Atlas Polar

[clyde87]

I was actually going to respond and then thought better of it after noting that I was going to the http://www.atlasforteamsters.com site under Q's and A's, The Facts, Administrative, and Documents to get the answers to many of your questions.

If you mean the part that I read with all the vague answers with, what seemed the credibility of the "Rumor Board", then I've already read it. The questions asked were not answered.

I would think a more informed answer to your questions not address by those pages can be made to their questions email address on the Q's and A's page if it does not involve them repeating themselves.

Cool, the teamsters answer questions if it's not inconvenient for them. Just like I remember.

As to Netjets, you will have to ask them why they left. Just like you would have to ask why USAir left ALPA recently. Forgot how many thousands that was.

Good no call, followed by a distractor. I know being now 3 posts in, I'm either 1) up to no good and want to start an argument or 2) I'm a moron in your eyes, and that's fine, but let's have some real answers about your cause.

Like everyone else in the industry, I have friends that worked there. They left the IBT because the represenation level was not there, and they had no professional negotiator helping them during the last contract cycle. It is FAR more significant because that SINGLE company was the MAJORITY of the IBT Airline division membership.

Irbcases.org - don't know how to address that one just like I don't know how to address the past Federal investigation of ALPA President Prater for misuse of union funds for flight pay loss payments to some of his council members at pay rates in A/C they were not in and also their working on his election while being paid by the union under flight pay loss. I believe that is a no-no along with a few others things investigated. I don't know if that got dropped or just put on the back burner by the Feds.

I think a settlement, that even though it's not an admission of guilt, but looks alot like one, is lightyears different than an investigation. I'll even bet if the Prater investigation goes somewhere, I doubt there will be an independent review board required, or memebers permanently banned.

Some of what you asked administratively has not been done yet, let alone the fact that ALPA has not been decertified yet. One has to happen before the other can be completed. I believe it states local 1224 would carry out those admin functions until we are up and running. Elections determine some of the infrastructure you are asking about. Positions are similar to the ALPA structure but are not exactly the same. The Administrative Documents link can give you more on that in the bylaws and such.

See, such a vague answer does none of us any good. I'd figure if you want to organize, and vote in a new representation, as an established company that's been represented for years, you'd want to get your crap together right quick. Again, no worthwhile information was provided by the website or your answer.

Financial's I can't comment on to much. I can't even get that out of an established ALPA council and national without jumping through a bunch of hoops. I do understand ALPA is in the red though. Judging from all the new ways they are trying to increase dues i.e. the recent attempt to enforce paying dues on your 401k and the selective council to council funding cuts to the bone seem to reflect that. Let alone the ALPA staffing cuts over the last year.

Nothing wrong with jumping through hoops for an established system. I have no problem with that. Those are actual numbers. I'd expect the same should representation change. However, pointing out ALPA's glaring deficits in areas we all see everyday is just insulting. I am a member of ALPA. I understand the weaknesses. From my experience at both unions, the ALPA cuts in funding and staffing still have them ahead from the IBT airline division.

And of that 22% "gratuity" we send from the local to the int'l, about .0001% will come back in the form of the Trucker magazine. That's all we'll see from the Int'l.

I've lived through both systems. I can say with 100% certainty that alot of the "promises" will not come true. Until more questions are asked, and honest answers returned, I will refuse to change my stance.

Based on the closed thread that I read, prompting me to post my first post, and my actual experience with the IBT, I asked some questions.

Nitty, have you been an Airline Division Teamster? Have you ever filed a grievance as an Airline Division Teamster? Ever been through a contract negotiation process as an Airline Division Teamster? Ever had to fight a legal or medical issue as an Airline Division Teamster?

I have, or have had close friends who have, done all of those. I can tell you the "resources" were far less than promised. Go to www.republicpilots.org and ask some questions about legal representation. Big hornet's nest about that right now.

[nitty-gritty]

You seem pretty thin skinned for an ex IBT Airline Division member. I believe I answered in the same manner as how the questions were asked. Even made reference to whom you could get more detailed answers from. Usually I try to go to the source for answers to most things important. I might ask someone's opinion to get ideas from like on these boards, but I would not take it as law until proven out from a reliable source. I suggest everyone else do the same. Especially with the FAR's.

Your questions followed much of what the "August 21 Prater Letter to the Atlas / Polar groups" which contains a number of redirections to selective self serving responses to the Teamsters movement which just makes me suspicious of your intent. You being an ex IBT Airline Division member, you should already know the answer to a number of your questions since they deal with IBT hierarchy and administration. That just reinforces my suspicions of your intent here.

[Best Angle]

Nitty -

Now that I see how supicious you are of an ex Teamster, it makes me a bit suspicious of your intentions. I thought we were all in this together.

[clyde87]

You seem pretty thin skinned for an ex IBT Airline Division member.

If by "thin skinned", you mean not willing to listen to the propaganda machine, and actually ask questions with substance, then yes, I must admit I'm guilty.

I believe I answered in the same manner as how the questions were asked.

Specific questions and vague answers....the formula for bamboozling....

Even made reference to whom you could get more detailed answers from. Usually I try to go to the source for answers to most things important. I might ask someone's opinion to get ideas from like on these boards, but I would not take it as law until proven out from a reliable source. I suggest everyone else do the same. Especially with the FAR's.

The FAR reference is great. I really never thought of reading the book to get answers. Usually I just ask what certain FARs pertain to my job and use the pprune answers as gospel. The insult of acting like I don't know where to get answers is an awesome way to discredit my post. I could email them, but how could the answers be vetted. The website is a sales pitch. Actual 3rd party answers would probably be your best source.

Your questions followed much of what the "August 21 Prater Letter to the Atlas / Polar groups" which contains a number of redirections to selective self serving responses to the Teamsters movement which just makes me suspicious of your intent.

Just so you don't mix my words, I don't like ALPA. I just happen to think Teamsters are worse. My questions came directly from reading atlasforteamsters and things like the "factsheet" and "Q & A" areas.

I'm definately no ALPA fan. But if you think it's bad now, rue the day you become a Teamster Airline Division.

You being an ex IBT Airline Division member, you should already know the answer to a number of your questions since they deal with IBT hierarchy and administration. That just reinforces my suspicions of your intent here.

Me being an ex-IBT Airline Division member somehow reinforces your suspicions of my intent? My intent is to ensure that people who are voting have the real picture of life. Not a "grass is greener" version. BTW, that "greener grass" you're looking at is AstroTurf.

Suffice it to say here's my entire MO for my post: Yes, I'll agree with atlasforteamsters in that ALPA has serious flaws. That being said, atlasforteamsters does not represent a complete and true picture of the life I experienced under the IBT Airline division. Every single flaw ALPA has is magnified at IBT Airline Division.

Oh, nitty, how long were you an IBT Airline Division memeber? Thanks

[layinlow]

There are a lot of changes at Polar/Atlas and some pretty contentious negotiations, mergers, contracts, arbitration decisions, etc. Do you really want to change horses in the middle of the stream?

[Beaver_Driver]

There are a lot of changes at Polar/Atlas and some pretty contentious negotiations, mergers, contracts, arbitration decisions, etc. Do you really want to change horses in the middle of the stream?

WT. Why do you care?
Yes - our riderless horse is drowning.

[nitty-gritty]

Looks like we started writing at the same time. Noted you were online when I was writing last and didn't see that you got another post up after hitting the submit on mine.

Originally Posted by clyde87

Oh, nitty, how long were you an IBT Airline Division memeber?

6 years with IBT at two different carriers.

I have been directly active in ALPA on a number of levels for the last 9 years. More than long enough to know how we are being treated on a council to council level within ALPA.

======================================

It appears you are not looking for answers but more of a stage to broadcast your agenda. Knock yourself out. If you were looking for the answers, you would have communicated with the source (which obviously didn't happen considering your time between responses) instead of ranting here. Especially after being given the direction to go look for them from a live person(s) instead of a web site.

Originally Posted by Bestangle

Now that I see how supicious you are of an ex Teamster, it makes me a bit suspicious of your intentions. I thought we were all in this together.

Suspicious of his ultimate agenda and how it is being done under the guise of questions that he does not seem to follow up on to get the answers after being directed on how to. We have had on the Atlas side one guy that was being used as a tool for National cutting and pasting a number of unusually specific questions into his web board postings that were obviously given him to ask. Probably by National lawyers which didn't fit his style of writing and the cutting and pasting gave it away due to the font changes and inconsistent writing style in his posts. Everyone caught on to that.

I have not been hiding I'm pro Teamsters after spending a number of years attempting to work inside of the ALPA system to fix how we are treated. That didn't work along with a number of other guys doing the same and here we are moving on to the next step in life. Not too unlike a failed marriage. There is a point at which moving on is the only reasonable step.

Yes, we are all in this together and that will be reinforced when the single carrier determination comes out from the NMB.

[atlast]

Moving On...

On the money Nitty. We are simply moving on!

[Deltabravowhiskey]

Ball park figures but close enough to help clarify a few things. Everything is my opinion alone and may contain errors since this is mostly from memory.

1) Where is the proprosed budget of the local, which should include the following itemizations: total income as of today's membership, total dollar amount and percent of local monies to int'l, total dollar amount and percent of monies to lawyer (as a proposed standalone local one would assume they want their own full-time lawyer),

-Total income for the Atlas Local approx 1.4M to 1.6M per year.
-100% is payed directly to the local, ie 100% control of all funds.
-Approx 20% is payed to IBT.
-1.2M annually remains to fund the local.
-Staff will include Full time attoney, Negotiator, office staff operating in a dedicated place of business ("Local" office).
-All matters will be handled by the attorney, in other words if you have a problem each crewmember will work with a real attorney who will in turn handle the matter with a company representative.
-Balance of budget will go into a fund/reserve/war chest.

2) exact plans for loss of license/aeromedical team/aviation legal. I mean, God forbid, if I get hurt or violated, what EXACTLY will the teamsters do?

Those services are currently provided by an outside contractor who also provides the same exact services to Southwest Airlines. The same Loss of License, Aeromedical, Aviation legal can be had for approx $6.00 per crewmember per month... However, there are other providers which may be able to tailor a benefit package more in line with the scope of our international operations with greater coverage using existing recognized legal/insurance agencies that work on a contract basis for ALPA.

In a nut Shell, Teamsters will not provide these services just like ALPA does not provide these services. These services are provided by OUR local to OUR crewmembers with specific beneifts that match our specific needs.

3) exact structure of MEC and organized committees

-Board of directors (7 total, 6 voting, 1 tie-breaker).
-Committee structure is left to each local, more than likely there will be no change or modification other than incorporating new faces to represent both the ACMI and Scheduled aspects of our combined operation.

4) exact outline of what services are provided by the int'l for the dues money flowed uphill

-Access to the Western States Pension plan
-Access to additional legal staff to supplement the locals.
-Access to IBT resources in the event of a strike.
-A Union with a "Cargo Focus"
-A Union that will include non flight deck personal, Dispatchers, Mechanics, Loadmasters...Think big picture here.
-New resources will be announced which will cement the cargo industry and bolster the need for a cargo focused union.

5) names/resumes of all involved in proposed local, and each individual directly above, all the way to Hoffa

Does this mean you are throwing your name in the hat to run?

6) what about www.irbcases.org?

what about it? ALPA has a bunch of skeletons in their closet perhaps more than the IBT ever has. The difference is the IBT is working to clean house and fully supporting the move to build the Airline division into a major player in the industry.

7) What exact services from, and what monetary contribution to, Local 1224. Which I expect has their handsful with the great furloughs at that airline, and can they be expected to fulfill their obligation to us with such dire probelms at home? If so, are they foregoing their fudiciary responsibilities to their membership if they don't focus 100% of their effort during this time of intense hardship at their own airline?

Very good question!
-First we wait for the NMB.
-Once the NMB rules, that will determine the direction we proceed (single carrier status or not).
-Vote, IF IBT is selected then 1224 has promised to assist us in the transition to our own local.
-1224 is fully funded, they have cash reserves, Attorney's on staff and office staff able to handle the additional load during a 10-12 month transition to an independent local.
-The Legal/office staff are getting paid regardless so the only aspect we will need to pay for is the "consumables, phone, fax etc" aspects during the transition.
-As soon as the vote for IBT occurs we will be free to hire legal staff and office staff to assist in the transition until permanent staffing decisions can be made by the elected board of directors.

8) Why did NetJets leave teamsters(was the largest memebership in the airline division)? Why is there an uprising against IBT at RAH (2nd largest group in terms of memebership)?

NetJets made a decision to go independant, IBT did not fight it. They have the mass to run their own union, we don't. A lot was learned from how the NJ guys were treated, those issues if not already addressed will be addressed prior to our transition.

9) Why would our local recieve professional negotiators when none of the local 747 airlines did?

-Local 747 does however the issues has become a mini-ALPA. The staff is working for multiple carriers. When was the last time an ALPA negotiator sat in on a Polar or Atlas LOA negotiation to protect the CBA intent if ever?
-Under our Atlas/Polar local, we will hire and retain dedicated legal staff and negotiating staff to oversee and maintain the "directed focus" of our committees and leadership.

10) Most importantly, does the magazine subscription fulfill my montly mustache porn quota?

Does this mean you would be willing to step up and write a monthly pub for mailing to the crews?

DBW

[clyde87]

DBW,

Thank you for the time you took for thoughtful responses.

I was a ground-pounder IBT member prior to being an "Airline Division" member. If I didn't fly planes for a living, IBT is the way to go.

Like I've noted, and not to beat a dead horse, I was way less than pleased with the IBT. And I strongly feel if the main motivator is change for the sake of it, there are better ways to serve it.

Again...Thanks for a thoughtful and informational post.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

I still have my IBT pin from a few carriers ago. The IBT "fits" much better than does ALPA.

I completely understand the aprehension some folks may have with the IBT and the stories from the former Kalitta guys.

The one point that needs to be hammered home is that we are NOT going to be under 747. We are going to be under a clean slate Local, WE (Polar/Atlas) will have control over the direction of our representation which is 180 out from what we get today.

We will no longer have to beg for OUR money back from ALPA (much less borrow money or be directed on how to spend it). We approve our finances and determine how those resources are best applied. Think back to the reasons for the Boston Tea party. ALPA is King, didn't we do this before?

In fairness, ALPA does not nor have they ever understood this segment of our industry and yet they represent us...or do they even? All you have to do is read the Prater propoganda and you get the impression that Prater is being spoon fed what to say without a clue as to what the ramblings are about. Prater would not dare step into a room with our crews present and take questions about our situation. Im sure that unless he is reminded he wouldn't know who Polar or Atlas are.

What our crews need to understand is that if something isn't working "WE" will have the power to fix it. If we have an issue with one of our Aeromedical providers we have the power to switch providers. Don't like the legal advice, seek a new attorney or place one with specific experience needed for the situation on retainer etc.

Safety and engineering. Again just like Aeromedical and legal this too can be sourced out or placed on retainer. Many firms provide these services to members of the "ATA" and other partys with aviation related interests. When was the last time an airline failed to have top tier engineering support or specific proffessional advice during an investigation despite not being a member of "ALPA". ALPA just wants you to think they are the only game in town, YOUR dues money paid to them depends on that perception! And to clarify, several companies are already on retainer thru the IBT and are immediately available. We have the freedom to expand on those relationships as we see fit or circumstances dictate.

We also need to realize that every crewmember will have REAL legal representation in company matters. Imagine picking up the phone and speaking to a REAL attorney and getting REAL legal advice on company issues or conflicts. When was the last time a crewmember had ALPA legal go to bat for them much less call the company due to a contractual dispute or a chief pilot's interpretation gone bad?

The fact is this is going to happen. We want anybody that is willing to participate at any level to contact the organizers at www.atlasforteamsters.com Make sure you mention what area of expertise you may have, your willingness to particiate in our future is the key to our collective success.

DBW

[Furloughed]

Here's to hoping the ALPA logjam continues to stop the merger. Stripping pilots from their respective 121 certificates bodes ominously for the rest of us. As with American and the "B" scale - I'd hate to see what gets started at Atlas spread like a virus through the rest of the industry.

[dumbdumb]

Are you Nucking Futs???? Let the logjam continue????? You're crazy!!! There's absolutely nothing being resolved -- NOTHING!

Pay is way behind the curve so any raise we get will not even offset inflation. Let alone that negotiations are not even being done the way they should be. Yeah, talk for a few days have coffee and see you next month then have more coffee and see you later. Oh, the Holidays are here so let's postpone 'till after. It's time to start the bus -- even if it is the short one -- and get going enough is enough.

Polar crews getting ready to set up shop in ANC when more than likely there are enough combined crew members that live in ANC to support it.

And these are just two of the easy topics.

Last but not least . . . safety in numbers. The only thing I would like to see is if the Atlas certificate is sold then Atlas crews get first dibs on going if there's a choice and vice a versa for the Polar crews.

[L-38]

. . . safety in numbers. The only thing I would like to see is if the Atlas certificate is sold then Atlas crews get first dibs on going if there's a choice and vice a versa for the Polar crews.

Now here's a creative idea . .two separate but identical contracts, with two separate but combined seniority lists. We will call this a "bridged" contract. . .tied at the hip for labor clout and operating efficiency's, but with individual reversion rights for job protection!

This idea is outside the box, but so is management's convoluted proposal of one airline masquerading as two . . Fight fire with fire is the answer!

[nitty-gritty]

I remember something similar proposed union to union wise when the company was moving work back and fourth depending on who was in negotiations. A deal for guys being able to move from one side to the other with their seniority intact when the company moved the A/C and work.

I believe both times, it was shot down and/or altered after initial agreement due to one side saying "sure - only if you come over at the bottom of our list" after all the talking was done. So I doubt that any of it would be workable. I think some of that was in the transcripts that were posted some time back during the seniority merger arbitrations (HERE 1.8MB).

I'm curious how the Polar side thinks that the multi-certificate single pilot scoped group is any more or less secure than the current situation. I guess that is being referred to as being "stripped" from the certificate on one side here. We both have sooo many ways to have work moved at any given moment if current life has not been a indicator on both sides. I remember another guy showing off the Republic contract and their scope that kept the flying to them under the whole umbrella of companies under the holding company. Not having that on both Atlas and Polar sides is our big downfall on both the Atlas and Polar contracts. The Republic scope would probably be a better choice.

[L-38]

I believe . . it was shot down. . . due to one side saying "sure - only if you come over at the bottom. . "

A non-issue today, as a viable "like it or not" combined seniority list has since been begrudgingly agreed upon and/or will be enforced.

I'm curious how the Polar side thinks that the multi-certificate single pilot scoped group is any more or less secure than the current situation

Polar's perceived security in scope has yet to be proven worthless. . . If it does, then all Polar resistance is unnecessary, however if it does not . . . then this may be an answer.

[nitty-gritty]

I see the official word is out now that Jeff Carlson (formerly Spirit and NWA) is the VP of Flight Operations now replacing Mr. Cato.

Also noted was the official announcement that Polar will now only have ANC as base beginning Nov 1st. The remaining -200 will remain until the last part of Oct., then it will be gone along with the FE's being furloughed.

[Heilhaavir]

Thks nitty, any word on who will be the VP of Labor then, since the other JC was filling both positions?

[nitty-gritty]

Don't know yet. Waiting on pins and needles.

Not sure if they are going to step up from the ex lorenzo lieutenants like JC very much or just combine the positions of VP of Ops and HR as before.

[dumbdumb]

No update on the teamsters website but got a memo from the Polar MEC stating that the NMB decision should be out soon and which way they want us to vote.

Bueller? Any info?