Atlas Polar

[WhaleDriver]

Habibib you are correct, Scope, Scope Scope. The arbitration just awarded is a perfect example. Thanks to the people who negotiated the Polar scope clause, the Polar MEC for not backing down to the company over the scope clause and ALPA who stuck with us, I am sure there will be 35 more votes for ALPA. But you must remember, with this group of yoyo's at Purchase, you may win a battle but you can lose the war. Don't get too cocky until the far lady sings.

Layin,
You need to actually read the findings, not listen to Bobb and Robin. The company won the scope part of this arbitration. I quote "Management did not violate Section 1.E.8 of the Labor agreement." If you take a moment and look, section 1 is your scope clause.

The winners were the FE's because of a combined seniority list. Nothing to do with SCOPE. The company violated section 22.A.1, which if you look, is Seniority. They violated section 22 by furloughing your Engineers out of seniority order, period.

In fact, this is exactly the opposite of your statement. It is a major loss for your scope provisions. Because of wording, about alliance flying, or whatever you wish to call it, Bloc was not convinced that some of the flying Atlas is doing, belongs to Polar. Bottom line, Bobb and gang failed to convince....period! The company dodged a major bullet.

[Beaver_Driver]

Actually 1E8 is not scope either. It is the "subcontracting" section of chapter one which, granted, is generally lumped in with scope. Remember too, section G, which is also lumped in with scope. It gives management the right to operate its business "including, without limitation, the right to: direct all employees; determine the appropriate number of employees; hire, promote and discharge; establish and enforce rules of conduct; maintain discipline and efficiency; introduce new equipment; determine the location(s) of the work force, operations and facilities; plan, direct and control operations; expand, limit or curtail operations when deemed advisable to do so; sell all or part of the business; sell or lease aircraft or facilities;…."

One has to wonder what will happen to the 37 FEs now that there are no airplanes for them to crew; and if the rest of the Polar crowd will be so happy with this award and the possible unintended consequences. Time will tell I guess.

[v1andgo]

Just think about it. The company subcontracts all Polar Flying to Atlas in order to furlough the entire seniority list.

[L-38]

One has to wonder what will happen to the 37 FEs now that there are no airplanes for them to crew

Maybe they will become cruise pilots on the -400.

[Beaver_Driver]

Hard to do that when you are based in NZIR with no gateway and no -400s to fly.

[Tiger Guy]

Tiger Guy

When we read Beaver and V1andgo posts, this what is refered to as
"The Brotherhood of Pilots" Atlas style .

[L-38]

Polar FE's becoming cruise pilots is not an original idea . . . During Polar's initial fabrication of it's CBA when it was first discussed back in 98' and 99', the Polar FE's were considered as possible -400 cruise pilots with the coming of Polar's -400's, then projected to be far off into the future.

With hazy recall, this was an additional reason as to why Polar's CBA designers had created Polar's "one" seniority list - that list was designed to save jobs . . . . and it did!

McMurdo would be a great place for a cold beer!

[Deltabravowhiskey]

AWARD

The grievance is granted in part and denied in part. Management

did not violate Section 1.E.8 of the Labro Agreement. Management

violated Section 22.A.1 and related sections of the Labor agreement by

furloughing Flight Engineers while retaining junior pilots. The F.E.'s

furloughed on July 1, 2007 are to be restored to the active seniority list

and made whole for losses incurred. The question of the appropriate
remedy for the individual F.E.'s is remanded to the parties for resolution.

My best guess...

The remedy since no seats exist for the FE's who are not making a move to a Pilot seat is a settlement that will end their employment with Atlas and Polar resulting in elimination of their positions on the seniority list.

The irony is that since the merger has not been consummated, they (the PO FE's) have no claim on the merged list since they will be terminated prior to a first copmbined contract.

DBW

[L-38]

What tree have you been sleeping under DBW? The company has attempted just that over the past few years (to eliminate Polar's FEs), but with disastrous results (for the company that is).

Polar's FEs were already listed on the merged seniority list (merged FE list), but they were listed as furloughed thus unable to bump and flush - however today the award says that they were furloughed in error.

As recent history has proven, these FE's will most likely be paid $$ to sit at home while awaiting the merger. At that time, AAWW may legitimately furlough - but within the constraint of the merged FE list, inclusive of the Atlas FE's.

. . . Or for a considerale $$ savings, Polar can make these senior airmen cruise pilots, thus being free today to furlough 30 of it's most junior FO's. This option may be most favored by the Altas group, as it would most likely ensure that no Atlas FE be otherwise displaced by a Polaroid.

[v1andgo]

Listen the PAC MEC flushed the brotherhood concept done the toilet year ago.

[geardownflaps20]

what's that smell?

something does not smell right here

how, in the reasoning of the arbitrator, is a company such as polar, supposed to buy new airplanes (or dry-lease) and remain competitive if they must pay someone to sit at home while there is no job anymore?

please educate me

if buggy-whip makers were union, does that mean that ford and chrysler would have to pay buggy-whip makers (with pay retro-active to 1897?) to stay at home until horse-drawn carriages come back in fashion?

i sincerely would appreciate a kind-hearted explanation

would the ruling stand if atlas were to immediately (now) dispose of all classics? these aircraft are not flying due to economic conditions today, and this could trigger that type of response from the management team

thanks

[Beaver_Driver]

When we read Beaver and V1andgo posts, this what is refered to as
"The Brotherhood of Pilots" Atlas style .

Nope - that was meant to be a comment on what this company managers are capable of. Nothing more.

Polar's FEs are already listed on the merged seniority list (merged FE list), but they are listed as furloughed with no bump no flush - however the award now says that they were furloughed in error.

As recent history has proven, these FE's will most likely be $$ paid to sit at home while awaiting the merger. At that time, AAWW may legitimately furlough - but within the constraint of the combined FE list.

And it would be easy enough for the company to bring them back, base them in LA and then when the merger does happen, since there are no classics in LA, to invoke the no-bump, no flush Harris award, and furlough them.

Or for less $$, Polar can make these senior airmen cruise pilots, and be free to furlough 30 of it's most junior FO's today.

There is no way in HELL that I would fly a -400 with a 250 hour, probably C172 airlines, FE in the seat. How many of the 37 actually have their license and type ratings? Do you think they would be willing to go through the Atlas training program? I seriously doubt this will happen.

[mustangsally]

From the outside, a question? How does a FE become qualified as a cruise pilot? Would that FE no have to have a commercial/instrument ticket and maybe a ATP? Some where in history did not the FE's with pilot tickets get offered window seats?

[L-38]

And it would be easy enough . . . base them in LA and then when the merger. . . invoke the no-bump, no flush Harris award, and furlough them

Did you not understand Mr Bloch's award, Beav? Polar FE's may not be furloughed out of seniority (from Polar's one list), regardless of assignment. . . The no-bump/no-flush only applies to otherwise furloughed FEs.

For Ms. Sally -

From the outside, a question? How does a FE become qualified . . . Some where in history did not the FE's with pilot tickets get offered window seats?

About five of Polar's 37 remaining FEs have adequate pilot certificates today (one even has a B-737 type rating). Polar did offer window seats to pilot FE's, but the company was selective, and only three or four FE's were ultimately accepted (leaving the five that remain FEs today). . . . Also, another five or six of the 37 Polar FE's, presently have better jobs and most likely won't be coming back.

The -400 cruise pilot program has been initiated with other (foreign?) airlines to save jobs, and I think that only basic certificates may be required . . . I also believe that indifference to job loss is another reason as to why America is going down the toilet - Today's corporate structure does not respect the value of saving a job!

[Beaver_Driver]

Have you not read the Merger Award Bill. Bloch's award does not vacate the Harris award thus:

Award
A. The Consolidated Lists
The pilot and flight engineer seniority lists of Atlas and Polar shall be merged in accordance with the above-stated Opinion. The merged Pilot Seniority List is Attachment A and the merged Flight Engineers Seniority List is Attachment B.

B. Conditions and Restrictions
No Bump, Flush or System Re-Bid. The implementation of the two consolidated lists shall [not] be cause for the displacement of any pilot or flight engineer from a Position (awarded status, equipment or domicile) he or she is holding.

If the Polar FEs are based in LAX (a Polar base) when the merger goes through and there are no classics in that base, which is currently the case, then they cannot "bump or flush" an Atlas FE out of his base. ie. they cannot go where there is no vacancy. Thus they will most likely be furloughed.

Look, I can empathize and totally understand the issues and problems. Unfortunately, Bobb and Robin were presented decent offers (twice) but in their haste to win this battle they forgot that they are fighting a war with many more bodies at stake. Bloch essentially told both parties to work it out themselves. This is a huge deal and does not bode well for the FEs. If I were you Bill I would not quit my FedEx job based on this award.

A "pilot" certificate will not allow you a window seat. One must have at least a commercial instrument which takes 250 hours at least. Then one must be able to pass the simulator training and check ride which is no different from that of any other FO and takes a whole lot more training than that which got them the 250 hours. That whole PFE to -400 cruise pilot is pure BS - and would most probably be negated by the FAA.

[L-38]

Once again, Beav . . . . The Polar FE's are unassigned and will have no base . They are now to be MADE WHOLE with ID's . They will be paid $$ to SIT AT HOME (just like they were when with the Holden award), and per Arbitrator Bloch - they are NOT and CANNOT be furloughed (unless Polar furloughs everybody).

That whole PFE to -400 cruise pilot is pure BS

It is a legitimate FAA / ICAO program that has been implemented with waiver (Qantas in US airspace is but one example).

. . . . and I do not work for FedEx, nor am I #%& Bill.

[Beaver_Driver]

The Polar FE's are unassigned and will have no base

Really, how long do you think that will last? Why do you think Atlas just opened up the LAX base again? I can guarantee you they will be assigned a base. And I bet it will be a base with no classics. And even if you are correct, with a no-bump, no-flush clause worded the way Harris worded it, there would have to be a vacancy at the base, for them to move into it. The Harris award said it all, once the merger is complete, they cannot bump an Atlas FE out of his base or seat. Bobb and Robin should have taken the company's deal. It would have preserved the Polar FEs jobs far longer than this will. Typical ALPA short term thinking.

Qantas is not a 121 airline. The FAA already has problems with FOs being cruise captains so I doubt you will see them allow a 250 hr wonder into a -400 position. Why do you think there is a 1500 time limit for an ATP?

L38, laynlow, fuloughfodder, robrilly, Capt Vac - all the same to me. You are all mouth pieces for Bobb and Robin. No thinking for yourselves, or even reading your contract for yourselves. Just regurgitate what Bobb tells you. Put his spin on it and it will look OK.

[nitty-gritty]

Speaking of arbitrated awards:

I heard that Polar's Beckman arbitration has been decided in favor of Atlas management. I believe that is the one over Polar crews jumpseating on Atlas Aircraft.

Has anyone on the Polar side mentioned this yet or can confirm it?

[Heilhaavir]

Correct nitty

[L-38]

Really, how long do you think that will last?

This dialogue is getting rather tiring Beaver. . . . Per Holden's award, Polar's disputed FE's were unbased and unassigned full time employees with full benefits' from July 1, 2006, until December 2006 (retro), thence continuing on until July 1,2007 (12 FE's excepted).

The recent Bloch award restores these unbased and unassigned full time FE employee's with full benefits' again, from July, 2007 until now (also retro), and they will most likely continue on as such until the merger.

As they are to be restored a second time since Polar initially gave up their classic's a few years ago, these airman will soon have been unbased and unassigned with full time pay for two years and five months!! . . . so you tell me, how long it will last!

Whether they operate LAX/ICN, or water the petunias at home, their pay $$ remains the same (of coarse added per diem is an exception)!

The Harris award said it all, once the merger is complete, they cannot bump an Atlas FE out of his base or seat.

Harris had said that this applies only to those that are furloughed . . . . and the merger will triger a fresh base bid for all.

There is no way in HELL that I would fly a -400 with a 250 hour, probably C172 airlines, FE in the seat

You would actually have a 4,000+/hr freight dog of international experience that knows his airline structure like the back of his hand, and who would be an expert with acft systems and procedures, company W&B, fueling and payload inspection. He would be a third set of eyes during the busy approach and landing phase, as well as a watchful "gate keeper" . . . . A relief pilot at the controls only when during the long enroute cruise phase, he is also an A&P with ability to sign off on RIA (required inspection authority) items if necessary and in a pinch.

Yes, he may stutter initially when giving a position report, but so what? He would only be used on -400 flights of more than 8 hrs, and then with at least two other type rated pilots aboard. . . not very much different than the way it has been done for the past billion years!