alpha.charlie

What 100% record?!


.......and for that matter.....what reputation?!

Ollie23

haha maybe in the good old days, but things are a bit different now.

Paperplanes89

2% pass rate? For all I know it could be true but it seems a little low, afterall pass rate for the BA FPP was 1/40 and that included the 2/3's they got rid of at the application stage!

Ollie23

True they won't take anyone, but lets face it the maths test is not exactly rocket science. Any semi competent person who does their research on the type of questions and then practices can easily pass. Even then they let you do it again anyway having seen what the questions are like so you can make sure you don't fail again!!

transcendental

The CTC Maths test is farcical. It's below GCSE level mental arithmetic.

The fact that someone on here failed it and was allowed a resit, then goes on to say that "CTC doesn't let just anyone in," is a statement lacking credibility.

To put this into a wider context, though, the BA DEP test battery of verbal reasoning, maths and capacity test were no harder, a bit harder, the same respectively.

In real world context of practically flying a jet on the line, with a fully working FMGC and a calculator in your bag, I will happily and honestly admit to requiring no greater abilities than using my 1 to 10 times tables (3 in particular), a bit of rounding, subtraction, addition and very coarse division.

This illustrates a serious problem of self-perception amongst wannabes and newbies.

The skills and abilities to be a commercial pilot are neither particularly special nor do they set you apart from the rest of humanity, thereby giving you some reason to blow sunshine up your own arses and think the world, the training school or any airline owes you jack **** at the end.

Pilots I fly with are not stupid people (but I only fly with Captains, the majority of whom did not come through the CTC-esque route). In this game now, the primary thing required is access to cash to fund your chosen route to license and beyond. Anyone can get the cash, if they want it badly enough. Anyone.

The entire assessment process for CTC, FTE, OAA, BA ad others are laid bare on this forum and others, effectively enabling people to conduct the most focussed form of preparation possible. It couldn't be much easier.

Still, people fail CTC selection and experienced pilots fail BA DEP selection at paper, interview and sim stage. There are a lot of reasons why.

In my opinion, one major thing that sets pilots apart from others is the will to accept the responsibility. Another is the base level ability to absorb information through all senses, scan, process and act on it. This can be massively improved with practice, but we all know people who can barely drive a car, don't we?

The ATPL exams can be completely cheated because the system is corrupted by practically first principles. Those exams are not a barrier to entry.

The truth about where you are going with these schools is also out there, for all to see. Train with CTC now and you are training to be a contract pilot on Flexicrew, one of the ****test contracts in the flying world. If anything else, such as Qatar, comes up when you are in the hold pool, that's luck not skill that gets you a go at that chance. That's the minority case.

Following this route now, into the right hand seat under Flexicrew contracts is literally destroying the present and future state of the job of commercial airline pilot. Not just in easyJet, but in BA and anyone who competes with eJ. Ryanair did it first, now eJ, and BA are on the way, starting with their FPP Cadet scheme, which is the SAME as CTC Wings for eJ used to be, with all the same risks.

What you are entering is not a profession. Remember that when you start on a Flexicrew contract, before you start whining to the Captain. At best, it's now a vocation, except what other vocation will have you possibly bankrupt at the end of the training period, or still possibly in that position while you're doing the job?

There are significant numbers of pilots in eJ now who cannot afford to pay their loan, their rent, their bills, get to work and buy food. These people are jointly responsible for 160 lives and they are being treated worse than monkeys, and they are trapped in debt, partly through their original choices, and that debt situation is exploited by CTC and eJ for their own profit gains.

They won't be sacked because the zero hour contract makes that unnecessary even if the airline's overcrewed by 30%. Because they have a contract, they can't claim the dole. Not sure if they can claim any other form of income support, but the fact that I am telling you about airline pilots and income support in the same paragraph should tell you what you need to know.

paulweller84

Hi, new here! Can anyone clear something up for me - on the CTC website it states the bond can be secured against a property, but would you have to actually have the cost of the bond paid off on the mortgage? I have only owned my house for 2 years and am 'slightly' off owning £70,000 odd of my house!

Bealzebub

Paul,

It isn't quite that simple. The bond has to be lodged (paid) in instalments. It is paid in cash. The cash may be raised by a commercial secured loan. These loans are in effect by way of a second mortgage (if there already is a first one.) Once the new loan is added to the existing one, the total sum shouldn't normally exceed 60% of the value of the property.

For example if you have a property worth £250,000 with an existing mortgage of £80,000, then the maximum sum that could usually be advanced would be around £70,000 (based on the 60% equity ceiling.) If you already owed £150,000, then that property would not provide security or be acceptable for this type of loan. It would also require that you could afford the new combined loan by way of normal lending criteria restrictions.

Where this isn't possible, a guarantor may be able to provide the necessary surity, however they would assume all the same risks.

BerksFlyer

Great post transcendental.

Putting things into context though, very few jobs require a high level of natural ability and there are many many people (perhaps the majority outside of graduates) who lack even the most basic numerical and verbal abilities. But I do agree with your sentiment regarding 'pilot assessment' type tests.

transcendental

StevieW - a standard student loan is not 84K plus foundation, plus living costs, plus Type Rating. A standard student loan is not pushing 120k.

A student loan doesn't necessarily rule out buying a house for the duration of the pay back.

A student loan does not have to be secured.

Pilot training should attract a student status and all the things that go with it.

Your observation about 700 hours a year is not standing the test of time at present. I know of plenty of people getting 8, 15, 20, 30, 45 hours in a month for the last three months.

When you look at the take home pay that equates to, then compare that to minimum living costs you are looking at a deficit.

Going one month into arrears on a loan that's about 1250 a month in repayments means you need to find double the amount next month. Try doing that if you get two months at 30 hours a piece.

You really need to be getting minimum 50 hours a month to break even and that;s with a very low rent and doing very little in your spare time. This is not being achieved consistently by plenty of people this winter.

The so-called winter hours protection of 30 hours a month does not help. You have to wait three months before that pay out is made good, and then it's only a retrospective top up to 100 hours over three months. The damage done to you in the three months is not fixed with the retrospective payment.

I think you are naive to try to defend Flexicrew. If you look at what is happening now and project forwards, it's not a good outlook.

Flexicrew is being used to radically undermine the pilot employment landscape. It is dividing pilots over what is inherently a safety critical issue. It is allowing a small minority of people to profiteer off the backs of trainee and low hour pilots.

Ollie23

Yes excellent post indeed.

I don't check this thread often but I've just read transcendental's other post on page 198 of this thread. It is without doubt the most valuable contribution to this whole thread (and I trawled through the whole lot whilst preparing for the selection).

It should be made a sticky and read by anyone contemplating this course.

paulweller84

Ollie23, thanks for pointing me in the direction of that post. Great reading.

As much as I have great interest for this career, I cannot contemplate risking my home for it when CTC operate the way they appear to.

My fiancee and I have a lovely home and I do a job I enjoy (most of the time) that has career progression prospects and my quality of life is great, does anyone else think it would it be a silly move to risk it all and sign up for the cadet program?

I deliberately didn't get my hopes up before going head first into this, I was prepared to uncover the stories that would 'put the brakes on.'

BlackandBrown

Make your own decision Paul.

I can't argue with one word transcendental says - he or she has said it all exactly as it is.

alpha.charlie

Virgin Atlantic, American Airlines and NASA are also apparently coming soon!

transcendental

I will spell this out as best I can, again.

The thing any wannabe trainee has got to get over first is... themselves. It is your own notion of what you are walking into that is the first and biggest weakness.

In hindsight, my knowledge was majorly lacking. It is through pure luck that I did not go bankrupt (although now I wish I had, at the right time, before the law tightened up), and it is through relative luck of timing that I got off the contracting and got other options in flying, other than Flexicrew. It was also my hardline choice to not trust my airline's vague promise of what might happen tomorrow and instead simply take what was on the table that has given me a better position than Flexicrew. Plenty of others have gone the other way and they are really paying the price.

You simply cannot believe whatever CTC tell you about the future, if you are a trainee.

Firstly, they are in a 5 year deal with eJ to supply pilots on Flexicrew. They make a massive amount of money out of you being on Flexicrew, in addition to the profit they make from your training. That is a total vested interested, making them the absolute opposite of an impartial party. Your debt slavery is a direct financial benefit to their bottom line. Their bottom line keeps them in jobs, cash, cars and houses.

Second, CTC will negotiate with anyone to take their cadets. They tried it with Ryanair, who were never really interested, probably because they weren't willing to pay another supplier for TRs. Ryanair have nicely stitched up their own supply of 73 drivers, why let some other chisellers in on the action? "Partner" airlines are just airlines, willing to take cadets on whatever terms suit, primarily, the airline.

Understand the power and money relationship: CTC Cadets, provided they are trained inside the profit envelope, should generate some profit and a lot of cash flow into CTC. Sitting in the holdpool should not lose CTC money. Going to an airline on non-Flexi terms will bag CTC at least a headhunt fee = more profit. Going to eJ on Flexicrew will generate a 3 year revenue stream per cadet for CTC, which rapidly goes into the black well inside the first 8 months of your line operations, and stays black at your expense for the duration of your three years of uncertain exploitation.

CTC has no real power when it comes to calling shots in a negotiation with an airline. On what basis would it?

It's not good enough to say "Oh, the ME will always provide a get out clause." No it won't. What will happen in that region over the next five years? No one knows. Who knew Iran would threaten to close Hormuz? You're an idiot if you make statements like that. Anyway, the ME carriers are mainly not used to taking cadets. Qatar is just trying it now. Admittedly on actually good terms, but how long till their supply contract is changed and they wise up to the possibilities of Flexicrew. Think the ME has employment and labour laws even approaching Western Europe? These places are not democracies, for goodness sake. And how many years in total will it take you to be in a position to apply for a job with a big ME carrier who wants about 2500 hours P2? Enough for you to need to get out of the UK and away from your own ****ty credit rating, possibly.

To PaulWeller84: If you are content, why risk all that good stuff in your life to live a life of uncertainty, huge debt, and when you finally make it, working hours uncertainty and major exposure to recession, which is what Western Europe is basically in. Make your own choice, but once CTC have got your money you aren't getting it back, not from them. And the only way to get that money back is to work it back in a plane. There's a lot between you and that seat. It could ultimately cost you your relationship and your house, and your old career. Never mind 120k, for you the total cost picture is far, far higher. It was for me.

greywind

I thought it was Virgin Galactic not Virgin Atlantic

transcendental

StevieW - to support your POV please can you tell me and the other readers what your current position is and what your route was?

Also, what, in detail do you see as the drivers for CTC and easyJet to improve or change anything to do with their training and recruitment strategies? What do you see as the forces in play?

An opinion is one thing. The ability to qualify that opinion is quite another.

veetwo

The big problem with this statement is that it can be used to defend just about any mutation of the 'deal' for cadets in the future. In 5 years when ryanair are offering unpaid internships for 12 months will it be acceptable because "it gets low hours pilots into the right hand seat?"

Getting in to the RHS of a commercial passenger aircraft is clearly the ambition of most low houred pilots. And why wouldn't it be - no one spends £100k to fly twins around Africa for 5 years 'paying their dues'. But clearly if people continue to flock to places like CTC in their droves, the deal with only ever get worse, not better. It just simple supply and demand at the end of the day.

I'm with transcendental on this one. There will never, ever be a shortage of cadets and therefore never any reason to improve the deal on offer.

Bealzebub

All good , valid and honest viewpoints. However to add to the mix, it should be remembered that the training organisation is expected to talk up the market. Your financial advisor will, Your estate agent will, the lady or gentleman in the car showroom will, the government will.

As SW says: That doesn't in any way negate the necessity to be cautious, prudent, and realistic, but it is something of a moot point to suggest that: They will give you a projection that best suits their sales aspirations, but so will anybody else.

Profit and cashflow are the lifeblood and survival of any company. It doesn't matter whether you are an airline, a training school, or any other commercial business. Run out of cash, and the game ends! Flexicrew and similar arrangements may be less than ideal, but keep in mind that the marketplace for pilots (and particularly ab-initio pilots) over the last few years has been almost completely arid. Despite this, placements and work has been sought wherever it could be found, and this likely involved serious compromise and negotiation to keep any sort of flow going.

Look at the reality of what has happened, and what continues to happen. Airlines are retrenching deeply in certain sections of the market. Others are transforming their business models in order to adapt to survive. Others have been defeated and in turn placed thousands of very experienced pilots into this moribund market. It is true that there are regional pockets of expansion that provide some relief to this oversupply, but make no mistake things are very difficult in the wider market.

It is fortunate in some respects, that as part of many airlines cost saving plans, there has been some visible expansion in the ab-initio cadet end of the market. For some time now the infrastructure to faciliate this has been growing, with significant new investment. If you look at some of my comments here a couple of years ago, I was making this very point.

There is no denying, that training generally, and this type of training specifically, is eye wateringly expensive. Airline placements that dovetail off the back of a full time 200 hour course are a privilege, and an extremely fortunate opportunity for the relatively lucky few. They are part of a difficult apprenticeship, and any rewards need to be viewed in context. As with many other professions, such apprenticeships, placements, and internships, may involve saddling the individual with large debts, no guarantees, insecurity of tenure, and the realisation of all the risks that should have been evident at onset.

When times are good, it is to be hoped that full time contracts of employment will themselves dovetail from these placements, however the current reality is more likely to involve seasonal or part time or piecework contracts, as that reflects what many airlines currently seek as part of their own survival strategy.

Despite the very poor markets of the last few years, and accepting that near term future realities may well make it a short lived "blip," I am currently seeing good things in the cadet output from this training school. Interesting placements are coming from quality airlines in the Middle East and Far East. There has been some ressurgence of good placements in the UK. For cadets who joined CTC in the last 20 months You would likely find many who could indeed believe what they were told at onset, because timing and luck has combined with the usual aspects, to give their own experience a very different flavour.

Erwan

Are there some people who are going to be in the CP96?
I'm in, so feel free to contact me via pm.

transcendental

The outsourcing of flight training by all airlines represents the major structural remodelling of pilot cost model.

In the current model, of which CTC are a key part, airlines make near zero investment in pilots.

Airlines do not spend anything up to the point that a CTC cadet sits in a flightdeck.

Prior to this point, almost every single cost is borne totally by the cadet, and all the risks attached to that cost are also borne by the cadet.

Under the current CTC TR arrangement, the TR funding is the only time "price" is shared between the cadet and CTC.

The cadet fronts minimum 8.2K towards the price of the type rating. In terms of actual cost, this is close to half the actual cost. The price is whatever the provider sets, and in this regard CTC is extremely expensive compared to what else is available in the open market. Cadets do not have access to the open market if they wish to enter via the Flexicrew route because that route is stitched up. CTC commence TR training with this payment in hand and with the remainder of the cost borne by them in the form of a deferred income once the pilot goes to the line with eJ. Then, CTC takes all the money it is paid by eJ for the cadets line hours and keeps it. In actual fact, eJ pays CTC for every single line hour from zero that the cadet does. CTC keeps all the money, and only releases a fixed 1200 per month to the cadet for 8 months. In my case, CTC kept nearly 30k out of my pocket. In addition, they are also paid fees by eJ as payment for their part as an agency. They keep this as well. This means their income in the first 8 months, in my case was well in excess of 30k. Therefore, over 8 months they made my 8.2K + over 30K. I received 9600.

After the first 8 months of line training, provided the cadet is above 500 hours line flying, they get paid 43 per block hour. Essentially you're not paid anything until you push back and stop getting paid when you get back on blocks. You are not paid anything for your briefing hour before off blocks, the 30 minutes of duty after on-blocks, no pay for turnarounds, and any time on the ground i.e. any form of delay is unpaid.

An eJ pilot's actual duty hours are just over double their flying hours. So in a 900 hour year, you are doing about 1800 duty hours. Therefore, in actual fact you are not being paid 43 an hour. You are really being paid 21.50/hour of time spent at work.

I know the rates easyJet pays to CTC and I know the rates CTC pay to its cadets. There's a big difference. Once you are on the line, contact with CTC is minimal. All they are then doing is running a payroll, and boy are they milking you for it.

Vague clauses covering certain situations to do with roster changes, standbys and a few other scenarios are exploited by the airline to minimise what it needs to pay, and CTC do next to nothing to stand up for the cadets on this matter.

The only "investment" eJ are making to a cadet pilot on the line is the cost of having Training Captains in the LHS during your first 34 - 48 line sectors. This is not really a particular investment. It is actually just turning over the Training Captain asset base that the airline already maintains. It is not actually spending any more money on just the cadet. Cadets are conducting their line training on revenue generating flights. The training is done in a profit-generating environment.

So, you see, the notion of "investment", or expenditure, by the airline is practically zero. This is by deliberate design. The training system you enter with CTC has been designed by them and the airlines specifically to:

Manage risk away from the airline and the training organisation, and place it solely on the trainee.
Manage cost out of the airline's books, and place it solely on the trainee.
Minimise any contractual commitments the airline has by ensuring that cadets are never actually airline employees. This way the airline circumvents tax, National Insurance, employment law and any costs of having a permanent employee.
Reduce to zero the level of commitment the airline has to any individual cadet pilot. The airline is simply buying a block hour. The individual is made practically irrelevant in this exercise.

As a pilot, it is your responsibility to report fit for duty. Sickness or fatigue should prevent you from flying. Now, because of these contracts and training model, pilots face the conflict between doing the right thing i.e. reporting sick or fatigued, and turning up to work unfit because they need the money that badly. This is happening in this airline. This is happening because there is a rotten culture and system that is simply, unfairly and irresponsibly loading too much risk and too much cost on to the shoulders of the individual. The Human Factors book will need some updating very soon.

Also, this airline is pressurising pilots to tow the line by essentially bullying pilots. People are afraid of reporting fatigued because to do so requires the completion of a fatigue report. They are afraid that if they fill in these reports, it will count against them if and when they get a chance to apply for a permanent contract. I know of at least three instances of people being contacted and told "if you don't do what we are telling you: it will count against you when applying for a permanent job; will have your permanent job offer rescinded.". There are more examples than this, but these I know of directly. Three such cases are three too many in a safety critical organisation. CTC is also complicit in this as more than once they have passed these messages along to the cadets.

So, if you bear all of the above in mind, you will see why I fundamentally disagree with the statement by a wannabe trainee that "Flexicrew was ideal" for cadets. It's not. Flexicrew, and the training model before it is not ideal for anyone other than the airline and the FTO. Its fundamental principle of outsourced, profit-generating training with near zero investment from the airline and near zero protections for the cadets is ethically corrupt, is designed and used in ways that undermine safety in this industry, and is totally exploitative. Both the airline and CTC, when challenged, both rely on the statement that "The cadet knew what they were signing up to and they signed the contract.". Even this is a misrepresentation because you can never know how everything in the contract is actually going to work or be used in practice until it's too late. That excuse is the kind used by people who lack the ability to defend their system by any other means.

Now, to understand what might change the status quo...

BALPA, the pilots' union, has known in detail about the CTC arrangement for in excess of two years. In that time, they have taken a total of zero action. Cadets are in BALPA, and do take issues to BALPA, but because the union is not recognised by CTC and currently has no plans to seek recognition, both eJ and CTC are totally able to ignore BALPA.

The Flexicrew cadets are either too apathetic or afraid of working together and standing up for themselves directly to CTC for better terms and conditions.

CTC have not issued any pay rises to cadets for three years. In fact they and the airline cut the total pay a cadet received in the first 8 months, as this used to be 1000 a month plus sector pay.Now it's just 1200 a month. that's around a 4-500 difference.

Also, bear in mind that the entire time you are on a Flexicrew contract, you are on a random roster. You don't know what you are doing next month until the 17th of the month before. This makes planning anything outside of that window totally impossible. BALPA currently states that it doesn't think any pilot should be on this type of roster for more than 3 months. Flexicrew will have you on this for 3 years. With rumoured changes to the contract, there's a possibility people could find themselves on random roster for 5 years, and after that it's unknown what would be offered by the company.

Right now, in the last 18 months, the choices have been CTC Flexicrew then trying for an eJ permanent continental contract. A lot of people have not applied for these contracts because they don't want to leave the UK and they continue to hold out hope that the company will start offering UK contracts which is unlikely IMO. 3 people created their own opportunities at Monarch. When they resigned from eJ, CTC tried to sting them for the contracted bond, despite the fact that in reality, CTC had already made back more than its money for the TR from the money it kept from the cadets. Those cadets took legal advice and the bond amount was reduced with legal negotiation. Once they opened a pathway to Monarch, CTC managed to get about 8 more cadets in to Monarch on the traditional payment arrangement i.e. the airline covered the TR and the cadets went on reduced salary. Just recently, about 20 hold pool cadets have been assessed by Qatar for a decent deal in Abu Dhabi, bonded for three years. TR covered, money tax free. I've just covered a total of 31 cadets. The rest are Flexislaves. That's pushing 250+ CTC cadets.

The likelihood is that you are training for this scheme, with all the stuff I mention.

I know how this system works. I know what problems it is creating. I know what the union's position is on this, and there basically isn't one. There's no one coming to save the day here. This is the employment landscape.

I am not a newbie who wants to enter the training system, trying to find ways to convince myself that I am going to do it. It makes little practical difference to me whether you enter this system now or not, because I am not directly dependent on what is happening below me in the food chain.

If you enter this system, you will come out the other end desperate for anything anyone throws at you. If that happens to be a big **** sandwich, you will have to take a bite. And you'll have to keep eating it, until you can afford not to.

If you actually sit down and do the sums of income and expenditure, even on a BA FO starting salary or maximum 900 hours a year flexicrew pay, or an eJ continental FO contract, the debt repayments take a really, really big swedge, making your actual take home nowhere near as much at the headline salary rates would have you think. Meanwhile, the airline and the FTO rakes it in and will, if able, never ever give you a payrise. That's the game you are entering.