The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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I know of guys who was there on £1200 a month, got their 500 hours and left Monarch!
I doubt that would have been possible if Easy had paid their TR, but you should be in better position than me to know this. But it does not fit with the rest of the business model, of giving people summer contracts only!
I doubt that would have been possible if Easy had paid their TR, but you should be in better position than me to know this. But it does not fit with the rest of the business model, of giving people summer contracts only!
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Yes this is what I had heard too, Bealzebub claimed that Easy had paid the TR fully, which I doubt very much.
"The ones who came and worked for us had their type ratings paid for."
As you seem to know, if they come on the flexi crew, and if they only do the 6 - 8 months, what happens during those "dead months"?
Do Easy than make sure they get a few hours every now and than during the slow months, to make sure the flexi crew are "tied up" to them?
So they just can't walk away after 8 months, if they are offered no further flying during the slow periods of the season?
Do they have a minimum guarantee during these slow periods/months?
"The ones who came and worked for us had their type ratings paid for."
As you seem to know, if they come on the flexi crew, and if they only do the 6 - 8 months, what happens during those "dead months"?
Do Easy than make sure they get a few hours every now and than during the slow months, to make sure the flexi crew are "tied up" to them?
So they just can't walk away after 8 months, if they are offered no further flying during the slow periods of the season?
Do they have a minimum guarantee during these slow periods/months?
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Yes this is what I had heard too, Bealzebub claimed that Easy had paid the TR fully, which I doubt very much.
Now this is an aspect shared also with other companies, they want pilots to pay their own TR, and come and work with them for 6 - 8 months during the summer, and than see what happens!
The reply was:
The ones who came and worked for us had their type ratings paid for. They accrued around 500 hours on type during their 6-8 month placement, during which time they received around £2000 a month and at the end of it they were offered full time employment contracts....Tragic!
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So who paid their TR than?
Did easy pay the full TR just for the 6 - 8 months placement?
I assume placement did not assume from the outset permanent contracts!
Did easy pay the full TR just for the 6 - 8 months placement?
I assume placement did not assume from the outset permanent contracts!
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The placement airlines paid for them. Placement from the outset did not guarantee anything (whatever might have been assumed,) but the result was the offer of full time contracts. Obviously for the candidates this is the best possible result. The airline gets what it wants. The candidates get what they want. The FTO gets what they want.
easyjet is a different company with their own requirements. There are a number of pilots who are moving from there to companies now offering better terms and conditions. That is an option available to some of them, and that is their choice.
The FTO, in an ideal world, would want to see all of their succesful graduates move on to airline placements with the partner airlines. It would want to see those pilots achieve full time contracts at the end of their placements. This is their primary business model. Unfortunetaly it is not an ideal world, and given the obvious economic realities of the last five years, they have had to adapt their business model in order to keep some throughput in this market.
This adaption of the business model is also what many of their partner airlines (and many who are not partners) have also done to ensure survival.
In some cases the results have been far from ideal, but they were very likely the best that could be achieved in what has proved to be an incredibly difficult marketplace.
This same period has seen a backlog (holding pools) of graduates for whom placements cannot be seamlessly found. easyjet provided a relief valve for this backlog since they were one of the very few companies expanding in this market. Nevertheless that relief came at a price. With almost monopoly demand during this period, they could (and did) adjust the terms and conditions to suit their own market position. The option was (presumably) to simply say no, and buy on the open market. That would have been experienced pilots on whatever T&C's that market would stand. Some people would undoubtably have preferrred that, however a deal was achieved that clearly was a compromise for all parties, but nevertheless served to keep this route open through difficult times.
As more buyers (airlines) come back into the marketplace, so the T&C's on offer become more varied, and options become less limited. Guarantees, promises, and certainty, just doesn't exist I am afraid. It not only doesn't, it never has! There is a large element of risk. That risk needs to be understood by anybody considering assuming it.
easyjet is a different company with their own requirements. There are a number of pilots who are moving from there to companies now offering better terms and conditions. That is an option available to some of them, and that is their choice.
The FTO, in an ideal world, would want to see all of their succesful graduates move on to airline placements with the partner airlines. It would want to see those pilots achieve full time contracts at the end of their placements. This is their primary business model. Unfortunetaly it is not an ideal world, and given the obvious economic realities of the last five years, they have had to adapt their business model in order to keep some throughput in this market.
This adaption of the business model is also what many of their partner airlines (and many who are not partners) have also done to ensure survival.
In some cases the results have been far from ideal, but they were very likely the best that could be achieved in what has proved to be an incredibly difficult marketplace.
This same period has seen a backlog (holding pools) of graduates for whom placements cannot be seamlessly found. easyjet provided a relief valve for this backlog since they were one of the very few companies expanding in this market. Nevertheless that relief came at a price. With almost monopoly demand during this period, they could (and did) adjust the terms and conditions to suit their own market position. The option was (presumably) to simply say no, and buy on the open market. That would have been experienced pilots on whatever T&C's that market would stand. Some people would undoubtably have preferrred that, however a deal was achieved that clearly was a compromise for all parties, but nevertheless served to keep this route open through difficult times.
As more buyers (airlines) come back into the marketplace, so the T&C's on offer become more varied, and options become less limited. Guarantees, promises, and certainty, just doesn't exist I am afraid. It not only doesn't, it never has! There is a large element of risk. That risk needs to be understood by anybody considering assuming it.
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I do agree that if TR is fully paid, the risks are in favour of the candidate. However I have also seen companies recently offering 6 - 8 months job, expecting the candidate to pay his own TR, and with no more promise than these initial 6 - 8 months.
For me this is a risky business, and I would think anyone considering it should consider these offers carefully. However as an example the CTC/Easyjet option, is not for everyone, as it does come with an extremely hefty entrance "ticket" price!
It does make it a little bit like a private "exclusive club", this is something that I personally do not like!
Yes sure you need to pass certain entry tests etc., but end of the day, money is what opens the door! This strategy is not necessary the best way forward.
In my opinion, the modular route into Ryanair is a far better economical route for the pilot, however it is a bit more uncertain, it does give the airline a large control over who they contract, and it does give a wider spectre of pilots a chance!
I have to admit, I have seen to many freshly ME/IR pilots, with rose tinted glasses, who have not really researched what they have let themselves into!
For me this is a risky business, and I would think anyone considering it should consider these offers carefully. However as an example the CTC/Easyjet option, is not for everyone, as it does come with an extremely hefty entrance "ticket" price!
It does make it a little bit like a private "exclusive club", this is something that I personally do not like!
Yes sure you need to pass certain entry tests etc., but end of the day, money is what opens the door! This strategy is not necessary the best way forward.
In my opinion, the modular route into Ryanair is a far better economical route for the pilot, however it is a bit more uncertain, it does give the airline a large control over who they contract, and it does give a wider spectre of pilots a chance!
I have to admit, I have seen to many freshly ME/IR pilots, with rose tinted glasses, who have not really researched what they have let themselves into!
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Well I'm not going to sit and read through all of the previous 4200+ posts so I don't know what the general feeling to CTC is these days. I hope it's not like it used to be...
But anyone reading this here is my advice.
Do not go to to CTC.
Go modular and get the same licence you would otherwise have for a fraction of the cost.
The CTC course promises so much and delivers nothing special. Having been taken in my CTC's crap myself I've still found myself flying Ryanair a few years later down the line - and much better off for it.
Don't go to CTC. Please.
EDIT: Funnily enough, I've just reiterated the previous poster, albeit with slightly less depth.
But anyone reading this here is my advice.
Do not go to to CTC.
Go modular and get the same licence you would otherwise have for a fraction of the cost.
The CTC course promises so much and delivers nothing special. Having been taken in my CTC's crap myself I've still found myself flying Ryanair a few years later down the line - and much better off for it.
Don't go to CTC. Please.
EDIT: Funnily enough, I've just reiterated the previous poster, albeit with slightly less depth.
Last edited by Locarno; 3rd Sep 2012 at 15:08.
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Given how long it is I doubt anyone actually trawls through the full content of this thread anymore, however one chap summed the whole thing up perfectly not too long ago;
If you are considering CTC read this;
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...ml#post6707903
As someone who has been through the mill I can assure you it will be a worthwhile read.
If you are considering CTC read this;
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...ml#post6707903
As someone who has been through the mill I can assure you it will be a worthwhile read.
Last edited by Ollie23; 4th Sep 2012 at 01:39. Reason: In fact, having just read it again, is there any way this can be made some sort of 'sticky' at the top so everyone who is considering CTC reads it?
Re: the above posters comments on making the transcendental post a sticky
I think that would be very unfair and one sided. He seems to be the fool, he says "Well, if I showed my contracts to any lawyer, they would all laugh at me for having ever signed it.", which was his choice, I think investing that amount of money and not running contracts passed the eyes of a professional would be very foolish indeed.
I felt that CTC never pressurised me into signing anything, when we received the initial offer pack which included the foundation course, basic and intermediate training contracts it stated we were required to sign and return them in a month. I didn't send mine back for nearly 3 months and there was no problem. I contacted them on a few occasions asking for clarification of certain clauses etc and they were quick to respond in writing. Obviously advanced training is dependent on whoever employs you at the end of the course (which will happen eventually if your performance is satisfactory).
Some of the points raised in transcendentals post were quite valid but it does read as that of someone who has had a rough time of it for one reason or another.
I felt that CTC never pressurised me into signing anything, when we received the initial offer pack which included the foundation course, basic and intermediate training contracts it stated we were required to sign and return them in a month. I didn't send mine back for nearly 3 months and there was no problem. I contacted them on a few occasions asking for clarification of certain clauses etc and they were quick to respond in writing. Obviously advanced training is dependent on whoever employs you at the end of the course (which will happen eventually if your performance is satisfactory).
Some of the points raised in transcendentals post were quite valid but it does read as that of someone who has had a rough time of it for one reason or another.
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Was pretty much spot on from my experience and I wouldn't say I had a rougher time of it than anyone else or have any personal axe to grind.
I think it serves as a much needed reality check that's all.
I think it serves as a much needed reality check that's all.
The post linked to above (by transcendental) is probably the most honest, reasonable, true-to-life account of CTC I've read on here. As an ex-cadet, I think that any guys thinking not just about the CTC schemes but about any flying training would do well to take heed.
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Duration....
Guys, how long is the full program with CTC? (AQC included)
I read here and there 14 months, 15, 16, 18....!
Is there any delay before beginning AQC or is it straight after IR?
I read here and there 14 months, 15, 16, 18....!
Is there any delay before beginning AQC or is it straight after IR?
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Well I'm not going to sit and read through all of the previous 4200+ posts so I don't know what the general feeling to CTC is these days. I hope it's not like it used to be...
But anyone reading this here is my advice.
Do not go to to CTC.
Go modular and get the same licence you would otherwise have for a fraction of the cost.
The CTC course promises so much and delivers nothing special. Having been taken in my CTC's crap myself I've still found myself flying Ryanair a few years later down the line - and much better off for it.
Don't go to CTC. Please.
EDIT: Funnily enough, I've just reiterated the previous poster, albeit with slightly less depth.
But anyone reading this here is my advice.
Do not go to to CTC.
Go modular and get the same licence you would otherwise have for a fraction of the cost.
The CTC course promises so much and delivers nothing special. Having been taken in my CTC's crap myself I've still found myself flying Ryanair a few years later down the line - and much better off for it.
Don't go to CTC. Please.
EDIT: Funnily enough, I've just reiterated the previous poster, albeit with slightly less depth.
This statistic ignores those who were dropped at various stages of training. From the first few training flights right upto line training with the airline. The proportion of failures has only increased with less of an emphasis on ability and more on whether you have the finances available (not to take anything away from those coming through the system now, still lots of decent people just an ever increasing trend in the wrong direction).
It also ignores those who were plain unlucky and fell ill or were injured. A number never finished the relevant stage of the course/ type rating and have been left high and dry.
Finally are we really saying that paying for your own type rating (which you do at easyJet no matter which way you try to spin it) and then working for 8 months for practically nothing before being dropped is a successful placement by CTC?
Honestly how they continue to maintain such a lie is embarrassing for anybody who's ever been involved with CTC. Myself included!
Rant over, in balance I found the course to be excellent (ignoring nursling) but it is what it is. An expensive zero to hero course with diminishing returns for those who make it all the way through. And its only going to get worse for those starting out now.
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It's really hard for me at this point to make a good decision. As I previously said I'm considering many options, one of which is CTC wings cadet, the alternative is OAA. I've also considered many other options but I've heard from many pilots that these two schools offer the best training and the best employment statistics.
OAA has many problems now, one of which is that it's been bought by CAE which has changed everything. I visited many times OAA and I've always saw a good environment, but when I went back in August there were many students unhappy with the management. One of which is waiting for a job for one and a half year and he's not the only one! The thing is that OAA keeps saying to have 100% employment rate (and we do know that it's not true). The cost is £89,000
, the positive fact is that they pay for extra training and skill tests retake.
I can't give an opinion about CTC, but I've read the whole thread and I don't have a good feeling about this flight training organization. It's however the most discussed since many students from CTC find a job in approximately six months time.
My reply is not aiming to confuse people on what to do but to receive as many opinions as possible by professional people.
I know that flexicrew is a bad contract but this is a situation from which, in my opinion, we cannot escape. Moreover while you are a flexicrew you don't earn very well. Salary is one of the aspects which I didn't look at first, but when you consider to borrow money and you don't have money to pay back here you understand the value of a good salary.
Thanks, and sorry for my english.
OAA has many problems now, one of which is that it's been bought by CAE which has changed everything. I visited many times OAA and I've always saw a good environment, but when I went back in August there were many students unhappy with the management. One of which is waiting for a job for one and a half year and he's not the only one! The thing is that OAA keeps saying to have 100% employment rate (and we do know that it's not true). The cost is £89,000
, the positive fact is that they pay for extra training and skill tests retake.I can't give an opinion about CTC, but I've read the whole thread and I don't have a good feeling about this flight training organization. It's however the most discussed since many students from CTC find a job in approximately six months time.
My reply is not aiming to confuse people on what to do but to receive as many opinions as possible by professional people.
I know that flexicrew is a bad contract but this is a situation from which, in my opinion, we cannot escape. Moreover while you are a flexicrew you don't earn very well. Salary is one of the aspects which I didn't look at first, but when you consider to borrow money and you don't have money to pay back here you understand the value of a good salary.
Thanks, and sorry for my english.
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It’s very true that there are lies, damned lies and then statistics, any statistic can be made to say anything that you want it to. 100% placement for CTC Wings cadets, try telling that to those who have been sat in holding pools since finishing their courses, unpaid waiting for placement with loan repayments approaching fast. Equally try telling the same thing to those that were placed for 8 months and were released, again now unpaid with loan repayments to service.
One thing to consider is that if you start today with CTC or OAA then you will qualify in about 18 months time, what will the recruitment/ placement situation be like then? If you know the answer to that one then please tell us, in the past Thomson have recruited their cadets from CTC but we are now hearing that the Company Council in Thomson have negotiated a deal where future cadet recruitment will be open to all with an MEIR regardless of where and how they trained. This is one less place for CTC to place their graduates, will other airlines that take CTC/ OAA cadets also employ a similar policy? Again no-one knows but an awful lot can change in the 18 months or so that you will be training and are you willing to gamble your property or the property of someone close to you to secure a loan for that gamble? It would seem like an insanely foolish risk to me, paradoxically pilots are supposed to be excellent decision makers who avoid risk but in order to qualify they have to make a huge risk and some very risky decisions.
Honestly CTC/OAA/FTE are great if you’re on a mentored scheme backed by an airline with the chance of a job at the end of it, otherwise in the current global financial and employment situation I would save my money.
By the way future-pilot, these comments are not just directed at you personally but at anyone considering their options and your English is very good.
One thing to consider is that if you start today with CTC or OAA then you will qualify in about 18 months time, what will the recruitment/ placement situation be like then? If you know the answer to that one then please tell us, in the past Thomson have recruited their cadets from CTC but we are now hearing that the Company Council in Thomson have negotiated a deal where future cadet recruitment will be open to all with an MEIR regardless of where and how they trained. This is one less place for CTC to place their graduates, will other airlines that take CTC/ OAA cadets also employ a similar policy? Again no-one knows but an awful lot can change in the 18 months or so that you will be training and are you willing to gamble your property or the property of someone close to you to secure a loan for that gamble? It would seem like an insanely foolish risk to me, paradoxically pilots are supposed to be excellent decision makers who avoid risk but in order to qualify they have to make a huge risk and some very risky decisions.
Honestly CTC/OAA/FTE are great if you’re on a mentored scheme backed by an airline with the chance of a job at the end of it, otherwise in the current global financial and employment situation I would save my money.
By the way future-pilot, these comments are not just directed at you personally but at anyone considering their options and your English is very good.
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From what I understand, Thomson are not cancelling their contract with CTC, just offering better conditions. At the end of the day, it is CTC that pays for the cadets' salary (actually, the cadet pays for his own salary, as it comes from the "security bond"). I don't think Thomson are interested in paying for a salary + pension + benefits (as they are now offering) + TR for a 8 months contract.
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My understanding is that the next time Thomson recruit low hrs cadets the application will be open to anyone with CPL MEIR and medical regardless of where they trained and whether they're integrated or modular. This is different from recent years when all low hrs cadets were CTC Wings graduates. By doing this Thomson have reduced the number of cadet places that used to be CTC only, of course CTC Wings graduates can apply but hopefully they'll be competing in open and fair competition with other integrated cadets from different schools and also modular graduates. The biggest selling point and major justification for the extra expense of n integrated school is that their graduates can get access to cadet schemes that their modular colleagues cannot get access to. The standard of training at an integrated school is no better (or worse) than at a modular school and you get exactly the same licence at the end of it. One less cadet scheme exclusively for integrated cadets levels the playing field for everyone else and erodes the biggest advanage of the integrated course. If other airlines follow Thomsons lead and open up cadet entry to integrated and modular fair competition there will come a time when integrated has no advantage (real or perceived) over modular and that will be a very dangeous time for the integrated schools who will have to rely more on their modular courses that they offer.