's basically the wife of a US pilot who started a forum for the families (wives mostly of course) and they can surely give you their opinion of what it's like to live with a pilot.
http://www.pilotfamilies.com/joomla/index.php
I'm sorry but I don't remember anyone telling me I'd get a job. I don't remember anyone telling me it would be cheap either. And, as far as I can see, not one of the airlines asked him to start training. And completing a CPL/IR does not make someone fully qualified - airlines don't fly light twins.
Before you jump in, I'm older than your husband and married with a young family. I paid for all my training myself whilst working full-time. I also had to leave my former employer before looking for airline work. In my current company there are approx 100 "qualified" applicants for every successful one. And by "qualified" I mean pilots experienced on a current airline-type.
RyanAir can afford to take on 250 hr pilots because their T & C s are rubbish. That company is undermining the industry and giving passengers an unrealistic expectation of the true cost of air travel.
There is another potential issue here. With self-funded training, you have no guarantee that a company will see you as a suitable co-pilot. Flying for a reputable company is more than simply turning up with a licence. Most airlines recrut F/Os with a view to them becoming captains and not everyone has this potential. Perhaps the fault lies with the training schools. I saw people scraping through the course but passing; however, they were never going to get a job in a million years.
Of course, you don't want to hear any of this. You want to blame someone becuase your husband doesn't have a job. Well, it's a precarious job at the best of times - just ask those people who were looking for jobs post-Gulf War I or 9/11.
Before you jump in, I'm older than your husband and married with a young family. I paid for all my training myself whilst working full-time. I also had to leave my former employer before looking for airline work. In my current company there are approx 100 "qualified" applicants for every successful one. And by "qualified" I mean pilots experienced on a current airline-type.
RyanAir can afford to take on 250 hr pilots because their T & C s are rubbish. That company is undermining the industry and giving passengers an unrealistic expectation of the true cost of air travel.
There is another potential issue here. With self-funded training, you have no guarantee that a company will see you as a suitable co-pilot. Flying for a reputable company is more than simply turning up with a licence. Most airlines recrut F/Os with a view to them becoming captains and not everyone has this potential. Perhaps the fault lies with the training schools. I saw people scraping through the course but passing; however, they were never going to get a job in a million years.
Of course, you don't want to hear any of this. You want to blame someone becuase your husband doesn't have a job. Well, it's a precarious job at the best of times - just ask those people who were looking for jobs post-Gulf War I or 9/11.
Last edited by Megaton; 19th Feb 2007 at 10:14.
You lot aren't very nice are you. The poor lady wanted to vent her spleen and release some of the pent up frustration that she feels, we all do it from time to time.
I have every sympathy with anyone who is in this situation, it took me over a year to get my first job.
My advice is to hang in there, and do what you can to stand out from the crowd. At the moment your partner has the bear minimum for a job, hundreds of others are the in the same boat. Anything he can do to stand out is helpful.
As for airlines replying, the fleet manager in the airline I work for has over 150 CV's on his desk and receives new ones at the rate of nearly 10 a day. So replying is not really an option.
If he needs help with CV construction, networking, and interviews then get in touch with Pilot Pete, he is a frequent visitor around these parts, and can help a great deal in getting noticed.
Good luck in the search and stay positive, and remember that 75% of the people who set out to be pilots never make it this far! And its worth it in the end!
I have every sympathy with anyone who is in this situation, it took me over a year to get my first job.
My advice is to hang in there, and do what you can to stand out from the crowd. At the moment your partner has the bear minimum for a job, hundreds of others are the in the same boat. Anything he can do to stand out is helpful.
As for airlines replying, the fleet manager in the airline I work for has over 150 CV's on his desk and receives new ones at the rate of nearly 10 a day. So replying is not really an option.
If he needs help with CV construction, networking, and interviews then get in touch with Pilot Pete, he is a frequent visitor around these parts, and can help a great deal in getting noticed.
Good luck in the search and stay positive, and remember that 75% of the people who set out to be pilots never make it this far! And its worth it in the end!
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Both Flyboy and Ham Phisted make some valid points about recruitment. It is a well publicised fact that every low hour pilot will not walk into an airline job when they have completed initial training, however it is not JUST because there isn't a job there. It is rightly said that people try to get into this profession for all the wrong reasons. Flying a shiney jet around the world, staying in 5 star hotels, being paid massive amounts of money and living a glamorous lifestyle is just some of the disillusions that I have witnessed people having. This, as the majority of people here will know, is not the airline industry of today; yet you would be suprised how many people still believe it to be this way! People read about "Mass Global Pilot Shortages" and dive head first into training; believing that BA, Virgin and others will be headhunting them through their training. I say this with a little 'tounge in cheek,' however in some of the FTO open days that I attended before deciding on where I should train, I found a lot of people in the same position as myself believing this.
The other side of the story is that some people are and never will be suited to the job. They may be one of the most fantastically talented pilots that there is, however their attitude, personality or concept of what it takes to fly an airliner couldn't be anything further than what is required. FlyBe's TP Chief Captain recently stated that a recent low-time interviewee suggested that pilots had no role to play when it came to keeping the passengers informed throughout a flight, as it was the pilot's job to fly the plane and nothing else! Understandibly the interview came to an abrupt end right there. It would undoubtably be the same case for those who maintained a 'know it all attitude' or those who had a personality that would never be deemed appropriate for the flightdeck. These people are out there, I have met some of them, and it comes with no suprise to me that they haven't had recommendations, interviews or jobs. It's also not suprising to note that these are the people wearing the massive chip on their shoulder about the industry, as if it owes them something because they are qualified! I actually find it quite sad to see that they fail to realise that this is more down to themselves than the industry.
I'm sure that this is not the case with your husband, Angrywife - well I hope not anyway! He may be experiencing a bit of bad luck at the moment, however with the right attitude and drive HE WILL GET THERE.
The other side of the story is that some people are and never will be suited to the job. They may be one of the most fantastically talented pilots that there is, however their attitude, personality or concept of what it takes to fly an airliner couldn't be anything further than what is required. FlyBe's TP Chief Captain recently stated that a recent low-time interviewee suggested that pilots had no role to play when it came to keeping the passengers informed throughout a flight, as it was the pilot's job to fly the plane and nothing else! Understandibly the interview came to an abrupt end right there. It would undoubtably be the same case for those who maintained a 'know it all attitude' or those who had a personality that would never be deemed appropriate for the flightdeck. These people are out there, I have met some of them, and it comes with no suprise to me that they haven't had recommendations, interviews or jobs. It's also not suprising to note that these are the people wearing the massive chip on their shoulder about the industry, as if it owes them something because they are qualified! I actually find it quite sad to see that they fail to realise that this is more down to themselves than the industry.
I'm sure that this is not the case with your husband, Angrywife - well I hope not anyway! He may be experiencing a bit of bad luck at the moment, however with the right attitude and drive HE WILL GET THERE.
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For some reason when a doctor or a lawyer graduates he/ she is not driven to the point of despair and does not have to beg for a first job wherever it is.
Flying is not unique in this respect - there is a market, and it involves a large dergee of luck, skill and stamina to win.
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Angrywife,
I am 34 years old, with a wife and a young son and all the attached financial committments. I started my flying training in October 2004 and completed everything by the middle of November 2005. This I thought would stand me in good stead to get into a right hand seat of something fairly quickly!
However, as many people on this forum will tell you and already have done, there is no certainty in this line of business. Good luck, Big pockets and maybe good looks can have a big influence on how long it takes to get that elusive first job, but at the end of the day, drive and determination are paramount with the addition of self belief.
From my initial job applications going out in January 2006, to the first hint of anything reasonable, took about a year. Now, I am 2 weeks away from starting my type rating on a B737 with a very reputable scheduled airline and the world is looking very rosey again.
There are positions out there, and being in the right place at the right time is vital, but your husband will need to fight hard to get himself in that position in the first place.
The effort can definately pay off.
Best of luck
RL
I am 34 years old, with a wife and a young son and all the attached financial committments. I started my flying training in October 2004 and completed everything by the middle of November 2005. This I thought would stand me in good stead to get into a right hand seat of something fairly quickly!
However, as many people on this forum will tell you and already have done, there is no certainty in this line of business. Good luck, Big pockets and maybe good looks can have a big influence on how long it takes to get that elusive first job, but at the end of the day, drive and determination are paramount with the addition of self belief.
From my initial job applications going out in January 2006, to the first hint of anything reasonable, took about a year. Now, I am 2 weeks away from starting my type rating on a B737 with a very reputable scheduled airline and the world is looking very rosey again.
There are positions out there, and being in the right place at the right time is vital, but your husband will need to fight hard to get himself in that position in the first place.
The effort can definately pay off.
Best of luck
RL
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Future Captain
He has had a few sniffs and some very good ones but people say they will call him and then they don't. This is why it's so frustrating!
Thank you to everyone who has been sympathetic on here it's also nice to have some positive feedback.
Thank you to everyone who has been sympathetic on here it's also nice to have some positive feedback.
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Feel free to add comments but I’m sure if the comments come from a person at an airline it will all be excuses and crap. Sorry but my partner is 34 years old and is a lot more mature than some of these younger pilots who get in because their father or family members work for the airline. Honestly!
Having said that, best of luck that life takes a turn for the better.
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but just because my father is a pilot doesnt mean im just going to walk in.
once you have the interview, the rest is up to you.
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Hi Angrywife
I'm in a pretty similar boat - but we sold the house to fund my husband's training.
I am not negative however. He is an instructor right now and is a very happy husband. He has been accepted and is doing the AQC thing with CTC.
Yes, we live in a rented house and I have to work full time to ensure all the bills are paid but we had a fantastic 20 months living in Florida, my daughter proudly tells all her friends that her daddy is a pilot, and the possibilities for the future are myriad.
It hasn't happened as fast as we had hoped, but things are moving forward. The best thing I can suggest is the instructor rating thing, he now has in excess of 1000 hours and that in itself has opened up the opportunity to apply for other airline jobs.
In reply to all those who have knocked you, I would say that they have absolutely no comprehension of how it feels to be a spectator to the ridiculous employment practices in this industry.
I am a professional, however my training costs were subsidised by the government at University and any further skills and additional qualifications required by my employers are funded by them. This is what is deemed normal in the rest of the professional world!
Hope he finds a job soon, but I really think instructing is a good option for him to look at.
I'm in a pretty similar boat - but we sold the house to fund my husband's training.
I am not negative however. He is an instructor right now and is a very happy husband. He has been accepted and is doing the AQC thing with CTC.
Yes, we live in a rented house and I have to work full time to ensure all the bills are paid but we had a fantastic 20 months living in Florida, my daughter proudly tells all her friends that her daddy is a pilot, and the possibilities for the future are myriad.
It hasn't happened as fast as we had hoped, but things are moving forward. The best thing I can suggest is the instructor rating thing, he now has in excess of 1000 hours and that in itself has opened up the opportunity to apply for other airline jobs.
In reply to all those who have knocked you, I would say that they have absolutely no comprehension of how it feels to be a spectator to the ridiculous employment practices in this industry.
I am a professional, however my training costs were subsidised by the government at University and any further skills and additional qualifications required by my employers are funded by them. This is what is deemed normal in the rest of the professional world!
Hope he finds a job soon, but I really think instructing is a good option for him to look at.
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Hi Angrywife,
I'm in the same position as your Husband. I'm a little older and now getting divorced !!
My "partner" up'd sticks and left for a normal life, whatever that is!
I would ignore all the negative comments and thank the Lord that you are still together.
I'm about start an Instructor rating and have a job to go to when I'm finished. I would advise the other half to think about doing the same but only after a few more months of really pushing himself. I've also found another non-aviation job to supplement the Instructor pay (I'll be working from home), so may be He could do the same (if money is really tight), there's tonnes of Jobs that are pretty flexible. If He does go down the Instructor route before paying out any more I would find the Instructor Job first. I've been told that it makes the training a lot less stressful knowing you've definately got a job.
Considering all my problems, I'm still positive about the future even though my personal life is a shambles
and I live like a peasent 
In a few years time you'll both sit back and laugh about the situation.
P.s GOODLUCK!
I'm in the same position as your Husband. I'm a little older and now getting divorced !!
My "partner" up'd sticks and left for a normal life, whatever that is!
I would ignore all the negative comments and thank the Lord that you are still together.
I'm about start an Instructor rating and have a job to go to when I'm finished. I would advise the other half to think about doing the same but only after a few more months of really pushing himself. I've also found another non-aviation job to supplement the Instructor pay (I'll be working from home), so may be He could do the same (if money is really tight), there's tonnes of Jobs that are pretty flexible. If He does go down the Instructor route before paying out any more I would find the Instructor Job first. I've been told that it makes the training a lot less stressful knowing you've definately got a job.
Considering all my problems, I'm still positive about the future even though my personal life is a shambles
and I live like a peasent In a few years time you'll both sit back and laugh about the situation.
P.s GOODLUCK!
Last edited by Orvil; 19th Feb 2007 at 16:40.
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Callsign Kilo
My jibe about McDonald's harps back to a few years ago when there were fewer jobs and the joke was "What do you say to a guy with an fATPL?" "Big Mac and fries please!!". I removed it myself as it is not relevent today and on hindsight was a bit mean.
Personally I sold my house and bought an apartment to fund my training. I still have the CPL and MCC to do, but do it in little chunks while still working in between.
I went into this with my eyes open and do not expect to walk into a job when I finally get all the bits of paper. In fact it actually scares me when I sign up for my next module and arrive at the flight school to see it inundated with potential f/o's. The number of guys self funding at the moment is mind blowing and has certainly taken me aback.
For me I see it like the national lottery "you gotta be in it to win it", if I don't have the bits of paper I won't get a job that is for sure, if I do have the bits of paper at least I'll have a chance. I don't believe anybody owes me a job, yes it would be nice to think that after spending all that money, and in my mind possessing very unique and specialised skills that you would be highly saught after, however it's market forces and I know there will be many, many others out there with the same skills as myself to compete against.
Really Angrywife, you should not be angry with the airlines, they are not charities (or rather they are as they will take money from whatever source they can get) they can not just hand out jobs willy nilly to fulfill someone's dream. They have to make a profit and keep the shareholders happy. If they did just hand out jobs they would exceed the salary budget, put the company in a financially precarious position and jeopordise the jobs of hundreds of people. I can sympathise with you're plight but business is business and can remember the early 90's when people in all industries were being made reduntant and home repossessions were soaring, and these were people in normal jobs who had not paid for any training. Business is a cut-throat game and is there to make money for the shareholders and not to make dreams come true no matter what industry you in.
Personally I sold my house and bought an apartment to fund my training. I still have the CPL and MCC to do, but do it in little chunks while still working in between.
I went into this with my eyes open and do not expect to walk into a job when I finally get all the bits of paper. In fact it actually scares me when I sign up for my next module and arrive at the flight school to see it inundated with potential f/o's. The number of guys self funding at the moment is mind blowing and has certainly taken me aback.
For me I see it like the national lottery "you gotta be in it to win it", if I don't have the bits of paper I won't get a job that is for sure, if I do have the bits of paper at least I'll have a chance. I don't believe anybody owes me a job, yes it would be nice to think that after spending all that money, and in my mind possessing very unique and specialised skills that you would be highly saught after, however it's market forces and I know there will be many, many others out there with the same skills as myself to compete against.
Really Angrywife, you should not be angry with the airlines, they are not charities (or rather they are as they will take money from whatever source they can get) they can not just hand out jobs willy nilly to fulfill someone's dream. They have to make a profit and keep the shareholders happy. If they did just hand out jobs they would exceed the salary budget, put the company in a financially precarious position and jeopordise the jobs of hundreds of people. I can sympathise with you're plight but business is business and can remember the early 90's when people in all industries were being made reduntant and home repossessions were soaring, and these were people in normal jobs who had not paid for any training. Business is a cut-throat game and is there to make money for the shareholders and not to make dreams come true no matter what industry you in.
Last edited by smith; 19th Feb 2007 at 21:17.
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"however it's market forces and I know there will be many, many others out there with the same skills as myself to compete against."
You better believe it.....there will be more "fresh pilots" banging on the door of airline companies than presents being opened on christmas day!
You better believe it.....there will be more "fresh pilots" banging on the door of airline companies than presents being opened on christmas day!
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Well done you.
Justine. You are the epitomy of an aviation wife. I hope that all of your partners are show her post as a tribute to what sacrifice really means.
I wish your husband the best of luck on his AQC and subsequent job. It is worth it and with the sort of support you are exhibiting he will find it many many times easier.
I raise a glass to you and all husbands and wifes out there who apply the same dedication to achieving thier aims.
I wish your husband the best of luck on his AQC and subsequent job. It is worth it and with the sort of support you are exhibiting he will find it many many times easier.
I raise a glass to you and all husbands and wifes out there who apply the same dedication to achieving thier aims.
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Angry Wife,
Your feelings are completely understandable, to throw tens of thousands of pounds into training and see no return on that investment is not desirable but it happens all too often in this industry. There is an earlier post by Gnirren which is very accurate and not often talked about, to do with the realities of this job. It does end up running your life, you may buy a house, settle the children at a school only to be told that your husbands base is to be changed and that may be several hundreds of miles away. He will have two choices at that point move or leave, this industry is very unforgiving in its treatment of staff and is becoming more so due to gross oversupply.There are some terrible companies to work for [ I`ve worked for some of them} Back in the 80`s when I started there were companies whose manner of operation would frighten the life out of many new pilots, I`ll go no futher on that theme because you really would not want to know. Training schools have long since kept very quiet about the `downsides` flying for a living and believe me when I say there are many. They trade on what is percieved as a dream job but there is no such thing and if there is then is certainly is not being a commercial pilot.Yes it can be exciting, satisfying and rewarding sometimes but then again so can many other jobs, what really makes it unique is the crushing amount of financial investment and insecurity of persons in your situation for something that in my opinion after 21 years does not equal the sum of its parts and is getting noticably worse. I wish him good luck and hope he finds what he is searching for.
Your feelings are completely understandable, to throw tens of thousands of pounds into training and see no return on that investment is not desirable but it happens all too often in this industry. There is an earlier post by Gnirren which is very accurate and not often talked about, to do with the realities of this job. It does end up running your life, you may buy a house, settle the children at a school only to be told that your husbands base is to be changed and that may be several hundreds of miles away. He will have two choices at that point move or leave, this industry is very unforgiving in its treatment of staff and is becoming more so due to gross oversupply.There are some terrible companies to work for [ I`ve worked for some of them} Back in the 80`s when I started there were companies whose manner of operation would frighten the life out of many new pilots, I`ll go no futher on that theme because you really would not want to know. Training schools have long since kept very quiet about the `downsides` flying for a living and believe me when I say there are many. They trade on what is percieved as a dream job but there is no such thing and if there is then is certainly is not being a commercial pilot.Yes it can be exciting, satisfying and rewarding sometimes but then again so can many other jobs, what really makes it unique is the crushing amount of financial investment and insecurity of persons in your situation for something that in my opinion after 21 years does not equal the sum of its parts and is getting noticably worse. I wish him good luck and hope he finds what he is searching for.