C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who is most aggrieved?
ACMS,
I do read what you have to say. I think you could post with a little less emotion to get your post across...what do they say "yelling abuse through a doorway will cause the door to close"...but never the less, I do read and understand what you have to say.
No matter how I dress it up, I have earnt more than you. I have only been here a year or so longer than you. My grievance...my option recompense was based on being an FO and due to personal circumstances my options were exercised around $10-11. Boo hoo I hear everyone say. Exactly. According to me I feel hard done by as, unlike 22N, my options covered less than 10% of my career losses due pay cuts. According to everyone else they say get on with life as you have had a good deal. WE are all aggrieved!
Just to clear up a misconception...A scale payrises haven't occurred for over a decade. The HDP payrise in 2001 was introduced because the company did NOT want to reverse a paycut already planned and put in place for Jul 1st 2001. The plan was that the HDP would wipe out the last of the A scale paycuts. This came about as they had made an embarrassingly big profit after justifying the paycuts due to poor financial conditions.
A scales did suffer big paycuts....period. B scales are underpaid....period. How does taking it out on each other help in anyway whatsoever?
Please just look at the deal....vote pragmatically or idealistically - your choice.
I do read what you have to say. I think you could post with a little less emotion to get your post across...what do they say "yelling abuse through a doorway will cause the door to close"...but never the less, I do read and understand what you have to say.
No matter how I dress it up, I have earnt more than you. I have only been here a year or so longer than you. My grievance...my option recompense was based on being an FO and due to personal circumstances my options were exercised around $10-11. Boo hoo I hear everyone say. Exactly. According to me I feel hard done by as, unlike 22N, my options covered less than 10% of my career losses due pay cuts. According to everyone else they say get on with life as you have had a good deal. WE are all aggrieved!
Just to clear up a misconception...A scale payrises haven't occurred for over a decade. The HDP payrise in 2001 was introduced because the company did NOT want to reverse a paycut already planned and put in place for Jul 1st 2001. The plan was that the HDP would wipe out the last of the A scale paycuts. This came about as they had made an embarrassingly big profit after justifying the paycuts due to poor financial conditions.
A scales did suffer big paycuts....period. B scales are underpaid....period. How does taking it out on each other help in anyway whatsoever?
Please just look at the deal....vote pragmatically or idealistically - your choice.
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 14th Aug 2007 at 02:35. Reason: Clarification and speelin
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Coast N.A.
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sellig ACMS
ACMS,
A bit arrogant assuming you know what I or anybody else would do, but I guess it fits. You are right about one thing, I'd sell your sorry pathetic, greedy B scale #$# down the river, to the lowest bidder. Wait, I stand corrected you already sold yourself to the lowest bidder didn't you. You are exactly why the company continues to win, its always me me me for you isn't it. Please do us all a favour and quit, go to KAL or some such place, I'm sure you can offer to do their jobs for less money.
A bit arrogant assuming you know what I or anybody else would do, but I guess it fits. You are right about one thing, I'd sell your sorry pathetic, greedy B scale #$# down the river, to the lowest bidder. Wait, I stand corrected you already sold yourself to the lowest bidder didn't you. You are exactly why the company continues to win, its always me me me for you isn't it. Please do us all a favour and quit, go to KAL or some such place, I'm sure you can offer to do their jobs for less money.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Coast N.A.
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To ALL
Dear ALL, (minus ACMS)
Let us all stick together. By our very make up we have many different agendas but we need to put that all aside. We can not sell others down the path for a short term personal benefit ( flying freight, extending on A scale, conditional raises, no back dating etc etc.) For once lets do the proper thing, VOTE NO. It is the no risk answer to this. Lets all vote no then continue on our present terms and conditions. None of us is going to die over that option and bonus, none of us will get screwed. We would put the ball back in the companies court and see what they do. We KNOW they need help in crewing, we KNOW they need to stop people leaving. When the company told the AOA that they would not consider a retroactive increase to July07 the GC should have got up and walked out. CX CAN NOT change our CoS without our agreement, so what if they "Impose" a pay raise, let them, that doesn't help their cause much. As members of the AOA we all need to make clear to our representatives what it is WE want, and how WE want them to react. No more "secret" talks, no more "selling" of a substandard deal that pits one group against another to the benefit of only one, CX. Please, everyone look at the big picture, stay together and vote NO.
Oh yes, ACMS you do what suits you, as you always seem to do.
Let us all stick together. By our very make up we have many different agendas but we need to put that all aside. We can not sell others down the path for a short term personal benefit ( flying freight, extending on A scale, conditional raises, no back dating etc etc.) For once lets do the proper thing, VOTE NO. It is the no risk answer to this. Lets all vote no then continue on our present terms and conditions. None of us is going to die over that option and bonus, none of us will get screwed. We would put the ball back in the companies court and see what they do. We KNOW they need help in crewing, we KNOW they need to stop people leaving. When the company told the AOA that they would not consider a retroactive increase to July07 the GC should have got up and walked out. CX CAN NOT change our CoS without our agreement, so what if they "Impose" a pay raise, let them, that doesn't help their cause much. As members of the AOA we all need to make clear to our representatives what it is WE want, and how WE want them to react. No more "secret" talks, no more "selling" of a substandard deal that pits one group against another to the benefit of only one, CX. Please, everyone look at the big picture, stay together and vote NO.
Oh yes, ACMS you do what suits you, as you always seem to do.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, seems to be the obvious answer. To most of us anyways. Why is it taking so long for some to realise that. Perhaps we are spending too much time berating each other. Please, let's move on!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unifed Pay Scale Means Precisely That.....UNIFIED !
A unified salary for all Officers.
Abolishment of A scale salaries and difference to be distributed as pay increase to all Officers on a unified B Scale pay salary.
Pay rates for appointments. Increments paid according to years in current Rank.
Training: +10%
Checking +20%
Management Appointments (For all appointments within FOP inclusive of DFO and subordinate positions in FOP management) +22.5%
Management bonuses forthwith ceased and replaced in entirety with profit share same as is currently payable to all CX employees.
No negotiation on retirement age until such time as all pilots (Freighters and Local employee contracts) and Management appointments are on the one unified pay scale including Housing allowance to all Hong Kong domiciled officers.
All pilots, flight engineers and simulator instructors are paid on a unified B scale rate and Conditions of Service contract.
Lets take a vote on this eh.
Abolishment of A scale salaries and difference to be distributed as pay increase to all Officers on a unified B Scale pay salary.
Pay rates for appointments. Increments paid according to years in current Rank.
Training: +10%
Checking +20%
Management Appointments (For all appointments within FOP inclusive of DFO and subordinate positions in FOP management) +22.5%
Management bonuses forthwith ceased and replaced in entirety with profit share same as is currently payable to all CX employees.
No negotiation on retirement age until such time as all pilots (Freighters and Local employee contracts) and Management appointments are on the one unified pay scale including Housing allowance to all Hong Kong domiciled officers.
All pilots, flight engineers and simulator instructors are paid on a unified B scale rate and Conditions of Service contract.
Lets take a vote on this eh.
Last edited by octanecolt; 14th Aug 2007 at 00:09. Reason: Spelling error
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree completely with BScaler's points here.... 14 years and the parity of B and A scales has not been achieved....and nor will it be likely achieved for another 14 years or more.... It's time for a new strategy.
"Bearing this in mind, I cannot see any justification for an increase in A-Scale remuneration at this time, until B-Scale reaches A-Scale salary scales. Note that I do not advocate a reduction in A-Scale pay, just a hold until B reaches A. It has been 14 years since the introduction of B-Scales and the 'advance A-Scales at all costs and eventually bring B up to A...' argument has run it's course and been found wanting. I believe, therefore, that the amount allocated to increasing A-Scale remuneration in this agreement should be applied to B-Scales first, in an effort to bring aircrew pay scales into line with each other, and then have the scales progress upwards together in unity. Any fair-minded A-Scale officer could not have any serious issue with this proposal, especially as A-Scale officers stand to gain 10 bonus years of employment;"
"Bearing this in mind, I cannot see any justification for an increase in A-Scale remuneration at this time, until B-Scale reaches A-Scale salary scales. Note that I do not advocate a reduction in A-Scale pay, just a hold until B reaches A. It has been 14 years since the introduction of B-Scales and the 'advance A-Scales at all costs and eventually bring B up to A...' argument has run it's course and been found wanting. I believe, therefore, that the amount allocated to increasing A-Scale remuneration in this agreement should be applied to B-Scales first, in an effort to bring aircrew pay scales into line with each other, and then have the scales progress upwards together in unity. Any fair-minded A-Scale officer could not have any serious issue with this proposal, especially as A-Scale officers stand to gain 10 bonus years of employment;"
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: www
Posts: 518
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you don't advance your own conditions by lowering those of the officers above you. Economics 101. What airline in the world pays its most senior aircrew 'less' money...? I don't want to commit my career to an airline that operates in that fashion.
To put the idiocy of your ideas into perspective, imagine you're a union officer with the American Airlines pilot union...and you just made that suggestion to the membership?
To put the idiocy of your ideas into perspective, imagine you're a union officer with the American Airlines pilot union...and you just made that suggestion to the membership?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Belgravia
Age: 71
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unified Payscales
Gentlemen,
Many OB (Organisational Behaviour) studies have shown that RELATIVE pay is far more important than ABSOLUTE pay. The village leader in Africa is envied by his subjects because he owns one pig more than everyone else. In RELATIVE terms he is rich and probably very contented, in ABSOLUTE terms (compared to us let's say) he is a poor man!
Here at Cathay there will never be harmony on the flightdeck until everyone is rewarded equally for doing the same job. Our B-scale CNs do as good a job of operating our aircraft safely as do our A-scalers; otherwise they wouldn't have passed our demanding command course. The benchmark used to be, 'would you be happy to put your family down the back with that guy in charge?' There is only ONE standard on our flightdecks and achieving and maintaining that standard should be rewarded by ONE payscale period. If there is any A-scale C&T out there who checks B-scale CNs and A-scale CNs to a different standard then please speak up. In my experience the C&T department don't expect a sub-standard performance from a B-scale CN because he is on a sub-standard award. Please tell me otherwise and I'll put 40% less effort into my next PC and Line Cx!
The removal of this inequality is what the AOA should be striving for and many A-scale CNs agree, but unfortunately they're not the ones sitting on the GC. CN1 on the seniority list should be our 'ground zero' and is where the A & B scale should merge. At the other end of the scale all future DEFOs should join on B-scale pax pay and conditions as they do today. Market forces (ie. inability to simultaneously recruit on different COS in the same base area) will force the company to abolish freighter scales and bring all FOs up onto the same scale. Voila! One unified FO scale (UFO!) and one unified CN scale. This SHOULD be the goal of the AOA negotiating committee and not the perpetuation of the inequality which we endure today and which has led to much destructive infighting. This is not 'pie in the sky' but it is achievable by simply voting NO.
Bypass pay is a 'red herring' - it is only paid for the period you are Cat A between assessment and command course and is currently 2-3mths. Hardly compensation for an extra 3-4 yrs in the RHS!
RA65 is a 'red herring' in HKG because your retirement age remains 55 if you elect to remain on COS99! The company CANNOT seriously be concerned about impending legislation change in HKG if RA55 will remain in place in our present contract.
So just vote NO and take a payrise if it is imposed. The FACA and the COS99 DEFO clause are our only trump cards, let's not trade them cheaply.
Remember there is NO later!
Many OB (Organisational Behaviour) studies have shown that RELATIVE pay is far more important than ABSOLUTE pay. The village leader in Africa is envied by his subjects because he owns one pig more than everyone else. In RELATIVE terms he is rich and probably very contented, in ABSOLUTE terms (compared to us let's say) he is a poor man!
Here at Cathay there will never be harmony on the flightdeck until everyone is rewarded equally for doing the same job. Our B-scale CNs do as good a job of operating our aircraft safely as do our A-scalers; otherwise they wouldn't have passed our demanding command course. The benchmark used to be, 'would you be happy to put your family down the back with that guy in charge?' There is only ONE standard on our flightdecks and achieving and maintaining that standard should be rewarded by ONE payscale period. If there is any A-scale C&T out there who checks B-scale CNs and A-scale CNs to a different standard then please speak up. In my experience the C&T department don't expect a sub-standard performance from a B-scale CN because he is on a sub-standard award. Please tell me otherwise and I'll put 40% less effort into my next PC and Line Cx!
The removal of this inequality is what the AOA should be striving for and many A-scale CNs agree, but unfortunately they're not the ones sitting on the GC. CN1 on the seniority list should be our 'ground zero' and is where the A & B scale should merge. At the other end of the scale all future DEFOs should join on B-scale pax pay and conditions as they do today. Market forces (ie. inability to simultaneously recruit on different COS in the same base area) will force the company to abolish freighter scales and bring all FOs up onto the same scale. Voila! One unified FO scale (UFO!) and one unified CN scale. This SHOULD be the goal of the AOA negotiating committee and not the perpetuation of the inequality which we endure today and which has led to much destructive infighting. This is not 'pie in the sky' but it is achievable by simply voting NO.
Bypass pay is a 'red herring' - it is only paid for the period you are Cat A between assessment and command course and is currently 2-3mths. Hardly compensation for an extra 3-4 yrs in the RHS!
RA65 is a 'red herring' in HKG because your retirement age remains 55 if you elect to remain on COS99! The company CANNOT seriously be concerned about impending legislation change in HKG if RA55 will remain in place in our present contract.
So just vote NO and take a payrise if it is imposed. The FACA and the COS99 DEFO clause are our only trump cards, let's not trade them cheaply.
Remember there is NO later!
Hey BOGRAT
My heart sings thinking you would read half a page of my crap to find the deliberate spelling mistake 
The company dazzles with insults and inuendo and whips your pants down while you're not looking....beware
The company dazzles with insults and inuendo and whips your pants down while you're not looking....beware
Solution For Acms
Just had a thought..Why don't all A-scalers resign at 55? That would leave you on the contract you signed when you joined(plus pay rises over your 14 years).
That way this pay offer would be in line with what you have been used to over 14 years (which you have obviously accepted as well).
Then you can plod along without all the A-scale bitching
I've re-read most of your posts and 99% is slagging A-scale....so what really is your argument here?
That someone who's been here longer gets paid more?Almost every airline has that policy otherwise why would anyone stay?You will also be able to work to 65 but you just want the A-scale guys to do that somewhere else..is that it?
Salaries will merge and when you get to my situation and come to a dead stop after 21 years you might reflect on what all your slagging of senior colleagues actually achieved for YOU.....F***all.
And I've still got 5 years to go to 55 ....and I WILL be leaving.
That way this pay offer would be in line with what you have been used to over 14 years (which you have obviously accepted as well).
Then you can plod along without all the A-scale bitching
I've re-read most of your posts and 99% is slagging A-scale....so what really is your argument here?
That someone who's been here longer gets paid more?Almost every airline has that policy otherwise why would anyone stay?You will also be able to work to 65 but you just want the A-scale guys to do that somewhere else..is that it?
Salaries will merge and when you get to my situation and come to a dead stop after 21 years you might reflect on what all your slagging of senior colleagues actually achieved for YOU.....F***all.
And I've still got 5 years to go to 55 ....and I WILL be leaving.
It's amazing how defensive you A scalers are of you salary, which by the way, you are signed on to receive only till 55.
Boy are you sensitive
ANSWER THIS: Why were 99% of you prepared to extend on basically B scale without the COS perks? You thought the offer was ok and accepted it (without the unions blessing I might add, and a few resigned to do it)
Now you MUST HAVE A scale past 55, as to you it's only fair.
I've suggested ( as have others ) a unified Pay scale after 55, you guys come back to the then current B scale ( todays B scale +15% ) and join the rest of us. And you'd get all the COS perks too.
A MUCH BETTER DEAL THAN YOU ALREADY ACCEPT TO FLY PAST 55.
So what would be wrong with that?
Boy are you sensitive
ANSWER THIS: Why were 99% of you prepared to extend on basically B scale without the COS perks? You thought the offer was ok and accepted it (without the unions blessing I might add, and a few resigned to do it)
Now you MUST HAVE A scale past 55, as to you it's only fair.
I've suggested ( as have others ) a unified Pay scale after 55, you guys come back to the then current B scale ( todays B scale +15% ) and join the rest of us. And you'd get all the COS perks too.
A MUCH BETTER DEAL THAN YOU ALREADY ACCEPT TO FLY PAST 55.
So what would be wrong with that?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: www
Posts: 518
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ACMS. You really are a piece of work! You seem to have this obsessive desire to see a 'lower' upper end of the salary scale. In case you haven't noticed, nearly all the worlds airlines are at 65, or soon will be. NONE of them pay their senior pilots less for the extra years they work....NONE. What exactly is your reasoning that would suggest that at CX, alone amongst all the worlds airlines, will be better off with a lower pay scale for the senior pilots.....of which you one day will be one yourself? How will that benefit YOU exactly?
Ps. You seem so sure of your postion, I am sure you will happily declare a pledge to not work for an A scale level of pay from 55 to 65....even if it was offered to you....? (needless to say, the obvious answer to this question reveals your deep hypocrisy).
ps. you say that the senior pilots 'agreed' to work to 55. That was because that was all that was on offer at the time. It is now going to be illegal to discriminate because of age, so the legal basis for signing the contract to 55 is null and void accordingly. Based on your logic, a slave in the 1800's should have remained a slave after emancipation because 'that was his status originally'....
Ps. You seem so sure of your postion, I am sure you will happily declare a pledge to not work for an A scale level of pay from 55 to 65....even if it was offered to you....? (needless to say, the obvious answer to this question reveals your deep hypocrisy).
ps. you say that the senior pilots 'agreed' to work to 55. That was because that was all that was on offer at the time. It is now going to be illegal to discriminate because of age, so the legal basis for signing the contract to 55 is null and void accordingly. Based on your logic, a slave in the 1800's should have remained a slave after emancipation because 'that was his status originally'....
Like I said. you lot are really sensitive.
B scales will never be offered A scale, if we were then I would take it, and you could keep yours to.
It would be fair for all, but it aint gunna happen.
But to suddenly offer you all a 30% pay rise after 55 whilst giving the great unwashed rest of us 3% stinks.
maybe I'm just bitter and twisted, probably.
But look at it our way, you guys get a nice little package and we getting very bloody little.
If the company was giving us a 15 or 20% pay rise then I could live with A scale after 55, but they're not and we B scalers continue to suffer.
B scales will never be offered A scale, if we were then I would take it, and you could keep yours to.
It would be fair for all, but it aint gunna happen.
But to suddenly offer you all a 30% pay rise after 55 whilst giving the great unwashed rest of us 3% stinks.
maybe I'm just bitter and twisted, probably.
But look at it our way, you guys get a nice little package and we getting very bloody little.
If the company was giving us a 15 or 20% pay rise then I could live with A scale after 55, but they're not and we B scalers continue to suffer.
Apple Tree Yard
Ah, no it’s not. Just because age discrimination laws may be introduced into HK doesn’t mean your CoS99 contract will be null and void. You can stay on CoS99 if you wish with a retirement age of 55 or transfer to CoS08 with a retirement age of 65. You will have a choice except if you are on a base when the basing companies are onshored.
It is now going to be illegal to discriminate because of age, so the legal basis for signing the contract to 55 is null and void accordingly.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To CXFlyer and ALL
There might be a risk in voting NO. The comapny can impose DEFO and if you read the details it's a much better offer than last year. They can impose pay raises but they might not be as "much" as offered as a punishment. Age 65, I am afraid, is inevitable in most if not all bases. Is it right that based guys can work to 65 and hong kong guys can't? So voting NO does not guarantee present terms forever.
Is CX really having trouble recruiting and are many people really leaving? I don't think so. All the hot air we see on PPrune and all those who say they are leaving is not born out by the facts I suggest.
The negotiators should not have walked out, this isn't a street market stall in BKK. Their job was to negotiate the best deal they could get and get it to the GC for our reps to decide what next.
And as for all the slagging off of "the AOA", remember we elected them even if only because we had no choice because noboby else wanted the job, please remember that it is the company's offer not the AOAs.
I wonder how many of opur learned readers of PPrune have actually read the detail before they blast off.
Is CX really having trouble recruiting and are many people really leaving? I don't think so. All the hot air we see on PPrune and all those who say they are leaving is not born out by the facts I suggest.
The negotiators should not have walked out, this isn't a street market stall in BKK. Their job was to negotiate the best deal they could get and get it to the GC for our reps to decide what next.
And as for all the slagging off of "the AOA", remember we elected them even if only because we had no choice because noboby else wanted the job, please remember that it is the company's offer not the AOAs.
I wonder how many of opur learned readers of PPrune have actually read the detail before they blast off.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: hong kong
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Acms You Moron
ACMS RUBBISH
"But to suddenly offer you all a 30% pay rise after 55 whilst giving the great unwashed rest of us 3% stinks.maybe I'm just bitter and twisted, probably. "
You are a bitter and twisted moron, there is no pay rise past 55 just increments if you have not topped out at that stage. You still fail to present any facts... just total rubbish. You must be a pain in the
to fly with.
and more dribble from ACMS
"If the company was giving us a 15 or 20% pay rise then I could live with A scale after 55, but they're not and we B scalers continue to suffer."
Well mate the bits of paper (not in front of me) I have state HKG B scale Capts 11.5-14.8%.The only people who suffer are those that read your badly researched numbers you throw around to suit your selfish self centred arguments. As some one else said you use the word me me me more than anyone. You buddy are getting pay rises and the right to work another 10 years, yet you highlight a 5% loss due travel fund changes but forget the rises you get.
"But to suddenly offer you all a 30% pay rise after 55 whilst giving the great unwashed rest of us 3% stinks.maybe I'm just bitter and twisted, probably. "
You are a bitter and twisted moron, there is no pay rise past 55 just increments if you have not topped out at that stage. You still fail to present any facts... just total rubbish. You must be a pain in the
to fly with.and more dribble from ACMS
"If the company was giving us a 15 or 20% pay rise then I could live with A scale after 55, but they're not and we B scalers continue to suffer."
Well mate the bits of paper (not in front of me) I have state HKG B scale Capts 11.5-14.8%.The only people who suffer are those that read your badly researched numbers you throw around to suit your selfish self centred arguments. As some one else said you use the word me me me more than anyone. You buddy are getting pay rises and the right to work another 10 years, yet you highlight a 5% loss due travel fund changes but forget the rises you get.
Last edited by CYRILJGROOVE; 14th Aug 2007 at 07:19. Reason: add
CYRIL.... You lot have ALREADY accepted C- Scales to extend. More than 50 so far. That is a contract you accepted ( without union blessing, infact quite a few resigned so they could extend )
post 55 you have just been given a 30% increase over WHAT YOU ALREADY ACCEPT.
You are the Moron.
Thank all your A scale brothers for setting the benchmark after 55 so far.
FACT: so far more than 50 A scalers accepted crap deals to stay, flying rubber dog **** outta Hong Kong
FACT: quite a few A scalers resigned from the union to do so
FACT: quite a few A scalers suddenly decided to commence Training to get offered an extension on C scales
They are well know facts.
How's about you answer my question from earlier.
post 55 you have just been given a 30% increase over WHAT YOU ALREADY ACCEPT.
You are the Moron.
Thank all your A scale brothers for setting the benchmark after 55 so far.
FACT: so far more than 50 A scalers accepted crap deals to stay, flying rubber dog **** outta Hong Kong
FACT: quite a few A scalers resigned from the union to do so
FACT: quite a few A scalers suddenly decided to commence Training to get offered an extension on C scales
They are well know facts.
How's about you answer my question from earlier.