Atlas Polar
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Originally Posted by L-38
The remaining 8/9 have now joined Polar's other furloughed FE's, and are now filling for unemployment. How they will factor in with the no bump / no flush clause of AAWH's combined FE list is yet to be determined (all were hired in July/ August/ September 1994).
The irony here, is that although now a furloughed Polar FE, I had actually operated Atlas's first after inaugural flight, when working for Tower Air back in February of 1993.
The irony here, is that although now a furloughed Polar FE, I had actually operated Atlas's first after inaugural flight, when working for Tower Air back in February of 1993.
And the Polar MEC was presented with the option to prevent those 8/9 from going to the street by allowing them to slide over to fill seats which needed to be filled at the time. The Atlas MEC was ready to agree to a temporary limited agreement in which those PFE's could have remained employed and on the property.
Regardless of the temporary conditions in that agreement until such time that a merged contract exists, the Polar MEC chose to put those PFE's on the street, why?
DBW
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Because that would have sold the other engineers down the river. So just as your supposedly MEC looks after the WHOLE group, so did ours.
Just like the B.S. about putting Polar F.O.'s on the Atlas side until the merged seniority list came into effect. It would have sold out some of the others.
Why those of you at Atlas have a problem with our MEC looking after the WHOLE group is incredible. It's not a sell your buddy down the street for short term gain. This arbitration is big and I'm on the position of believing that management lost. Otherwise, there would have been a simple letter stating the reasons why it was not ruled in the MEC's favor.
Well, I've given pprune a shot and now it's done. I got the information I needed for my vote and if you think I'm going to vote for leadership that will sell their workers for other gain you're mistaken. Seems to me some of you on the Atlas side better think about that as well.
So, thanks for the information and all the "finger pointing" but there's reasons Polar MEC has stood by themselves and taken heat. It's because they represent the WHOLE list and not just a "what can I get out this" mentality.
VOTE ALPA!!!!!!!!!!
Just like the B.S. about putting Polar F.O.'s on the Atlas side until the merged seniority list came into effect. It would have sold out some of the others.
Why those of you at Atlas have a problem with our MEC looking after the WHOLE group is incredible. It's not a sell your buddy down the street for short term gain. This arbitration is big and I'm on the position of believing that management lost. Otherwise, there would have been a simple letter stating the reasons why it was not ruled in the MEC's favor.
Well, I've given pprune a shot and now it's done. I got the information I needed for my vote and if you think I'm going to vote for leadership that will sell their workers for other gain you're mistaken. Seems to me some of you on the Atlas side better think about that as well.
So, thanks for the information and all the "finger pointing" but there's reasons Polar MEC has stood by themselves and taken heat. It's because they represent the WHOLE list and not just a "what can I get out this" mentality.
VOTE ALPA!!!!!!!!!!
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Because that would have sold the other engineers down the river. So just as your supposedly MEC looks after the WHOLE group, so did ours.
Instead your MEC fealt it was better to furlough everybody and hinge all the engineers future employment at Atlas on a single arbitration case that may or may not be heard or even ruled on?
A bird in hand...
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You have to remember that the reason the FEs are on the street is because Atlas is flying Polar flights. That is what the arbitrator has determined. Where it goes nobody knows. But there will be a very large monetary settlement into several millions of dollars. You also have to remember that the previous arbitration assumption was the company was correct in their position that they were not taking Polar flights, but, it depended upon this arbitration. We now know that the company was wrong. That may cause a lot more money to the company not to mention probably a longer time to settlement.
Until then it is all speculation what will happen down the road. I think much of this thread is ca-ca until we hear the final settlement and verdict. My personal opinion: The FEs will probably not come back, or at least a large portion of them. There are though, a lot of FEs senior to me and I am in the upper half of the merged seniority list so it might not be as many as you might think. Then there is the question of the Captain downgrades, those will have to be resolved. So there is a lot a water yet to go under the bridge before anyone can move on, as you say.
Until then it is all speculation what will happen down the road. I think much of this thread is ca-ca until we hear the final settlement and verdict. My personal opinion: The FEs will probably not come back, or at least a large portion of them. There are though, a lot of FEs senior to me and I am in the upper half of the merged seniority list so it might not be as many as you might think. Then there is the question of the Captain downgrades, those will have to be resolved. So there is a lot a water yet to go under the bridge before anyone can move on, as you say.
Last edited by layinlow; 5th Nov 2008 at 02:04. Reason: addition
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In any case, judging from your scope clause this all hangs from and current arbitrated interpretation and ruling. Polar will not be growing. The company will pay the judgment if it falls in the Polar crews favor. To the point of even hiring back some FE's if so called for in the interim, which I doubt that will happen.
Then the company will allow attrition to shrink Polar. Reassigning A/C dry leases to Atlas when staffing falls below manning ability by not hiring replacements at Polar. Then Atlas will fly those A/C under the PACW - DHL agreement. Bye-bye upgrades at Polar.
Don't forget that Atlas spent over 14 million just to create a non-union pilot replacement group (AACS now AABO) in STN and bought an almost bankrupt scheduled carrier (Polar) for about 25 million to siphon Atlas A/C and routes away from Atlas crews to bust the Atlas Pilots Union. Yep, you forgot were a number of those routes Polar flies came from didn't you. Another inconvient truth forgotten.
Your arbitration award costs may well just be peanuts in comparison.
Quite the Pyrrhic victory for you guys.
I think you should drag this out as much as you can. Fewer Polar guys to be incorporated that way. Especially with the "No Bump and Flush" decided upon already by the arbiter. That is turning out to be one of the few things Atlas crews got out of all of this. Keep up the great work. We are counting on it over here.
Then the company will allow attrition to shrink Polar. Reassigning A/C dry leases to Atlas when staffing falls below manning ability by not hiring replacements at Polar. Then Atlas will fly those A/C under the PACW - DHL agreement. Bye-bye upgrades at Polar.
Don't forget that Atlas spent over 14 million just to create a non-union pilot replacement group (AACS now AABO) in STN and bought an almost bankrupt scheduled carrier (Polar) for about 25 million to siphon Atlas A/C and routes away from Atlas crews to bust the Atlas Pilots Union. Yep, you forgot were a number of those routes Polar flies came from didn't you. Another inconvient truth forgotten.
Your arbitration award costs may well just be peanuts in comparison.
Quite the Pyrrhic victory for you guys.
I think you should drag this out as much as you can. Fewer Polar guys to be incorporated that way. Especially with the "No Bump and Flush" decided upon already by the arbiter. That is turning out to be one of the few things Atlas crews got out of all of this. Keep up the great work. We are counting on it over here.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 5th Nov 2008 at 04:21.
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Nitty
Here's the thing. Assuming you are correct, and I am sure you probably are to a point; the Polar FE's may not return. However, as long as Atlas is flying the Polar flights, the FE's would be drawing a salary for sitting at home, and the Captain downgrades would be paid a Captain's salary while sitting in the right seat (according to the CBA). So it isn't a one shot deal. I am sure the slugs at AAWWH will not stand for that. Like I said, ponificate all you want but would not it be better to see what the arbitrator decides and the AAWWH counter offer to the union? Speculation for speculation's sake ony fans the fires of discontent.
Here's the thing. Assuming you are correct, and I am sure you probably are to a point; the Polar FE's may not return. However, as long as Atlas is flying the Polar flights, the FE's would be drawing a salary for sitting at home, and the Captain downgrades would be paid a Captain's salary while sitting in the right seat (according to the CBA). So it isn't a one shot deal. I am sure the slugs at AAWWH will not stand for that. Like I said, ponificate all you want but would not it be better to see what the arbitrator decides and the AAWWH counter offer to the union? Speculation for speculation's sake ony fans the fires of discontent.
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Did I say "stole"? No, I didn't. I said "siphoned." I'm not so stupid to think that the pilot groups can whole heartedly control who gets what in the corporate shell games we are living out. I'm just tired of one group here thinking they are magnanimous in this when they are not. Selectively forgetting past events and choosing to act as the only ones harmed.
One would have to be incredibly naive to think that the ongoing Atlas labor negotiations at that time had nothing to do with the A/C and route transfers to Polar. Then again, that is easy to do when it is to your advantage. Maybe you should ask the same of the DHL flying that you are now performing that Northwest and ABX was doing. I'm sure that Polar will eventually claim that, as always, having been Polar's as all the other flying from the past such as ANZ and Qantas flying that I did back in 93 at Evergreen as you did with Atlas flying the same during your last strike.
Since you seem to admit the A/C transfers, I'll just mention the Atlas South American routes authorities that were flown by Polar as a starting point then later claimed as Polar's since the earth was formed despite the authority hardcopy I'm looking at now.
I guess this opens up of the floor again to the usual who has what despite my only desire to show that there is no one group innocent in this corporate shuffling to keep labor at bay.
One would have to be incredibly naive to think that the ongoing Atlas labor negotiations at that time had nothing to do with the A/C and route transfers to Polar. Then again, that is easy to do when it is to your advantage. Maybe you should ask the same of the DHL flying that you are now performing that Northwest and ABX was doing. I'm sure that Polar will eventually claim that, as always, having been Polar's as all the other flying from the past such as ANZ and Qantas flying that I did back in 93 at Evergreen as you did with Atlas flying the same during your last strike.
Since you seem to admit the A/C transfers, I'll just mention the Atlas South American routes authorities that were flown by Polar as a starting point then later claimed as Polar's since the earth was formed despite the authority hardcopy I'm looking at now.
I guess this opens up of the floor again to the usual who has what despite my only desire to show that there is no one group innocent in this corporate shuffling to keep labor at bay.
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That was one hell of a gripe, Nitty. To think that after all of these years you actually work for such a comingled company . . but you are working!
For years before the acquisition, I had operated Polar flights in and out of RMS on AMC charters along side with Atlas. But not today. Today Atlas fly's both - some on my be halve with Polar call signs.
For years before the acquisition, I had operated Polar flights in and out of RMS on AMC charters along side with Atlas. But not today. Today Atlas fly's both - some on my be halve with Polar call signs.
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"Siphoned flights"
OK, Nitty, "siphoned"
The only flight that I know of that Polar operated under Atlas authority was the South American stuff. When the Polar purchase happened, both Polar and Atlas had South American route authority. One had to be given up, so, of course, Cato gave up Polar's. When Atlas screwed up the sked, the customers wanted Polar back on it. We had to operate under Atlas authority because ours was cancelled.
So, I ask once again. Besides the South America case, what Atlas flying was "siphoned" to Polar?
The only flight that I know of that Polar operated under Atlas authority was the South American stuff. When the Polar purchase happened, both Polar and Atlas had South American route authority. One had to be given up, so, of course, Cato gave up Polar's. When Atlas screwed up the sked, the customers wanted Polar back on it. We had to operate under Atlas authority because ours was cancelled.
So, I ask once again. Besides the South America case, what Atlas flying was "siphoned" to Polar?
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Don't confuse us with facts
Best, don't confuse anybody with facts, Nitty and Dave have big plans, let both groups fall in line, besides it will take both groups dues just to feed fat bastard! If the Atlas guys want to see where there dues went no secret there!
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Figured it would come back to this typical BS and the "yea but" with the same crowd.
So continuing onto another front for the less brainwashed.
ALPA National had a conference call with the Atlas guys on the decertification. They spent a lot of time tap dancing around crewmember questions and not answering almost all of them in any convincing manner. Looks like Atlas for Teamsters info on their site must have been right. I would like to thank those crewmembers that participated and allowed National in their own words prove exactly what they have been doing to us. Resulting in this push for Atlas For Teamsters. I also found that they put most of the blame for the problems on Polar on that call. I'm certain if or when they have a conference call with the Polar membership that they will blame all the Atlas crews for all the problems in front of that audience.
Also of note:
The earlier Atlas VARS messages about protocols and National's promises that they will be done or forced have come to a lack of fruition. Not too unusual. National has rarely lived up to their promises to the Atlas council.
Some interesting reading for you.
November 5, 2008
Captain John Prater
Air Line Pilots Association
1625 Massachusetts Avenue N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036
Dear Captain Prater,
I am in receipt of your letter dated November 4, 2008 regarding the ongoing Atlas/Polar Single Contract Negotiations now taking place as earlier directed by the Association’s Executive Council, and more specifically the negotiations that were to have been completed in October regarding "protocols". Needless to say, the Atlas MEC is very disappointed that your office has again declined to direct the Polar Master Executive Council to engage in good faith negotiations regarding protocols, not withstanding the Executive Council's directive to do so as issued in September.
You will recall that following a meeting held on September 10, 2008 in Reston, VA the Association, the Polar MEC and the Atlas MEC agreed that during the October negotiations with the Company the Joint Negotiations Committee (JNC) would strive to complete the protocols as a prerequisite to continued negotiations toward the single collective bargaining agreement (SCBA). Additionally, as directed by the Executive Council, that protocol agreement would include provisions for binding interest arbitration. You further assured the Atlas MEC that if the Polar MEC did not comply you would take the necessary action to compel them to do so.
While the Atlas MEC's representatives to the JNC did meet with the Company in October to complete a protocol agreement, the Polar MEC Chairman directed that his representatives engage in no protocol discussions, in direct contravention of the Executive Council's and your directives.
Your letter of November 4th does nothing to remedy this situation. In fact, while it requests that the Atlas representatives continue protocol discussions with the Company, it does nothing to compel the Polar MEC's compliance. The Atlas representatives have no authority to bind the Polar representatives to any agreement that may be reached. And notwithstanding your very vague statement to the effect that you may or may not even sign such an agreement, even if you did, such an executed protocol agreement would have no binding affect on the Polar MEC.
The Atlas MEC and the Crewmembers we represent are committed to completing this merger. The infighting between these two crew forces has already been allowed to go on far too long. We have stood very patiently while the Polar MEC Chairman has done everything he could to prevent it, even while his own fleet and crew force were suffering the direct consequences of a shrinking airline, and even while he has attempted to move flying legitimately at Atlas to Polar to make up for his losses. It was our hope that after the Executive Council finally directed that the merged seniority list be presented to management last May (a full 18 months after Arbitrator Harris issued his decision), the last step of the process, negotiations for a single CBA could finally be completed. That, clearly, has turned out not to be the case.
Based on these circumstances and consistent with what I advised both you and the Executive Council on September 10, 2008, we do not believe that any further negotiations with the Company, either on protocols or the single CBA, are appropriate. This will remain our position until such time as either the Polar MEC agrees in writing to fully comply with the directives of the Executive Council to complete the merger, including agreement to interest arbitration should direct negotiations not result in a SCBA with the Company, or the Association directs them to do so.
Our patience has finally been exhausted.
Respectfully,
Royce W Setzer
AAI MEC Chairman
Cc:
AAI MEC
Bobb Henderson
Teresa Dodson
Bob Hester
ALPA Executive Council
Bruce York
I hope that the Polar guys let alone the Atlas guys that are getting tired of not getting anywhere remember that they can make a difference by voting Teamsters and Moving ON.
So continuing onto another front for the less brainwashed.
ALPA National had a conference call with the Atlas guys on the decertification. They spent a lot of time tap dancing around crewmember questions and not answering almost all of them in any convincing manner. Looks like Atlas for Teamsters info on their site must have been right. I would like to thank those crewmembers that participated and allowed National in their own words prove exactly what they have been doing to us. Resulting in this push for Atlas For Teamsters. I also found that they put most of the blame for the problems on Polar on that call. I'm certain if or when they have a conference call with the Polar membership that they will blame all the Atlas crews for all the problems in front of that audience.
Also of note:
The earlier Atlas VARS messages about protocols and National's promises that they will be done or forced have come to a lack of fruition. Not too unusual. National has rarely lived up to their promises to the Atlas council.
Some interesting reading for you.
Originally Posted by From Atlas MEC Chairman
November 5, 2008
Captain John Prater
Air Line Pilots Association
1625 Massachusetts Avenue N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036
Dear Captain Prater,
I am in receipt of your letter dated November 4, 2008 regarding the ongoing Atlas/Polar Single Contract Negotiations now taking place as earlier directed by the Association’s Executive Council, and more specifically the negotiations that were to have been completed in October regarding "protocols". Needless to say, the Atlas MEC is very disappointed that your office has again declined to direct the Polar Master Executive Council to engage in good faith negotiations regarding protocols, not withstanding the Executive Council's directive to do so as issued in September.
You will recall that following a meeting held on September 10, 2008 in Reston, VA the Association, the Polar MEC and the Atlas MEC agreed that during the October negotiations with the Company the Joint Negotiations Committee (JNC) would strive to complete the protocols as a prerequisite to continued negotiations toward the single collective bargaining agreement (SCBA). Additionally, as directed by the Executive Council, that protocol agreement would include provisions for binding interest arbitration. You further assured the Atlas MEC that if the Polar MEC did not comply you would take the necessary action to compel them to do so.
While the Atlas MEC's representatives to the JNC did meet with the Company in October to complete a protocol agreement, the Polar MEC Chairman directed that his representatives engage in no protocol discussions, in direct contravention of the Executive Council's and your directives.
Your letter of November 4th does nothing to remedy this situation. In fact, while it requests that the Atlas representatives continue protocol discussions with the Company, it does nothing to compel the Polar MEC's compliance. The Atlas representatives have no authority to bind the Polar representatives to any agreement that may be reached. And notwithstanding your very vague statement to the effect that you may or may not even sign such an agreement, even if you did, such an executed protocol agreement would have no binding affect on the Polar MEC.
The Atlas MEC and the Crewmembers we represent are committed to completing this merger. The infighting between these two crew forces has already been allowed to go on far too long. We have stood very patiently while the Polar MEC Chairman has done everything he could to prevent it, even while his own fleet and crew force were suffering the direct consequences of a shrinking airline, and even while he has attempted to move flying legitimately at Atlas to Polar to make up for his losses. It was our hope that after the Executive Council finally directed that the merged seniority list be presented to management last May (a full 18 months after Arbitrator Harris issued his decision), the last step of the process, negotiations for a single CBA could finally be completed. That, clearly, has turned out not to be the case.
Based on these circumstances and consistent with what I advised both you and the Executive Council on September 10, 2008, we do not believe that any further negotiations with the Company, either on protocols or the single CBA, are appropriate. This will remain our position until such time as either the Polar MEC agrees in writing to fully comply with the directives of the Executive Council to complete the merger, including agreement to interest arbitration should direct negotiations not result in a SCBA with the Company, or the Association directs them to do so.
Our patience has finally been exhausted.
Respectfully,
Royce W Setzer
AAI MEC Chairman
Cc:
AAI MEC
Bobb Henderson
Teresa Dodson
Bob Hester
ALPA Executive Council
Bruce York
I hope that the Polar guys let alone the Atlas guys that are getting tired of not getting anywhere remember that they can make a difference by voting Teamsters and Moving ON.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 6th Nov 2008 at 13:30.
Top Dog
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Did have a PO -400 operating under GT call sign a couple of weeks ago. Bagram-Diego Garcia-Singapore.
Its what I alluded to earlier on... put the load on an aircraft that makes sense to put it on, never mind its paint job.
Its what I alluded to earlier on... put the load on an aircraft that makes sense to put it on, never mind its paint job.
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Teamsters
If and when Teamsters is voted in, how does Teamsters feel about the aacs pilots? will they be integrated? can they even be part of Teamsters? how will they be integrated? I know some of them are interested as long as they can keep their seats, and pay which could undermine affiliation to a union. The way I see it Titan could be gearing up to be the next aacs! any comments?
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Titan is an airplane leasing company. Atlas has always had affiliations such as this. Atlas Leasing I, II, and III and some others. I doubt it will morph into a crew leasing company.
Atlas' position has always been that AACS/AABO are contract employees (they have their own separate contract) and any discussion about putting them on the merged list was improper. I have always been surprised that the militant Polar negotiating committee was not even interested in fighting the company on that one issue. Oh well - more water over the dam.
As far as AACS/AABO and the Teamsters goes, you would have to ask the teamsters folks. During the start of AACS, Bob Weatherly (VP ops Atlas) told us that EU law precluded the AACS crewmembers from being in an American Union. We were pretty sure at the time that this was BS but who knows.
www.atlasforteamsters.com
Atlas' position has always been that AACS/AABO are contract employees (they have their own separate contract) and any discussion about putting them on the merged list was improper. I have always been surprised that the militant Polar negotiating committee was not even interested in fighting the company on that one issue. Oh well - more water over the dam.
As far as AACS/AABO and the Teamsters goes, you would have to ask the teamsters folks. During the start of AACS, Bob Weatherly (VP ops Atlas) told us that EU law precluded the AACS crewmembers from being in an American Union. We were pretty sure at the time that this was BS but who knows.
www.atlasforteamsters.com
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Saying you doubt that Titan won't evolve into anything isn't good enough. It needs to be addressed in Scope -- regardless of what union we end up with. This is VERY serious stuff, gang.
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During the start of AACS, Bob Weatherly (VP ops Atlas) told us that EU law precluded the AACS crewmembers from being in an American Union. We were pretty sure at the time that this was BS but who knows.