Atlas Polar
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Local 1224 President Letter to Atlas and Polar
Here is a letter from the Local 1224 President Dave Ross to the Atlas and Polar crewmembers on the recent NMB decision.
Also, he corrects some statements made in an earlier letter sent by ALPA President Prater.
http://atlasforteamsters.com/docs/Local_1224_letter.pdf
Also, he corrects some statements made in an earlier letter sent by ALPA President Prater.
http://atlasforteamsters.com/docs/Local_1224_letter.pdf
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 1st Oct 2008 at 23:39.
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Originally Posted by cruiserman
AAWH wants you to vote the Teamsters in, they hate spending good money and getting no results. JC1 started this movement and I suppose JC2 will continue the push. What better way to go around contractual commitments, than to just write your own labor contract and have your boys push it.
20 Years ALPA, Never be a Teamster
20 Years ALPA, Never be a Teamster
93+% of Atlas crewmembers say otherwise and are fed up with our level of representation under ALPA.
I would caution you in using the term "never", As they say never say never especially in this industry. By all accounts you have 90 days to come to grips with this transition or you will be free to live up to your promise of "never" being a Teamster.
I have personally been steam rolled by ALPA (twice I might add), I won't say never instead I will CHOOSE by my vote for IBT to not allow it again.
I want to address the topic of who Atlas would prefer to negotiate with in respect to representation issues?
Option A: Pilots who have attended a 2 week negotiating course with no formal education in legal matters? Pilots who have no formal education in/or experience arguing or pleading real legal cases? Pilots that allow ego to drive them to sit across the table from real attorneys as they attempt to negotiate with them matters that pertain to “our” livelihood? Would the company not want Pilots to attempt to debate subject matter beyond the scope of their formal profession i.e. flying airplanes literally outside the scope of their expertise and practice.
Option B: A hired professional negotiator and full-time staff attorney(s) with the support of dedicated office staff all backed by years of practice in aviation law and labor relations? Your/Our professional Negotiator, Attorney(s) and legal teams (provided by IBT) will be backed by formal negotiating experience in addition to being members of the bar. These same professionals will be steered by a pilot committee comprised of "subject matter experts" who provide the required insight into our day to day operations and it's specific details to insure proper language is included in any CBA or LOA. In addition the company would have to deal with any issues in respect to contractual or legal matters with these same individuals for the life of the contract/CBA or LOA in addition to representing all crewmembers in all matters as they relate to the company and governing entities?
Anyone who suggests that our interest are best left to Pilots negotiating with attorney's needs to read the following:
There is the old adage in criminal trials that describes a person who represents himself at trial: "He has a fool for a client."
Accordingly, attorneys maintain that they should handle all legal matters for their clients and that clients should not attempt to discharge legal matters on their own, no matter how simple. However, attorneys often do not heed their own advice. They will at times attempt to handle their own personal legal matters, which can result in some of the same problems confronted by non-professionals.
Competency
Often attorneys who represent themselves lack competency in the practice area.
Over the past 50 years, the practice of law has become exceedingly more complicated. Early in the 20th century, trial lawyers were capable of handling all litigation matters, whether they be criminal or civil. Many of the members of the Bar were sole practitioners in small law practices who handled all legal matters, from wills to criminal proceedings.
However, with the dawn of specialty litigation practices, such as anti-trust, securities and environmental, the generalist trial lawyer has been replaced by the specialist. Therefore, most practitioners when confronted by problems in their individual lives that are outside their practice area would be well served to engage an expert. For example, it is generally the case that an attorney engaged in a specialized practice such as employment law would be a poor family lawyer representing himself in his own divorce.
Similarly, while transactional matters were simple at one time, changes in the law, the enactment of voluminous regulations and the propagation of federal statutes that govern virtually every business or commercial transaction have made these matters the realm of experts.
Thus, even transactional lawyers, when handling a matter on their own behalf or for a partnership or business entity in which they're a stakeholder or member, should engage specialized assistance. Because of the specialized nature of most of their practices, transactional attorneys often do not have the experience necessary to represent themselves in matters outside their specialty areas.
For example, a securities attorney should probably not handle the legal documentation involved in the sale of his home. Perhaps, he would not understand the important distinctions between a general warranty deed and a special warranty deed or complex title issues. He could very easily make errors in the transaction adversely affecting him and his other partners.
Conflicts of interest
Issues involving conflicts of interest can become especially acute when an attorney represents a business entity in which he is also an investor.
Attorneys are routinely participants in investment partnerships, private businesses, banks, hospital districts and any number of commercial and not-for-profit businesses.
In instances in which these businesses or ventures may have multiple investors, lawyers should refrain from acting in a dual capacity as counsel as well as an investor. In many cases, professional liability insurance will exclude coverage for advice given by an attorney if he is acting in any role other than as a provider of legal advice.
Furthermore, many private company matters involving an attorney's advice to the board of directors or the attorney's partners may involve mixed issues of law and fact that would give the liability insurance company a basis for excluding coverage of any claims that arose out of that relationship on the theory that the attorney provided business advice not legal counsel.
In addition, the attorney's partners would be concerned when they approach the attorney for legal advice in a matter in which he is also involved as an investor. Are they truly getting the objective, disinterested advice of a legal adviser, or is the advice tempered by the fact the attorney has a commercial stake in the venture?
Consider the situation in which the attorney is giving advice to his partners in an insolvent business. Normally, in a situation involving the insolvency of a company, the legal adviser would advise the members of the board of directors that their duty has shifted from representing the interests of the stockholders to the creditors and that they risk personal liability if they ignore their responsibility to the creditors of the business. However, if the attorney is an equity holder in this business, he might not give strong advice to the board to consider liquidating the company to pay creditors because of a wish to preserve his investment in the enterprise.
Market terms
An attorney practicing outside his area of specialty is much less likely to understand the market in which he is operating and, consequently, is much more likely to misjudge what is acceptable in that market.
Practicing attorneys in a field, beyond the technical nuts and bolts of practicing law, develop expertise as to the customary and appropriate terms for a matter in a given instance, that is, what the particular market will allow.
Thus, an attorney who attempted to represent himself in a divorce might not understand the typical terms that a judge might accept in arrangements regarding custody of the couple's children. Or, if a wealthy plaintiff's lawyer became involved in a corporate transaction involving a preferred stock investment in a company, he would not understand the current reasonable and customary terms of the venture capital market (appropriate protection provisions, dividends that could be expected, and liquidation rights).
This knowledge beyond the four corners of the law would largely escape the attorney practicing outside his area of specialty.
Contacts
An attorney practicing outside his field would likely lack the contacts necessary to facilitate the swift, satisfactory completion of the matter. For instance, most commercial transactions involve the participation of third parties. Thus, an attorney trying to capitalize on a business idea that he may have identified should seek to engage attorneys that are familiar with the venture capital market place.
Access to the adviser's Rolodex would provide introduction to venture capital firms and financing firms that might not otherwise be available. Also, participation of attorneys who are experts and conversant in the area will expedite and comfort third party participants that the transaction has a valid base and has counsel competent in the particular area.
Charles D. Powell is a partner at Haynes and Boone LLP
Accordingly, attorneys maintain that they should handle all legal matters for their clients and that clients should not attempt to discharge legal matters on their own, no matter how simple. However, attorneys often do not heed their own advice. They will at times attempt to handle their own personal legal matters, which can result in some of the same problems confronted by non-professionals.
Competency
Often attorneys who represent themselves lack competency in the practice area.
Over the past 50 years, the practice of law has become exceedingly more complicated. Early in the 20th century, trial lawyers were capable of handling all litigation matters, whether they be criminal or civil. Many of the members of the Bar were sole practitioners in small law practices who handled all legal matters, from wills to criminal proceedings.
However, with the dawn of specialty litigation practices, such as anti-trust, securities and environmental, the generalist trial lawyer has been replaced by the specialist. Therefore, most practitioners when confronted by problems in their individual lives that are outside their practice area would be well served to engage an expert. For example, it is generally the case that an attorney engaged in a specialized practice such as employment law would be a poor family lawyer representing himself in his own divorce.
Similarly, while transactional matters were simple at one time, changes in the law, the enactment of voluminous regulations and the propagation of federal statutes that govern virtually every business or commercial transaction have made these matters the realm of experts.
Thus, even transactional lawyers, when handling a matter on their own behalf or for a partnership or business entity in which they're a stakeholder or member, should engage specialized assistance. Because of the specialized nature of most of their practices, transactional attorneys often do not have the experience necessary to represent themselves in matters outside their specialty areas.
For example, a securities attorney should probably not handle the legal documentation involved in the sale of his home. Perhaps, he would not understand the important distinctions between a general warranty deed and a special warranty deed or complex title issues. He could very easily make errors in the transaction adversely affecting him and his other partners.
Conflicts of interest
Issues involving conflicts of interest can become especially acute when an attorney represents a business entity in which he is also an investor.
Attorneys are routinely participants in investment partnerships, private businesses, banks, hospital districts and any number of commercial and not-for-profit businesses.
In instances in which these businesses or ventures may have multiple investors, lawyers should refrain from acting in a dual capacity as counsel as well as an investor. In many cases, professional liability insurance will exclude coverage for advice given by an attorney if he is acting in any role other than as a provider of legal advice.
Furthermore, many private company matters involving an attorney's advice to the board of directors or the attorney's partners may involve mixed issues of law and fact that would give the liability insurance company a basis for excluding coverage of any claims that arose out of that relationship on the theory that the attorney provided business advice not legal counsel.
In addition, the attorney's partners would be concerned when they approach the attorney for legal advice in a matter in which he is also involved as an investor. Are they truly getting the objective, disinterested advice of a legal adviser, or is the advice tempered by the fact the attorney has a commercial stake in the venture?
Consider the situation in which the attorney is giving advice to his partners in an insolvent business. Normally, in a situation involving the insolvency of a company, the legal adviser would advise the members of the board of directors that their duty has shifted from representing the interests of the stockholders to the creditors and that they risk personal liability if they ignore their responsibility to the creditors of the business. However, if the attorney is an equity holder in this business, he might not give strong advice to the board to consider liquidating the company to pay creditors because of a wish to preserve his investment in the enterprise.
Market terms
An attorney practicing outside his area of specialty is much less likely to understand the market in which he is operating and, consequently, is much more likely to misjudge what is acceptable in that market.
Practicing attorneys in a field, beyond the technical nuts and bolts of practicing law, develop expertise as to the customary and appropriate terms for a matter in a given instance, that is, what the particular market will allow.
Thus, an attorney who attempted to represent himself in a divorce might not understand the typical terms that a judge might accept in arrangements regarding custody of the couple's children. Or, if a wealthy plaintiff's lawyer became involved in a corporate transaction involving a preferred stock investment in a company, he would not understand the current reasonable and customary terms of the venture capital market (appropriate protection provisions, dividends that could be expected, and liquidation rights).
This knowledge beyond the four corners of the law would largely escape the attorney practicing outside his area of specialty.
Contacts
An attorney practicing outside his field would likely lack the contacts necessary to facilitate the swift, satisfactory completion of the matter. For instance, most commercial transactions involve the participation of third parties. Thus, an attorney trying to capitalize on a business idea that he may have identified should seek to engage attorneys that are familiar with the venture capital market place.
Access to the adviser's Rolodex would provide introduction to venture capital firms and financing firms that might not otherwise be available. Also, participation of attorneys who are experts and conversant in the area will expedite and comfort third party participants that the transaction has a valid base and has counsel competent in the particular area.
Charles D. Powell is a partner at Haynes and Boone LLP
DBW
Last edited by Deltabravowhiskey; 2nd Oct 2008 at 02:28.
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Teamsters and our future...
It won't be long now before The IBT is voted in. I'm sure of that. There is no apathy amongst the Atlas crews, only the desire to right a wrong, and not let history repeat itself.
The REAL work will be in electing the right guys( or gals ) to represent us. Then, we have to learn to trust our leaders again.
I believe that what the IBT will be, is what we collectively make of it. We will not be a little wheel in a big cog, thats hampered by rot. We have the unique opportunity to make a new beginning. We are going to need enthusiasm, volunteers, and most importantly, the desire to work together ( Atlas and Polar ).
The REAL work will be in electing the right guys( or gals ) to represent us. Then, we have to learn to trust our leaders again.
I believe that what the IBT will be, is what we collectively make of it. We will not be a little wheel in a big cog, thats hampered by rot. We have the unique opportunity to make a new beginning. We are going to need enthusiasm, volunteers, and most importantly, the desire to work together ( Atlas and Polar ).
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Haynes & Boone
These are the same low lifes that represented Kitty Hawk crewmembers when we were teamsters. We were royally screwed by them. It was like negative representation. Lawyers, no matter what union or organization they say they represent, are still lawyers. Most of them are not worth the ammo....
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I think you are talking about AIA being Teamsters. Kitty Hawk bought them and were non-Union and later during one of the downturns Connie bought them back or something like that a few years later with their Teamsters contract. More years later, the lone Kitty Hawk went ALPA and are belly up again. This time for good it looks like.
All that aside, lawyers are lawyers and you have to keep a tight reign on them. That is were your local leadership directs them and keeps a fire under their feet. Electing a solid leadership is a big player here. They seemed to have worked out for ABX looking at their contract on the "education" section of the http://atlasforteamsters.com site.
All that aside, lawyers are lawyers and you have to keep a tight reign on them. That is were your local leadership directs them and keeps a fire under their feet. Electing a solid leadership is a big player here. They seemed to have worked out for ABX looking at their contract on the "education" section of the http://atlasforteamsters.com site.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 3rd Oct 2008 at 01:28.
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Atlas-Polar
Alpa, or Teamsters? it does not matter who represents you! What it REALLY matters is the PEOPLE that represent you. What if Teamsters had your current MEC working for you? things would be exactly the same under a different name.
As an example who represents the Alas Europe pilots? NO ONE!, and yet they have better working conditions, better pay, no furloughs, downgrades etc at least that is was what I am gathering from reading this thread.
Make the right choice
Alpa, or Teamsters? it does not matter who represents you! What it REALLY matters is the PEOPLE that represent you. What if Teamsters had your current MEC working for you? things would be exactly the same under a different name.
As an example who represents the Alas Europe pilots? NO ONE!, and yet they have better working conditions, better pay, no furloughs, downgrades etc at least that is was what I am gathering from reading this thread.
Make the right choice
Haynes & Boone was the law firm that handled Kitty Hawk's first bankruptcy around 2000. They didn't represent the crewmembers. The crewmwmbers were trying to get ALPA on property, IBT tried to get their uninvited foot in the door, KH pilots had to form a non AFL-CIO inhouse union to call an election and then merged it with ALPA after a year.
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Rather than start a seperate topic, I thought I might include this in the general Atlas/Polar thread(please forgive the intrustion if not correct): Noticed there is a classified ad showing a
Station Manager for hire at Wilimington, OH. I have seen the ad under both Atlas and Polar. As ILN is the DHL hub, I assume thats where the flying will
come from, but the question is, who is operating the flights on behalf of DHL, Polar or Atlas??
Station Manager for hire at Wilimington, OH. I have seen the ad under both Atlas and Polar. As ILN is the DHL hub, I assume thats where the flying will
come from, but the question is, who is operating the flights on behalf of DHL, Polar or Atlas??
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Today, it's Atlas. Starting the end of October, Polar's entire fleet will be doing DHL, with two Atlas planes continuing DHL service. Noone knows who will be doing the ILN runs.
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Noticed that atlasforteamsters.com has a video on their site now from Local 1224 President Dave Ross at mms://208.9.199.45/ross_atlas_polar_2.wmv now. Their is also a letter at http://www.atlasforteamsters.com/doc...224_letter.pdf .
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Since a few of you seem to be in the loop thought I might get some answers here:
1) If Teamsters is voted in, what is the timeline for negotiations? Is there anything in the works referencing a CBA or do we just continue business as usual with delay after delay?
2) How are you as potential Teamsters addressing the real concern of the dry lease company that has been formed?
3) Besides being mad at ALPA, a lower monthly dues, and local support what does Teamsters have to offer? Yes, I've been on the website and I can't see a reason to vote Teamsters in when ALPA has finally got the ball rolling with negotiations. It seems we would be further delayed by switching unions and I'm sure everyone understands that to delay is only costing US . . . not the company . . . money.
To vote in Teamsters 'cause I'm mad at ALPA doesn't seem the road to go. I would like to get some insight from those that know. I see it as disaster to delay -- yet again -- a contract that is long overdue.
Facts only please when addressing the questions if you answer them.
1) If Teamsters is voted in, what is the timeline for negotiations? Is there anything in the works referencing a CBA or do we just continue business as usual with delay after delay?
2) How are you as potential Teamsters addressing the real concern of the dry lease company that has been formed?
3) Besides being mad at ALPA, a lower monthly dues, and local support what does Teamsters have to offer? Yes, I've been on the website and I can't see a reason to vote Teamsters in when ALPA has finally got the ball rolling with negotiations. It seems we would be further delayed by switching unions and I'm sure everyone understands that to delay is only costing US . . . not the company . . . money.
To vote in Teamsters 'cause I'm mad at ALPA doesn't seem the road to go. I would like to get some insight from those that know. I see it as disaster to delay -- yet again -- a contract that is long overdue.
Facts only please when addressing the questions if you answer them.
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Rumor on A.net has the UPS/DHL deal now collapsing, with the ILN
hub being closed and moved back to the old DHL hub at CVG. Have any
of you received crew bid sheets now for CVG instead of ILN????
hub being closed and moved back to the old DHL hub at CVG. Have any
of you received crew bid sheets now for CVG instead of ILN????
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1) If Teamsters is voted in, what is the timeline for negotiations? Is there anything in the works referencing a CBA or do we just continue business as usual with delay after delay?
3) Besides being mad at ALPA, a lower monthly dues, and local support what does Teamsters have to offer? Yes, I've been on the website and I can't see a reason to vote Teamsters in when ALPA has finally got the ball rolling with negotiations. It seems we would be further delayed by switching unions and I'm sure everyone understands that to delay is only costing US . . . not the company . . . money.
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Whaledriver -- thanks for the reply.
From what I've been told -- and this if directly from one of the negotiating team members -- the nine month clock to arbitration started when the seniority list was handed over. Therefore, if nothing is agreed to then it goes to arbitration on the joint CBA.
I dislike using the word "source" when giving information but that's what I have to do when he didn't give me permission to use his name.
I totally agree that these little meetings once a month aren't getting anywhere but again, I was told by a negotiating chairman that it's not going to matter -- unless of course Teamsters is voted in. He told me that they are counting on every Polar pilot voting no (which I don't see happening) and some of the Atlas pilots not backing up their change of representation. Thus, the failure of the 50% plus one vote needed to change.
I'm with Polar and still undecided . . .but leaning more and more towards Teamsters. And now with the rumor, which I hope is true, of the DHL/UPS deal being shot down there might be some light at the end of the tunnel that's not the damn train.
From what I've been told -- and this if directly from one of the negotiating team members -- the nine month clock to arbitration started when the seniority list was handed over. Therefore, if nothing is agreed to then it goes to arbitration on the joint CBA.
I dislike using the word "source" when giving information but that's what I have to do when he didn't give me permission to use his name.
I totally agree that these little meetings once a month aren't getting anywhere but again, I was told by a negotiating chairman that it's not going to matter -- unless of course Teamsters is voted in. He told me that they are counting on every Polar pilot voting no (which I don't see happening) and some of the Atlas pilots not backing up their change of representation. Thus, the failure of the 50% plus one vote needed to change.
I'm with Polar and still undecided . . .but leaning more and more towards Teamsters. And now with the rumor, which I hope is true, of the DHL/UPS deal being shot down there might be some light at the end of the tunnel that's not the damn train.
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sheep in Utah
Quote:
3) Besides being mad at ALPA, a lower monthly dues, and local support what does Teamsters have to offer? Yes, I've been on the website and I can't see a reason to vote Teamsters in when ALPA has finally got the ball rolling with negotiations. It seems we would be further delayed by switching unions and I'm sure everyone understands that to delay is only costing US . . . not the company . . . money. end quote
---
For 9 years Atlas pilots have been paying 2% for help in finding fair and adequate pilot representation. They have never recieved fair and adequate representation. Also, in every ALPA-influenced decision between Atlas and Polar, the Atlas pilots lost, like a red-haired stepchild. Although ALPA is capable of great things for pilots when facing the non-pilot world, ALPA does, and continues to, get an "F" grade for fairly settling in-house matters, and has put the ALPA stamp of approval on possibly the worst labor contract that has ever been foisted on a bunch of trusting, naive pilots.
The years of unfair or ambivalent ALPA has left Atlas pilots with a complete unwillingness to continue paying 2% tribute to ALPA. It is not that the Teamsters are so good, it is only that ALPA has burned a bridge, poisioned the well, and smells like a a rotting, fetid sheep carcass in the Utah desert. "Anything but ALPA" is a strong feeling in the Atlas ranks; Atlas pilots have never agreed on anything, and to get 90% approval (just getting more than 50% to even vote) is remarkable. So Atlas pilots voting for ALPA is like Nelson R. Mandella voting for a blond president of SA; not likely this decade.
3) Besides being mad at ALPA, a lower monthly dues, and local support what does Teamsters have to offer? Yes, I've been on the website and I can't see a reason to vote Teamsters in when ALPA has finally got the ball rolling with negotiations. It seems we would be further delayed by switching unions and I'm sure everyone understands that to delay is only costing US . . . not the company . . . money. end quote
---
For 9 years Atlas pilots have been paying 2% for help in finding fair and adequate pilot representation. They have never recieved fair and adequate representation. Also, in every ALPA-influenced decision between Atlas and Polar, the Atlas pilots lost, like a red-haired stepchild. Although ALPA is capable of great things for pilots when facing the non-pilot world, ALPA does, and continues to, get an "F" grade for fairly settling in-house matters, and has put the ALPA stamp of approval on possibly the worst labor contract that has ever been foisted on a bunch of trusting, naive pilots.
The years of unfair or ambivalent ALPA has left Atlas pilots with a complete unwillingness to continue paying 2% tribute to ALPA. It is not that the Teamsters are so good, it is only that ALPA has burned a bridge, poisioned the well, and smells like a a rotting, fetid sheep carcass in the Utah desert. "Anything but ALPA" is a strong feeling in the Atlas ranks; Atlas pilots have never agreed on anything, and to get 90% approval (just getting more than 50% to even vote) is remarkable. So Atlas pilots voting for ALPA is like Nelson R. Mandella voting for a blond president of SA; not likely this decade.
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Wow,....
GearDownFlaps20... you hit the nail on the head.
Insanity is often described as "trying the same damm thing, and expecting a different result". Well, ALPA has let us down, time and time again. I feel like Charlie Brown in A Peanuts Comic, with Lucy always pulling the football away at the last minute....Always promising not to. And Charlie is such a looser for believing she has changed.
Teamsters is a viable alternative. And before you can say, "They changed"[ALPA], ask yourself what their motive is... (A) Loss of dues?, or (B)Loss of face possibly?, or (C) Are they now trying to Right A Wrong?. Hmmm... I am going with A&B. Thats my guy feeling, and it is about time I began listening to it.
If I were a betting man, I would guess 95% of Atlas would vote IBT. I personally know of 2 who won't. Mabye there is hope for their lost souls...
Insanity is often described as "trying the same damm thing, and expecting a different result".
Well, ALPA has let us down, time and time again. I feel like Charlie Brown in A Peanuts Comic, with Lucy always pulling the football away at the last minute....Always promising not to. And Charlie is such a looser for believing she has changed. Teamsters is a viable alternative. And before you can say, "They changed"[ALPA], ask yourself what their motive is... (A) Loss of dues?, or (B)Loss of face possibly?, or (C) Are they now trying to Right A Wrong?. Hmmm... I am going with A&B. Thats my guy feeling, and it is about time I began listening to it.
If I were a betting man, I would guess 95% of Atlas would vote IBT. I personally know of 2 who won't. Mabye there is hope for their lost souls...
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Looks like there is going to be an open meeting in MIA on the 15 for Atlas and Polar alike. Info is on the 10-10-2008 message at http://atlasforteamsters.com. While I have noted that the Polar MEC prefers to crash other's meetings, every AAWW Holdings guy including the Polar membership is invited in this AAWW combined crew meeting for Teamsters.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 12th Oct 2008 at 06:52.
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With regards to the DHL/UPS deal, the latest info is that DHL is in much direr straits than originally thought. Therefore, UPS will also be doing DHL's international airlift to/from the US. UPS is going to accomplish this by purchasing the six 747-400s from Polar with the approval of DHL since they own 49% of Polar.