Atlas Polar

[WhaleFR8]

by layinlow:
Single carrier, two different operating certificates, two different contracts. Will the IBT enforce the Polar contract until such time there is one contract and one crew force?

Of course they will. And, in fact, are required to by contract law.

[WhaleDriver]

Whale . . . . what a crock of "poop" to make a statement like that. Whatever happened to letting things go and moving on. So what -- now you want to threaten those of us that voted ALPA????

Seems to me this is one reply that needs to be documented to prove that it's unsafe to operate with you guys. I feel threatened and can't operate an aircraft safely if I'm always watching my back because I voted ALPA.

Maybe I voted a different way in our United States Election, too. Should I be watching my back on the street.

I think it's time for your nap and you need a time out. Oh and you're grounded, too. GROW UP!

Talk about needing a chill pill. Document all you like. Polar will be 150 out ot 850. You may not get it your way, deal with it.

[nitty-gritty]

Originally Posted by dumbdumb

-- now you want to threaten those of us that voted ALPA????

Seems to me this is one reply that needs to be documented to prove that it's unsafe to operate with you guys. I feel threatened and can't operate an aircraft safely if I'm always watching my back because I voted ALPA.

Maybe I voted a different way in our United States Election, too. Should I be watching my back on the street.

I think it's time for your nap and you need a time out. Oh and you're grounded, too. GROW UP!

It would be more fitting to be worried about the Polar guys threatening you or those in your group for voting IBT.

Polar is the one with the history of forming illegal lists for intimidation such as "the snake list", "the scab list" and others. The illegal scab list was even adjudicated because of Polars behavior with an alternative dispute finding by ALPA (Link located mid page here in PDF with ADR findings). The evidence was so strong, the judgement was in favor of the Atlas group even with ALPA President Prater in Polar's back pocket.

Having said that, the Polar crewmembers should feel safe in voting for IBT along with the Atlas guys. The election is done by the NMB and neither side gets to look at who voted for who. The individuals are only looked at when there is a dispute on if the person is qualified to vote under the rules.

[atlast]

Moving on...

I've never heard such unadulterated garbage!
Come the 19th WE will be our Union and that's the end of it.
Be it ALPA or IBT; Water under the bridge and leave your
pettyness out of the cockpit and bring your professionalism.

MOVE ON...

[nitty-gritty]

On another note, here is how the structure of the Atlas Worldwide for Teamsters will be post election.

In PDF

[clyde87]

▶

The IBT-AD has advised the Atlas/Polar flight crewmembers that they will be given the
option to form a new Local Union under the IBT-AD and to elect their own Local Union officers. In
order to ensure proper representation of the crewmembers pending the decision to form a new Local,
however, the IBT-AD has also determined that Teamsters Local 1224 will be assigned interim
representation responsibilities during the transition phase

▶

In light of the strained relationships between the Atlas and Polar units over the last
several years and the difficult relationships between the two units and the Company, we recommend
that the IBT-AD and Local 1224 maintain both the Atlas and Polar MECs in an advisory capacity
during the transition phase. Local 1224 would benefit greatly from the experience of the Advisory
MECs, and the Local’s ability to represent the crewmembers during the transition phase would be
bolstered by access to the MECs’ institutional knowledge. Local 1224 and the IBT-AD, of course,
would ensure that the two Advisory MECs work cooperatively and constructively in the interests of the
unit as a whole. The MECs would not have any formal authority to represent employees and would
defer to you and Local 1224 leadership on how best to effectuate a transition. That said, we
recommend that a representative from the Atlas/Polar unit be appointed as a “trustee” or ”chairman”
charged with helping steer the two Advisory MECs and being a point of contact with Local 1224
leadership.

▶

Finally, consideration must be given to the post-transition phase of the IBT-AD's
representation of the Atlas/Polar crewmembers through IBT Local 1224.. [b]We understand that after a
transition phase of eighteen to 36 months, the crewmembers will be given a choice: to (1) remain as
members of IBT Local 1224; or (2) form their own IBT-chartered Local Union and elect their own
Local Union officials.[b] If the crewmembers decide to take the latter course of action and decide to form
their own IBT Local Union, then the IBT-AD and Local 1224 should, prior to the transition phase,
work with the IBT General President and General Executive Board and their representations to secure a
new Local Union charter for them.

▶

In any event, regardless of whether the crewmembers ultimately decide to form their
own IBT Local Union, upon becoming Teamsters, [b]they will be afforded the opportunity to vote for
their own leadership to represent them on the Atlas/Polar property, consistent with IBT Local 1224’s
By-Laws.[b] And, of course, while they are members of Teamsters Local 1224, they will be afforded the
opportunity to fully participate in all of the affairs of that Local, consistent with the IBT Constitution

and Local 1224 By-Laws.

One sales point on the atlasforteamsters site is a local within 12 mos. The IBT says it will be a minimum of 18 mos up to 36!!! So 3 years minimum to even begin the 3 year process of negotiating a new CBA. Don't tell me a "merged" contract counts because we all know it's going to be arbitrated and stuck in our kiester. Kickass.

We will, sometime, be able to vote for our own representation in the local 1224. I have no idea when their officer's terms expire. I bet the 1224, with 1/2 it's membership disappearing will just roll over and let the group go form it's own local in 3 years.

The goodnews is the IBT will appoint a dictator over both MECs. Super.

kinda feels like I'm fixin' to check into the big house with this one.

[Beaver_Driver]

A lot of the time period depends on the level of involvement of the members. I suspect the lawyers who wrote the memo are figuring worst case - such as if we have to fight each other at every turn.

If we do what we should have done in the first place, work together for the betterment of all of us, instead of fighting about things we cannot change anyways, then I think the eight month figure is good. So it is kind of the choice of the members.

[clyde87]

A lot of the time period depends on the level of involvement of the members.

That's true. If the IBT wins the election, the window will be 18 to 36 months, dependant on the membership.

What is a lie is the atlasforteamsters said 12 mos.

So either atlasforteamsters group is lying, or the IBT issues directives from the international that can be ignored.

it cannot be a devisive issue, as the 1224 board will have control over the ONE union, our combined pilot group, per the class/craft resolution from the NMB. The ABX pilot-elected representatives will have control over our group. The budget. Which grievances they choose to take to arbitration.

I thought the whole "atlasforteamsters" concept was a stand-alone Local. In fact, it's not what we're getting. The reality sent down from the IBT is we WILL be attached to the 1224 for a minimum of 18 mos. That is what the memo said. Unless you're on the General Board for the IBT, BeaverDriver, your statement doesn't hold any factual water.

Let's look at the timeline that atlasforteamsters wishes. And I'll present it in the most conservative light, as things take time. It COULD get done sooner, but other than furloughs, what happens fast in aviation? Let alone legal issues.

Dec 19, 2008 IBT wins the election

Dec 20, 2008. All crewmembers with Legal or Medical processes with ALPA are tossed out to fend for themselves while things get "organized" - contact lists are made, passed out, the new service providers find out that we are infact teamsters. They have to wait until all the paper work is filed to work with the contract providers.

Sept 2009 Arbitirated contract is shoved down our throats with a 18 mos amendable date.

May 2010 earliest AAWH pilots can leave Local 1224 - which has the majority of membership as AAWH pilots.

March 2011 - contract amendable negotiations begin, also 1224 local has representative election. Earliest AAWH pilots can sit on the board.

may 2013 - no contract - as NMB figures show, an average of 3.5 years to amend an RLA contract. however, negotiations are sidelined as the promised "stand-alone" local is formed. New election for reps.


Nov 2013 negotiations resume - New negotiators start over

Nov 2016 TA is passed. Only 7 short years before a negotiated contract. 7 years living under the arbitrated (and we all know how arbitrations turn out. We get screwed everytime. Even a win is only a partial win in the grand scheme)

So if you can live for 7 years under the pay and work rules arbitrated for us, go for it.

[nitty-gritty]

Your flagrant use of "lie" is unfounded as much of your remaining suppositions.

The "12 months" was posted as what was understood at that time. It was the information that was available and at hand in the beginning. It may still be very true.

If you want to talk about "lies" then lets talk about the ALPA ones that have been founded and not "maybe's" on this PID that is going nowhere and Prater's lies on his commitments.

Your looking for absolutes from one side (Teamsters) and not putting the same standards of judgment to the current side in place (ALPA). The PID and time lines by ALPA are just a couple of fine examples on the ALPA side of the many they have lied about if you want to go down that path let alone the other documented ones.

I would go on with counters, but I just got my wakeup call for my DH.

[WhaleFR8]

The amount of time for Atlas to go on their own as their own local is only dependent on the amount of time it takes them hold elections and to raise enough money, through dues, to support hiring their own attorneys and their own staff. In todays economy with furloughs and downgrades, that might very well be 18 months. 12 months ago when the IBT move was first initiated it was most probably 8 months.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

From the standpoint of nothing being in place, I would agree that it could take two years to get a local up and running.

AtlasforTeamsters has put together the structure to permit the group(s) to hit the ground running greatly reducing the time frame after the vote.

8 months is EXTREMELY realistic given the foundation that has already been put into place. I would be very surprised to see the Atlas Local take more than 12 months to be fully operational, funded and staffed.

After the 19th I would hope some of the folks at Polar step up and become party to the transition. The current MEC's will only be advisory in nature (no official role or position), point is those who choose to join in and participate in the committees and as subject matter experts will be the ones with the ability to shape this Local moving forward.

DBW

[clyde87]

8 months is EXTREMELY realistic given the foundation that has already been put into place. I would be very surprised to see the Atlas Local take more than 12 months to be fully operational, funded and staffed.

So you're saying the info from the IBT is wrong. Or you're saying you're already trying to subvert the IBT's direction.

Your flagrant use of "lie" is unfounded as much of your remaining suppositions.

The "12 months" was posted as what was understood at that time. It was the information that was available and at hand in the beginning. It may still be very true.

If you want to talk about "lies" then lets talk about the ALPA ones that have been founded and not "maybe's" on this PID that is going nowhere and Prater's lies on his commitments.

Your looking for absolutes from one side (Teamsters) and not putting the same standards of judgment to the current side in place (ALPA). The PID and time lines by ALPA are just a couple of fine examples on the ALPA side of the many they have lied about if you want to go down that path let alone the other documented ones.

I would go on with counters, but I just got my wakeup call for my DH.

Nope, I think ALPA sucks, as I've posted before. I KNOW IBT sucks worse. Nothing more, nothing less. The information YOU posted contradicts the self-proclaimed "facts" from your group.

No one argues ALPA is great, good nor anything other than it is. What the argument is about is how bad the IBT sucks. I don't like ALPA. I HATE the teamsters.

All most people do is point out inconsitencies. You can't come in, post a statement that is completely different from what has been preached for the benefit of this proposed change, then say, "ALPA sucks, move on".

Everyone knows the state of the industry. For you to imply otherwise is nothing short of insulting. What is more insulting are the posts focused around how an independant local will be formed and all the "benefits" of such in a certain time frame. When an actual document comes out in the middle of the election spelling out a far different reality than the proposed fantasy, and you expect everyone to march like good little soldiers, you must use illicit substances.

If atlasforteamsters would have been forthright, and prior to the election pointed out this information, it might be a different story. Selling one theory, then an "official" transition document comes out is asinine, and typical teamster-imposed directives. You don't come up with a solid transition plan, have it reviewed by lawyers and ensure it complies with bylaws in a short time frame. That memo was well thought out and written. It's a shame that the truth wasn't known earlier.

Welcome to life as a memeber of the IBT. They'll sell one promise and deliver a different reality. How is the shift of positions and selling lies different? Because there is a horse on the logo, does that make it more palatable?

[Deltabravowhiskey]

That's true. If the IBT wins the election, the window will be 18 to 36 months, dependant on the membership.

What is a lie is the atlasforteamsters said 12 mos.

2 years have already elapsed in the formation of this Local. This not just starting on the 19th of December.

So either atlasforteamsters group is lying, or the IBT issues directives from the international that can be ignored.

No you are just uninformed. The letter serves as a template without consideration of what is currently in place. Given the ground work that has already been accomplished 8 months is very realistic at this point, and the Atlas Local is on scheduel to meet that goal.[/quote]

it cannot be a devisive issue, as the 1224 board will have control over the ONE union, our combined pilot group, per the class/craft resolution from the NMB. The ABX pilot-elected representatives will have control over our group. The budget. Which grievances they choose to take to arbitration.

Slow down...

Atlas and Polar will have complete control moving forward. ABX's structure will simply give us the initial structure required until we form our own, it really is that simple.

I thought the whole "atlasforteamsters" concept was a stand-alone Local. In fact, it's not what we're getting. The reality sent down from the IBT is we WILL be attached to the 1224 for a minimum of 18 mos. That is what the memo said. Unless you're on the General Board for the IBT, BeaverDriver, your statement doesn't hold any factual water.

In fact you are jumping to conclusions. Did you miss the part that this was a memo and not published policy? This is only a template again without any consideration being given to work already completed to form a local. Once elected leadership takes office, they will be presented with a ship rather than a set of plans to build a ship. AtlasforTeamsters is doing everything it can to provide that ship rather than having incoming leadership worry about building it, they will simply have to determine the course and direction to set sail. If that course and direction is a seperate Local it's a paper work shuffle at that point.

Let's look at the timeline that atlasforteamsters wishes. And I'll present it in the most conservative light, as things take time. It COULD get done sooner, but other than furloughs, what happens fast in aviation? Let alone legal issues.

Dec 19, 2008 IBT wins the election

If you were part of the transition in the past 2 years you would know that this is not something that has happened quickly or was it a spur of the moment decision.

Dec 20, 2008. All crewmembers with Legal or Medical processes with ALPA are tossed out to fend for themselves while things get "organized" - contact lists are made, passed out, the new service providers find out that we are infact teamsters. They have to wait until all the paper work is filed to work with the contract providers.

First off that is an out and out lie. The insurance providers are IN PLACE AND TAKE EFFECT AT MIDNIGHT ON THE 19th! NOBODY I repeat NOBODY WILL BE TOSSED OUT TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES! This includes Life insurance and Loss of License coverages at not change in cost or benefit! There will simply be a window that opens which will actually permit other crewmembers to get coverage, currently covered crewmembers will simply fill out application forms (insurance cannot be denied for those currently covered) and the new carrier will assume the policy.

Aeromedical too is in place and takes effect at Midnight on the 19th!

The only delay would be in the transfer of documentation. The new Aeroemedical service is ready to go and in place an ex FAA physician leads the medical group, they are backed by over 25 years of experience with the FAA...he and his entire staff will be working for all of us and bring to the table extensive networks and assets to support our crew force.

Sept 2009 Arbitirated contract is shoved down our throats with a 18 mos amendable date.

Once IBT is voted in on the 19th, an LOA will be submitted to the company to extend the PID. Also a transition period is allowed to provide a period of time for the new union to assume an active role in the negotiations. A gap negotiations committee is already in place and working on the openers after the initial transition window expires, no time has ever been wasted to maximize the negotiating effectiveness of the new bargaining agent.

May 2010 earliest AAWH pilots can leave Local 1224 - which has the majority of membership as AAWH pilots.

September/October (or there about) of 2009 and after a combined contract is in place the Atlas Local can review the options and make the decision to go forward as a stand alone Local.

March 2011 - contract amendable negotiations begin, also 1224 local has representative election. Earliest AAWH pilots can sit on the board.

At this time next year our combined group will be several months into the next term of our new contract. Amendable date TBA!

may 2013 - no contract - as NMB figures show, an average of 3.5 years to amend an RLA contract. however, negotiations are sidelined as the promised "stand-alone" local is formed. New election for reps.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Nov 2013 negotiations resume - New negotiators start over

Nov 2016 TA is passed. Only 7 short years before a negotiated contract. 7 years living under the arbitrated (and we all know how arbitrations turn out. We get screwed everytime. Even a win is only a partial win in the grand scheme)

So if you can live for 7 years under the pay and work rules arbitrated for us, go for it.

Again, you really have no idea what you are talking about!

DBW

[Best Angle]

Down the River

I figured out what DBW stands for;

Dave Bourne Worldwide

[nitty-gritty]

Sarcasm countering facts is a loser most of the time.

On a slightly different note, are the Polar MEC elections still going on?

[habibib]

Still wondering if anyone has heard any rumors of the number of pilot furloughs, I hear there will be 3 more Classics parked in ROW by 1-2-09.

[WhaleFR8]

While Atlas claims they don't staff a certain number of crews per airplane, in the last several years they have consistently staffed the airline with 9.5 Captains per airplane (classic and -400) with 12 F/Os per airplane for the classic and 14 F/O per airplane for the -400. If they park three classics I would expect the furloughs to be about 28 Captain downgrades pushing that many out the bottom.

BUT - there are faint rumors of getting (back??) at least one -400, which would equal about 24 crewmembers.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

ALPA decertified at Atlas/Polar

90.2% turnout
67.4% IBT
32.4% Alpa

www.atlasforteamsters.com

Congratulations!

DBW

[TheMessenger]

I think this will be a trend. ALPA is on the way out. Brace yourselves for more of this.

[N827TM]

Congratulations!! This issue with ALPA and Teamsters has finally have come to a rest... And the winner is.. Teamsters!