PrestonPilot

Made the cut on an entirely staged selection day which whilst they obviously have to have some sort of selection doesn't really mean a lot once you are working for them.....
A better question would be how many of those untagged cadets can pass everything well with high grades and first time passes and therefore be suitable to fly for the airline. Nearly all of them because nearly everyone who does CTC passes the exams and licences.
Your point isn't relevant.

Bubulle

Really??? Do you have any numbers? No doubt that CTC will be pleased to provide you the exact figure if it's the case...

BerksFlyer

Why do they bother then?

More relevantly, perhaps, why did CTC themselves bother with a more thorough selection process back in the times of unsecured loans and bond repayments by what was a larger pool of of partner airlines (2005/2007)? It was a fantastic scheme back then. Now, not so good.

As the deal worsens, the quality of the product (those leaving/joining CTC) decreases. What was that quote on CHIRP? "Woefully undertrained". http://www.chirp.co.uk/Downloads/ATFB/ATFB101.pdf

People talking about CTC's placement record, has it not occurred to you that they continue to place people on flexicrew because it is a profit centre for them? They will continue to place people until the day when there are so many flexi FOs at easyJet that each is flying such a small amount that even the most deluded will start to shy away from signing up. I actually doubt the most deluded will ever stop signing up, though my sentiments remain.

I think you overestimate the worldview of many training to be pilots at the moment. Infact, I sure hope you are, because I simply see no reason whatsoever why anyone who had any grasp of what is going on in the world at the moment, would start training on an untagged scheme.

There's nothing like just waiting a while is there? It has to be now now now, even of the outlook is absolutely awful.

PURPLE PITOT

They still won't get it. It's not what they want to hear.

spider_man

Hasn't easyjet just laid off 50 CTC Flexiscrew pilots?

Not through lack of ability, failure to pass training or reduction in pilot headcount, but simply to make way for the next CTC cadets willing to pay for a RHS job. Nice!

Where do you flexicrew pilots go with 500 hours on a320 when easyjet terminate your contract at the start of a long winter??

PURPLE PITOT

I reiterate my previous comment!

spider_man

Which part of my post was nonsense?

That easyjet have laid off 50 flexcrew ctc pilots or, that easyjet will take on fresh ctc cadets next year who have paid £120,000 to get a job with easyjet to replace those not kept on from this year?

Perhaps you are closer to the matter to elaborate for us.

La Amistad

I think the reason that JS said that it is nonsense is that the airline has promised to take the cadets back on next summer. So they are "just" stood down for a few months.

I would warn people applying for the scheme to factor this in when working out future finances as I bet it happens again in winter 2013 but I know no-one will listen so why bother! Just go bankrupt like so many others! Soon sorts it all out!

P.S at least one getting returned has been with the airline for over a year! Just as you finally start to earn money.....boom! Bet that isn't in the CTC brochure!

RoyHudd

CTC are not crooks. They really are good folk who believe flexicrew is the way forward.

Did any of their management pay for a jot of their training? Another issue entirely, friends.

ManUtd1999

I thought I'd add my two cents worth to this whole CTC debate. I'm currently at uni and dreaming of becoming a pilot. If FPP is still around in a few years of course I'll apply, along with any other decent sponsored/mentored schemes. However, there's a difference between commitment and dedication to achieving your goal, and financial suicide.

If you can afford to pay for the training, good luck to you. If not and your relying on loans, is it really worth betting your or your parents house on there being a job for you that covers the bills post-training? We're in a recession and the situation in Europe is worsening. Easyjet are slowing down on growth, TCX was close to bankruptcy just last year and other CTC partners are hardly what you'd call safe. Even if you get lucky and there's a job for you, the terms are lamentable.

I'm hoping that if I'm fortunate enough to get a decent non-piloting job in the mean time, waiting for better schemes like FPP to come up will work for me. A lot can change and the jobs market could look vastly different in 2/3 years time. It would only take a few airlines to start better ab-initio schemes and CTC would start to struggle for quality applicants. If it doesn't and CTC is left as the only option, then I'm afraid I don't want it badly enough and I'll settle for a different career.

Bealzebub

Yet there is so much paradox in what you say.

FPP is a scheme that is conducted through Flight Training Organisations, one of which is CTC. In fact CTC through one of their own subsidary companies (APL) is charged with the administration of the sponsorship/bonding programme that underpins the scheme.

Those graduates who are now completing placements with at least one partner airline are being offered full time employment contracts which should yield around 4000+ hours of jet airliner experience over the next 5 years and a gross income (before tax) of over a quarter of a million pounds over the same period. The flying experience should (if all works out well) place those same graduates in a position to move to their respective left hand seat commands by the end of that same period.

Do you think those terms are lamentable?

FPP is a reasonable scheme, but it is a scheme arranged with one airline. There are other good schemes as well that use many of these same arrangements. You make the mistake of becoming too narrowly focused on only one part of the picture. To be fair, that part of the picture has been the biggest panorama over the last 5 years, because it is has been the only part of the picture where significant growth has occured. As the focus shifts to other partners, as well as new partners in those parts of the world earmarked for strong projected growth, so the dynamic is likely to shift.

Again I must make the point that there are no guarantees, and the risk element is substantial, but the idea that those realities are likely to change is frankly ludicrous. The airlines that have "better" ab-initio schemes, as well as those that are considering the creation and expansion of new ones, are not taking any serious risks, they are using the same established and recognised FTO's. Those organisations have geared up their infrastructure and investment to take advantage of future opportunities as and when they arise.

Everybody wants an upturn in the market. The reality is that as and when it comes, it will result in an expansion of the cadet training schemes that already exist and have prepared infrastructure to respond to that demand.

If you don't want it badly enough...(shrug)....somebody else will.

BerksFlyer

You are incorrect in that there is no other scheme with the facility for a loan to be guaranteed by the mentorship airline. That is of key importance for those who do not have access to the security collateral otherwise required.

Bealzebub

The FPP scheme has the facilty, but the terms of the scheme encourage utilising the same loan arrangements that the partner FTO (and administrator) uses for their other partner programmes. As I pointed out, each scheme utilizes their own arrangements, and many of the constituent parts are common. The FPP scheme, is a scheme arranged with one airline.

ManUtd1999

FPP and CTC Wings are light years apart in what they're offering. The fact BA will back your loan and then repay it to you once you're (hopefully) employed is a massive difference if you can't afford the training costs outright.

No, but there's a big if involved in all of that, it rely's on you getting very lucky. If you end up at Easyjet (the most likely option at present), you will be asked for a further £10,000 for a type-rating, you're not on a permanent contract, you're not guaranteed a minimum number of hours/salary, you have no job security. That is lamentable.

Hopefully some will take a look at FPP and decide to go down a similar route and not just get on the phone to CTC Wings.

Lets just hope that that 'someone else' has thought long and hard about the financial implications of it.

davidl

Hello!

I have my assessment day on the 19st september , does anyone else have the same date?

Look forward to hearing from you all!

truckflyer

I recently had the pleasure to have a sim session with a TRI from Easy, and we had a small conversation regarding the company! And he simply slammed the company for their politics with regards to new pilot hire. The direction it was going was highly undesirable.

During winter there would be FO's with hardly any money at all, all this is "promoted" by CTC in corporation with Easy!

Now this is an aspect shared also with other companies, they want pilots to pay their own TR, and come and work with them for 6 - 8 months during the summer, and than see what happens!

Now the people who fail to see the dynamics of this corporation of doom, should know, they are effectively accepting the future demise of their own profession! Unless you are a Captain, you are a commodity to be used and disposed of!

During our first 30 minutes, me and my friend, was pretty shocked by his frank and honest assessment of Easy, and it was quite opposite to what I personally thought was well run company!

You will go to these FTO's, spend around £100.000 + TR, and they will offer you a summer contract!

Now here is a good reason for not extending contracts of these summer pilots, next term CTC have a new lot of pilots that need placement, the flow must go on, because CTC needs to make money, Easy need cheap pilots, SFI's, TRI's at Easy need extra jobs, which they do for CTC and Easy, so it all adds up nicely for everybody involved, except the unlucky FO, who gets a pink slip just before Christmas! Nice......!

Bealzebub

The ones who came and worked for us had their type ratings paid for. They accrued around 500 hours on type during their 6-8 month placement, during which time they received around £2000 a month and at the end of it they were offered full time employment contracts....Tragic!

Every coin has two sides.....Heads or tails?

truckflyer

I think it has more to do with the fact that some of the pilots in the company, "experienced ones", can see that the long term future of the profession is shaped this way, and they see it as a degradation of future T & C for all in the end.

Short term contracts, "summer contracts" is not a satisfactory option for anyone, as this gives plenty of room for abuse and degradation of overall terms.

Now from what I have understood, CTC contracts do not promise that Easy or any other company will pay the TR.

I seriously doubt Easy will pay the full TR for somebody to come and work for 6 - 8 months, that does not sound like a reasonable assumption, considering the outlay that would be for them.
Also the amounts that I have heard rumours of, are close to £1200 than £2000.

Even compared to Ryanair, that becomes an extremely bad deal, where you are looking at summer periods where you triple this pay + minimum hours guaranteed for the winter months.

I understood to everybody got offered full time contracts, because why else would union pilots within Easy not be happy with such agreements?

As he told me, you could hardly call Easy a proper airline anymore, as they are going towards the same style of employment as Ryanair and other similar companies, mainly looking to employ contract pilots.

As an example of issues involving this now, several governments in various European countries are actively investigating several pilots for tax fraud, as many since they have been "self-employed", have not been doing their paperwork properly. Also some countries require certain criteria to be met, for a person to be self-employed, and one of the criteria is that you can not operate 12 months for the same company! I know of a few Scandinavian countries looking into this, and I am sure this will come to other parts too.

Not really my problem, however I was fairly surprised by the fairly strong viewpoint, obviously from somebody very dedicated to the company, and to improve T & C's for other fellow pilots in his own company.

Bealzebub

They would be slow not to, since there has been an overall degradation of industry wide T&C's over the last 15 years. Working for one of the two largest European pioneers of "Low cost" air transportation your TRI would have had a good view of this evolution. When he wasn't "slamming" his company to people he had just met, and were presumably paying him for the services he was able to moonlight, as an adjunct to his employment. He would presumably have had a good understanding of the business environment he operated in.

"Low cost" imported a revolution in the way airlines operated. They imported the idea from the USA and added their own respective Irish and Greek (an irony not lost,) flavours to the formula. "Low cost" meant stripping out the fat wherever it could be found, and wherever it was allowed. Single fleet bulk aircraft purchases. Minimum airport and handling charges. Maintenance and safety was regulated. Fuel was cartel price fixed. The next big ticket item was labour costs. They studied the rule book, and played what was to become an extremely depressed labour market. They counted on the fact that "cheap as a pair of jeans" and "I might moan to high heaven but I don't care as long as I can fly for £1" would be a succesful formula......And they were right!

In parallel to what was happening in the rest of the economy, final salary pensions evaporated. Welfare provisions were either torn up or cut to the bone. Salaries were cut, or the qualifying working hours raised to effect a cut. Experience became an unnecessary commodity in the right seat, and to a greater or lesser extent in the left seat as well. The result was that these new "low cost" airlines were growth industries in the face of global recession. Not just growth industries, but profitable growth industries.

Legacy carriers from the smallest to the largest were forced to adapt their own business models to survive in the face of this competition. Some did, some didn't. The survivors were usually faced with cutting back their staff numbers, or effectively doing the same by merging and consolidating with other companies in order to survive.

Pilots (and a lot of them) were forced to either accept the new realities and seek out work where it existed, or move to the growth regions of the Middle and Far East. The writing was on the wall over a decade ago for all but the most myopic or narcoleptic of daydreamers!

Couple this with a few other realities. Retirement ages were raised during this same period by 5 and in some cases 10 years. This took pressure off the experience base in the left seat as Captains naturally took advantage of the opportunities to counter their own recession induced realities. Labour supply exponentially began to outstrip demand. Cost advantage margins began to shrink as competition caught up, and the "Lo-Co's" had to explore deeper wells to maintain the advantage essential to their own growth and long term health. Fuel, maintenance and safety was still too difficult to touch, so it was back to the old favourites.

Then we come to the bit that this forum is all about..."wanabees." Well here the news wasn't all bad. Apprentices from specific sources, were placed in the right seat as "Cadets." This became a growth industry in an environment demanding cost savings. There was no shortage of well qualified and well trained candidates, and throughout the last decade and a half, the supply has grown to such an extent, that I regularly come on here and point out just where those opportunities lie. It isn't something a lot of people want to hear, much less believe, but it remains an accurate observation of reality. There are jobs for cadets. There will be a growth in jobs for cadets as the economy improves. The infrastructure has been built and invested in, to provide for that growth.

What never fails to amaze me is that although we have been saying this here for many years. Although we have been shouting from the rooftops about the realities of this market, there are still people like yourself who simply refuse to accept these realities and seem bewildered and surprised when they are repeated. I see in your last post you stated:
How many times have we said that there are no promises. There simply can be no promises. These are commercial companies operating in a Capitalist economy. They only create demand when there is a need. The FTO's depend on the airlines to pass on their graduates. They have customers at both ends of the spectrum. They don't create the demand at the airline placement level, their airline partners do that. Similarly they don't set the terms and conditions for airline placements, each customer airline sets their own.

When you gave up the job with the Tigers a few years back, did you honestly believe that these very apparant, established (by then) and real evolutions in the market, were not going to affect you? Did you think that once you had aquired the cheapest route to a CPL/IR, terms and conditions would revert back to the legacy scales that were offered to pilots with ten times your experience even when they did exist? Did you think "low cost" meant everything but your labour? If you did, you were naive and ignorant, because plenty of "experienced" pilots were happy to spell out the realities to you. In any event you can take some consolation in the fact you had plenty of like minded company.

For some wanabees it is not all gloom and doom. There are areas of opportunity for those with both the wit and luck to find them. There are airline opportunities for cadets, if those aspirants are careful, well researched, and also lucky. What there aren't are guarantees, promises, or the right to gainful employment.

I have said this before (many times) but am happy to repeat it. easyjet, whatever you may think of it, was a company that kept the flow of new recruits to the airline industry running, when it had all but dried up in most other sectors of the market. These were "apprenticeships" to a number of aspirant very low experienced airline pilot wanabees. As a leading exponent of the whole "low cost" philosophy, they took advantage of the market to exploit the cost savings open to them. That might not seem very nice to you or I, but it was the very nature of the beast itself.

As other companies now come back into the market, demand might cause those T&C's to improve. Just as likely however, is that it will cause other companies to re-evalute their own potential cost savings? Supply and demand will set the market price as it usually does. Unfortunetaly, with supply potential from the "experienced" pilot market, competing with pricing at the "apprenticeship" level, I wouldn't draw any short term optimism on this score.

Truckflyer, or TigermagicJohn or whatever you call yourself this week, You need to wake up and smell the coffee! This is an industry that owes you nothing. Rather like those Tigers, it will chew you up and spit you out if you dont afford it caution, respect, and an honest acceptance of the nature of the beast. It isn't what you think it is. It isn't what you want it to be, and frankly, in many ways it never has been.

You are blinkered and narrowly focused if you believe cadets, or CTC or easyjet are to blame for this situation. You can highlight your own scapegoats, but it will make absolutely no difference to the realities.

truckflyer

I am not saying the industry owes me anything, I have walked into the situation with my eyes wide open!

For me, even though I am not happy with the current T & C's, I am in the fortunate situation that I have other income, so a starter "pilot salary" is not going to break my back.

You seem to be extremely obsessed with tigers, I haven't got clue of what you are speaking about!

I am just referring to your statement, that cadets was given "TR" for 6 - 8 months contract, for me that would make extremely bad business sense for Easy, and I doubt this is correct!

I know of guys who was there on £1200 a month, got their 500 hours and left Monarch!

I doubt that would have been possible if Easy had paid their TR, but you should be in better position than me to know this. But it does not fit with the rest of the business model, of giving people summer contracts only!

Don't get me wrong, there was German company who did the same, offered 6 months contract, you pay your own TR, pay was not bad actually, but no promises after those 6 months!

Everybody has to find a place, do their best and just move on if things don't go as they wish, this is the nature of the beast today!

A mate of mine, calculated he did around 500 hours on the job time a month, and it worked out an average £4 an hour incl. sector pay! (not for Easy)

Simply what CTC has done, is that they have made it a moneys game to get the chance, it will not give the best candidates, but the guys with the money will get priority, which again, nature of the beast!

This part does not concern me, but it does effect the future recruitment of pilots!

To many do not do their research properly! This is one of the main problems!