Angry Post
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It does end up running your life, you may buy a house, settle the children at a school only to be told that your husbands base is to be changed and that may be several hundreds of miles away.
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young pilots
some of these younger pilots who get in because their father or family members work for the airline. Honestly!
Im not in that boat yet but i can imagine how frustrating and stressful it can be and I hope he finds a job soon. However, i felt that your comment on younger pilots was a little unfair. Aviation, as we all know, demands the highest of standards from every indvidual regardless of whether your siblings/family are in the airline, however, if one doesnt cut the mustard, one doesnt get a job/qualification regardless of whether your father is in the airline.
This may sound totally crazy, but if you are both flexible enough and he wants it enough then look east, China avaition is booming and there is a shortage of pilots over there. obviously a bit of a lifesytle change...!
Nevertheless best of luck,
bjbb
Im not in that boat yet but i can imagine how frustrating and stressful it can be and I hope he finds a job soon. However, i felt that your comment on younger pilots was a little unfair. Aviation, as we all know, demands the highest of standards from every indvidual regardless of whether your siblings/family are in the airline, however, if one doesnt cut the mustard, one doesnt get a job/qualification regardless of whether your father is in the airline.
This may sound totally crazy, but if you are both flexible enough and he wants it enough then look east, China avaition is booming and there is a shortage of pilots over there. obviously a bit of a lifesytle change...!
Nevertheless best of luck,
bjbb
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The problem he has is the same as the rest, he is a low houred pilot.
Get an instructors rating, build up to 1500 hours, then apply for jobs.
Or gamble and buy a TR, I would never do this though unless there is a GUARANTEED job at the end of it. But many people are lucky going down this route.
Get an instructors rating, build up to 1500 hours, then apply for jobs.
Or gamble and buy a TR, I would never do this though unless there is a GUARANTEED job at the end of it. But many people are lucky going down this route.
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To be honest, if your partner only qualified last summer he's not doing that bad.
I qualified in 2003 and have just started a job with an airline. It's a long, hard battle and very demoralising, but you have to keep on going.
I know a number of people who have waited 2-3 years for their first airline job.
Just dont give up and good luck
I qualified in 2003 and have just started a job with an airline. It's a long, hard battle and very demoralising, but you have to keep on going.
I know a number of people who have waited 2-3 years for their first airline job.
Just dont give up and good luck
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To Husband of AW
At 34 you will need a large amount of luck on your side with low hours to progress into an airline. It took me 3 years just to get my first interview, then along came the second and the third spaced approx 1 year apart. I was a working pilot during this time also! There are some valid points on here about spending the extra money to get the F.I rating, gaining the valued hours which can help you progress on to the air taxi pilot role (if you got the balls haha!) Once in this domain, confidence in your self ability increases! You will become a more attractive option to a prospective employer. Remember the age vs experience thing, old age + no experience is not everyones cup of tea. You might want to think about that.
Good luck
Good luck
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Angry Wife
Firstly take the positive from these posts.... your Husband needs to stay positive to keep up the energy needed in pursuing this career, and your support will be a great help to him.
From my experience everyone who I did my initial training with, who didn't give up, is now employed (qualified 2001/02), many on there second type. Out of those, three were in their early forties. Those who really want the job (as long as they make the grade ie sim chk etc) will get there.
Staying current is the key.
- Keep IR current (before my 1st job I re-newed my IR for £600)
- Build experience/hours by taking friends/family on trips/glider towing/meat bombing...... any way you can.
- Consider Instructor rating
- Regular jet sim time, as an interview plus sim chk will come with little notice (I don't know where you live but there used to be a Trident sim at Biggen which was cheap as chips!)
When sending off CV's always follow up with a telephone call and try to build up contacts. You'll have to be thick skinned for this!
I might be repeating stuff previously said but I couldn't be bovvered to read all the posts.
Just remember it's not unusual to take a couple of years or more to land that first job!
Best of luck Mr&Mrs
From my experience everyone who I did my initial training with, who didn't give up, is now employed (qualified 2001/02), many on there second type. Out of those, three were in their early forties. Those who really want the job (as long as they make the grade ie sim chk etc) will get there.
Staying current is the key.
- Keep IR current (before my 1st job I re-newed my IR for £600)
- Build experience/hours by taking friends/family on trips/glider towing/meat bombing...... any way you can.
- Consider Instructor rating
- Regular jet sim time, as an interview plus sim chk will come with little notice (I don't know where you live but there used to be a Trident sim at Biggen which was cheap as chips!)
When sending off CV's always follow up with a telephone call and try to build up contacts. You'll have to be thick skinned for this!
I might be repeating stuff previously said but I couldn't be bovvered to read all the posts.
Just remember it's not unusual to take a couple of years or more to land that first job!
Best of luck Mr&Mrs
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Aviation, as we all know, demands the highest of standards from every indvidual regardless of whether your siblings/family are in the airline, however, if one doesnt cut the mustard, one doesnt get a job/qualification regardless of whether your father is in the airline.
With regard to jobhunting: If you ask a flying school, they will tell you right now is the best time to become a pilot, because there are actually quite a lot of people getting jobs these days. The only problem is that these people have paid an additional GBP 20K and probably work with very poor terms and conditions.
Looking at the Aviation industry over the past 10-15 years, it has only got worse with regards to terms and conditions for pilots.
Anyhow, I wish you all the best with the jobhunting. Just suck it up for the first couple years, and then the job is not so bad.
Good luck
Zakka
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Guys and Gals
I think many of you are very right in your wievs on The Industry. And I love reading about it. Mostly because I have seized to tell my friends and family about it - they simply don´t believe me. They think I'm full of self petty... and it can' be that hard. I know you know all the comments. I finished my training i early 2003. The usual story: Bankrupt schools, bad maintained planes. The Works.Nothing new there..
A captain once told me that the only reason why monkeys don't pilot aeroplanes is because they can' sepak english. Wtith I'm still batteling (as you may allready have noticed, but I'm getting there. The fact is that its actually fairly easy to become a pilot. Takes about 1,5 years and cost about half a house. It does'nt realy take that much brains or skill. anyone can become a pilot.
BUT...... employment - getting thet fxxxxxg job- makes climbing Mount Everest look like a walk in the park.
I have now been sitting in a nice turboprop wtih 1500 good ones in The Book. But getting there was a struggle and I think I know about 10 mio ways of making a can of tomatos and som macarony taste delicious. I still do.
I got my seat emptying the toilets on the same aircraft I'm now F/O on. For TWO YEARS!! I still can't use that same toilet - it makes me sick just looking at it.
My point: Hang in there. One day all you dreams and ambitions are no longer dreams. Get your fingers in the pie.
I think many of you are very right in your wievs on The Industry. And I love reading about it. Mostly because I have seized to tell my friends and family about it - they simply don´t believe me. They think I'm full of self petty... and it can' be that hard. I know you know all the comments. I finished my training i early 2003. The usual story: Bankrupt schools, bad maintained planes. The Works.Nothing new there..
A captain once told me that the only reason why monkeys don't pilot aeroplanes is because they can' sepak english. Wtith I'm still batteling (as you may allready have noticed, but I'm getting there. The fact is that its actually fairly easy to become a pilot. Takes about 1,5 years and cost about half a house. It does'nt realy take that much brains or skill. anyone can become a pilot.
BUT...... employment - getting thet fxxxxxg job- makes climbing Mount Everest look like a walk in the park.
I have now been sitting in a nice turboprop wtih 1500 good ones in The Book. But getting there was a struggle and I think I know about 10 mio ways of making a can of tomatos and som macarony taste delicious. I still do.
I got my seat emptying the toilets on the same aircraft I'm now F/O on. For TWO YEARS!! I still can't use that same toilet - it makes me sick just looking at it.
My point: Hang in there. One day all you dreams and ambitions are no longer dreams. Get your fingers in the pie.
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I would not clean any toilets for any airline or hand-out snacks and drinks, after spending such huge amounts on training.........to land a F/O job! You got your job, best of luck to you and your future.....
I'm seriously thinking about investing my £100,000 in something else, where the rewards etc etc etc are far greater than Aviation Industry.....
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Spitfire, it just goes to show, there are those who want it, and those who really really really want it. Some people are very very dedicated/persistant people.
I for one spent 18 months baggage handling at LHR. Tough job for a small person, crap weather, cramped conditions, crap pay, got stick from colleagues for studying on the job for ATPLs....
... it was part of the long process that got me into the right hand seat of a jet though.
I for one spent 18 months baggage handling at LHR. Tough job for a small person, crap weather, cramped conditions, crap pay, got stick from colleagues for studying on the job for ATPLs....
... it was part of the long process that got me into the right hand seat of a jet though.
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9 years as an aircraft refueller and I finish this job in 2 weeks time. Start my 737 type rating in 7 weeks time.
I know quite a few who were baggage handlers or dispatchers who now fly jets for a living.
One baggage handler started out at Brymon/BA Connect and has just gone to Monarch.
Another guy I know work at Serviceair at Manchester and is now with Ryanair.
Working on the ramp helps you build up contacts and get inside information.
Network, network, network is the key.
At the last BALPA conference, half the pilot managers already new me
I know quite a few who were baggage handlers or dispatchers who now fly jets for a living.
One baggage handler started out at Brymon/BA Connect and has just gone to Monarch.
Another guy I know work at Serviceair at Manchester and is now with Ryanair.
Working on the ramp helps you build up contacts and get inside information.
Network, network, network is the key.
At the last BALPA conference, half the pilot managers already new me
Humus Motor
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Angrywife a few words from the ‘excuses and crap’ department. I’ve been involved in training, management and recruiting in the airlines for about a quarter of a century and have as a consequence some sense of what is wanted by these carriers and how the positions within them are allocated.
As many of the posts here indicate, your anger is, sadly, based upon a somewhat false premise – that is that if you go out and fund yourself by fabulous amounts of cash, that this in itself should raise your chances of getting that first job. Furthermore, you seem to feel that there is in some way a moral obligation on the airlines to employ such a candidate in preference to say, someone who’s Father paid for the training or who has in other ways not suffered the same financial stress. In short – you paid a fortune, so we ‘owe you one’ for bothering. It is a simple fact that this is simply not the way it works and the airlines are generally, I’m sorry to tell you, almost entirely indifferent to the source of finance for the original training. The fairness or otherwise of that fact is, I’m afraid, neither here nor there. There is a frequently held view that the passion and dedication shown by re-mortgaging your house etc and putting yourself in debt by enormous amounts will somehow impress the airlines with your fantastic tenacity against the odds and make you the prime candidate. Sorry, but this is bunkum – utter baloney. When we are trying to fill that coveted right-hand seat with a balanced mix of experience we are interested in how well you fly, how well you ‘fit in’ (and there’s a subject on it’s own worth its own thread!) how you present yourself, how articulate you are, whether you’re a closet psychotic, how well you have prepared for both the interview and your career… well, the list goes on and on, but generally your previous financial arrangements don’t feature too highly. Ability does.
As it happens, I personally view the emergence of total self-finance as entirely lamentable, but it is an absolute fact that whether you, your partner or I like it or not, the market dominates. At this time the airlines are not short of applications from inexperienced pilots like your chap – in fact we are swamped with ‘em. It is experienced pilots that are in short supply, and the recruitment people must balance the experience levels across their fleets. You simply cannot have an airline full of what many companies choose to call ‘cadets’ so places for such pilots will be, of necessity, limited. And, by the way, in nearly forty years as a pilot I have only once seen someone shoehorned in by his Father .. and ironically, however much we hated the situation – and we did, believe me – he turned out to be a really first class pilot, damnit.
For what it’s worth, I love the opportunity to give someone like your bloke a chance, but it it’s clearly impossible to give ‘em all a go, and it so happens that at this moment my particular outfit have no vacancies for ‘newbies.’ It’s simply a commercial fact – in no way is it a vendetta against people like your partner. Eventually there’ll be vacancies, but it’s solely the commercial success of the airline that will determine when they occur.
I can speak with some authority on this subject for another reason than the rôle I hold now. I was in precisely the same position when I started. I commenced flight training in my late teens, and checked out in the right hand seat of an airliner at age 29 and I was flat, stony broke when I did - so 8 months is not a huge amount in that context eh? So, keep the faith, keep looking and pray for some luck – an element that holds more of a grip on success than it has a right to.
There has been a lot of really good advice in this thread – and may I direct you again to the post by scroggs – someone who writes total good sense in thread after thread; also the words from the Wee Weasly Welshman .. and ignore the disgraceful post from S Artois.
Good luck - genuinely - good luck.
As many of the posts here indicate, your anger is, sadly, based upon a somewhat false premise – that is that if you go out and fund yourself by fabulous amounts of cash, that this in itself should raise your chances of getting that first job. Furthermore, you seem to feel that there is in some way a moral obligation on the airlines to employ such a candidate in preference to say, someone who’s Father paid for the training or who has in other ways not suffered the same financial stress. In short – you paid a fortune, so we ‘owe you one’ for bothering. It is a simple fact that this is simply not the way it works and the airlines are generally, I’m sorry to tell you, almost entirely indifferent to the source of finance for the original training. The fairness or otherwise of that fact is, I’m afraid, neither here nor there. There is a frequently held view that the passion and dedication shown by re-mortgaging your house etc and putting yourself in debt by enormous amounts will somehow impress the airlines with your fantastic tenacity against the odds and make you the prime candidate. Sorry, but this is bunkum – utter baloney. When we are trying to fill that coveted right-hand seat with a balanced mix of experience we are interested in how well you fly, how well you ‘fit in’ (and there’s a subject on it’s own worth its own thread!) how you present yourself, how articulate you are, whether you’re a closet psychotic, how well you have prepared for both the interview and your career… well, the list goes on and on, but generally your previous financial arrangements don’t feature too highly. Ability does.
As it happens, I personally view the emergence of total self-finance as entirely lamentable, but it is an absolute fact that whether you, your partner or I like it or not, the market dominates. At this time the airlines are not short of applications from inexperienced pilots like your chap – in fact we are swamped with ‘em. It is experienced pilots that are in short supply, and the recruitment people must balance the experience levels across their fleets. You simply cannot have an airline full of what many companies choose to call ‘cadets’ so places for such pilots will be, of necessity, limited. And, by the way, in nearly forty years as a pilot I have only once seen someone shoehorned in by his Father .. and ironically, however much we hated the situation – and we did, believe me – he turned out to be a really first class pilot, damnit.
For what it’s worth, I love the opportunity to give someone like your bloke a chance, but it it’s clearly impossible to give ‘em all a go, and it so happens that at this moment my particular outfit have no vacancies for ‘newbies.’ It’s simply a commercial fact – in no way is it a vendetta against people like your partner. Eventually there’ll be vacancies, but it’s solely the commercial success of the airline that will determine when they occur.
I can speak with some authority on this subject for another reason than the rôle I hold now. I was in precisely the same position when I started. I commenced flight training in my late teens, and checked out in the right hand seat of an airliner at age 29 and I was flat, stony broke when I did - so 8 months is not a huge amount in that context eh? So, keep the faith, keep looking and pray for some luck – an element that holds more of a grip on success than it has a right to.
There has been a lot of really good advice in this thread – and may I direct you again to the post by scroggs – someone who writes total good sense in thread after thread; also the words from the Wee Weasly Welshman .. and ignore the disgraceful post from S Artois.
Good luck - genuinely - good luck.
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As has been mentioned this is all about expectations and sometimes false expectations. Angrywife in your situation your partner is quite older than most wannabes starting out therefore what I'm about to relate probably doesn't apply but because money (or the lack of it post training) is likely to be the root cause of your concern, I'll say it anyway.
I attained my PPL at age 18 with very high hopes of going commercial before 21. I even missed out on a degree because I was that eager! I'm now approaching 26 and currently in the middle of preparing for my ATPL exams. The big gap was due to a change of heart (post 9/11) realising that the world was not such an innocent place and that war, debt, lack of opportunities and economic turndown were all realities that could put me in a really bad position. I also had a medical scare (which thankfully is a distant memory now) which made me very quickly realise the fragility of any career as an Airline Pilot. All this forced me to look at other careers and I found one. Very quickly earning a respectable salary (£45k) which you'll agree is fantastic for someone in their mid-20s (you see flyboy1818 degrees are really not required to increase your salary; make one more intelligent; or to appear much more hard working!).
A couple of years ago I fell in love with the idea again (as it was the only thing I dreamt of as a child) so decided to enroll onto a distance learning program and complete my commercial training. Making slow progress now because I have all the baggage of a settled man but I'm financially stable and my expectations I think are good. In a nutshell I do not mind one bit if my first commercial opportunity comes at age 30.
I've seen far too many people who consider flying to be the only skill they need in life. People who are happy to skip learning another trade because they see flying as their only career. This to the point that they are quite happy seeing themselves flipping burgers whilst waiting for a flying job. My advice: NEVER EVER want this career by thinking it will be your one and only. Because for a lot of people it never is. Make sure there is another trade which excites you and that can comfortably bring food home on to the table and help you repay your loans and mortgage/rent. This, before, during and after your flight training. Providing you do this, you will not have any sense of urgency or desparation. However, age is not on Mr Angry's side and this is something I'm sure he knew about before he started.
As much as one may love the idea of a flying career as a first and only career, it is getting increasingly obvious that those who do not have experience in another field or after training do not plan to go back to it for the indefinite future will struggle (with loans and life's expenses in general after training) and become impatient (often losing the will to live). Best of luck to both of you.
I attained my PPL at age 18 with very high hopes of going commercial before 21. I even missed out on a degree because I was that eager! I'm now approaching 26 and currently in the middle of preparing for my ATPL exams. The big gap was due to a change of heart (post 9/11) realising that the world was not such an innocent place and that war, debt, lack of opportunities and economic turndown were all realities that could put me in a really bad position. I also had a medical scare (which thankfully is a distant memory now) which made me very quickly realise the fragility of any career as an Airline Pilot. All this forced me to look at other careers and I found one. Very quickly earning a respectable salary (£45k) which you'll agree is fantastic for someone in their mid-20s (you see flyboy1818 degrees are really not required to increase your salary; make one more intelligent; or to appear much more hard working!).
A couple of years ago I fell in love with the idea again (as it was the only thing I dreamt of as a child) so decided to enroll onto a distance learning program and complete my commercial training. Making slow progress now because I have all the baggage of a settled man but I'm financially stable and my expectations I think are good. In a nutshell I do not mind one bit if my first commercial opportunity comes at age 30.
I've seen far too many people who consider flying to be the only skill they need in life. People who are happy to skip learning another trade because they see flying as their only career. This to the point that they are quite happy seeing themselves flipping burgers whilst waiting for a flying job. My advice: NEVER EVER want this career by thinking it will be your one and only. Because for a lot of people it never is. Make sure there is another trade which excites you and that can comfortably bring food home on to the table and help you repay your loans and mortgage/rent. This, before, during and after your flight training. Providing you do this, you will not have any sense of urgency or desparation. However, age is not on Mr Angry's side and this is something I'm sure he knew about before he started.
As much as one may love the idea of a flying career as a first and only career, it is getting increasingly obvious that those who do not have experience in another field or after training do not plan to go back to it for the indefinite future will struggle (with loans and life's expenses in general after training) and become impatient (often losing the will to live). Best of luck to both of you.
Last edited by Superpilot; 11th Mar 2007 at 16:42.
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I got my CPL/IR/MCC in 2004. After a year getting nowhere fast with 200 hours I decided in the autumn of 2005 to do a Flying Instructor course on a part time basis at the weekends. I thoroughly enjoyed the course, it was hard work lots of reading but a lot of fun although the weather did it's best to drag things out that winter!
Six months later I had my FI rating in my license and a month later I was parked up in my delivery van one Friday lunchtime having a snooze when the phone rang. It was the Ops Manager from the flying club I had been a member at for several years since I got my PPL. "Have you got your Instructor rating issued yet?" she asked. "Yes it arrived yesterday". "Do you want a job for three months working saturday's and sunday's?". "Too bloody right I do, when do you want me to start?". "9am tomorrow".
Well ten months later I am still there both days every weekend. Between May and December last year I added 120 hours to my log book flying at the weekends. I cant afford to be a full time instructor - I have a mortgage now but through Instructing I earn't enough money to keep my multi and IR current and have enough left over to do my Night Instructors qualification (nice way to add some IFR hours is teaching Night Rating). By the end of this weekend I will have flown nearly 50 hours already this year.
Instructing is good fun, it improves your flying skills and it gives great personal satisfaction seeing your students progress as a resulf of your own efforts and encouragement.
So if you could afford all that money to get the CPL/IR can you not somehow find another £5000 to do an FI course? Even if your hubby just works weekends instructing for a couple of years he will have moved his CV further up the pile.
And the reason Transeuro say you need 700hrs to work for them is that it is a regulation that to fly single pilot IFR you need 700hrs.
Now I know somebody who got a job with them because he built up his hours Instructing. Several of their pilots have gone on to get turboprop jobs. And I know someone who got a job on the A320 with a very respectable outfit because the had turboprop time.
So from small acorns etc.....
Good luck, chin up and as we say at my club "don't just sit there - get one up!"
Six months later I had my FI rating in my license and a month later I was parked up in my delivery van one Friday lunchtime having a snooze when the phone rang. It was the Ops Manager from the flying club I had been a member at for several years since I got my PPL. "Have you got your Instructor rating issued yet?" she asked. "Yes it arrived yesterday". "Do you want a job for three months working saturday's and sunday's?". "Too bloody right I do, when do you want me to start?". "9am tomorrow".
Well ten months later I am still there both days every weekend. Between May and December last year I added 120 hours to my log book flying at the weekends. I cant afford to be a full time instructor - I have a mortgage now but through Instructing I earn't enough money to keep my multi and IR current and have enough left over to do my Night Instructors qualification (nice way to add some IFR hours is teaching Night Rating). By the end of this weekend I will have flown nearly 50 hours already this year.
Instructing is good fun, it improves your flying skills and it gives great personal satisfaction seeing your students progress as a resulf of your own efforts and encouragement.
So if you could afford all that money to get the CPL/IR can you not somehow find another £5000 to do an FI course? Even if your hubby just works weekends instructing for a couple of years he will have moved his CV further up the pile.
And the reason Transeuro say you need 700hrs to work for them is that it is a regulation that to fly single pilot IFR you need 700hrs.
Now I know somebody who got a job with them because he built up his hours Instructing. Several of their pilots have gone on to get turboprop jobs. And I know someone who got a job on the A320 with a very respectable outfit because the had turboprop time.
So from small acorns etc.....
Good luck, chin up and as we say at my club "don't just sit there - get one up!"
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Superpilot,
If you dont mind me asking, what career did you start that paid you £45k? I will have a BEng in Aeronautical Engineering and hopefully that should be enough to fall back on if I fail to find a job after completing an fATPL. There are lots of graduate courses with banks etc that I know would accept me if I did not find that evasive first job. Then hopefully I could get an instrutors rating like timzsta
If you dont mind me asking, what career did you start that paid you £45k? I will have a BEng in Aeronautical Engineering and hopefully that should be enough to fall back on if I fail to find a job after completing an fATPL. There are lots of graduate courses with banks etc that I know would accept me if I did not find that evasive first job. Then hopefully I could get an instrutors rating like timzsta
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Angrywife:
Like most others in this forum, I can empathize with your partner. I too was jobless for a while after my flight training, however, the key is persistence. I got my break 2 months ago and then another one 3 weeks ago. I realize reading about other peoples break is a double edged sword. You're motivated by it but on the other hand you're wondering when and if it'll ever happen to you. THe fact is, airlines will hire you if you have legal requirements to serve as aircrew. More so now as there is a shortage of pilots. Ryanair is hiring like crazy so it's worth continuing to knock on their door. Hope it all works out for you.
K
Like most others in this forum, I can empathize with your partner. I too was jobless for a while after my flight training, however, the key is persistence. I got my break 2 months ago and then another one 3 weeks ago. I realize reading about other peoples break is a double edged sword. You're motivated by it but on the other hand you're wondering when and if it'll ever happen to you. THe fact is, airlines will hire you if you have legal requirements to serve as aircrew. More so now as there is a shortage of pilots. Ryanair is hiring like crazy so it's worth continuing to knock on their door. Hope it all works out for you.
K