C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
Join Date: Dec 2000
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NC, I agree with your post but you must agree that we do have some control over certain items. Such as ASL and the FACA. This is a huge thorn in CX's side IMO...is it not? We certainly frustrate management when we reject these offers and although they can implement most items...some would be a violation of HKG law should they change a contract without our approval.
I say it's time to frustrate them!
I say it's time to frustrate them!
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Industrial Update
As already reported by GMA the GC of the HKAOA has, on Tuesday of this week, voted not to support the deal negotiated between the Company and the AOA after 8 long weeks of hard work. This is frustrating for everyone involved especially as we were under the impression that the AOA team remained within the mandate set by the GC. It is also important to clarify that the GC has not turned down a Company proposal. It has turned down a negotiated settlement containing numerous proposals from both sides. We will obviously have to find out, at some point, where the AOA negotiating team exceeded its mandate and why the deal was not supported. In the meantime we are back to status quo.
As already reported by GMA the GC of the HKAOA has, on Tuesday of this week, voted not to support the deal negotiated between the Company and the AOA after 8 long weeks of hard work. This is frustrating for everyone involved especially as we were under the impression that the AOA team remained within the mandate set by the GC. It is also important to clarify that the GC has not turned down a Company proposal. It has turned down a negotiated settlement containing numerous proposals from both sides. We will obviously have to find out, at some point, where the AOA negotiating team exceeded its mandate and why the deal was not supported. In the meantime we are back to status quo.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Well CX Managers, you now see the real story on PPrune.
Over 21,000 pilots are watching your every move.
You will have to pay a premium again to attract pilots.
Which airline is going to CRACK first?
Hooray for this forum, the aviation world watches this
daily, all wondering where market forces are going.
Over 21,000 pilots are watching your every move.
You will have to pay a premium again to attract pilots.
Which airline is going to CRACK first?
Hooray for this forum, the aviation world watches this
daily, all wondering where market forces are going.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Storm in Jade Cargo cockpit
By Greg Knowler
Hong Kong - Shenzhen-based Jade Cargo International has effectively grounded two of its four B747 freighters as a shortage of pilots clamps down on operations.
The carrier, a joint venture between Shenzhen Airlines, Lufthansa cargo and a German investment house, has been forced to postpone the planned expansion of its services to Europe and the launch of services to the US.
"To run a 747 aircraft for 16 hours a day, an airline needs 18 or 19 pilots to be on the safe side," Reto Hunziker, Jade executive vice-president of sales and marketing, told Cargonews Asia. He said a pilot was allowed to fly 90 hours a month, which was just four flights to Europe.
Jade Cargo needs up to 64 more pilots, but cannot find any in China, and Chinese regulations make hiring foreign pilots difficult and expensive. "We do not have a single Chinese pilot. The mainland is protecting its crew and the Chinese airlines charge US$250,000 to release a pilot."
By Greg Knowler
Hong Kong - Shenzhen-based Jade Cargo International has effectively grounded two of its four B747 freighters as a shortage of pilots clamps down on operations.
The carrier, a joint venture between Shenzhen Airlines, Lufthansa cargo and a German investment house, has been forced to postpone the planned expansion of its services to Europe and the launch of services to the US.
"To run a 747 aircraft for 16 hours a day, an airline needs 18 or 19 pilots to be on the safe side," Reto Hunziker, Jade executive vice-president of sales and marketing, told Cargonews Asia. He said a pilot was allowed to fly 90 hours a month, which was just four flights to Europe.
Jade Cargo needs up to 64 more pilots, but cannot find any in China, and Chinese regulations make hiring foreign pilots difficult and expensive. "We do not have a single Chinese pilot. The mainland is protecting its crew and the Chinese airlines charge US$250,000 to release a pilot."
Join Date: Nov 1999
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There are things that can be done to throw a little sand in the wheels before calling for a strike, which can be problematic in Hong Kong. If we all opted out of flying the freighters, a significant chunk of the CX operation would be unable to function. We are entitled to refuse to fly the freighter as part of our agreement with the company. That the company has to use threats to get us into the freighters shows the extent of their problem. The company are desperate to get rid of the Freighter Crewing Agreement. Lets concentrate their minds and put a worthwhile price on that agreement.
Don't work G days unless the company is prepared to pay more for our sacrifice. G day flying should be a minimum amount with a multiplier for the hours flown in that day. If the company don't want to pay, I don't want to fly.
Don't work G days unless the company is prepared to pay more for our sacrifice. G day flying should be a minimum amount with a multiplier for the hours flown in that day. If the company don't want to pay, I don't want to fly.
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First company counter strike to our collective dummy spit over COS 08
NTC just out establishing HKG "C" Scale (previously C scale was only on bases):
Quote:
Therefore, it has been decided to open a Hong Kong Freighter base, which is available to all crew. It will comprise both B744F and B747F positions. Applications may be made with immediate effect.
Conditions of Service will be as follows:-
Salary will be paid in Hong Kong Dollars as per the attached scales. These scales have been calculated at the same percentage of B Scale as all other Freighter Scales (75% for FOs / FEs and 80%/85% for Captains).
Hong Kong based Freighter Crew are eligible for Annual Discretionary Bonus (thirteenth month), prorated for the time based in Hong Kong.
Local Terms apply. Thus Captains will receive a monthly special allowance of HK$24,000 (All Cat D local staff get this) in addition to salary, but no housing or children’s education allowance will be paid.
Other CoS and benefits will be as per Veta HKG local terms, white pages only.
Freighter Crew members are eligible to take a Hong Kong Freighter Base on completion of a period of two years on an overseas base after leaving Hong Kong. Crew members who have never been based in Hong Kong, and those currently based in HKG or who are working a HBR are immediately eligible to take a Hong Kong Freighter Base. The HBR system will continue in parallel with the Hong Kong Freighter Base for the medium term, but the aim is to phase out the HBR.
HBR is HKG Based Roster predominately used by commuting Aussies on a EUR base. At least it provides a Hotel in HKG so now that will be gone.
Therefore: Previously based employees will eventually be forced to HKG on Local terms. Nice precedent
NOTE: As I understand it under COS 08 UFO scales/COS this would not have been possible - full expat conditions would have applied to expatriate officers and therefore the CN & FE (same pay as F/O) side of this would probably not have been implemented as above either.
AOA - Over to you for the strategy please
NTC just out establishing HKG "C" Scale (previously C scale was only on bases):
Quote:
Therefore, it has been decided to open a Hong Kong Freighter base, which is available to all crew. It will comprise both B744F and B747F positions. Applications may be made with immediate effect.
Conditions of Service will be as follows:-
Salary will be paid in Hong Kong Dollars as per the attached scales. These scales have been calculated at the same percentage of B Scale as all other Freighter Scales (75% for FOs / FEs and 80%/85% for Captains).
Hong Kong based Freighter Crew are eligible for Annual Discretionary Bonus (thirteenth month), prorated for the time based in Hong Kong.
Local Terms apply. Thus Captains will receive a monthly special allowance of HK$24,000 (All Cat D local staff get this) in addition to salary, but no housing or children’s education allowance will be paid.
Other CoS and benefits will be as per Veta HKG local terms, white pages only.
Freighter Crew members are eligible to take a Hong Kong Freighter Base on completion of a period of two years on an overseas base after leaving Hong Kong. Crew members who have never been based in Hong Kong, and those currently based in HKG or who are working a HBR are immediately eligible to take a Hong Kong Freighter Base. The HBR system will continue in parallel with the Hong Kong Freighter Base for the medium term, but the aim is to phase out the HBR.
HBR is HKG Based Roster predominately used by commuting Aussies on a EUR base. At least it provides a Hotel in HKG so now that will be gone.
Therefore: Previously based employees will eventually be forced to HKG on Local terms. Nice precedent
NOTE: As I understand it under COS 08 UFO scales/COS this would not have been possible - full expat conditions would have applied to expatriate officers and therefore the CN & FE (same pay as F/O) side of this would probably not have been implemented as above either.
AOA - Over to you for the strategy please
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CoS 08 and HKG DEFOs
The plan was for no DEFOs in HKG until all current SOs had been upgraded. Now with no agreed CoS08 I guess there is nothing preventing them from recruiting DEFO's to HKG as they are with the freighter HKG basing.
FYI, UFO scale in HKG would have been around 75% of current B scale salaries(FO1-3) and then increasing to similar level as B scales by UFO5(SFO1 B scale).
FYI, UFO scale in HKG would have been around 75% of current B scale salaries(FO1-3) and then increasing to similar level as B scales by UFO5(SFO1 B scale).
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I think unless the next offer is considerably improved, and I'm quite sure it won't be, it needs to be handled exactly the same as the last offer. I'm sure the company will continue doing things like this to scare and frustrate people, but everyone has to remember that this is probably the strongest position we will be in for some time to come. If we are going to make acceptable gains, now is the time to do it.
box
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Well, I don't know how it would work exactly, but I'm guessing that if you are on this HK Freighter base, then when it comes time to transfer to the Pax fleet, you probably will be treated as a local. You will be based in HK already, so no housing allowance and no education on moving benefits.
You see, the only people on the freighter in HK right now are those with HK based rosters. Those people are still technically "based" in other ports, but they are rostered in and out of HK. So when they transfer, they get the whole shabang. Not so if you take this ****ty HK freigher base. You are better off going to Oasis if that is the case.
In fact, I make a proposal that we rename the HK Freighter Base scheme to the Oasis Crew Transfer Program, or OCTP. Basically, you get Cathay to pay for your rating (54.7 profit, why should anyone else pay it? besided, CX doesn't mind training people) and then you will be in HK to sort out the whole interview process with Oasis. Being based in HK gives you the opportunity to interview and press the flesh with the good people over at OHK in the Gayviator. Then you simply swap one uniform for the other. You go straight to making more than 10K US a month, and Cathay flips the bill.
You see, the only people on the freighter in HK right now are those with HK based rosters. Those people are still technically "based" in other ports, but they are rostered in and out of HK. So when they transfer, they get the whole shabang. Not so if you take this ****ty HK freigher base. You are better off going to Oasis if that is the case.
In fact, I make a proposal that we rename the HK Freighter Base scheme to the Oasis Crew Transfer Program, or OCTP. Basically, you get Cathay to pay for your rating (54.7 profit, why should anyone else pay it? besided, CX doesn't mind training people) and then you will be in HK to sort out the whole interview process with Oasis. Being based in HK gives you the opportunity to interview and press the flesh with the good people over at OHK in the Gayviator. Then you simply swap one uniform for the other. You go straight to making more than 10K US a month, and Cathay flips the bill.
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Does it not seem strange that CX wanted a vote on the COS08 package? It seems to me that management must have realised that there could not possibly have been a positive vote in favour. That being the case, one has to ask 'why'. Perhaps they wanted the AOA membership to register a 'NO' vote, so they could use that as an excuse to impelement more drastic COS changes, all the while blaming the aircrew for 'not acting in the best interests of the company'. A bit of a paranoia exercise I know...but it does not seem possible that they expected a YES vote...
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I think they are so arrogant they work out what they are going to do and then seek 'legitimacy' by getting AOA approval. They don't care if they get it but it would be nice to.
They are driven by the very complicated formula of Profit = Revenue - Costs. If you focus on costs enough you forget how to run a business. A payrise would have possibly led to lots of intangible goodwill, but that would have increased Costs you see. And increased costs means less bonus.
So instead, who is going to worry about fuel, OTP, 'helping out'. But thats ok, those increases in costs won't be associated with NR or Kim Joong Phil. Kim Joong Phil costs his salary many times over every year. Every stupid self-aggrandizing decision he makes results in people taking matters into their own hands. Every manager and pilot despises him and cannot believe his incompetence. But the important thing is the zoo keeper likes his 'manchesturian candidate'.
So whilst we have brilliant human resource experts like Kim Joong Phil and Dr do-little (NR) in charge, moronic offers will continue to be made to the AOA. There is nothing clever about this...they are just people in charge of other people's money - their bonus motive is in decreasing costs, not making more money for CX.
They are driven by the very complicated formula of Profit = Revenue - Costs. If you focus on costs enough you forget how to run a business. A payrise would have possibly led to lots of intangible goodwill, but that would have increased Costs you see. And increased costs means less bonus.
So instead, who is going to worry about fuel, OTP, 'helping out'. But thats ok, those increases in costs won't be associated with NR or Kim Joong Phil. Kim Joong Phil costs his salary many times over every year. Every stupid self-aggrandizing decision he makes results in people taking matters into their own hands. Every manager and pilot despises him and cannot believe his incompetence. But the important thing is the zoo keeper likes his 'manchesturian candidate'.
So whilst we have brilliant human resource experts like Kim Joong Phil and Dr do-little (NR) in charge, moronic offers will continue to be made to the AOA. There is nothing clever about this...they are just people in charge of other people's money - their bonus motive is in decreasing costs, not making more money for CX.
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ULRequalsSLEEP,
That is classic analysis and so spot on. For this company, it's all about maintaining control and only comparing apples to apples when it suits them. Real modern day man management and the concept of treating the troops well leading to better bottom line results is no where to be seen.
That is classic analysis and so spot on. For this company, it's all about maintaining control and only comparing apples to apples when it suits them. Real modern day man management and the concept of treating the troops well leading to better bottom line results is no where to be seen.