The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zippy Monster has hit the nail on the head. Where does it end? You pay for a £70,000 integrated course. You then pay for a £25,000 type rating. You then pay for 500 hours line training (which incidentally, despite whatever you may be told or might think, is worth diddly squat at the moment). Then you do what? Pay for 500 more? How long before there is a scheme offering "1500 hours" to unfreeze your ATPL? I suspect not long.
After that, you are given a "cadet" salary and a "flexi" contract whereby you are kicked out for 6 months over winter and left to your own devices. And that's if you are one of the lucky ones!
People wail "well what are we supposed to do?". I'm afraid the answer to that is - something else. At least for the time being until things improve. Of course, if you have money to burn then no one, least of all an anonymous poster on pprune, is going to convince you otherwise. Good luck to you. Personally I think you'd have to be barking mad.
People getting themselves in to unmanageable amounts of debt is how the economy got in to to such a mess. Quite how people are still managing to get these huge flight training loans approved is beyond me.
V2
After that, you are given a "cadet" salary and a "flexi" contract whereby you are kicked out for 6 months over winter and left to your own devices. And that's if you are one of the lucky ones!
People wail "well what are we supposed to do?". I'm afraid the answer to that is - something else. At least for the time being until things improve. Of course, if you have money to burn then no one, least of all an anonymous poster on pprune, is going to convince you otherwise. Good luck to you. Personally I think you'd have to be barking mad.
People getting themselves in to unmanageable amounts of debt is how the economy got in to to such a mess. Quite how people are still managing to get these huge flight training loans approved is beyond me.
V2
I've been feeling this way for some considerable time now.
As an economist I admire how the free market keeps discovering how cheaply it can buy airline pilots. As a pilot I hate the exact same thing. As a human being I fear for those people who are miss-calculating the cost/benefit of pilot training - they stand to lose money, time, ambition, relationships and sanity.
The sidelines is the place to be.
WWW
As an economist I admire how the free market keeps discovering how cheaply it can buy airline pilots. As a pilot I hate the exact same thing. As a human being I fear for those people who are miss-calculating the cost/benefit of pilot training - they stand to lose money, time, ambition, relationships and sanity.
The sidelines is the place to be.
WWW
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Wee Weasley Welshman
As a human being I fear for those people who are miss-calculating
Sure, to begin with I felt compassion and sympathy for my fellow man, but now I'm finding a deep sense of entertainment and amusement at watching so many young things going against the reams of sound advice and committing financial suicide that will scar them for the rest of their adult lives.
I don't normally get pleasure out of seeing other people's pain or misery, but it's a bit like watching sheep jumping over a cliff - you feel natural sorrow at first but after a while you begin to quite enjoy watching the satisfying splat at the bottom.
Last edited by v6g; 6th Aug 2009 at 22:13.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but it's a bit like watching sheep jumping over a cliff - you feel natural sorrow at first but after a while you begin to quite enjoy watching the satisfying splat at the bottom.
and distressing.Never the less I would agree.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It remains the case that 'the majority' of folks following a 500hrs 'Line Training' package have secured work.
This work will not be supremely well paid, or UK based, but will allow the further all important experience to be built.
When was the last time you spotted a post from someone that had completed a 500hr Line Training Package 'crying' that they can't get a gig? No? I haven't either!
This work will not be supremely well paid, or UK based, but will allow the further all important experience to be built.
When was the last time you spotted a post from someone that had completed a 500hr Line Training Package 'crying' that they can't get a gig? No? I haven't either!
It remains the case that 'the majority' of folks following a 500hrs 'Line Training' package have secured work.
When was the last time you spotted a post from someone that had completed a 500hr Line Training Package 'crying' that they can't get a gig?
You still haven't answered my earlier points by the way.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Zippy,
Sorry for the apparent tardiness in replying to last weeks questions, ( been away for 4 days to the Sim doing my OPC).
To answer / qualify some of my earlier points and your questions.
1. Funding; everyone is different. The 'bank of Mum and Dad' would seem the ubiquitous favorite. It might be argued that a 'fresh blue book' is unemployable so one either writes off their losses or invests a little more to become 'employable'. Further, I believe that a FATPL has a 'shelf life' as newly aquired flying skills are highly perishable, so don't delay unduly! Clearly 500 hours intensive experience on type will have a better 'shelf life' than the TR alone.
2. Who have I met that these 'schemes' have worked out for? Well, the two tenants that I have rented a property out to. The Chap (ex ATP) I met last week in GVA that has now secured a RHS on LR 60 for Vista Jet. 3 Guy's I met in GMNN working for RAM ( Dutch ex Eagle Jet ).
3. I believe it is 'telling', as a thermometer of these schemes, that there are no 'crying' posts from anyone that has bought 500hrs experience on type. Where are all these folks that have been duped?
4. What has this to do with CTC? Well, my fundamental point is that in the new market experience on type is a must. Any scheme, (irrespective of its architecture), that gets a candidate CAT experience on type is the way ahead! Whether you use CTC, ATP, EJ is down to choice, but 500hours on type is the requisite 'gate' to be achieved. Although I note the chap at Vista did well to get a LR 60 type rating ( I'm very jealous ).
Finally, I am no fan of these schemes or the market forces that have given rise to these 'dark' practices. That said, it would seem that it can work out for some people. To this end, I think it is important that these wannabe threads receive a balanced view.
Sorry for the apparent tardiness in replying to last weeks questions, ( been away for 4 days to the Sim doing my OPC).
To answer / qualify some of my earlier points and your questions.
1. Funding; everyone is different. The 'bank of Mum and Dad' would seem the ubiquitous favorite. It might be argued that a 'fresh blue book' is unemployable so one either writes off their losses or invests a little more to become 'employable'. Further, I believe that a FATPL has a 'shelf life' as newly aquired flying skills are highly perishable, so don't delay unduly! Clearly 500 hours intensive experience on type will have a better 'shelf life' than the TR alone.
2. Who have I met that these 'schemes' have worked out for? Well, the two tenants that I have rented a property out to. The Chap (ex ATP) I met last week in GVA that has now secured a RHS on LR 60 for Vista Jet. 3 Guy's I met in GMNN working for RAM ( Dutch ex Eagle Jet ).
3. I believe it is 'telling', as a thermometer of these schemes, that there are no 'crying' posts from anyone that has bought 500hrs experience on type. Where are all these folks that have been duped?
4. What has this to do with CTC? Well, my fundamental point is that in the new market experience on type is a must. Any scheme, (irrespective of its architecture), that gets a candidate CAT experience on type is the way ahead! Whether you use CTC, ATP, EJ is down to choice, but 500hours on type is the requisite 'gate' to be achieved. Although I note the chap at Vista did well to get a LR 60 type rating ( I'm very jealous ).
Finally, I am no fan of these schemes or the market forces that have given rise to these 'dark' practices. That said, it would seem that it can work out for some people. To this end, I think it is important that these wannabe threads receive a balanced view.
Last edited by BigNumber; 9th Aug 2009 at 14:24.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Barcelona
Age: 41
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to give "balance" i know two chaps who have recently been through the ATP scheme. Firstly they only offer 150 hours on the line, NOT 500 as you're suggesting BN.
Secondly they have not secured further employment either through ATP or off their own back.
Secondly they have not secured further employment either through ATP or off their own back.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Mixmaster,
I'm sorry to hear that these guy's have not yet secured work.
To be clear, I am of the opinion a minimum of 500hrs Line Training is required in todays market.
I thought ATP now offered this programme. Perhaps I was mistaken; sorry.
BN
I'm sorry to hear that these guy's have not yet secured work.
To be clear, I am of the opinion a minimum of 500hrs Line Training is required in todays market.
I thought ATP now offered this programme. Perhaps I was mistaken; sorry.
BN
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps I was mistaken; sorry.
Last edited by Ollie23; 9th Aug 2009 at 18:44.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it is being purchased then I would struggle to call it anything else 
.
Line Flying would 'classically' attract some remuneration.
Anyway, I survived the sim for another 6 months so off to the pub.
.Line Flying would 'classically' attract some remuneration.
Anyway, I survived the sim for another 6 months so off to the pub.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London
Age: 37
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How Deppressing
How depressing, I am stuck......I am doing ok in the design industry but know I was meant for a different line of work. Airline?? I really don’t know, I always thought I would be a pilot but for no particular reason except I have always been interested in flying (never done anything about it), the lifestyle would suit me fine and 'how could I not like it' kind of optimism. BUT I am one of those people who do not have a clue till I do it!!! I have been accepted to CTC but I have always been dubious about them. It seams too good to be true and possibly it is (especially after reading this forum). the main reason for being dubious was because I could find not a bad word about the company either through word of mouth or any internet search (clever Google editing by CTC I expect) until I found this refreshing forum in all its glory!! And I like to hear the other side.
I have certainly decided to hold fire (you can hold your position as I found out, contrary to what I have read on here), certainly until the ominous holding pool reduces to a manageable size and there is a little more than just a dim glimmer at the end of the tunnel. The other slightly selfish reason being, i have a few contacts who are on the cadet scheme now and i want a non glorified version of 'how its going'.
There was meant to be a point in here somewhere which is, at least i have a half decent job, but still if i am going to be a pilot then why wait, inflation is still roughly level with interest so its a great time for loans. What will i gain, from waiting that actually counts when or if i get there? Maybe less time in a holding pool. but all i will be doing then is working like i am now. I don’t know, i doubt the whole airline industry is going to cave in on its self, so there must be a dim light at least.
A few questions - are we going to have to compete with cheaper pilots from Asia, as my dad insists?
Do you actually have a passion for flying to enjoy the job? (this is not a stupid question have no particular passion for any job, and i don’t know if i have a passion for a job i have never done. i have flown one plane and one sim (for phase 4) and i loved it. but that’s not the job!!!!)
Feedback no matter how harsh and honest, much appreciated from all you lovely people on the pprune forum.
I have certainly decided to hold fire (you can hold your position as I found out, contrary to what I have read on here), certainly until the ominous holding pool reduces to a manageable size and there is a little more than just a dim glimmer at the end of the tunnel. The other slightly selfish reason being, i have a few contacts who are on the cadet scheme now and i want a non glorified version of 'how its going'.
There was meant to be a point in here somewhere which is, at least i have a half decent job, but still if i am going to be a pilot then why wait, inflation is still roughly level with interest so its a great time for loans. What will i gain, from waiting that actually counts when or if i get there? Maybe less time in a holding pool. but all i will be doing then is working like i am now. I don’t know, i doubt the whole airline industry is going to cave in on its self, so there must be a dim light at least.
A few questions - are we going to have to compete with cheaper pilots from Asia, as my dad insists?
Do you actually have a passion for flying to enjoy the job? (this is not a stupid question have no particular passion for any job, and i don’t know if i have a passion for a job i have never done. i have flown one plane and one sim (for phase 4) and i loved it. but that’s not the job!!!!)
Feedback no matter how harsh and honest, much appreciated from all you lovely people on the pprune forum.
hmmmplanes, I think your plan to stay put is a wise one at this moment. From sitting in the ominous CTC hold pool you mention things are not looking there best at the moment. From my own thoughts and what I've read, aim to finish 2012 - 2013, in the winter time, that is when most of the recruitment is likely to take place. Winter 2012 it is then.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: England
Age: 40
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please, where has this idea that 500hrs on type opens doors comes from?
It is totally and utterly deluded in today's market. If you're extremely lucky and willing to accept some pretty dodgy terms in some pretty dodgy places you might be lucky enough to get a job in some crap place. And I do mean you would be lucky.
It will stand you in good stead if you manage to keep current until things do pick up in a few years, but for now its pretty tough.
It is totally and utterly deluded in today's market. If you're extremely lucky and willing to accept some pretty dodgy terms in some pretty dodgy places you might be lucky enough to get a job in some crap place. And I do mean you would be lucky.
It will stand you in good stead if you manage to keep current until things do pick up in a few years, but for now its pretty tough.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: .
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following a thread about the EZY hold pool I was wondering actually what cadets coming through CTC now would prefer. I haven't posted this on the CTC internal forum as I wasn't sure if people would dare reply incase they rock the boat.
But what do you think the cadets coming through now to EZY would prefer? A few guys to get full-time contracts or several to get experience and have to come back over a couple of years on a contract?
What is better for you all? A longer wait with no flying at all for a full-time position or a short wait for a couple of years of summer only contracts?
I pose this question ignoring the dangers of trend setting and potentially winding up with contract summer FO's for many years to come. Imagine that things were to pick up in a couple of years and hiring were to return to normal.
A lot getting a little, or a few getting a lot!?!?!
But what do you think the cadets coming through now to EZY would prefer? A few guys to get full-time contracts or several to get experience and have to come back over a couple of years on a contract?
What is better for you all? A longer wait with no flying at all for a full-time position or a short wait for a couple of years of summer only contracts?
I pose this question ignoring the dangers of trend setting and potentially winding up with contract summer FO's for many years to come. Imagine that things were to pick up in a couple of years and hiring were to return to normal.
A lot getting a little, or a few getting a lot!?!?!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: egll
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good question given our current circumstance. Personally, I'd prefer a few get a lot. I'd like to know that when I do finally get a place, it will be permanent, and not this 6 months then see ya stuff . If I have to wait two years, so be it, I can go after work where I am currently, and look forward to a call to the right seat at some point in the not too distant future. However, I think if I resided permanently in the UK, my tune might be a bit different.
Interested to hear what others think
. If I have to wait two years, so be it, I can go after work where I am currently, and look forward to a call to the right seat at some point in the not too distant future. However, I think if I resided permanently in the UK, my tune might be a bit different.Interested to hear what others think
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ex-CTC
hi guys and girls, thought i should offer some of you aspiring pilots some insight and advice to the journey of becoming a commercial pilot. I started my cadet programme what must be 2 years ago, god time has flown by, and have now jumped over my last hurdle 
officially a qualified commercial pilot....but its not all happy days, but i guess thats just reality. well recession has sure had a detremental effect to the aviation injustry, right now at an educated guess well over 50% of the qualified pilots are unemployed, me being one of many.
Fair enough, many people are unemployed in the UK at the moment due to the economic downturn, but the 100k debt im in isnt funny business! Im working 5 days a week, 9 to 5 a technician, as well as a part time job in a bar doing nightshifts just to be able to pay the bank from reposessing my parents house. I have also had to resort to moving back in with the parents as I cannot afford to pay the rent and am contemplating on selling my beloved vw golf. when i first joined CTC my initial reaction to the debt was, no worries once im earning as a pilot ill pay it off, take it each day as it comes.....HOW WRONG WAS I!!
CTC does not guarantee employment, and i cannot blame them for recession now can i?! it was my own risk, a chance i wanted to take to do something i loved, but life is not a dream and in reality there are things called "pay back the monthly installments of your loan or your family will live on the streets" and there's the other option "share a cell with a man who calls himself betty and likes to look at you while you're sleeping" so remember that whether you secure employment as a pilot or not, the loans have to be repaid...at 1k per month! the bank doesnt care you're not working! so my golden advice is if you are really wanting to persue a career as a pilot, learn how to count cards and win yourself around 80k from the casino, or if you have a rich father...start doing his ironing for him and make sure u wash his porsche every sunday. but not all of us can count cards or come from wealthy backgrounds rite?
so my strong advice (i sure wish someone had told me before I got myself in such a financial pickle) is to wait for the economy to come out of this slump, which can be anything from three to four years so ive been told by a friend of mine who is a financial advisor, and to apply then. that way once you graduate the economy will have had two years to really get itself going and employment will be...well hopefully...plentiful look at it this way, although you may become a qualified commercial pilot later, the 100k debt is inevitable, and why not seek employment now and save up say....25k over these three/four years and be able to use that and pay towards the course. that way your bank loan is alot less and believe it or not will save you thousands in interest!! I sure wish I had followed that path! or you could do it my way, end up in an astounishing amount of debt, with little hope of securing employment as a pilot within the next 6 months and no flat, no car and too much pride to take money from my parents and girlfriend!
The number of unemployed pilots at CTC alone is increasing every month, and I cant imagine how the newly graduated pilots feel as they are further down the pecking order i.e good-ish news for me as I should be the next batch to secure employment....so they say!
I seriously do not understand why CTC continue to recruit as that would mean the list of unemployed pilots will be well...endless!!! 16-20 recruited every month yet there are still FAR FAR too many pilots in the holding pool. thats over 200 pilots per year from CTC alone!! dont forget the numerous companies in europe alone that train pilots! god knows how many there are in total! keep in mind that airlines do no purchase 50-100 boeings per year, they make 1 bulk buy and thats them good for the next 5-10 years!
i suppose people who work for CTC do have a family to feed and bills to pay! if only they would think of the consequences and the effects it has on us, the passionate pilots who only ever wanted to do something they love! dont get me wrong i appreciate all the support CTC has provided me and must say it is probably second to none but maybe they could warn people that alot of pilots who graduated are unemployed. if you ask them during your interview, or even check online they state that "since the company was founded to this date, all pilots have secured employment" I guess I should have known these statements were fiction as they also state that their CTC Wings Cadet Programme is a "sponsored route"...
anyway i thought id give you guys and girls an insight to the life of a graduated pilot...its not all high and fly! feels more like im trying to pay off loan sharks if im being honest...cant blame anyone but myself! if only someone had given me the advice im offering you guys. if you still want to apply now though, by all means go ahead, just hope to god there is not another 9/11, recession period and that instead of investing in football clubs, people start investing in airlines!!
and for those of you who have just recently joined as its too late to go back...good luck and i wish you all the best. believe me I know what you guys will go through. they always seem to be looking for new staff at the bar where im currently at!
Regards,
Jason
officially a qualified commercial pilot....but its not all happy days, but i guess thats just reality. well recession has sure had a detremental effect to the aviation injustry, right now at an educated guess well over 50% of the qualified pilots are unemployed, me being one of many. Fair enough, many people are unemployed in the UK at the moment due to the economic downturn, but the 100k debt im in isnt funny business! Im working 5 days a week, 9 to 5 a technician, as well as a part time job in a bar doing nightshifts just to be able to pay the bank from reposessing my parents house. I have also had to resort to moving back in with the parents as I cannot afford to pay the rent and am contemplating on selling my beloved vw golf. when i first joined CTC my initial reaction to the debt was, no worries once im earning as a pilot ill pay it off, take it each day as it comes.....HOW WRONG WAS I!!
CTC does not guarantee employment, and i cannot blame them for recession now can i?! it was my own risk, a chance i wanted to take to do something i loved, but life is not a dream and in reality there are things called "pay back the monthly installments of your loan or your family will live on the streets" and there's the other option "share a cell with a man who calls himself betty and likes to look at you while you're sleeping" so remember that whether you secure employment as a pilot or not, the loans have to be repaid...at 1k per month! the bank doesnt care you're not working! so my golden advice is if you are really wanting to persue a career as a pilot, learn how to count cards and win yourself around 80k from the casino, or if you have a rich father...start doing his ironing for him and make sure u wash his porsche every sunday. but not all of us can count cards or come from wealthy backgrounds rite?
so my strong advice (i sure wish someone had told me before I got myself in such a financial pickle) is to wait for the economy to come out of this slump, which can be anything from three to four years so ive been told by a friend of mine who is a financial advisor, and to apply then. that way once you graduate the economy will have had two years to really get itself going and employment will be...well hopefully...plentiful
look at it this way, although you may become a qualified commercial pilot later, the 100k debt is inevitable, and why not seek employment now and save up say....25k over these three/four years and be able to use that and pay towards the course. that way your bank loan is alot less and believe it or not will save you thousands in interest!! I sure wish I had followed that path! or you could do it my way, end up in an astounishing amount of debt, with little hope of securing employment as a pilot within the next 6 months and no flat, no car and too much pride to take money from my parents and girlfriend!The number of unemployed pilots at CTC alone is increasing every month, and I cant imagine how the newly graduated pilots feel as they are further down the pecking order i.e good-ish news for me as I should be the next batch to secure employment....so they say!
I seriously do not understand why CTC continue to recruit as that would mean the list of unemployed pilots will be well...endless!!! 16-20 recruited every month yet there are still FAR FAR too many pilots in the holding pool. thats over 200 pilots per year from CTC alone!! dont forget the numerous companies in europe alone that train pilots! god knows how many there are in total! keep in mind that airlines do no purchase 50-100 boeings per year, they make 1 bulk buy and thats them good for the next 5-10 years!i suppose people who work for CTC do have a family to feed and bills to pay! if only they would think of the consequences and the effects it has on us, the passionate pilots who only ever wanted to do something they love! dont get me wrong i appreciate all the support CTC has provided me and must say it is probably second to none but maybe they could warn people that alot of pilots who graduated are unemployed. if you ask them during your interview, or even check online they state that "since the company was founded to this date, all pilots have secured employment" I guess I should have known these statements were fiction as they also state that their CTC Wings Cadet Programme is a "sponsored route"...
anyway i thought id give you guys and girls an insight to the life of a graduated pilot...its not all high and fly! feels more like im trying to pay off loan sharks if im being honest...cant blame anyone but myself! if only someone had given me the advice im offering you guys. if you still want to apply now though, by all means go ahead, just hope to god there is not another 9/11, recession period and that instead of investing in football clubs, people start investing in airlines!!
and for those of you who have just recently joined as its too late to go back...good luck and i wish you all the best. believe me I know what you guys will go through. they always seem to be looking for new staff at the bar where im currently at!
Regards,
Jason