C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me
CYRIL: you still are not answering my question mate.
well?
ANSWER THIS: Why were 99% of you prepared to extend on basically B scale without the COS perks? You thought the offer was ok and accepted it
CYRIL:
which numbers would they be Cyril.
he only people who suffer are those that read your badly researched numbers you throw around to suit your selfish self centred arguments.
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You are starting to really bug me ACMS
So I am now the spokesmen for all the A scalers both in and out of the union, and I am supposed to know how they think. Oh just one thing, I did not know any one extended on C scales ,could you provide me where to find a hard copy of them, or are they something that just exist in your sick little head.
Now I am getting sucked in by you and you a not worth, your facts are wrong and you sprout dribble. I have better things to do and say, ACMS
Off and book off sick, you cannot be mentally fit to fly.
Now I am getting sucked in by you and you a not worth, your facts are wrong and you sprout dribble. I have better things to do and say, ACMS
Off and book off sick, you cannot be mentally fit to fly.
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ACMS,
I still want to see how much money you are at this moment ahead of what you signed on for. You've already admitted you lied about it but didn't give the answer. You claim to have worked out how far ahead A-Scalers are, and others have indicated that the shares were worth 2-3yrs salary, so why don't you work out how much an A-Scaler with 5,10,15 years to go will be below his original contracted amount.
Lots of A-scalers are very sympathetic to raising B-scales where possible but you only want to take from others. You are doing B-scalers great harm but appear to be too stupid to see it.
If you can't do the sums I suggest you go and get some medical help. You appear to really need it.
I still want to see how much money you are at this moment ahead of what you signed on for. You've already admitted you lied about it but didn't give the answer. You claim to have worked out how far ahead A-Scalers are, and others have indicated that the shares were worth 2-3yrs salary, so why don't you work out how much an A-Scaler with 5,10,15 years to go will be below his original contracted amount.
Lots of A-scalers are very sympathetic to raising B-scales where possible but you only want to take from others. You are doing B-scalers great harm but appear to be too stupid to see it.
If you can't do the sums I suggest you go and get some medical help. You appear to really need it.
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Back to the topic...
Really? It may have been mentioned at some point in time in HK, but does anybody know when the law is actually scheduled to be changed in HK? It may very well take several years before it is actually implemented. Who knows, maybe 5 years, maybe even 10. Why agree now to a major change that isn't even part of the law yet? Isn't premature? We may very well agree to it and then see several more years without any legislation coming into effect! Who knows what the HK/Beijing political agenda is?
It may be different with the bases; different countries have different laws. It of course suits the company to use discrimination laws from other countries to push issues on us. Why can’t we then use other countries laws to our advantage? I know a place or two where unions have much more legal power and where the right to strike is perfectly legal and accepted. Joining an established union is also compulsory upon beginning of employment in many countries. The pilot group (and AOA) could also use legislations in countries other than HK/China to our advantage. If they do it, why can't we?
The point is, there’s no law in HK preventing us from keeping RA55 yet. And any changes may very well be years away.
is now going to be illegal to discriminate because of age
It may be different with the bases; different countries have different laws. It of course suits the company to use discrimination laws from other countries to push issues on us. Why can’t we then use other countries laws to our advantage? I know a place or two where unions have much more legal power and where the right to strike is perfectly legal and accepted. Joining an established union is also compulsory upon beginning of employment in many countries. The pilot group (and AOA) could also use legislations in countries other than HK/China to our advantage. If they do it, why can't we?
The point is, there’s no law in HK preventing us from keeping RA55 yet. And any changes may very well be years away.
ACMS
The guys that retired at 55 and took **** pay to continue flying made their choice with what they were 'offered' at that time.As i explained ..alot of them had only been here a relatively short time because they were alot older when they joined..around 40 actually..that was what cx was all about way back then.If they wanted to remain in a familiar environment instead of taking orders from the koreans what's wrong with that?
The company didn't need them to stay and wouldn't pay them to extend unless they had a PhD in ass-kissing and a job on the 3rd floor or remained as check/trainers....but NOW THEY DO!
If a guy was happy on freighter pay working half way around the world from home on a crap base then that's his decision...just like you made yours.
The a-scale guys under 55 right now need to make a decision too and given our history of conflict with cx and what eventually happened some guys will be happy to REMAIN on their fixed pay but nobdy is getting a pay rise..let alone a 30% one...you're only comparing what some guys who left at 55 are paid on freighters and what guys under 55 would be on if they get to work past 55 now...it's different ball game.
I think while the a-scale salary remains then the union and b-scale have a benchmark to shoot at...as it is the company can hand you a crap deal...you'll sign up like you did 14 years ago..and keep bitching about it.
I paid my dues for 21 years...through times when it cost me 7500/month and i never bailed on the 49-ers...
What exactly is it that you have done in 14 years..for colleagues other than yourself...and if you hadn't turned up when you did...freighter pay wouldn't exist at all....
i hate to say it pal but if you don't like it...f**k off...a really stupid remark i know but it certainly applies to you.
The company didn't need them to stay and wouldn't pay them to extend unless they had a PhD in ass-kissing and a job on the 3rd floor or remained as check/trainers....but NOW THEY DO!
If a guy was happy on freighter pay working half way around the world from home on a crap base then that's his decision...just like you made yours.
The a-scale guys under 55 right now need to make a decision too and given our history of conflict with cx and what eventually happened some guys will be happy to REMAIN on their fixed pay but nobdy is getting a pay rise..let alone a 30% one...you're only comparing what some guys who left at 55 are paid on freighters and what guys under 55 would be on if they get to work past 55 now...it's different ball game.
I think while the a-scale salary remains then the union and b-scale have a benchmark to shoot at...as it is the company can hand you a crap deal...you'll sign up like you did 14 years ago..and keep bitching about it.
I paid my dues for 21 years...through times when it cost me 7500/month and i never bailed on the 49-ers...
What exactly is it that you have done in 14 years..for colleagues other than yourself...and if you hadn't turned up when you did...freighter pay wouldn't exist at all....
i hate to say it pal but if you don't like it...f**k off...a really stupid remark i know but it certainly applies to you.
CYRIL.......... I guess you started that site did you?
Since you seem to know what pay rises B scales have had in 14 years, go ahead tell us.
I can't give you a copy of the C scales mate..........Your A scale brothers extended on a myriad of different contracts and it would be impossible to label them with 1 name. I chose "c" scales to highlight the fact it was WORSE than B scales, sorry your little mind couldn't work that out.
BLUNDERBUS: so I joined years before ASL was "spun off" from CX, and I lost probably 2 years command time through it, so how was it my fault?
And I've never Bailed on the 49ers either, I stayed in the AOA and made the contributions. DID YOU?
And I voted against DEFO last year, DID YOU?
thought not
Since you seem to know what pay rises B scales have had in 14 years, go ahead tell us.
I can't give you a copy of the C scales mate..........Your A scale brothers extended on a myriad of different contracts and it would be impossible to label them with 1 name. I chose "c" scales to highlight the fact it was WORSE than B scales, sorry your little mind couldn't work that out.
BLUNDERBUS: so I joined years before ASL was "spun off" from CX, and I lost probably 2 years command time through it, so how was it my fault?
And I've never Bailed on the 49ers either, I stayed in the AOA and made the contributions. DID YOU?
And I voted against DEFO last year, DID YOU?
thought not
Last edited by ACMS; 14th Aug 2007 at 09:18.
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AOA announcement
Ladies and Gentlemen
COMPANY PROPOSALS ON PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE
After careful consideration of the recent pay and COS offer, the General Committee has by a majority voted against recommending ratification of the proposals.
The DFO has been informed of the outcome of the GC vote. We will advise you of any response in due course.
A more detailed explanation of the GC decision will follow shortly.
Regards
Steve Turner
President
14 August 2007
COMPANY PROPOSALS ON PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE
After careful consideration of the recent pay and COS offer, the General Committee has by a majority voted against recommending ratification of the proposals.
The DFO has been informed of the outcome of the GC vote. We will advise you of any response in due course.
A more detailed explanation of the GC decision will follow shortly.
Regards
Steve Turner
President
14 August 2007
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ACMS, Blunderbus, et al
Some facts.
I don't know how many have extended past 55 but it is not 99%. My 'guesstimate' is 50-70%.
The difference between B and A scales in HKG is up to 25% at junior ranks and back to 14% at the senior levels. ACMS, your '30%' is not too far from junior CN differences but remember that by the time many of these guys extended they were in the senior CN ranks and so the pay cut was closer to 14% not your 30% 'worse' conditions you keep quoting. The extendees on HKG terms are taking about a 14% + pay cut.
Many A scalers are in the same PF you are. They do not increase their PF by $800K(?) per annum.
Busy B, not a fair comparison saying that ACMS should compare his career earnings to what he joined on. Two reasons why: first, he joined on conditions such that with all the rises planned his salary will finally match 1992 A scale salary - so only 17 years behind us; second, when did you join? I joined in 92 and my salary has exceeded those numbers since I had payrises in 93/94/95. Apples with apples, ok!
ACMS - I know what you are getting at... a slinging match will not help your position.
I have not had a payrise since ...well, forever! But, in spite of that, I have been on the GC twice with the aim of getting B scales up to A scales because it isn't fair to have two people doing EXACTLY the same job with different salary in the same company.
Blunderbus et al....we are the high paid dinosaurs. We are less than 20% of the pilot body. Like me, most of the B scalers joined with very little understanding what they were getting into. Example - I saw that CX paid 90% of ESF school fees - I had no kids at the time so I thought, you ripper, almost free education. Reality, child #1 was at an international school where the school fees were double ESF rates....so I got 45% of the fees refunded and then paid tax...net position was that I paid 62% of the fees out of my pocket. Or how about anyone that joined since Jun 97(some are CNs already) that find out that the emergency lifesaving operation their wife or child had will cost them $70,000HKD as CX has coverage limits.....medical coverage looked good in the pamphlet!
Whilst I disagree with ACMS's numbers and his delivery, my moral support goes to him. I find it hard asking for sympathy that I exercised my CX options a little early when I also earn almost 25% more than my almost peer B scale colleagues!
I think it behooves every A scaler to say nothing of how bad things are for us. Expectations are expectations...nothing else. If we remained on the deal that we joined on then the average CN1 starting salary for A scales would be from $63K(1988) to $113K(1993). So yes both B and A scales have moved up. But arguing that B scalers have had a better run is akin to telling your maid in 1999 that she is only receiving a 1% paycut vs your 7% paycut because you are generous! Never mind that you earnt 20-40 times more than her.
I don't know how many have extended past 55 but it is not 99%. My 'guesstimate' is 50-70%.
The difference between B and A scales in HKG is up to 25% at junior ranks and back to 14% at the senior levels. ACMS, your '30%' is not too far from junior CN differences but remember that by the time many of these guys extended they were in the senior CN ranks and so the pay cut was closer to 14% not your 30% 'worse' conditions you keep quoting. The extendees on HKG terms are taking about a 14% + pay cut.
Many A scalers are in the same PF you are. They do not increase their PF by $800K(?) per annum.
Busy B, not a fair comparison saying that ACMS should compare his career earnings to what he joined on. Two reasons why: first, he joined on conditions such that with all the rises planned his salary will finally match 1992 A scale salary - so only 17 years behind us; second, when did you join? I joined in 92 and my salary has exceeded those numbers since I had payrises in 93/94/95. Apples with apples, ok!
ACMS - I know what you are getting at... a slinging match will not help your position.
I have not had a payrise since ...well, forever! But, in spite of that, I have been on the GC twice with the aim of getting B scales up to A scales because it isn't fair to have two people doing EXACTLY the same job with different salary in the same company.
Blunderbus et al....we are the high paid dinosaurs. We are less than 20% of the pilot body. Like me, most of the B scalers joined with very little understanding what they were getting into. Example - I saw that CX paid 90% of ESF school fees - I had no kids at the time so I thought, you ripper, almost free education. Reality, child #1 was at an international school where the school fees were double ESF rates....so I got 45% of the fees refunded and then paid tax...net position was that I paid 62% of the fees out of my pocket. Or how about anyone that joined since Jun 97(some are CNs already) that find out that the emergency lifesaving operation their wife or child had will cost them $70,000HKD as CX has coverage limits.....medical coverage looked good in the pamphlet!
Whilst I disagree with ACMS's numbers and his delivery, my moral support goes to him. I find it hard asking for sympathy that I exercised my CX options a little early when I also earn almost 25% more than my almost peer B scale colleagues!
I think it behooves every A scaler to say nothing of how bad things are for us. Expectations are expectations...nothing else. If we remained on the deal that we joined on then the average CN1 starting salary for A scales would be from $63K(1988) to $113K(1993). So yes both B and A scales have moved up. But arguing that B scalers have had a better run is akin to telling your maid in 1999 that she is only receiving a 1% paycut vs your 7% paycut because you are generous! Never mind that you earnt 20-40 times more than her.
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 14th Aug 2007 at 12:04. Reason: Spelliiiing
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Why I voted NO and why others voted YES
Being on the GC is a representative position. Due to the last decade's perception of intimidation, very few FOs and almost no SOs have the courage to join the GC. That is sad as ideally the GC should reflect the demographics of the membership. Instead you are stuck with many very senior pilots as many junior guys/gals feel too intimidated to join maybe?
So what do we do on the GC? We try to think FOR the membership, rather than thinking LIKE a member...we try to think what is right and fair. Sometimes that leads to controversial decisions such as the RP04 extension.
I can assure you there is no 'group think'. The RP04 extension and this recent company proposal were internally debated to death. So you can rest assured your view is probably being represented.
Whilst I agree in collaborative negotiation on contentious issues, with this proposal I could not agree to what I thought was an unfair discrimination of bypass pay vs domicile. Fortunately(IMO!) the GC has decided NOT to recommend this deal. I want to make something clear. If we(the GC) had voted as individuals with no regard to others who knows how the vote would have gone...maybe have got recommended because, to be honest, I personally have nothing to lose from the deal and most of the GC are in the same boat. But instead, we all try to work out for ourselves what is in the best interests of the membership. We often disagree on that...viva la democracy!
Those that voted to recommend the deal are as passionate for the deal as I was against it. Who was right? Who knows! I had the same view as the majority but that doesn't make me right, it just makes me a sheep;-)
So no matter what else comes out of this please rest assured there is passion, commitment and unselfishness acting on your behalf in the GC. If you don't believe me I am more than happy to give up my position to you;-)
clear as glass?
So what do we do on the GC? We try to think FOR the membership, rather than thinking LIKE a member...we try to think what is right and fair. Sometimes that leads to controversial decisions such as the RP04 extension.
I can assure you there is no 'group think'. The RP04 extension and this recent company proposal were internally debated to death. So you can rest assured your view is probably being represented.
Whilst I agree in collaborative negotiation on contentious issues, with this proposal I could not agree to what I thought was an unfair discrimination of bypass pay vs domicile. Fortunately(IMO!) the GC has decided NOT to recommend this deal. I want to make something clear. If we(the GC) had voted as individuals with no regard to others who knows how the vote would have gone...maybe have got recommended because, to be honest, I personally have nothing to lose from the deal and most of the GC are in the same boat. But instead, we all try to work out for ourselves what is in the best interests of the membership. We often disagree on that...viva la democracy!
Those that voted to recommend the deal are as passionate for the deal as I was against it. Who was right? Who knows! I had the same view as the majority but that doesn't make me right, it just makes me a sheep;-)
So no matter what else comes out of this please rest assured there is passion, commitment and unselfishness acting on your behalf in the GC. If you don't believe me I am more than happy to give up my position to you;-)
clear as glass?
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 14th Aug 2007 at 17:36.
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Thanks NC
Quite aside from the fact that I'm glad you and others on the GC voted against endorsing this "deal", I believe I can thank you on behalf of most CX PPRUNErs for your constant, patient, timely and informative posts.
I think I get more info from you than CX and the AOA combined!
Now excuse my ignorance but what is the next step? Is the ball now back in "their" court?
fdd
I think I get more info from you than CX and the AOA combined!
Now excuse my ignorance but what is the next step? Is the ball now back in "their" court?
fdd
NC:---- thanks for the post. Just a couple of points/questions if I may.
1/ it takes a B scale CN 17 years to get to year 1 A scale CN
2/ I would have thought that most HKG based A scalers would be still on their original P/Fund? Some may be back from a base I guess but most should be on the original. We know that it is around $800K per year of service for those guys.
3/ For some A scalers to come out and say they took up to a 28% paycut when they know full well the Company gave them stock options that today almost offset that pay cut is deception. it's not my fault they pulled the options early.
Anyway thanks for your input. I hope the negotiators can substantially improve the B scale offer, maybe up to A scale!! ( I know I'm dreaming )
Good luck to us all.
1/ it takes a B scale CN 17 years to get to year 1 A scale CN
2/ I would have thought that most HKG based A scalers would be still on their original P/Fund? Some may be back from a base I guess but most should be on the original. We know that it is around $800K per year of service for those guys.
3/ For some A scalers to come out and say they took up to a 28% paycut when they know full well the Company gave them stock options that today almost offset that pay cut is deception. it's not my fault they pulled the options early.
Anyway thanks for your input. I hope the negotiators can substantially improve the B scale offer, maybe up to A scale!! ( I know I'm dreaming )
Good luck to us all.
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Trojan Horse Warning
Computer security warning
Whilst I found this link highly amusing, my security package went beserk about the Trojan horse virus attached to opening the site.
Then again a Trojan horse is highly relevant when talking about discussions with the company.
Then again a Trojan horse is highly relevant when talking about discussions with the company.
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Everyone needs to chill out,take a breath,enjoy life,(Join the AOA);
& vote NO!, if required.
I went hiking today up High West.The view is fantastic.You can see GMA's new house in Bel Air from there!
& vote NO!, if required.
I went hiking today up High West.The view is fantastic.You can see GMA's new house in Bel Air from there!